Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 18 Nov 1924

Vol. 9 No. 12

DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL, 1924.—COMMITTEE (RESUMED).

SECTION 12.

(1) A board of health may from time to time appoint such and so many committees as they think fit for purposes connected with the exercise or performance of any of the powers, duties and functions transferred to the board by or under this Act which in the opinion of the board would be better or more conveniently regulated or managed by or through a committee.

(2) A committee appointed under this section may be either a general committee empowered to exercise or perform powers, duties, and functions in relation to the whole of the county health district or a local committee empowered to exercise or perform powers, duties, and functions in relation to a limited portion only of the county health district.

(3) Every committee appointed under this section shall consist of not less than three members, and may be composed either wholly of members of the board of health or partly of such members and partly of other persons.

(4) The acts of every committee appointed under this section shall be subject to confirmation by the board of health, save that the board may with the sanction of the Minister empower any particular committee to do any act (including the institution of legal proceedings) within the authority conferred on the committee by the board which the board itself could lawfully do.

(5) The quorum, procedure, and place of meeting of any committee appointed under this section, and the area (if any) within which any such committee is to exercise its functions, shall be such as may be appointed by regulations to be made by the board of health with the approval of the Minister.

(6) Save as is authorised by this section, it shall not be lawful for a board of health to delegate any of its powers or duties to a committee.

(7) The provisions of this section shall apply to every board of health and public assistance in the performance of their duties under a county scheme in the same manner as they apply to such board in the performance of their duties under this Act notwithstanding anything to the contrary in such county scheme.

Mr. COLOHAN

I move: Before Section 12 to insert a new section as follows:—

(1) A board of health shall at its first meeting after it has been elected and at each annual meeting thereafter appoint a committee, to be known as a Public Assistance Local Committee, for each area for which a rural district council was in existence on the appointed day and for each urban district within the area of the board of health or for each of such other areas as the board may think expedient.

(2) Every committee appointed under this section shall consist of not less than three members, and may be composed either wholly of members of the board of health or partly of such members and partly of other persons.

(3) The duty of every committee appointed under this section shall be to advise and assist the board of health in the relief of the poor in the area for which it is appointed. Save as may be otherwise determined by the board of health, the acts of every committee shall be subject to confirmation by the board of health.

(4) The procedure, quorum and place of meeting of every committee appointed under this section shall be prescribed by the board of health.

Section 12 is optional: this is mandatory. It compels the board of health to appoint local committees for public assistance (Home Help and Poor Relief generally). The areas of the committee will be urban districts and rural districts or such other areas as the board of health finds more convenient. The inconvenience and delay, resulting in avoidable hardship, due to regulating home help from one centre for a whole county, are obvious, and therefore it should be made obligatory on the board of health to appoint as many committees as may be necessary to look after the interests of the poor. The exact powers of the local committee are left to be determined by the board itself, which may give them a limited direct authority, or make them merely advisory. The provision in Section 12, bringing in the Minister in defining the authority of Committees, is omitted from this new section, but the Minister will probably want to bring it in. I think that the Minister will see the necessity for making it mandatory on the board of health to appoint committees in their various areas. Otherwise we will have great hardship amongst the poor.

MINISTER for LOCAL GOVERNMENT and PUBLIC HEALTH (Mr. Burke)

I cannot accept this amendment. To begin with, in the very beginning of the amendment the Deputy uses the expression "Board of Health.""Board of Health" is an inclusive term; it includes the Board of Public Assistance and the Board of Health. The Board of Health and Public Assistance does provide for home help or for outdoor relief, but the Board of Public Health does not, and accordingly it would have to be amended in that respect, even if I could accept it otherwise. The amendment also provides for making use of the original rural district area as an administrative area. One of my great objections to leaving in the District Councils is that as administrative areas they are impossible. In practice at present the Rural District Council is either too large or too small, and it is impossible to devise any code of rules or regulations that will apply equally and give equally good results to both.

Mr. COLOHAN

On a point of explanation: sub-section 1 of the amendment states other areas, as the Board may think expedient, may be set out.

