Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 25 Jul 1924

Vol. 8 No. 20

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 52—MINISTRY OF INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £225,676 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, to pay the Salaries and Expenses of the Ministry of Industry and Commerce, including umpire and courts of referees, contributions to the unemployment fund and to special schemes, payments to associations under the Unemployment Insurance Acts, for advances to work-people under the Labour Exchanges Act, 1909, fees and expenses of medical referees under the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906; fees to certifying surgeons under the Factory and Workshops Act, 1901; fees and expenses under the Trade Boards Act, 1909 and 1918; fees and expenses under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, and the Gas Regulations Act, 1920, and Weights and Measures Act, 1889; also expenses in connection with the International Labour Organisation (League of Nations) including a Grant in Aid.

This is the main Vote of the Ministry of Industry and Commerce, the discussion of which is to be postponed until the autumn. If there be any details which now demand an answer, I will try to supply the information.

Mr. JOHNSON

I intimated to the Minister that I proposed to ask him to give the Dáil some information regarding the administration of, and inspection under, the Factory Act. It is true, as Deputy Cooper said, that there are certain matters that will require to be raised under this Vote. I think it was generally agreed that the main discussion might be deferred.

Under sub-head A (Industries Department) I note that there is provision for a temporary Factory Inspector at £136 per year and two temporary Factory Inspectors at £394. That appears to be the whole of the staff engaged in factory inspection. Why they should be temporary I do not understand. I want to press upon the Minister the necessity of having a more general and a more frequent inspection of factories than has been the case for the last number of years. There never was the amount of inspection that was required, and, apparently, from what I gather, there is much less inspection now than ever. In the report presented to the International Labour Office a year ago the policy of the Ministry was indicated as being that of co-ordinating the various inspectorates under these several Acts such as the Insurance Act, the Factory Act, and so on. I would like to have some information as to what progress has been made in that direction and whether as a result of such co-ordination as was then promised there has been more frequent inspection, and what kind of reports have been issued. It used to be the practice to issue reports with regard to factory inspection stating the number of prosecutions, the number of visits, and generally giving information as to the measures taken to safeguard the lives and limbs of the people concerned in the industries. It is important that this should be done thoroughly and efficiently by competent persons and as far as possible by persons who have had some experience in this kind of work, provided they are competent otherwise. I press for information on this matter and for information as to what the intentions of the Ministry are with regard to (1) Factory Inspection under the Factory Acts and (2) the policy of co-ordinating the inspectorates under these various Industrial Acts.

Mr. CONLAN

There is a matter arising on this Vote which I hope I may be allowed to bring under the notice of the Minister, inasmuch as it is more or less a matter of urgency. I refer to the question of the drainage of the River Barrow. This is a matter which has been agitated for a great number of years, and the absolute necessity for its being carried out has been admitted. A few months back I was a member of a deputation which waited upon the Minister's predecessor. It was a most representative deputation. I may say it included clergymen of all denominations from the district, Senators, Deputies, business people, as well as farmers. The deputation put before Deputy McGrath, who was then Minister, the full facts of the case, and they were assured that the question would have the immediate attention of the Government. I think there has been a good deal of inaction with regard to the matter since, because, so far as I know, nothing has been done. Deputies may not realise the importance of this question, and how it affects a large area of the country. I may also say that it is an increasing evil. In 1886 it was estimated that 46,000 acres were affected by the flooding. In 1905, when a further estimate was made, it was shown that 50,000 acres were affected. This year, when the matter was further gone into, it was found that the area affected had increased to 70,000 acres, or something like 100 square miles.

In addition to the area immediately affected, it is estimated that about three-quarters of a million acres are indirectly affected on account of the tributaries discharging into the main river being choked up and unable to effect a discharge of the water. The sufferings of the people living in this area are appalling. Year by year they suffer a loss of crops, a loss of cattle, and tubercular and other diseases are rife in the district. This has been testified to by medical men, amongst others by Dr. Daly, tuberculosis medical officer for County Kildare, Dr. Rice of Portarlington, who is resident in Leix, as well as others. There is no reason why this work should not be gone on with. Under the British Government surveys were carried out, plans were made at a cost I am told of something like £50,000. These plans and surveys are in possession of Mr. Bergin, one of the engineers who was employed in making them, and are available any time.

