I beg to move that the adjournment be taken at 12 o'clock to-night. I find that on the Order Paper to-day there is one measure which may take considerable time. It may be that I may have to ask that one particular item—No. 4 on the Order Paper—should be postponed, but it will not lose its prior place in respect of its postponement.
EXTENDED SITTING.
I desire to oppose this motion. The Minister has brought forward this motion to sit until twelve o'clock, following a good many warnings from different sides of the Dáil that the attempt to exhaust members who look after their business here is not conducive to proper legislative effort and is not satisfactory from any point of view. Some of us have been sitting on Bills since eleven o'clock this morning, and now it is expected that we shall continue to attend to the business of the Dáil until twelve o'clock to-night. We have conceded the desires of the Ministry for some time regarding sitting until ten o'clock or 10.30 p.m. Now we are asked to go a little further and continue until twelve o'clock, which means for many of us either considerable expense to reach home or a considerable journey on foot. The position of the business is entirely the fault of the Ministry. It should not be laid to the charge of the Dáil, and members of the Dáil should not be made to pay for the bad organisation, the lack of foresight and the unbusinesslike methods of the Ministry regarding the business of the House. We have said, since the list of thirty or forty Bills was placed before us, that it was asking too much that proper consideration be given to these Bills, in addition to consideration of the Estimates. The Bills have not had proper consideration. Several Bills have been passed which have not been examined; certainly they have not been discussed thoroughly. But inasmuch as they were more or less formal they have been allowed to pass, shall I say, on the faith the Dáil had in the Ministry's ability to bring forward Bills of a satisfactory kind regarding what might be said to be non-controversial questions. But we have before us quite a number of Bills of very considerable importance, requiring a great deal of examination. I say it is impossible for the Deputies to do the business, which we were sent here to do, effectively and efficiently if we are asked to do the work in a manner which the President now desires. If it is his wish that the Dáil should not take any notice of the Bills brought forward, I suggest he should tell us that. If, on the other hand, when he produces a Bill to the Dáil he expects we shall examine it and give consideration to it and discuss it, then I say he is not giving the Dáil an opportunity to do that work efficiently and properly. The Dáil has, I contend, been too generous to the Ministry in regard both to the Estimates and to the conduct of the business. Now the Ministry is coming forward and going to try our strength and our patience in a way which I say is not fair to the Dáil, and it is practically telling the country that it has no consideration at all for the representatives of the people sitting here.
We have been sent here to do the nation's work. We are quite willing to do it and to give our time and service to it. Remarks made from the other side of the House do not affect me in the least, because I know—I realised it for many a day— that the idea of those who represent certain people in the country—the Labour Party—is "ca'canny." It is their business to do as little as possible——
Withdraw that statement !
Several Labour Deputies rose.
Order.
Withdraw that statement.
Deputy O'Connor will please sit down. The statement the Deputy has made has nothing whatever to do with this debate, and he should withdraw it.
I withdraw it.
Before the Deputy proceeds, would he keep to the question under discussion as to whether the Dáil should sit until 12 o'clock or not. He should not arraign parties in the Dáil or in the State for their conduct.
We have been sent here to do the nation's work and no matter how long it takes we should be prepared to do it. Even though the hours are long and the work troublesome, it is our primary duty to do the work and it should be done. We have been sent here to do this work, and we are prepared to sit here until it is done.
How often have you been here?
Every day since I was elected.
What time do you come in—5 or 6 o'clock?
Deputy Davin will have to restrain himself.
I think somebody else will have to do that, too.
We will all have to restrain ourselves, and Deputy Davin is included in that. He can make a speech on the subject, but there is no necessity for him to shout remarks across the House.