Mr. BURKE

I was only just drawing attention to that point about the rural district councils. I am opposed to stereotyping the kind of committee we are going to appoint under this Bill; I want to leave it as elastic as possible. At the outset it is very hard for us to say what way those committees would work out, and it would be very foolish to lay down any hard and fast lines. But the main objection to accepting the amendment is that it is really, in the spirit if not in the letter, outside the scope of this Bill. This Bill is not intended to deal with Home Assistance at all. It should really come under the Local Government (Temporary Provisions) Act, which will have to be made permanent in another form, perhaps, later on. I am setting up a Commission to deal with this whole question of Home Assistance and Poor Law in general. I have the Terms of Reference, and I expect to have it set up in a few days. It would be stultifying that committee to anticipate its findings by setting up any committee of this kind. It is essential to leave provisions for Home Help to be dealt with by an Act that will take within its purview Home Assistance and Poor Law in general. Therefore I cannot agree with this amendment.

Mr. MORRISSEY

To say the least of it, it is rather amusing to hear the Minister talking about leaving this measure as elastic as possible; some of us think that it could not be more rigid than it is. I want to support the amendment because I think it is absolutely necessary in the administration of Home Help that you should have committees that will know the local circumstances and that will know how the people who apply for Home Help are situated. It is very necessary for this reason: numbers of people apply for Home Help; some of them who want it badly, some of them, I am prepared to admit, apply for it, but perhaps do not need it, and very often the people who could get on without it get it from the County Board of Health, and those who require it badly do not get it. The only way, to my mind, that you can decide this matter is by having some committee such as Deputy Colohan suggests, which will be conversant with the position of the people who claim Home Help. The Minister made a suggestion that I could not understand; he suggested that this amendment was not relevant to the Bill at all.

Mr. BURKE

Neither is it.

Mr. MORRISSEY

He said that the Bill has nothing whatsoever to do with Home Assistance. I am more than surprised to hear that. The Minister then told us that it is his intention to set up a Commission on Poor Law. It is a pity that the Minister did not think of doing that before he brought in the Bill. I suppose as a result of this Commission we will have a Bill somewhat similar to this in a few months' time. I certainly say, from what little experience I had of local bodies, that if you want to have Home Help properly administered and if you want to prevent abuses in its distribution, it is absolutely essential to have local committees. I think the Minister, or his officials, should know that as well as anybody else, and there should really be no necessity to stress this point. I submit that the amendment is quite relevant to the Bill and that Deputy Colohan was perfectly in order in putting it down, and I therefore support him.

Mr. COLOHAN

I cannot understand the statement made by the Minister that this amendment is not relevant to the Bill. In sub-section 7, Section 12, it is stated:—

"The provisions of this section shall apply to every board of health and public assistance in the performance of their duties under a county scheme in the same manner as they apply to such board in the performance of their duties under this Act notwithstanding anything to the contrary in such county scheme."

How that squares with the Minister's statement I do not know.

Mr. BURKE

It applies to every Board of Health and Public Assistance, but not to every Board of Public Health. There are two in the present Bill. Provision can be made under the Local Government (Temporary Provisions) Act for a committee such as the Deputy suggests, if it was advisable to do that. It could not be made under the present Bill. Poor Law is not being dealt with under this Bill at all, it is dealt with under the Local Government (Temporary Provisions) Act, but, as I say, we have found that that Act in all respects has not given the utmost satisfaction. We are setting up a Commission to inquire into the working of that Act, and on the report of the Commission we are going to introduce a further Bill. The following are the terms of reference.

With the object of devising permanent legislation for the effective and economical relief of the sick and destitute poor. To inquire into the laws and administration relating thereto, and particularly as regards the following matters:—

1. To inquire into the adequacy and suitability of schemes which have been formulated under the Local Government (Temporary Provisions) Act and make recommendations.

(2) To advise as to whether the existing Law and Regulations as regards home assistance require alteration towards securing that due provision is made for the sick and destitute poor in their own homes without avoidable wasteful expenditure on healthy persons who are incorrigibly idle.

3. To examine the law and administration affecting the relief of the following destitute classes and to make recommendations:—

(a) Widows and their children.

(b) Children without parents.

(c) Unmarried mothers and their children.

(d) Deserted children.

4. To inquire into the existing provision in public institutions for the care and treatment of mentally defective persons and to advise as to whether more efficient methods can be introduced, especially as regards the care and training of mentally defective children, due regard being had to the expense involved.