Another aspect of the case is that this work would be highly reproductive. This vast plain is composed of alluvial soil to a depth of several feet which, if relieved of water, would be capable of producing the finest crops and most luxurious pastures. At present it is nearly useless and the wonder is that any of the unfortunate people have continued to live there. The fact I think can only be explained by taking into consideration the tenacity with which Irish people cling to their homes, however undesirable these habitations may be. The state of the River Barrow and the adjoining country has been a matter of reproach to the British Government for years. When travelling through it I have often pointed out to Englishmen the lake that exists there in the winter time and I put it to them if it was not a reproach to their Government and they admitted that it was. I am sure such a state of affairs would not be allowed to exist in any Continental country or in England. In making these statements I do not mean to make any reflection on the present Minister. I recognise his ability and that he is a man of progressive ideas who will, I am sure, do all he can to have this work done. I ask him not to be intimidated by the Minister for Finance who is always put up as a sort of bogey-man when any scheme involving any expenditure for the benefit of the country is suggested.

Another feature in connection with this question is that unemployment is very rife in the Counties of Kildare and Leix, especially in Kildare. We had a great British camp—the largest in the three kingdoms there—with very extensive barracks in Newbridge and the town of Kildare. The removal of the British troops has resulted in thousands of people losing their means of living. Certainly, if nothing is done to provide employment for them, I am afraid the unemployment question will become a grave menace in this particular district. There is no reason, as far as I can see, why this work of draining the Barrow should not be gone on with. We heard the Minister for Agriculture deplore recently the want of that quality of self-reliance, especially amongst Irish farmers.

On the deputation that approached the Minister, Senator McEvoy, who resides in the affected area, and who is intimately acquainted with all the circumstances connected with the Barrow made an offer that if the Government would go ahead with the work the local people would contribute half the cost, amounting to something like £200,000. It is estimated that the drainage of the upper reaches of the Barrow could be effected for £300,000 and the lower Barrow for £100,000. That was a distinct advance on any proposal that was ever made before in connection with this scheme, because it was only provided in former schemes that a certain contribution per acre should be made by people whose land adjoined the Barrow. Why should the Government not float a loan in connection with this scheme? In a private business it is considered the right thing to obtain a loan to carry out work that will permanently improve that business. Presumably the same thing applies to a national undertaking. We are not by any means a bankrupt country. Our resources are good and only want to be developed. I think if the Minister will take his courage in both hands and put forward that forceful side of his character which we recognise here against the Minister for Finance, he will be able to carry out this scheme. If he does so he will bring credit not alone to himself but to the Government generally.

Mr. COLOHAN

I would like to support Deputy Conlan in his demand that the Ministry of Industry and Commerce should insist on the Ministry of Finance finding the money for this scheme, if only to relieve unemployment. There are thousands of workers and their families living along the banks of the Barrow practically starving. A deputation came here to urge the then Minister for Industry and Commerce to undertake this work immediately. The deputation was favourably received, but soft words butter no parsnips. After 100 years I think it is time to get going on the Barrow drainage. Even in the interests of the public health, I think this river should have been drained long ago. Owing to the flooding people are falling victims to tuberculosis in that wretched area, and if they get a chance of moving from it into other areas they are bringing that dread disease with them. Everyone knows what that means to the national health. It is time for the Minister to give some earnest of what an Irish Government can do by undertaking this scheme of public utility. A couple of years ago we were told that when the demobilisation of the Army would take place large schemes of public utility would be started to absorb the men. Where are the schemes? We cannot get a few thousand pounds to feed the hungry people in the country. Here is a scheme practically ready. you have the plans and the engineers, so that I cannot see why it could not be tackled at once. I know that the Ministry of Industry and Commerce is favourably disposed, but I think that Department should press the Ministry of Finance and let the people see that the Government is going to do something for those who are at present starving.

Mr. MORRISSEY

I would like to know from the Minister if he would give some explanation for the very large reductions under sub-heads G and H?

Major COOPER

This does not preclude us going back to sub-head A.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

No.

Mr. MORRISSEY

"Travelling expenses and allowances, including compensation for loss of time of members and persons required to attend the court," what exactly is meant by "persons required to attend the court"? I would also like an explanation of the very large reduction from £1,500 to £300. Does that mean that the courts do not meet as often as they did? or that the number has been reduced and that unemployed persons who are appealing to these courts have to travel longer distances, and are under greater expense?

