Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 7 Nov 1924

Vol. 9 No. 11

DÁIL IN COMMITTEE. - LIVE STOCK BREEDING BILL, 1924—THIRD STAGE (RESUMED).

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I beg to move the following amendment to Section 3:

In sub-section (1) (e), line 19, after the word "prolific" to add the words "but this clause shall not apply in cases where the bull is kept exclusively for use with the herd which is the property of the owner of the bull."

The object of the amendment is very evident. The idea is that if the owner of a bull, which he keeps for his own purpose, has one that he desires to retain, it is not a matter of concern for the country or the Department as to how prolific that bull is. If a bull of high strain is not prolific, his progeny may be of such great advantage to the owner that he may be anxious to keep it. As the Bill stands, the Minister has power to cause the destruction of such a bull as that. My amendment has the effect of allowing the owner to retain the bull.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

It is hardly worth while wasting time over this amendment. A bull that is not prolific is not going to do very much harm. If the Deputy likes, I will agree to delete clause (e) entirely. I do not want to overload the Bill with too many exceptions. I will delete the clause, as it does not matter. The first thing that is known in any neighbourhood is that the particular animal is not prolific, and there will not be much harm done by the deletion I am agreeing to.

Mr. JOHNSON

Is the Minister prepared to delete clauses (c) and (e)?

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

I am deleting only clause (e).

Mr. HEFFERNAN

In view of the undertaking given by the Minister, I am willing to withdraw my amendment. The Minister, I take it, will bring in, at a later date, an amendment to delete that particular clause.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

That will be done on the Report Stage?

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

It will be.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. DUGGAN

I beg to move the following amendment:—

To insert before sub-section (2) a new sub-section as follows:—

"In the case of a pure-bred bull the property of one person and used exclusively for the service of cows the property of that person, the Minister shall not refuse to grant a licence under this Act solely on the ground mentioned in paragraph (b) of sub-section (1) of this section."

The amendment explains itself.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

The discussion on this matter was closured rather hurriedly last night and I was not quite satisfied with the Minister's explanation. I suggested that he should withdraw the word "pure-bred," and he declined to do so. I think if he considers the matter fully there are reasons why the word should be withdrawn. As the Bill stands, the owner of a herd who keeps a bull for the exclusive use of that herd can only, on his own option, keep a pure-bred bull of a certain class, provided that bull conforms to the type that is authorised to be kept in a particular county or district.

To my mind the Bill interferes too much with the personal liberty of the stock-owner or the herd-owner. I see no reason why, even in Cahirciveen, a man if he has a herd of his own, and if he gets a bull purely for the use of that herd, should not be allowed to keep a cross-bred bull of the Dairy Shorthorn type.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

Did the Deputy say a cross-bred?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I should have said half-bred and not cross-bred.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

There is all the difference in the world.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I misused the word. I meant a bull of the Dairy Shorthorn type which is not pure-bred. As the Bill stands the man could not keep such a bull. The Bill is too restrictive on the personal liberty of the farmer. Under this Bill the country is being converted into a large stock farm with the Minister as manager.

Mr. P.K. HOGAN (Limerick)

I desire to support Deputy Heffernan in urging on the Minister the desirability of assisting owners of herds in this matter. At the same time I think there should be included in the Bill something permitting the introduction of pure-bred or half-bred Shorthorns. As the amendment stands it will shut out a good half-bred Shorthorn, and that is the type from which we get the best calves in the country, robust calves of sound constitution. If the amendment were to be passed in this form, the half-bred Shorthorn would be shut out. I consider that we should not allow a half-bred Polled-Angus or Hereford. Usually there is a bad recrossing from them; but with the pure-bred Shorthorn, the longer you cross the better the progeny becomes. I would urge the Minister, if he does not see his way to delete the word "pure-bred," to let the section read something like this: "In the case of a pure-bred or half-bred bull"; that would not shut out the County Limerick and County Tipperary half-bred bulls.