5. As regards cost of relief of the destitute poor generally to inquire as to whether any change in law is desirable towards securing more equitable chargeability on local rates for persons who, having been in fact normally resident in one poor-relief district, have become a charge upon the rates of another district.

In these terms of reference the question that is exercising Deputy Colohan's mind will be dealt with. It would not fit into the present Bill at all. It would be absolutely out of place.

Mr. COLOHAN

Does the Minister then propose to withdraw Section 12, or perhaps the whole of Part II, until the Commission he is about to appoint reports?

Mr. CORISH

I did not quite catch what the Minister said in regard to mental hospital cases. Is he going to deal with the question raised by me recently, as to the conveyance of lunatics whose relatives are unable to pay for their removal?

Mr. BURKE

The whole question of lunacy will be inquired into under the terms of reference.

Mr. CORISH

I know, but I would like to make that absolutely definite. A lot hinges on the interpretation the Chairman will place on the terms of reference.

Mr. BURKE

I think this is sufficiently wide to meet the Deputy's point:—

To inquire into the existing provision in public institutions for the care and treatment of mentally defective persons and to advise as to whether more efficient methods can be introduced, especially as regards the care and training of mentally defective children, due regard being had to the expense involved.

Mr. CORISH

In connection with the amendment, I am really at a loss to understand the attitude taken up by the Minister in this connection, because boards of public health are mentioned all through the Bill and public assistance is mentioned all through the Bill — in Sections 9 and 7 and various other sections. In view of the fact that the constitution of a public health board is being altered and that the number of people who will form it in the future will be entirely different, I think we should be entitled to discuss this question of local committees at this stage, and I certainly do not agree with the Minister that it is out of order. It is all very well to talk about Commissions, but my experience of Commissions set up by this House is that the Government have always been against the findings of the Commission and it has taken a considerable time to get any legislation passed in accordance with the deliberations of any Commission set up. I think the Minister will find that it is absolutely essential, if he gives this matter the consideration it deserves, that local committees should be formed in order to go thoroughly into the question of home help or outdoor relief, as it was formerly known. The poor are not getting the attention they should get. Everybody in the Dáil is conversant with the situation that prevails throughout the country to-day. We have abnormal unemployment. We have people who think they are humiliated by having at all to apply for what is called outdoor relief. The constitution of the county board of health in the different counties at present is not really representative of the different areas, and in consequence of that large numbers of people are being unconsciously neglected. Boards of health have been appointed by the county councils, and the strongest party on the councils saw to it that nominees of their party got the largest representation. It is not by area that the representation is gained on the county board at all.

I think the Minister would do well, even it were only as a temporary arrangement, to agree that a committee such as Deputy Colohan suggests, should be set up in the different areas. The proposal in the Bill is that a county council, immediately after its election and at its first meeting, shall proceed to appoint a committee or a public health board, consisting of seven or nine members, but there is no provision made for any particular area to get representation on that committee. The Minister may say it is not necessary. I think he will agree with me that a county committee in any county will be composed of a majority of rural representatives. That may be right or it may be wrong, but where you have large towns in a county with a population of 11,000 or 12,000, I think these towns ought to have direct representation on the committee, because the rural representatives will not be in touch with the conditions prevailing in an urban centre. They will be very little interested in the conditions that obtain in one of these towns, because they will have enough to do to look after the interests of their own area in a scattered rural district. I urge the importance of giving direct representation on these committees to urban centres. In many of these urban centres you have a great deal of congestion. You have hundreds of people unemployed and on the verge of starvation. Therefore I say it is necessary that these towns should have direct representation on the committees. In my opinion committees should be specially set up to deal with these cases in the towns. At present they are not being attended to. The Board of Health only meets once a month, and it is pitiable to see these people, Saturday after Saturday, outside the doors of the places where the relieving officer gives out the relief. If the Minister were in touch with the different areas in the country he would know that it is absolutely necessary that something on the lines suggested by Deputy Colohan should be set up in order to relieve the present situation.