Major COOPER

Deputy Morrissey wants an explanation of reductions. I want an explanation of increases. In particular, I would like to ask the Minister to give us some explanation of the very great increase in the numbers employed and in the money required for the Statistics Department. In that Department the number employed has been increased by nearly one hundred; that is to say, by two hundred per cent over those employed last year. Leaving out of account £6,000 which appeared in the Ministry of Agriculture Vote last year, the amount has more than doubled from last year. This is the more remarkable, because I have been given to understand that the Statistics Department has been equipped with calculating machines which, when they were introduced, were said to be going to save a large amount of expenditure on staff. Instead of that the staff has trebled, and I presume— though I cannot find it in the Estimate—we have to find the money to pay for the calculating machines as well. I hope the Minister will be able to tell us something on that, and also give some general explanation of the increased cost of the Ministry. Eighty more people are employed this year in it than last year, and the cost under sub-head A—Salaries, Wages, and Allowances—has gone up by £25,000. That is not the net increase, because there are savings to which Deputy Morrissey has called attention which have reduced it in other directions. While the Minister for Finance is attempting to balance his Budget, an increase of 80 in numbers and of £25,000 in salaries is not entirely satisfactory, and requires some explanation.

Mr. DAVIN

I desire to support the plea put forward by Deputies Conlan and Colohan in reference to the urgency of the Barrow drainage scheme. The Minister may say that before going ahead with the scheme it would be necessary to introduce legislation. I agree, and I hope that the interval between the adjournment and the 21st October will be availed of by whatever Minister is responsible, to have a Bill drafted so that it can be introduced when we meet again, to pave the way for going ahead with this work. I would like if the Minister could give the number of unemployed in the counties Carlow, Kildare, Leix, Offaly and Kilkenny—which are the counties mostly affected by the flooding of the Barrow—and also the amount of money paid in unemployment benefit in these counties. I accompanied the deputation which was received by the ex-Minister for Industry and Commerce when a promise was made that the matter would receive very serious consideration. So far as I know, nothing has been done since that time except that we have been informed that the Board of Works were asked to make a report. All the reports that are necessary in connection with the matter are already available in the Board of Works office. I have been told that members of the Executive Council consider it advisable before proceeding with the scheme to bring over German or American engineers to look into the reports that have been already submitted to the Board. I am convinced that there is nothing to be gained, except delay, by bringing over engineers from other countries, because I believe that we have here engineers who are quit competent to deal with the matter.

The question of finance is, of course, a serious matter. When I heard Senator MacEvoy make the offer on behalf of the local people to find half the money, I thought he had gone too far. I think this is a great national question and that the Government should be prepared to find two-thirds of the money. At any rate, there is plenty of time between this and the 21st October to give this matter serious consideration, and I trust that when we meet then the Executive Council will include in their legislative programme a Bill which will enable them to proceed with this work without further delay.

Mr. WILSON

Under sub-head J the contribution to the Unemployment Fund and to special schemes this year amounts to £200,000. Under the sub-head of Appropriations in Aid the income which the Minister hopes to receive from the fund is £95,000. In view of the statement made by the Minister for Finance that there was something over half a million already advanced, I would like to know what is the position of this fund at present, and when the Minister hopes that the income will be sufficient to pay the benefits. I would also like to know if the Minister has any idea of the industrial population of the Saorstát, and how many people there are unemployed. If we had this information we would be able to envisage the situation better, and see how we could evolve some schemes which would give employment and do away with this unemployment donation.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Does the Deputy refer to the number who would come under the Unemployment Insurance Act or the total number unemployed?

Mr. WILSON

The total number unemployed. I do not believe there is very much unemployment in agricultural areas.

Mr. JOHNSON

The Deputy ought to go into the country.

Mr. WILSON

I do not believe there is any unemployment in the agricultural areas. If you find out how many people in this country are engaged in employment which brings them under the Unemployment Insurance Act, and then find out how many of the population are idle and drawing the dole, you will see the extent of the drain that the dole imposes on the resources of the country. It will also give you some idea of the necessity for getting forward with a scheme such as the Barrow scheme.

Mr. BAXTER

Arising out of this discussion on the Barrow scheme initiated by Deputy Conlan, Deputy Davin and Deputy Colohan, it would be well, I suggest, if the Minister would keep before his mind in considering that scheme, that there are other parts of the country just as badly in need of a drainage scheme as the area served by the Barrow.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I would just like to point out that I have nothing whatever to do with drainage schemes in any part of the country.

Mr. BAXTER

The point I want to make is this: that there are other areas of the country, as well as the area served by the Barrow, in need of a scheme which would help to relieve unemployment. I realise that great damage is being done by the floods in are area served by the Barrow, but I desire to impress on the Minister that there are other parts of the country where drainage is as urgently required to be done as in the Barrow area, and where also schemes that would help to relieve unemployment are as urgently needed. What I desire to impress on the Minister is that this is a problem that is peculiar to other parts of Ireland as well as to the area referred to by the Deputies for Kildare and Leix.