Mr. D'ALTON

I desire to press upon the Minister the point raised by Deputy Hogan. It is an important matter. The type of bull that is necessary is the Shorthorn, and that particular type is largely through County Limerick and County Tipperary.

Mr. GOREY

It is everywhere.

Mr. D'ALTON

Perhaps it is also in Wexford and Kilkenny It is very important that the type of bull which has produced the very best cattle in Munster, the best all-round cattle for beef, milk, and early maturity, should be retained. The importance of that matter is very great. It means practically bringing bulls up to the level of the very cattle that Deputy Hogan has referred to. That is one of the main ideas of the Bill. Those animals should be had in preference to any pure-bred animal, because they have produced the stock that is of so very much value to the country. Those should be retained and the point that Deputy Hogan has raised is one that the Minister should consider.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

I think there is some misunderstanding. I would refer Deputies to the section. It was never suggested that half-bred Shorthorn bulls were of an unsuitable type for any district in Limerick or Tipperary.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

Or County Kerry?

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

They are unsuitable for certain districts in Country Kerry; but that is not the point. The point Deputies Hogan and D'Alton make is, that there seems to be an intention on the part of the Ministry to prevent half-bred Shorthorn bulls from standing in Limerick or Tipperary. There was never any such intention.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I said Kerry, also.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

Might I finish? We ought to be at least clear on what the section means. As it stands, there is no intention, nor is there any warranty in the section for such an intention, to forbid a half-bred bull in Limerick or Tipperary or any of the Midland counties. Of course, half-bred bulls will have to be allowed to stand.

Mr. WILSON

There is nothing to prevent them. There is nothing in the Bill objecting to half-bred bulls.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

There is nothing whatever except this: "The Minister may refuse to grant a licence for a bull which appears to be of a breed or type unsuitable for the district." Does Deputy Wilson suggest that a half-bred Dairy Shorthorn bull is unsuitable for Limerick?

Mr. HOGAN (Limerick)

The allocation of the bull to any is in the hands of the Department. I do not want to leave it in the hands of the Department.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

Would the Deputy suggest some amendment to meet the point? If the Deputy is really afraid that the Department is going to prevent a half-bred Shorthorn bull from standing in Limerick, could he not suggest an amendment to meet that point? He could suggest an amendment which will cover the case of a Galloway bull in Kerry or an Aberdeen Angus or a Shorthorn in Kerry. We, at least, ought to have this much made clear, and let us understand what we are aiming at. Do Deputies suggest we ought to allow the Shorthorn to stand in Cahirciveen?

Mr. HOGAN (Limerick)

Under the Bill they can if they are pure-bred.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

If that is so, I would like to have that stated. I would like to hear the Deputies on the Farmers' benches saying they think the Shorthorn bull should be put on a Kerry cow. If that is not their intention let us have the matter made clear. The intention of sub-section (d) is merely to give the Department power to prevent an Aberdeen Angus or a Dairy Shorthorn from standing in Cahirciveen. Do Deputies object to that? That is the first question to decide. Is it right to prevent an Aberdeen Angus or a shorthorn from standing in Cahirciveen, where you have everybody with Kerry cows, and in a district where the Department has been developing the Kerry cow for a long period? If Deputies agree that we should not allow an Aberdeen Angus or a shorthorn to stand in Cahirciveen, let us have that point decided, and let us try and fix some form of words which will make it clear that half-bred shorthorn bulls can stand in Limerick.