Mr. HALL

I feel that when the Minister rises to speak on this matter, he will endeavour, by some means or another, to pick holes in the arguments put forward by Deputy Corish, particularly in regard to the Deputy's arguments in favour of direct representation for urban areas. As I understand it, towns which have an urban authority to control their affairs are represented on the Board of Health, but there are other towns which are not, so to speak, urbanised, but which are almost as thickly populated as the others, and these have no representation on the Board of Health. In my opinion, a committee to administer home assistance is very necessary at the moment. I have a good deal of experience of this, and if the Minister himself has not experience of it, many of the higher officials in his Department have. I have been acting on a committee that came into being since the amalgamation scheme was put into operation in the county I live in. Since I was elected on that committee I have found that we could not get the people who are supposed to be the elected representatives of the people to function on behalf of the poor. We could not get them to turn up to do their duty in accordance with the mandate that was given to them when they took their seats on a public board, either as guardians or district councillors. Some of the higher officials in the Minister's Department are, I am sure, familiar with one instance that happened down in the County Meath. A meeting of the Home Assistance Committee was called on seven different occasions, but on each occasion a quorum failed to turn up. A quorum consists of five members out of a total of thirty-four. On the seventh occasion only three members attended, and these three decided to go ahead with the business and to ask the Department to sanction the decisions they arrived at. The Department of Local Government must be familiar with that instance, because of the fact that they sanctioned what the committee of three had done. I happened to be the chairman of the committee myself.

There is no use in trying to blind people by saying that the committee proposed in the amendment of Deputy Colohan is not necessary. I say that such a committee is necessary, because of the fact that the people who constitute the Boards of Health at the present day are not people who, in the lowest possible sense, care twopence for the interests of the unfortunate destitute poor who, unhappily for themselves, have to depend on the administration of these men. If the Minister refuses to accept this amendment then he will be indicting himself in the same manner as the public representatives to whom I have referred. There are thirty-one members of the County Meath Home Help Committee who refuse to come in and do their duty to the destitute poor, men who never come in there except when a job is to be given away. I repeat that a committee such as Deputy Colohan suggests is very necessary at the present time, and I see no reason why the Minister should refuse to accept the amendment that has been proposed.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I am in a bit of a fix about this amendment. The Minister says it does not apply to the Bill. If such is the case, then I think it should have been ruled out of order and not discussed at all. As, however, the amendment has been discussed, I desire to say that I support, to a certain extent, but not altogether, the general idea contained in the amendment. That idea is that committees should be set up to deal with local matters. That is an idea that would apply, not only to home help, but to other matters under the Local Government Bill, such as local roads, cottages and things of that kind. I maintain that if local work is to be adequately looked after, you must have local representatives on committees such as have been suggested. There is the danger that, with a comparatively small board of health, you may have large districts in a county which will not be represented at all. It will be obvious to anyone who knows the conditions in a county that, in dealing with a matter of home help, the most important thing is a knowledge of the local conditions. As things are at present, this matter of home help is left almost entirely in the hands of a paid official. You have a Superintendent of Home Help whose district covers a large section of a county, in some cases, I believe, a whole county. The allocation of home help lies almost altogether in his hands, and in some cases it might lie altogether in his hands in certain districts. I think that such should not be the case, because we have not sufficient confidence in these officials, and particularly in the type of officials who have been appointed to these positions down the country.

I look at the matter not altogether from the point of view of Deputy Corish. I recognise that, naturally, people who require help treatment should get it. But another aspect is to see that the ratepayers' money is not wasted in giving help treatment to people who are not deserving of it.

Mr. CORISH

On a point of explanation, Deputy Heffernan says he does not altogether look at this matter from the same point of view as Deputy Corish. He does not want people's money wasted, but I do not think that anyone would suggest that I want to waste people's money. I am as careful of the ratepayers' money as Deputy Heffernan is — every bit.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I did not suggest that at all. Deputy Corish's intention was to look after the welfare of the poor. I am interested in the welfare of the poor, but I am interested in the other matter as well. I do not think that the proper hands in which to leave these things are the hands of officials. I think the Minister should consider some system of appointing local committees composed of local people, some perhaps belonging to the county board of health, and others not belonging to it. I believe if you want home help, and such matters adequately attended to, there is only one way of getting it done, and that is by having local committees appointed. Whether they be members of county councils, members of county boards of health, or outsiders, is a question which I think the Minister will agree should have his careful consideration.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

I cannot vote for this amendment of Deputy Colohan because I see no necessity for it. It seems to me that it merely attempts to continue the rural district council representation. I fear, although I am almost afraid to say it, that Deputy Heffernan has not read the Bill because everything that he suggests should be done is, in my opinion, arranged for here under Section 12. Even Deputy Corish's objections are all met with as regards what he wants in regard to local committees. We have a board of health empowered to appoint certain committees. These committees may range over the entire county area, or they may be appointed for other smaller local areas.