Mr. E. DOYLE

I desire to support the plea that has been made in connection with the Barrow scheme by Deputy Conlan, Deputy Davin and Deputy Colohan. This is a problem that has been causing a great deal of agitation for a long number of years. At the outset, I would like to say that I do not think Deputy Wilson is correct in his statement that there is no unemployment problem to be dealt with in the rural districts of the country. That is an incorrect statement, and to my own knowledge large numbers of people in the rural districts are at the moment practically starving. Of course I realise that to state in this Dáil that people are starving may be regarded as cant, but I know it to be a fact, and I think it must be admitted it is a very sad fact. Anyone who tries to mask that fact is doing a wrong thing. This problem of unemployment will have to be dealt with in this country in the very near future. I wonder do Deputies on some of the other Benches in this House realise that agricultural labourers, and some men who are classed as road workers, are not entitled to share in unemployment benefit like the workers in the towns. There are hundreds of such men in the Barrow area who, for that reason, are not entitled to draw unemployment benefit, and the result is that a great deal of destitution prevails amongst the workers in that area. I trust that the Minister will do all in his power to have a start made with this Barrow scheme, which, if it were set on foot, would do something at least to relieve the great distress that prevails amongst the unemployed in that area.

Mr. NALLY

I desire to call the attention of the Minister to the urgent necessity for starting a drainage scheme on the river Robe in the County Mayo. An area of about seven thousand acres is subject to flooding by that river. About ten years ago the Congested Districts Board had the river surveyed, and levels were taken. As a result of these investigations it was estimated that about £8,000 would drain the river. The plans and surveys made at that time are, I understand, at present in the possession of the Land Commission. The area which is subject to floods from this river is a very congested one, and I hope that the Minister will be able to see his way to do something in the near future as regards the drainage of this river. The carrying out of a drainage scheme there is urgently needed, and would help to provide the unemployed with useful and productive work.

Mr. GOOD

If the Minister has the figures available, I would be glad to have information on a few points. I notice an increase of £2,590 in connection with the International Labour Organisation. If he has the figures available, I would be glad to have some information as to the reasons for that increase. It would be well, also, I think, if we had some information to explain the increase of £21,000 in his own Department. In the Minister's, as in most other Departments, there appears to be a considerable increase in salaries, etc. It would be well, also, I think, if we had some particulars as to reasons for the increase in staff. If the Minister has not the figures available, I would not press for the information now, because the President pointed out yesterday that an opportunity would be given during the next Session for raising questions touching the administration of the Department of Industry and Commerce.

Mr. MILROY

I do not intend to detain the Dáil very long in discussing this service. The trend of the discussion so far has largely been in the nature of interrogatories on questions relating to drainage and so on. I am sorry that this Estimate was not reached at an earlier stage in our proceedings. If not the most important, this Estimate is at least one of the most serious and important that we have to discuss.

Lest its passing at this stage, with simply the putting of a few queries, should give rise to the impression that the general policy of the Ministry meets with approval, I just wish to register my dissent at this stage from being a sharer in any such contention. Had this Estimate been reached at an earlier stage when we would have had ample time to discuss the policy and work of this Department in all its bearings, I would have endeavoured to deal with it at some length, and it is only because an assurance has been given that an opportunity to discuss the general policy of this Ministry will be afforded on the resumption of the Dáil in the Autumn, that I do not press for that opportunity now. There is only one question I wish to ask at this stage, and that is with regard to the proposed electrification of the Shannon. I desire to know what progress has been made in regard to that particular move, whether it is likely to materialise and when we can have some report presented to the Dáil as to what particular development has been reached in regard to that scheme.

Mr. P. HOGAN (Clare)

I desire to ask the Minister a question in connection with the position of rural workers I was amazed to hear Deputy Wilson make a statement that there was very little unemployment in rural areas. I wonder if the Deputy has ever considered that the cause of a good deal of the unemployment in cities and towns is due to the lack of employment in rural areas. The people migrate from the rural areas into the cities and towns to seek employment, and it is that that causes a lot of the unemployment in the cities and towns. I could never understand the principle which excluded agricultural workers from the operations of the Unemployment Insurance Act. Surely these people have to find the means of subsistence just as much as the dwellers in the cities and towns, and it seems to me a bit of an anomaly that agricultural workers should be excluded from the benefits of that Act.