It was with that end in view that we drafted the section in the form in which it is. Under the section as it stands the Department may allow a half-bred shorthorn bull to stand in the County Limerick, and they have power to prevent the same class of bull from standing in Cahirciveen, County Kerry. There is no dispute between us, unless Deputies think that the owner of a herd in the County Kerry ought to be allowed to bring a half-bred shorthorn or a half-bred Aberdeen Angus bull into that county.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I will answer that. The private owner of a herd may have a herd of half-bred Shorthorns in the County Kerry. As the Bill stands at present he could not bring a half-bred Shorthorn bull there. He could not have such a bull for the purposes of his own herd, and I see no reason why he should not be allowed to do so. I do see a reason, however, why such a bull should not be allowed into that county for the purpose of serving cows in the neighbourhood. The point is, that if a man in the case of his own herd wishes to go in for a special type of breed he could not do it under this section.

Mr. JOHNSON

The emphasis in this matter should be laid on the use of the word "exclusively." I think Deputy Heffernan fails to realise the great risk that is involved in his proposition. If the owner of a herd is entitled to use, say, a half-bred Shorthorn bull in a herd in Kerry, there is very considerable risk that the bull will be used outside his own herd, and, therefore, the difficulty of confining it exclusively is a very great one, if the bull happens to be sent into a populous area. There is considerable protection, however, when the use of such a bull is confined to pure-breds, because the cost of service will be greater, and more particularly because the owner of a pure-bred bull, in a private herd of that kind, is not going to allow his bull to be used for general service, so that there is a protection there in the case of a pure-bred. There is very little protection if you have a half-bred in a populous area, and, therefore, I think the proposal of the Minister is necessary to keep a safeguard on pure-bred bulls used exclusively for the service of cows the property of the owner. If you do not keep in the word "exclusively" you are running a great deal of risk and destroying the purpose of the Bill. Again, if you delete the words "pure-bred," you are running a great deal of risk, and I think you must include the words "pure-bred" and "exclusively."

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I did not suggest the deletion of the word "exclusively."

Mr. JOHNSON

But other Deputies did.

Mr. BAXTER

The Minister is claiming credit for the Department for the standard that has been successful in raising the quality of the Kerry breeds. He has not had the assistance of such a measure as this to do that, and, therefore, he must have had very cordial co-operation from the farmers down there.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

We got a lot more co-operation in Kerry than in the County Limerick.

Mr. BAXTER

The Minister now makes Kerry the centre of gravity for his attack on the arguments advanced by Deputy Heffernan. If so much success has been attained so far in this effort by the Department, it is, I suggest, because of the co-operation given by the farmers down there. If a farmer down there establishes another herd and feels he needs an animal of a different type to the types already in the locality, there is going to be more harm wrought by the Department in preventing that breeder getting such an animal than is likely to arise from the use of that animal in herds outside. Men who have cattle of the Kerry breed and who are anxious to improve their quality are not likely to permit an animal to be used for their cattle now which they would not permit so far. I think the Minister himself is contemplating a possibility that is not likely to arise. If there is to be a balance on any side it ought to be on the side of liberty to the individual to take an animal in that is of a sufficiently good type.

Mr. M. DOYLE

If the case is as it has been put forward by Deputy Heffernan that this half-bred bull is not to be allowed, I believe that the Minister is to a certain extent interfering with the liberty of the breeder. I have not read the Bill very thoroughly, but the Minister said, I think, that such is not the case at all. If he is, however, going to prevent the breeder from using this bull exclusively for his own herd, there is no doubt whatever that he is interfering with the liberty of that breeder by compelling him to introduce pure-bred bulls. Personally, I am in favour of the pure-bred bull. I prefer him to a mongrel of any sort. If the case is as put forward by Deputy Heffernan, I certainly think the Minister is interfering with the liberty and right of a breeder, if he has a fad in a particular direction.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

Deputy Doyle has put the case fairly when he said "if such is the case." I would ask Deputies to read the section. The Minister "may" refuse to grant a licence under this Act in respect of any bull which appears to be of a breed or type unsuitable for the district in which it is kept. In the case of a pure-bred bull, the property of one person, and used exclusively for the service of cows the property of that person, the Minister "shall" not refuse to grant a licence under this Act except on the grounds mentioned in sub-section (1) of this section.