I agree with my colleague, Deputy O'Connor, that we have been sent to do the nation's work. But we have been sent here to do the nation's work properly, and Deputies who have been sitting on committees since 10.30 this morning can hardly be expected to do good work up to midnight. A day of 13½ hours is too much for any man to keep his faculties at their best. I would like to say to the President, while I do not object to sitting late if absolutely necessary—I do not think he has proved necessity in this case—that I do object to a motion of this kind being brought forward without any notice whatever. If the President wishes me to sit late to-morrow I am prepared to do it, if he gives me notice now. Then I shall be enabled to make arrangements for sleeping in the city, and will be able to take up some luggage. But he gives me the option now of walking home eight miles or taking a taxi at a cost of 30s. I do not think that is a fair position in which to place Deputies. If notice were given, we could make arrangements. In this case, notice has not been given, and I would suggest, with all respect to the President, that by meeting the wishes of the House and sitting until say 10.30, he will get more business through, with good will, than he would by forcing us to sit until midnight.
I think the members of the different parties in this House have shown their anxiety to try and do the work of the nation as well as they can. I think Deputy Johnson's objection to this proposal does not arise at all from the strain that it puts upon him or upon other members—many of them equally strained by the work— but from the reflection that if he works that length of time he cannot give the same mental agility to the work at the end of day as at the beginning. With a great deal of regret, I make a proposal which may have been made before.
Although I am willing to sit late and give as much attention to the work as possible, I still think that if we keep on having late sittings we shall not do the work as well as we would like. My suggestion is that we should get the work better done if we were to decide, even with considerable regret, to postpone the consideration of the Estimates until the Autumn, and go on with the legislation which the President thinks necessary. Many of us would not like that. We would like to have the Estimates taken at once, but when they do come up we want to give as much consideration to them as we possibly can. I would suggest to the President that he should consider the matter, although I believe that he is really trying to please those who want the Estimates brought on at once. I think he would get better results if he decided to postpone the Estimates until the autumn and let us get on with the necessary legislation and get the Recess, which every Deputy really wants.
I do not believe that the President or the Government wants to treat the Dáil unfairly, but the effect is that we are being treated unfairly. It is quite a different matter for Deputies sitting on the Government benches. Deputy O'Connor can sit quietly there without either mental or physical effort. The Government and the Government's staff supply the effort. All they ask of Deputies is to sit quiet and say "Tá" or "Níl."
On a point of order, is the Deputy in order in impugning Deputies, as to whether or not they use the faculties they have?
I am not impugning anyone.
I do not think it is good manners on the part of the Deputy, to put it as mildly as I can. It might be put in some other way, if he wants to get on without interruptions. I am not going to stand it any more than anyone else. I will not be insulted by Deputy Gorey.
Deputies may have been sent here for various purposes, but they were not sent to insult one another. I take it that is accepted.
I have not insulted anyone.
The difficulty is that a Deputy is insulted when he thinks he is insulted. That is one definition of insult. You are insulted when you think you are insulted. If Deputy Davin thinks he is insulted by Deputy O'Connor, he is insulted. If Deputy Hughes thinks he is insulted by Deputy Gorey, he is insulted. That is the fact. It would be much better if, as I told Deputy O'Connor, we did not indulge in any reflections upon what other people in the Dáil think, or do, or what they are called upon to do. We are called upon to do the business, and if Deputy Gorey would confine himself to that, rather than to explaining, in what Deputy Hughes thinks is not sufficiently subtle English, what the Government Party has to do, it would be much better.
I was just pointing out that the Government——
Do not point it out any more.
That the Government has a big machine behind them in the whole Civil Service. We have not a Civil Service behind us. If we want to do justice to the people we represent, we must give proper examination to the Bills and other matters that come before us. We have not well-built machines to deal with them. We must deal with them ourselves. Anybody who does his work properly under the present conditions knows that the strain is too much, and we are not able to give anything like proper consideration to the Bills and other matters brought forward. Last Thursday night we sat here until after 12 o'clock to deal with a very important matter. Now it is suggested that we should sit again until 12 o'clock to-night. To continue that would be absolutely impossible. There is a limit to human endurance. We would not be able to do it. As Deputy Cooper has said, if we sit until 12 o'clock to-night, when we go out we find ourselves without trams or trains. It will be necessary for us, if this goes on, either to come and live in Dublin altogether or to have some means of conveyance provided. Although the President has a majority which can force us to do it, I appeal to him not to press this motion, and to have some consideration for Deputies who try to do their work.