I could never, as I say, understand that principle, and I hope the Minister will give some enlightenment on the matter. The position of road-workers under the Unemployment Insurance Act also seems to me to be a bit of an anomaly. When they appealed against the decision of the officer in the Labour Exchange they were cut out by the Department simply because they lived in rural areas. In the case of men from the towns working on the roads, they are entitled to benefit under the Act if they lose their employment, but in the case of a man from the country, even though his insurance is stopped while in the employment of the county council, he gets no benefit when his employment ceases. When he seeks the unemployment insurance benefit he is told that he is not entitled to get benefit simply because he lives in a rural area. I maintain that the fact that a man lives in a rural area does not make him an agricultural worker. That is a matter in the administration of the Act which I suggest should claim the serious attention of the Minister.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Deputy Johnson, who was the first speaker on this Vote, raised a question of the administration of the Factory Acts, and queried the allowance made for staff factory inspectors and otherwise, and pleaded finally for more frequent inspection of factories. That is exactly what we are working towards. The whole question of establishment for factory inspection is under consideration. We have advanced to the point where the Department's scheme has been made out and has been forwarded to other Departments concerned, and we are hoping to arrive at a position when we will have eight inspectors. Now, I do not want to be misunderstood in that. The eight inspectors will not be eight factory inspectors. They must be certificated so as to become factory inspectors or to undertake inspection work, but I do not say that they will be used solely for factory inspection. The idea is to combine the Trade Board work and the factory inspection work under these eight inspectors. At the moment the estimate is rather misleading, because on ordinary examination it would appear that there are only three officers, and they have been described by the Deputy as temporary. As a matter of fact, there are four officers certificated in a proper way, and a fifth, whose certificate is in preparation, so that actually in a very short time there will be five officials at the disposal of the Department suitable and certificated for factory inspection work. It has to be admitted that inspections under the Acts have fallen below the standard aimed at under the old conditions, and aimed at at present in England. That simply was due to the fact that it was rather the absence of a proper staff that made inspections fall below the normal, and with the increased staff which we are pressing for we will work certainly up to the old regulations.

I believe there should be one inspection per annum of every undertaking under these Acts. That may not be sufficient either, and if not we will speed up to a better point, but that would require a larger staff again. But we hope that when we get eight appointed we will work up to the old standard. We are quite below the standard as it used to be. For instance, the registered total of premises liable to inspection was over 9,000 in 1922, and of these something under 3,000 were visited. In 1923, 9,400 odd were registered and 2,398 were visited. There were, however, more visits paid than that; some of them were visited more than once, and over 3,000 were paid altogether. The report of the inspectors was not issued for 1922, as it did not cover a complete year. The report for that period and for 1923 will be issued shortly.

Deputy Conlan started the list of Deputies who have all spoken about the Barrow drainage system. That is not on my Vote at all, but I believe an undertaking was given that the matter could be raised upon that Vote, and that that gave Deputy Nally a chance also to raise the question of the Robe and other Deputies to raise drainage questions as well. I have no great responsibility for the Barrow except that a lot of these things might be said to converge upon my Department because they deal with the question of the relief of unemployment, and looking at it from that angle, there is not so much to be said for the Barrow scheme, and certainly nothing to be said for it as an immediate relief for unemployment. The Barrow drainage scheme has to be looked into in all its details, because the carrying out of a half or one-third or any other fraction of a drainage scheme for the Barrow would be useless. It has to be done properly and completely or not at all. The money expended would, of course, go over a greater number of people now in insurance benefit, but it would be, I hold, unproductive.

Mr. CONLAN

Unproductive?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Yes, if spent on a partial scheme. I have a different attitude towards a complete scheme. The tackling of the Barrow drainage problem, as a complete scheme, is one of the things that I am pressing. It has been admitted by the Minister for Finance to be a very pressing problem and the only thing is to get the required engineering skill and the necessary plans to have the thing gone on with. I am aware of the circumstances about this scheme. It was started in 1809 and was only interrupted by the Napoleonic wars. Then, 70 years later another scheme was put forward but was interrupted. I do not know who interrupted that, but I believe it was said it was the old Irish Parliamentary Party. Later, in the year 1913, another scheme came up, and the outbreak of the great European war stopped that. We are now approaching it for the fourth time—the lucky number, I hope —and the only thing is that the plans —such plans as there were, were never very detailed. There was a lot of preliminary investigation to assure those concerned that the scheme was necessary and to make an estimate of the cost, but there were no plans of any use to the engineers.

Mr. CONLAN

I am informed that the plans are all in existence, and I was told so by Mr. Bergin, one of the engineers who was engaged in the survey.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Yes, I believe Mr. Bergin was on the deputation which recently waited on the Government and which consisted of four Deputies and some Senators, and thirteen others, but I think that the only plans available were the plans of 1890, and it was very doubtful that they would be of any use. I do not know about the Napoleonic plans.