Mark the words "may" in the first sentence and "shall" in the next. Deputy Heffernan's suggestion is that the amendment which stands in the name of Deputy Duggan and which is to come on afterwards should read as follows: In the case of a bull, leaving out the word "pure-bred," the property of one person and used exclusively for the service of cows the property of that person, the Minister "shall" not refuse a licence. That is what the amendment means exactly, and we must be taken to mean what we suggest in our amendments. Deputy Johnson suggested yesterday, and I agree with him, that this section might be re-drafted, that it might be re-drafted on the lines of providing that, in certain circumstances, the Minister "may" refuse, and that in certain other circumstances, the Minister "shall" refuse. For instance, the Minister may refuse to grant a licence for a breed or type unsuitable for a district, but he shall refuse to grant a licence for a bull affected, say, by contagious disease. I expressed my readiness to change the section to meet Deputy Johnson's views. I would ask the Dáil to consider the changed section. You would first of all find that the Minister "shall" refuse to grant a licence in certain circumstances such as contagious disease, etc., and that he may refuse to grant a licence in certain other circumstances.

You would have exceptions in favour of a pure-bred bull. But still, in the case of a pure-bred bull he "shall" not refuse the licence, but in the case of a half-bred, not a cross-bred bull—and we should not mix up the half-bred and cross-bred—in the case of a half-bred bull he may refuse. Why take away the powers that we may refuse if we think well to refuse the licence for the half-bred in certain districts? Can we limit ourselves any further than that? Do Deputies think it right?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I do.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

Does Deputy Heffernan really suggest that we should bind ourselves beforehand to agree, in all circumstances, that Aberdeen Angus bulls should be brought into Kerry, or Hereford bulls should be brought in?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

Yes, if the bull is kept exclusively by the owner for his own herd.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

Carry that further, and what does it mean? It means that although we are absolutely certain that this bull is going to serve, not only the owner's herd, but cows in the neighbourhood, we are to be allowed no discretion, but we must give him a licence, whether we consider the bull is used exclusively for the owner's herd, whether half-bred or not. Deputy Baxter shakes his head, but surely the section reads "may refuse."

Mr. HEFFERNAN

If you inserted "half-bred" we would be certain that you would allow it in.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

That is not the point. The point I make is this, that we cannot allow ourselves to be coerced by Act of Parliament into permitting an untried half-bred bull into a district ostensibly for the purpose of serving cows of one owner when we are absolutely certain that he is going to serve the cows of the parish. We should at least have some discrimination. Where we are certain there is a bona fide application from the owner of a dairy herd of Shorthorns in Kerry for a half-bred bull, we have power under the Bill to give him that half-bred. But suppose 8 or 10 persons are getting half-bred Shorthorns, and we know they are to serve not only Shorthorns of particular herds but the cows of the parish, are we not to be in a position to prevent that?

Mr. BAXTER

Are the people doing that now in these districts?

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

No; not to any extent.

Mr. BAXTER

They are not doing that now when there is no legislation whatever to prevent them doing so. That is our point.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

Deputy Baxter is really too innocent. He asks are they doing it at present? They are not, but times change. An Act of Parliament is not just for the present circumstances; it is with a view to putting into operation a scheme that will last for many years, and the only point between us is this. All we are claiming to do in this section is to have power to prevent a man who wants to bring a half-bred Shorthorn or an Aberdeen Angus into Kerry from doing so when we know that the bull is going to serve cows not only belonging to the man himself but to the whole parish. Is that right? We have power to allow a Shorthorn half-bred or Aberdeen Angus into Kerry where we are quite sure that the bull is to be used exclusively for serving the cows of the owner's herd.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

The Minister always takes his stand upon hypothetical cases. He acknowledges such bulls are not brought in and used in the manner suggested. But despite the fact that no such case exists he persists in forcing his power. I would myself quite agree to a penalty where a bull of this type is brought in and used to serve cattle other than the cattle of the owner. I would agree to such a section. But why ask to put restrictions on the liberty of the individual as to the type of cattle he desires? I understand the Minister's point of view and I quite understand the difference between "may" and "shall."