I would ask the President to bear in mind that those of us who have tried to do our work conscientiously, and have sat throughout all the debates since we were sent here, except when prevented by illness, are entitled to some consideration. Ministers and others on the Government Benches have at their disposal a huge machine. They have officials who are paid for keeping constituents from seeing them. We have to go out after our work to see people who come up here to see us. Another matter that the President should realise is, that the ordinary Deputy, if he wants to do his work conscientiously towards the people who elected him, has to deal with his correspondence. Those of us who sit on these Benches have not paid permanent officials and typists to answer communications for us. We have to go to Government Buildings, Portobello Barracks, and other places, in order to interview officials so as to be able to answer our communications. Some allowance must be made for work of that kind, which does not fall to the Ministers. I may have got up and called upon a Deputy to withdraw, but I bow to the ruling of the Ceann Comhairle in that matter. It is, however, very hard on a Deputy who has endeavoured to do his work conscientiously to have people lecturing him who do not, perhaps, put in the same amount of work. I guarantee to Deputy O'Connor that I do as good work as he does, and that I have been in the Dáil oftener than he has. I come in here at three o'clock every day.
Since I have been elected——
Deputy O'Connor must sit down. Deputy O'Connor began this matter and he can say no more about it.
I would suggest to the Minister in charge of the Licensing Bill that he should postpone consideration of it until the autumn. It is not a very important measure. The people have carried on with the present licensing legislation for a number of years, and they could go on for another month or two with the existing legislation, or even for another twelve months. I would suggest that the Minister should lighten the burden of legislation by throwing that Bill overboard or postponing it until after the Recess. That would, to a certain extent, solve the problem that is being discussed now for the last half hour.
I was going to make a suggestion which might get over the difficulty. We have been in the habit of adjourning for three-quarters of an hour for tea. Last night the adjournment extended to one-and-a-half hours because there was no quorum. I suggest that instead of sitting until twelve o'clock we should sit until 10.30 without any adjournment, and let the Whips of the different Parties make arrangements so that Deputies can get their tea, while leaving a sufficient number present to form a quorum to carry on the business. I think that would get over the difficulty and satisfy everybody. Of course, I know that some Deputies like to get away and get their tea comfortably, but I suggest that this would get over the difficulty and prevent any loss of time.
I wanted to make a counter suggestion to Deputy White's, and that is that the people who have put down eighty-one amendments to the Intoxicating Liquor Bill might very well consult as to how that number could be very considerably reduced. It seems to me there is a good deal of over-lapping in the amendments, and that with a little intelligent co-operation between those who put down amendments the number could be at least halved.
I think the President must realise that there is a pretty general feeling on all sides of the Dáil against his motion that we sit late to-night. There is very little use in apportioning blame for what has occurred, although we might say that the real difficulty has arisen from the Government's anxiety to rush all their legislation into the first and second year of their life. It would look that way, in any case. I think it is not good for legislation, it is not good for the country, that Bills should pass through the Dáil without full consideration, or with very little consideration. It is not good for the Government themselves, although they are acting as if they appeared to wish that that should happen. I think it is not good that that should happen. I think the suggestion which has been made by Deputy Johnson, and which has been echoed by other Deputies is a very reasonable one in the circumstances. Surely, a person who is working the whole day up to 10.30 is not physically able to do useful work after that time, and I think that the President would be well advised if he took account of the views which have been just expressed, that we should sit until 10.30 p.m., and continue as we have been doing for some time past.