Mr. CONLAN

There were plans prepared for the Commission, but I am afraid we would require a Napoleon to get this work done.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The Napoleon period estimate of expenditure only asked for a quarter of a million of money. That has gone up at least to three-quarters of a million, and the idea was that if it was to be done on the report of one of the Commissions— I think the Castletown Commission—it would run to something in the region of £1,300,000. There is a great divergence of opinion, and I cannot believe, as Deputy Davin seems to suggest, that just to have a delay the Office of Public Works is going to say that there are no plans on which the engineers can immediately work. On that, of course. Deputy Davin could not resist the temptation of saying that the Barrow was going to be handed over to German engineers. Since the Deputy has seen a German engineer on the Barrow, his whole outlook has been coloured and prejudiced. I am not responsible for sending the German to the Barrow, but if any German engineer comes to my Department and submits an estimate showing a lower cost than the other estimates, it will be given equal consideration with the others. I cannot imagine why Deputy Davin believes that the only reason for not starting the scheme is that there is deliberate delay. If the scheme has to be tackled, as it obviously has, why not tackle it this year when there is a great deal of unemployment, and not put it off till next year, when we hope things will be better? The great difficulty is that the plans are not ready and while I do not want to disparage the engineers of this country, I say there are very few engineers here with experience of dredging on large rivers. To say that Irish engineers are among the best in the world does not get us any further. The point is, we want men who have particular experience, and who will be useful in tackling the problem of the drainage of the Barrow. The scheme is, however, going along and men are being looked for, but there is going to be delay. I think it is beyond all possibility that there will be any attack on the Barrow this year. The season is, I think, passed. I am not blaming Deputies, as they had their deputations ready. If the plans were there the scheme could be taken in hand.

Mr. COLOHAN

The plans are ready and available, and cross sections were taken at every hundred yards showing the depths to which the river should be sunk, and pegs were driven into the banks of the river and are still there.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

There is a conflict of experts, about which I spoke earlier. I have to stand fire from both sides, while it is not my responsibility to look after this scheme. I put it to the Deputy that he cannot say that the Office of Public Works is deliberately telling us something which it knows to be wrong. I am told that the plans are not in such a condition as would enable the engineer to be told: "There are the plans; go and start the work."

Mr. COLOHAN

Could the Minister not get in touch with Mr. Bergin and get information from him, as his own information may be got, perhaps, from those who want to delay putting the scheme into operation?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I do not know how I am to approach Mr. Bergin unless he comes along and interviews me about unemployment, and introduces, as were introduced here, estimates of the cost of drainage. If he can show the plans of a good scheme to be put into operation immediately, that is another matter. Even if there is delay, there is another point to be considered. The original estimate was £300,000, and the area to be drained was 40,000 acres. We have had various Commissions, and finally we had these large deputations, and we find that the figure has grown to between three-quarters of a million and one and a half millions, and that the area instead of being 40,000, is 64,000 acres. That again has to be further examined.

Mr. CONLAN

The increase in the area affected is attributed to the fact that the river is becoming more and more silted.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The point I wish to make is that there has been an increase in the estimated expenditure. It has been put that the latest estimates are far too high, even admitting the change in values since 1819 and 1899. If the delay of a year has to be admitted, and I think it has, it would be better to have the whole thing subjected to the most vigorous examination to see whether £250,000 might be saved. So far as the scheme is concerned, the Barrow has, of course, to be tackled. I cannot say that the plans will be here before the 21st October, as was suggested, or that the scheme will be settled this year or next.

Mr. COLOHAN

Who is responsible?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The Office of Public Works, but the Minister for Finance is the responsible Minister; he is very keen on this scheme. He has to have things under examination, but enthusiasm is not going to get him anywhere. He is the custodian of the public purse.

Mr. DAVIN

Will the Minister undertake to look into the report of Professor Purcell in connection with the Canal Commission, which concerns his Department, and a copy of which is in that Department?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I can undertake to look into any report but the actual carrying out of the scheme has nothing to do with me. I suppose since my Department has charge of the Germans I may as well throw it into their hands and let the scheme be carried out by them. Deputy Morrissey questioned the reduction in the amounts under sub-heads G and H. The Unemployment Insurance Act of 1923 did limit the number of people who would be in receipt of benefit, and, consequently, claims are estimated to be fewer this year. The amount would depend on the number of claims submitted, and the Estimate was reduced to meet the changed circumstances. Possibly next year the Deputy will query me as to the reason of an increase. If the Act of 1924 increase the number of people who would get benefit there would be an increase in the number of inspectors and in other expenditure. Deputy Cooper raised the question concerning the Statistical Department and queried the increased figures both in regard to the expenditure of money and the staff. The increase in the expenditure is explained by the increase in staff. Although it is clear that certain machines were procured and put at the disposal of this Department, it must be remembered that the Department is breaking out on a lot of new ground. The purchase of the machines has reduced the amount of employment, but it did not prevent the actual increase, as shown of almost 100.