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

The Deputy says that I am depending upon hypothetical cases. It is the difficulty of retrospective legislation. Deputy Cooper made the same point as if it was a new discovery. I thought it was a fairly sound principle that you should not legislate for what has already occurred. All legislation is for hypothetical cases. This is only so many words. Of course it is for hypothetical cases. The whole aim of this Bill is hypothetical. We are aiming at bringing the milk supply from 400 gallons per animal per year to 600 gallons. That is hypothetical and it will remain hypothetical unless we get the co-operation of the farmers of the country. Deputy Heffernan shakes his head. He is one of the sanguine people who does not hope to get that result. I am one of the sanguine people who believe the result will depend upon the farmers. We are aiming at something which can only come into existence with their co-operation and to say that we are dealing with hypothetical cases is quite true, but it is true of every Act of Parliament.

Mr. GOREY

I have no illusions as to this section. I do not read it in the same way as other Deputies on these benches. The only thing that seems confusing is the amendment of Deputy Duggan. I think it would clear the air if the words "pure-bred" were to read "half-bred" because the dairy Shorthorn is a half-bred.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

That is our case.

Mr. GOREY

It is not your case. It is not put in that way, and if it is it was badly put.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

I would like to point out to Deputy Gorey that if I did insert the words "half-bred Shorthorn" I would be doing something which Deputies on his own benches have admitted would be wrong. No one will stand up here and openly say he would allow a half-bred Shorthorn into the County Kerry.

Mr. BAXTER

For the exclusive use of the owner?

Mr. GOREY

Let me give an illustration. Under this Bill a breeder in Cahirciveen is allowed to take a pure-bred Angus, a pure-bred Shorthorn, but he is not allowed to take a half-bred which is a dairy Shorthorn. That is the distinction.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

He is.

Mr. GOREY

If you put in the words "or half-bred Shorthorn," which is the dairy Shorthorn, the whole thing is got over.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

Supposing the Department got 20 applications for half-bred Shorthorns from one district in Cahirciveen, do you really wish to coerce us to give licences in every one of these cases?

Mr. GOREY

No, I agree that you should have discretion.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

That is the way the Bill is worded. We say we may or may not because "may" implies "may not."

The Committee divided: Tá, 30; Níl, 8.

Tá

• Earnán de Blaghd.
• Seoirse de Bhulbh.
• Bryan R. Cooper.
• Louis J. D'Alton.
• Séamus Eabhróid.
• Patrick J. Egan.
• David Hall.
• John Hennigan.
• William Hewat.
• Tomás Mac Eoin.
• Risteárd Mac Fheorais.
• Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
• Liam Mac Sioghaird.
• Martin M. Nally.
• Peadar O hAodha.
• Mícheál O hAonghusa.
• Criostóir O Broin.
• Risteárd O Conaill.
• Partholán O Conchubhair.
• Mícheál O Dubhghaill.
• Peadar S. O Dubhghaill.
• Eamon S. O Dúgáin.
• Seán O Laidhin.
• Aindriú O Láimhín.
• Séamus O Leadáin.
• Fionán O Loingsigh.
• Pádraig O hOgáin (Gaillimh).
• Seán M. O Súilleabháin.
• Caoimhghín O hUigín.
• Patrick W. Shaw.

Níl

• Pádraig F. Baxter.
• John J. Cole.
• Seán de Faoite.
• Patrick J. Mulvany.
• Seán O Duinnín.
• Mícheál R. O hIfearnáin.
• Domhnall O Mocháin.
• Pádraig K. O hOgáin (Luimneach).

Amendment declared carried.

Question—"That Section 3, as amended, stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

I move to report Progress.