Vol. 8 No. 9
I beg to move:—
That a sum not exceeding £32,595, be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Finance, including the Paymaster-General's Office.
I would like to put one question to the President, as acting for the Minister for Finance, and that is with reference to the failure of the Ministry to form anything in the nature of a Whitley Council in the Civil Service. Had the former state of affairs that existed in the Civil Service continued, they would have held equal rights with those in Great Britain, and would have included in that the right to form a Whitley Council, to negotiate with their employer—the State.
resumed the Chair.
I know that the Minister for Finance holds strong views on this matter, and thinks that a Whitley Council would not improve his relations with the Civil Service. But it is not so much to my mind a question of smoothness of working as a question whether the Civil Servants of the Saorstát have to be placed in an inferior position to Civil Servants in other countries, and deprived of the rights that those Civil Servants possess. I do not pretend to have studied the question deeply, but I think at least a case should be made, and a reason should be given, why this privilege possessed by Civil Servants in Great Britain is denied to Civil Servants in this State.
What exactly are we allowed to discuss in this Vote? Are we allowed to discuss the whole policy of the Minister for Finance?
We cannot discuss matters concerning legislation, can we?
No, but the policy of the Ministry of Finance can be discussed, as the Minister's salary is down here. We cannot discuss Votes already passed, and we cannot discuss matters which would require legislation, nor can we discuss legislation which has been passed at the instance of the Minister for Finance, as part of his policy.
Does that include the Finance Bill?
Yes, the Finance Bill and the Old Age Pensions Act. The Finance Bill has passed from us. It will be before us again with recommendations from the Seanad.
I would like to ask Deputy Cooper through you, sir, why he is so anxious to compare the status of Civil Servants in the Saorstát with those in Great Britain? Why does he not compare them with the Civil Servants in Italy, Spain, Portugal, or somewhere else? Have they Whitley Councils in all these places?
I would be sorry to be so discourteous to Deputy Wilson as not to answer his question. The reason is the bulk of the Civil Servants here were employed by the British Government in the past, and elected to remain in this country rather than take their chances in Northern Ireland or Great Britain. Therefore those who stuck to the ship should not be placed in an inferior position to those who left.
On this question that Deputy Cooper has raised I suppose it is a very good filling-up subject, and will enable us to get our wind for a discussion of the policy of the Ministry of Finance, in respect of the expenditure of money in the various Departments which truthfully or otherwise—I think truthfully—have blamed the Ministry of Finance for all their shortcomings, and for their failure to do the things which they would like to have done. As, I am sure, many Deputies are anxious to explain why they have not been successful in pressing upon the Departments various schemes and proposals, the Minister for Finance would have to bear the burden of the criticism. I understand that the Minister for Finance is the obstacle to anything in the nature of a medium through which the Civil Servants might discuss with the Government, in a collective manner, any grievances or any suggestions that might be made in regard to the conditions of the service in any respect whatever. The establishment of the Whitley Council has not been an absolute success. I think everybody will admit that, but it has certainly been very much better than the previous absence of method. Those who followed the discussions, prior to the establishment of the Whitley Council in the Civil Service, are well aware of the great amount of unrest and trouble that ensued, and of the very frequent discussions that took place in the British House of Commons regarding conditions in the Civil Service. I think it is generally admitted that in practice the Whitley Council has helped to remove many difficulties and grievances, and has given an opportunity for the service to approach the Minister, or whoever is responsible, for the operations of the Departments.
I do not know why the Ministry should be so obdurate in this matter. They are only preparing themselves for future trouble because even Civil Servants do not lose every attribute of humanity when they enter the Service, and they are in contact with the outside world. They know that it is becoming recognised everywhere, outside the Civil Service, that organised bodies are better able to express themselves reasonably and with possibly greater benefit than would be attained by approaching every individual as an individual. The Civil Service will become and remain organised whether in a friendly or unfriendly way and it is far better. I submit to the Ministry, that they should recognise this fact and approve of the establishment of something in the nature of the old council that was in existence and that apparently has been disestablished. So far as I can gather—I will know better to-morrow morning when I will be able to refer to certain papers that have passed away somewhere—the disestablishment of the council, which did exist, has resulted in a good deal of friction and nothing has been proposed to replace this disestablished council. I would like to know from the Minister what is the objection. Does he think that the Civil Servants must be dumb in regard to their conditions? I think, whether it is intentional or not, in a certain Bill passed within the last year there has been definite recognition that there was a contract of service between the Civil Servant and the State and that henceforth he was not in the position of a citizen who had been called to the service of the Crown and the Crown could dispense with him at any moment and do anything with him that it pleased. That relationship has been altered by an Act of the Oireachtas and we should recognise that, and recognise that, if a contract of service is entered into, the people making the contract should be able to act in an organised fashion. The Ministry, apparently, says: "No. We can deal with every man as if he had not a fellow, and every man is to be treated independently of every other. We are not going to allow you to confer with each other, and we are going to prevent you, inferentially, having any unity of view in matters relating to your service." As I have said, I will know better in a few hours what the case of the Civil Servants is, and I hope that we shall be able to state it with more precision and assurance of the facts.
Progress ordered to be reported.