Mr. JOHNSON

They "may"?

Sir JAMES CRAIG

Yes, "a committee appointed under this section may be either a general committee empowered to exercise or perform powers, duties and functions in relation to the whole of the county health district, or a local committee empowered to exercise or perform powers, duties and functions in relation to a limited portion only of the county health district." That is to say, if there is a town in the county health district there is no reason why a committee should not be appointed by the board of health. And that is not a thing which is left in the hands of the Minister. It is left in the hands of the board of health to appoint these committees. Surely these committees will have in their mind the appointment of the best type of people who will assist them at the committee work in connection with the smaller local areas. For that reason I say every provision is made. The number of the committee has been settled. Not less than three members shall be appointed to deal with local matters in small areas, or there may be a large committee to deal with public matters. Therefore I see no necessity, as far as areas are concerned, to interfere with the provisions made under Clause 12.

Mr. WILSON

Under the Local (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1923, these local Committees were appointed, and from what I know of them, far from restricting expenditure in giving help, the complaint was that home help had jumped up to the tune of 300 or 400 per cent above what it ought to be, or what it was a few years ago. And then when I hear Deputies in this House saying that the poor are neglected and that people are dying of hunger I cannot very well understand how the expenditure has so greatly increased, and all this destitution that we hear of exists.

Mr. CORISH

I do not know of any section under that Act that Deputy Wilson speaks about that will enable any County Board to appoint any Committee. It was, as a matter of fact, that very Act that scrapped all Committees.

Mr. BURKE

They could do that under the county scheme, and in Deputy Colohan's own county home help was administered through the Rural Councils, and that is why the amalgamation scheme in Deputy Colohan's own county was the only one where a saving was not effected. The average reduction in every other county, with the exception of Kildare, was about 20 per cent. There was no reduction in his county, and we had to take it away from the Rural District Council.

Mr. CORISH

I want to know is that permissible under the Bill, or is it the interpretation of the official, or of the Minister, because I know that a definite express instruction came to Wex-ford County prohibiting the County Health Board appointing such Committees, and getting them to scrap them. Or was it that we were treated differently from every other county?

Mr. WILSON

These committees can be appointed and my experience of them is that instead of leaving people destitute they have been so lavish in their expenditure that the ratepayers had to call on the Minister for Local Government to abolish them, and to let no home help be given except through a proper officer who would see that it was a case of destitution and that such cases were properly dealt with, and at the same time would prevent people getting relief who should not get relief.

Mr. JOHNSON

A Mr. Bumble.

Mr. WILSON

I do not know whether you call him Mr. Bumble or not. I say nobody grudges relief in the case of a destitute person. But those who pay the rates are very much opposed to the present expenditure on home help. It is out of all comparison with what they had to pay under the old régime.

Mr. JOHNSON

I am glad that Deputy Wilson caught the Chairman's eye before I did, and that he was able to explain to Deputy Sir James Craig the real meaning of the opposition to this proposal. Deputy Sir James Craig referred to Section 12 and pointed out that the board of health may appoint committees from time to time; that they may cover certain areas or be given certain powers. What has happened in the case of the county councils? Deputy Wilson has pointed out they may be animated by anything but a desire to fulfil the intention of any legislation of this kind — that is to relieve poverty. The county council may have the authority; it is to be centralised and remains centralised. They may refuse to appoint such committees and they may appoint those officers whose instructions will be to save the rates and let people go into another county or die. They may do these things. I want the Legislature to say that they shall do something and that the implication when you set up local public assistance committees is that the assistance will be given to the poor. The proposition in this Bill is that there shall be set up a board of health and public assistance. That is the title that the Minister wants to give to this Committee, but he says you should not consider the functioning of public assistance committees until the new Commission has considered the whole question and has decided to make recommendations regarding changes in the present law. If we set up a board of health and public assistance, and if in the minds of the Minister these two thoughts are connected, I presume he has the idea that the main bulk of public assistance is related very closely to the protection of public health and the prevention of disease. Sir James Craig, at any rate, will agree with that.

