When this matter was under discussion last week-end the question had been raised as to the position of civil servants, as to the means of access to the Ministry in matters affecting the service, and as to whether the Ministry were prepared to re-institute the Whitley Council system or something equivalent. I think in answer to a question yesterday the Minister said that there had been some consultations, and proposals were still being considered as to the method of such consultation and whether there should be any formal means of communication between representatives of the civil servants and the Ministry. It was pointed out, I think, by Deputy Bryan Cooper that a promise to give an answer within a fortnight was made last March.
I would press upon the Minister the necessity to make provision, or to make some arrangement, whereby civil servants can make representations through formal channels to the Ministry, and with whom Ministers would consult before they make changes. Everything that has been said in regard to the need for channels of communication and consultation in matters affecting the conditions of service in industry and commercial life can be said in regard to the Civil Service. I think it can be contended that a very great deal of success, not as much, perhaps, as was hoped by the enthusiasts, but, nevertheless, a great deal of success, has attended the establishment of this Council in the British Civil Service, and even in the Civil Service in Ireland before the Treaty. No real justification has been adduced, as far as I can gather, for the change. As a matter of fact promises were made, at the institution of the Provisional Government, that similar facilities would be continued, but nothing has been done, and there is undoubtedly a very great deal of irritation and a feeling of no confidence in the minds of civil servants in regard to the attitude of the Ministry touching their conditions. I say quite seriously and earnestly to the Ministry that they ought to reestablish, in either the old form or some amended form, the Whitley Council so that there could be a practical means of communication and consultation and conference, before decisions are arrived at, with the representatives of the staff.
Now in respect to non-established officers—"temporaries," as they are called, some of whom, by the way, have been temporary for many years, a technical expression which takes some time to get accustomed to—I understand the number of temporaries is about equal to the number of permanents and that some of these temporaries have been temporaries for many years. But a great many of them have served for 2, 3, 4, and 5 years, and the position of having a very large number of temporary Civil Servants is not satisfactory. There should be a time beyond which, having proved their ability to do the work, they should enter upon the permanent establishment. Another consideration which I would press upon the Ministry is that there are examinations for Civil Servants being conducted. Considerable numbers of youths are entering for these examinations and one is forced to ask whether the fact that these youths are being examined or that ex-army men are being examined for entrance upon the Civil Service, will mean the disbandment or dismissal of the temporary men. I would say to the Minister that experience of say 3 or 4 years in the work of the Civil Service should count against very high marks in examinations, and that, where men have gone through that period and given anything like satisfaction they should not be lightly dismissed, and that they should not be dismissed to make room for juniors or to make way for boy clerks. But if it is contended that you must have men who have gone through examinations, that there is something of extraordinary value in having an examination, as against experience, then I say that the temporary Civil Servants should be encouraged to go in for these examinations, and that a very large proportion of the marks required should be given for service as distinguished from ability to pass examinations.
I believe, and most people in the world of affairs will confirm that contention, that experience in an office is of very much more value than ability to pass examinations. If they could pass examinations first, and then add the experience, no doubt, you have a further advantage, but that further advantage ought not to be purchased at the expense of the dismissal of experienced men to make way for youths just now entering upon life.
There are two other matters in respect to the Civil Service to which I wish to call attention, and I think I had better do it on the general question. It has been represented to me that there are a number, I do not know how great a number, of men who have taken advantage of the Treaty and retired on pensions, who would be willing if they saw that there was an invitation, or that they would be welcomed, to reenter the Service. I do not know what the attitude of the Ministry would be to such persons, but I think, unless there is a very strong objection, it is a reasonable way to meet the financial situation, to some little extent, and I would invite the Minister to give us his view upon that question. I want also to deal with a matter which has caused a good deal of trouble, and that is the action of the Income Tax Commissioners, but perhaps I should reserve that for the next Vote.