Major COOPER

Can the Minister explain why when taking over a service from the Department of Agriculture which cost £4,000 he has now to pay over £6,000?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I presume that it is intended to do in the Ministry the work in better style than that in which it was done when under the Department of Agriculture. Perhaps I had better read out the headings of the work to be done by this Department. There are trade statistics. There was the old system of trade statistics, and the new one was introduced since the Customs frontier was established. There are shipping statistics, migration and emigration, railway, canal and tramway statistics, statistics with regard to prices of live stock at fairs, market prices, supply of farming requirements, import and export prices, and index-numbers with regard to wages and salaries, and numbers employed as agricultural labourers, railway employees' statistics, bacon-curing, banking deposits, and, with this, all the material taken over from the Department of Agriculture with regard to the area of crops and the number of live stock. We have statistics of unemployment insurance, and, in addition to that, there is a lot of new work, part of which has been put in hand already. There is one point for which I have taken the responsibility of asking that certain work be gone ahead with. That is the work that would fall to this Department under the Census of Production Bill which it is hoped will be introduced in the autumn.

Major COOPER

The Minister says he has taken over the work of the Department of Agriculture with regard to the statistics of crops and prices. Does he know that the Minister for Agriculture has the sum of £1,810 for the collection of the statistics in his Estimate, and is the work being duplicated?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I think it is not a question of duplication but a question of the transition period in which arrangements have to be made.

Major COOPER

Will the Minister have those statistics laid on the Table of the Dáil? Except for the trade statistics I do not think we get any of them.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

That is being inquired into at the moment. The Statistics Branch is pigeon-holing information which could quite well appear in the form of a publication. The main question is that of expense, and we are seeing how far that can be met. I have certain departmental proposals to put before the Ministry of Finance if and when this Dáil rises. In the interval if there is any leisure, I hope to make certain arrangements with the Minister for Finance by which more information will be given to the public. There is quite an amount of information in the Department, especially in the Statistical Branch, which can very usefully be put at the disposal of the public. The question is one of expenditure, and that is bound up with a still larger question, the question of whether or not this Statistical Branch is going to grow into a Central Statistical Bureau of the Government.

Mr. JOHNSON

Could not the Minister, without very much extra expenditure, circulate to the Dáil such duplicated matter as they already duplicate for their own purpose, such as unemployment statistics, figures regarding the various trades, and so on, which is periodically duplicated for internal use and which would be helpful to the Dáil.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I do not want to promise too much. Certain things are circulated in the Department which without additional expense, could be put in form for the members of the Dáil, but to do anything beyond that would be very expensive. They can be circulated to the Dáil and sent to the Press. That has been held up pending a decision on the whole question of complete publication of a great many more matters than those which are published within the Department. Deputy Wilson raised the matter of the Unemployment Insurance Fund. It was stated that there was a sum of £877,000 due to the Central Fund from the Unemployment Insurance Fund. Deputy Wilson remembers that the Minister for Finance seemed to regard that as a doubtful asset. That would about represent the state of things now. The fund is still in debt to the Central Fund to about £880,000. Against that is a counter-claim. This is the idea, that it is almost a bad debt and that in a four years' period in this country with normal unemployment, and with full compliance with the terms of the Act, that sum would be paid off.

Mr. WILSON

The £95,000 appropriation in aid was not a fair amount.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

That is different altogether. I am speaking of the sums accumulated up to date simply as an advance made by the Central Fund. That would represent sums coming in this year as a result of compliance with the Act, even with abnormal unemployment. The amount would be righted in four years, given full compliance with the Act. To the other questions the answers would be this. The Deputy asked for the figures of the industrial population of the country. There is a difficulty there as to what "industrial" means. The only population I am concerned with is such industrial population as is insurable. That would amount to about one quarter of a million. For national health purposes the figures are £400,000. The 150,000 difference would represent agricultural labourers, domestic servants and others. The unemployed at the moment, that is, the insurable unemployed, amount to 37,000.

Mr. JOHNSON

That includes those who have registered themselves. That is taken from those who have registered themselves?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I do not want to say it means only those who have registered themselves. It would include all those who are registered.