You ask us to agree to the setting up of these boards of health and public assistance and then say that the board of health must have nothing to do with public assistance until a new Commission has recommended a new system of poor law administration. I daresay that the Ministry have heard of the Viceregal Commission on Poor Law, and I think that poor law questions have been considered by Commissions time after time. The schemes of amalgamation set up by the home help committees are all supposed to be emanations from the Viceregal and other Commissions, and why should it be necessary at this stage to set up a new commission into the poor law after all those inquiries, having all their reports in pigeon-holes and pretty well assimilated by the people, and to say that nothing shall be done to alter the present situation until this new Commission has reported and new legislation has been passed. What is the new proposal? It is that we are going to set up under the Bill a new board of health and public assistance committees, but we are not going to make any change in respect of the administration of home help.

The amendment wants to make it obligatory that there shall be local committees advising the board of health, and the board of health officers, in respect of the administration of home help. The function of an officer of the central authority will be, unfortunately, in many cases to save the rates, and the thing that will be impressed upon him more than anything else will be that he must act, and that there must be no local committees unless the board of health may decide that such shall be set up. This board of health is going to be set up by the county council, partly from members of the county council and partly from outsiders. It may be representative of districts or it may not. There is no assurance on that yet. If it is not, the whole authority will reside in the hands of what we will call the local relieving officer, and he is going to be free to act without any consultation with or assistance from any local persons of any kind. That is not going to aid the fulfilment of the purpose of home health schemes. It is going simply to bureaucratise the administration. It is going to put the whole power into the hands of the official, and the inspiration that will move that official will be, "save the rates." The idea in this amendment should commend itself to any Deputies who have any thought of humanising what was known as the poor law. I dare say it is fairly familiar in the minds of Deputies that we have had urgings from one philanthropist and another of the desirability of associating responsibility for the care of the poor with people of the locality. We have had ideas of the Elberfeldt system, and other systems of that kind. This proposal in the amendment is directly in keeping with that, and resistance to it is going far away from that. It is going to centralise and hand over to the relieving officer all authority in the district in respect of the administration of home help, and going to divorce from that human function the people of the locality who know the facts in regard to the poor. I say that the proposal in the Bill, unless it embodies some mandatory provision setting up local committees, is a reactionary one, is a bureaucratic one, and is going to mean a hardening of the heart of the relieving officer against the poor.

Mr. MORRISSEY

I would like to give the Dáil a sort of concrete case which has come within my own knowledge in regard to outdoor relief. The County Board of Health appointed a Superintendent of Home Help who was, in this instance, a man who had no experience whatever of poor law or no previous experience of home help. I do not know for what reason he was appointed. For all I know, it was probably for political reasons, or because, I suppose, he had a good record. The fact, however, remains that he was appointed with a fairly substantial salary — I say this for the benefit of some of our friends on the Farmers' Benches — and he made a visit to a town, went to the local relieving officer and demanded his books. He went through those books and made a visit to the houses of seven or eight recipients of outdoor relief. He came back and cut down the amount of outdoor relief by one-third, a flat rate, without any distinction whatever, without any proper investigation, and without knowing or caring whether he was inflicting a very great hardship on some people. That is a concrete case. People will say that an inspector, when he visits the homes of people who are in receipt of outdoor relief, will be able to decide whether those people should get relief or not, whether their circumstances are such that they could not get on without some public assistance. What I contend is, that it is not possible for a man who goes into a strange town, by looking at the houses and their inhabitants, to say whether these people should get public assistance. An inspector may go to one house which may be in a dilapidated condition and the occupants may look in a very bad way. Taking the appearance of the people and the appearance of their homes into consideration, he may say to himself that these people are in abject misery. The next house which he may visit may be clean and tidy, and its occupants may be clean and tidy, while, as a matter of fact, they may have a good deal less money coming in than these other people who lived under dirty, miserable conditions. I think that any Deputy who has any knowledge of the position of poor people in this country must vote for this amendment because it is absolutely necessary to have local committees of local people who know the circumstances of persons seeking outdoor relief. You are not going to do justice to the ratepayers or to the recipients of outdoor relief under the system suggested in the Bill. With the best will in the world the county board of health cannot decide whether an applicant is deserving or not because they have no knowledge of the circumstances of that person.