I do not think it would be just to the Dáil that the President should press that we should sit until 12 o'clock to-night, or any other night. I, for one, must say that I have sympathy with Deputy Johnson, for whoever may have taken charge of measures on the Government side of the Dáil, Deputy Johnson and some other Deputies have sat and discussed every measure that came up, no matter from what Government Department. The Government Benches may change, or swop horses, if you like to put it that way, but Deputies on the other side of the Dáil have to sit and examine every measure that comes from the Government side. Deputy Johnson and other Deputies sat on a Committee which sat at 11 o'clock this morning, they will have to sit again at 11 o'clock to-morrow morning, and if they are to be expected to sit till 12 o'clock at night the work cannot be done as it ought to be. It would be better to leave work undone than to have it badly done. That would be the result of the effort that the President expects us to make, and I think the President would be very unwise to press it.
In order that no Party in the Dáil may be found silent on this mater, I want to support the appeal which has been urged on the President not to press this motion. We have been almost, so to speak, in a snowstorm of Bills; they have been falling like snowflakes on this assembly. Most of these, I should say 50 per cent., so far as the nation's work is concerned, amount to so much as painting the pillar boxes green. That kind of legislation can wait. There are certain things that are essential and that should be got through before the end of the session. I think there is ample time to get them through, but that other things that may be of some importance but are not of immediate urgency should be left over to the next session, or even later. This Intoxicating Liquor Bill, which, I presume, we are to discuss to-day, will probably occupy us beyond twelve o'clock, if it is proceeded with, and we sit until that hour. I say that it is a sheer waste of time, an absolute waste of time, and the infliction upon the country of a discussion of something which could very well wait until some future date when there is no such congestion of Bills before the assembly.
Deputy Davin drew attention to one very important fact, that in addition to attending to the deliberations at this assembly, Deputies have to attend to the interests of their constituents, to acknowledge correspondence received and to interview Government Departments regarding these interests or questions which have been raised. Deputies who meet at 11 o'clock in the morning sit on that Committee until 2 o'clock, sit in the Dáil from 3 until 12, and meet again the following morning at 11 at a Committee meeting have no physical opportunity of attending to their duties as representatives of their constituents. I say if this is not to degenerate into a machine merely to register the measures drafted by the Government's draftsman, there must be time, not merely for ample consideration, but there must also be time for Deputies to have an opportunity of hearing the views of their constituents upon measures which are before the Dáil and which affect their interests. There cannot be that opportunity for mature discussion and consideration or consultation with those whose interests are affected by these measures if we are to sit rushing legislation through, tired and unable to devote the amount of attention that is essential to the serious consideration of the Bills that come before the Dáil. I certainly think that it is very evident that while the Dáil does not wish to embarrass or hold up essential legislation, it is clearly indicated as the serious opinion, the unbiassed opinion, of the majority of the Deputies here, that we should not have these late sittings, which are prejudicial to the serious consideration of Bills, and also make it almost impossible for Deputies to attend to the ordinary routine of their duties as representatives of their constituents.
Would I be in order in moving the Closure? We have already spent half an hour discussing this.
No. Only a Minister can move the Closure.
I propose to modify the motion; to sit till 10.30, and to take half-an-hour's adjournment for tea. Last evening I undertook to give three-quarters of an hour, and another half-hour went, so that we gained nothing last night. I cannot undertake to have these adjournments if they are abused. We spent half-an-hour discussing yesterday, and three-quarters of an hour discussing to-day what we were going to do.
The proposal is to sit later than 8.30, and take the motion for the adjournment not later than 10.30.
Question put and agreed to.
I understand that the Estimates will be taken till 6.30.
Until 7 o'clock, sir, with an adjournment at 7.
It ought to be a simple matter to arrange between the different Parties that there will be a quorum at 7.30. Numbers 3 and 4 on the Order Paper will not be taken to-day. Number 3 is a Money Resolution for the Military Service Pensions Bill.
I think Number 3 will, but we will take the Estimates first. I propose to take the Money Resolution, but not the Bill itself.
No. 6 will not be taken to-day.
No, sir.
If the course that the President now indicates is going to be adopted, Number 6 will be passed by to-day. Would it take a long time if it were taken to-day? It is a matter that has been hanging on for a long time.
I cannot promise to deal with that within a week.