Mr. JOHNSON

From now onward it would be more accurate, but would the Minister agree that amongst those who would be insurable, and who normally would have been insured or were at one time insured, many have ceased to register themselves as unemployed, because they knew they were debarred from benefit?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Yes. The claims amount to about 38,000, and there would appear to be no less than another four thousand.

Mr. GOOD

Is any inspection made amongst those claiming unemployment benefit to see that they are actually unemployed?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

They must prove that they are unemployed; that is really the delay that has occurred under the new Act. Claims are lodged, and then claims have to be gone into and definite evidence of unemployment given. Not only that, but there must also be evidence that there is no suitable employment that a man can get.

Mr. GOOD

A man is employed one week and unemployed the next, and he might have attempted to draw unemployment insurance. Is there any inspection to be made in a case of that kind?

Mr. NAGLE

That would be the fault of the employer who employed the man without asking for his insurance card.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The only point raised by Deputy Baxter is that having reference to drainage schemes. I must wipe that out, as I have nothing to do with the particular drainage schemes to which Deputy Baxter referred. As regards Deputy Nally's particular scheme—the Robe— that again is none of my immediate concern. Deputy Good raised a general point with regard to the whole increase of staff.

Mr. GOOD

Before that I raised the international point.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I want to deal with the other point first—the question of the increase of staff, which, I think, he took from page 187 of the Estimates. If he examines that matter in detail he will see that the increase in personnel is merely in the Statistics Branch and that the increase in the salaries would be accounted for by that increase of personnel—it pretty well accounts for it, but not completely.

Mr. GOOD

I take it that as regards the increases of staffs the Minister for Finance supervises the increases in the different departments and has to approve of them before they actually take effect.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Oh, yes. The whole question of staffs, the question of establishment, is under the Minister for Finance, and he would deal with it in the main. The Department puts up certain names, but the Minister for Finance would be the ruling authority.

Mr. GOOD

He told us that he scrutinises those before he puts them into force.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The Minister for Finance has the last say with regard to the transfers of people from one department to another. A question was raised as to the sum of £3,453 for the Grant in Aid of the expenses of the International Labour Organisation (League of Nations) as opposed to £863 for last year. Last year's Vote was a Grant in Aid for three months only. This is really a subtraction from the League of Nations Vote, a portion of it going to the Ministry of Industry and Commerce, inasmuch as that Ministry deals with the International Labour side of it. As we only joined the organisation in 1923 the apportionment for last year was only for three months, whereas it is for a full year on this occasion.

Mr. GOOD

Could the Minister give us information about the advantages that we receive for that?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The advantage would be very difficult to set out just as you set out an advantage on the basis of expenditure and receipts. The advantage is rather psychological and moral. The fact of being a member of the League of Nations gives us automatically the right of membership of the International Labour Organisation. The object of the International Labour Organisation is, of course, the consideration and amelioration of conditions affecting labour in the countries concerned.

It does happen that the United Kingdom was pretty well in the forefront with regard to conditions of Labour, and so far the work of the International Labour Organisation has been bringing up the more backward Continental nations to the level of what we had reached as being part of the United Kingdom. Being a separate autonomy, subject to the same regulations, that same comment would apply. So that while it cannot be said that much good has accrued to us from our Labour side by reason of our membership of this organisation, if and when the backward nations are brought more or less into line with the advanced nations, then there would be a further advance, and the whole Labour position will be further examined. At present the benefits have been rather to the backward nations. We have got no benefits, as we are rather in the forefront.

Mr. JOHNSON

On that point would the Minister hazard the opinion that the cost of international labour in quiry imposed on the Department would be higher than £3,453 if they had not the International Organisation to call upon?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

There is no doubt about it that by pooling of the expenses in connection with the League of Nations and the International Labour Organisation there would be a considerable saving. We could not get all the information which we have got for the figure here quoted. Deputy Milroy, I think, expressed general disagreement with the whole Ministry and I think he is to put that in more detail in his usual abbreviated way in the autumn. He then, after that, I think, referred to the Shannon scheme, and he wanted to know if reports on the matter would be laid before the Dáil. so that some indication might be given as to progress. From that, I think, he has not read the White Paper in connection with the Shannon scheme. The arrangement was that the report was to be submitted to the Government, on the 1st September, and then be examined by whatever experts the Government would appoint. As that date has not yet come, I cannot say how far the Shannon scheme has advanced, and I have nothing to lay before the Dáil. If the Deputy desires any more detailed information than what I have got, he should get in touch with the person whose anonymity is rather cleverly preserved, the Irish correspondent of the "Sunday Times." I think he has a lot of matter at his disposal.

Vote put and agreed to.

Motion made to report Progress.