Mr. LYONS

I do not wish to give a silent vote on this amendment. I think it is necessary that the Minister should accept an amendment of this description. With regard to the administration of home help, it is not carried out with any satisfaction to the poor, who have to lower themselves to look for it. In nine cases out of ten these people will have to place themselves in the position of absolute beggars, with their hands out to receive alms before they can get the home help. The Minister spoke about setting up a committee to enquire into the whole question of the administration of home help with a view to relieving the distress of the poor. Deputy Wilson said that such committees had been formed by the County Boards of Health, and that they had to be abolished by the Minister for Local Government. I have a fairly long experience of Local Government, and have never yet known of a committee set up by the county Board of Health to go into the question of local administration concerning home help. No such committees have been set up, but it is essential that they should be. This amendment, if accepted, will not mean an increase in the expenditure of the ratepayers' money. If you take County Boards of Health, which might have 48,000 or 50,000 people to look after, how are these bodies to know the circumstances of probably 1,000 or 2,000 applicants for home help? They cannot know the full circumstances to enable them to decide whether or not these people are entitled to home help. What happens is that an inspector is wired to, and he comes and rushes through the town, where there is no representative of the board living. If the person seeking relief can get to the soft side of the Inspector, he or she gets the home help of probably 12/6 or 15/- per week. If proper representatives were appointed in that town, such as the committee suggested in the amendment, they would fully understand the incomings and the outgoings in every house, and would know whether the people were entitled to receive help or not, and in that way there would be a saving. It has been said here that home help has increased by 200 per cent. It has, and by 300 per cent.

Mr. WILSON

Why?

Mr. LYONS

Owing to the amalgamation of the workhouses in a number of cases, and also to the lack of local representatives. I would ask the Minister to accept the amendment, for it is really necessary. He has stated that he has made a saving in counties where amalgamation has taken place, bar Kildare. I would like to know whether or not there has been a saving in Westmeath. I do not think there has been a saving there. It is not the few shillings that you give to the poor in home help that increase the rates; it is the administration that has increased the rates. It has been pointed out by Deputy Morrissey that inspectors are appointed at big salaries. I have to say as regards the people I know appointed in the constituency I represent, that they have tried to carry out their duties to the best of their ability, but they are not able to cover the county. For instance, if there is an urgent case requiring assistance there is no representative of the county home in the town, and a letter or a telegram has to be sent to the inspector, who may live ten or twenty miles away, and the person requiring help will have to live on the neighbour's generosity until such time as the inspector is able to come and look after the case. A person may fall suddenly ill, and an ambulance has to be sent for, and you have to communicate with the inspector, causing perhaps a delay of twenty-four hours, and in the meantime the patient may die. Until you have committees set up, as specified in the amendment, you will not have the work carried out with any satisfaction to the ratepayers or the poor. I strongly support the amendment, and I ask every honest and fair-minded Deputy to vote in favour of it.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

Deputy Johnson has placed me in a rather difficult position by suggesting that anyone who opposes this amendment is really opposed to the giving of relief to the poor. I disclaim that entirely. I am ready and willing to support any proposal by which fair treatment will be meted out to the poor, but I am still unable to see with regard to the word "shall" that any great difference exists between the proposal in the amendment and the proposal in Section 12. The same authority, that is, the public health board, is to appoint a committee and give it a name, but otherwise I see no difference in the appointment of this public assistance local committee. Surely the same class of people would be appointed by the Board of Health as would be appointed under the committee suggested in the Bill? Therefore, I do not see, if they can deal with the subject, why the people who are appointed as ordinary committees cannot deal with the matter in the same way as the committee given a special name.

Mr. JOHNSON

There is no assurance that they will appoint these committees.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

That is a point I am going to make. Deputy Johnson has made the point that the word "shall" should be introduced. I have no objection to that — that it shall be set out in the proposals of the Bill that they shall be appointed, but these committees are to be appointed by the same body, the Public Health Board, and they must be appointed from the same class of people. If those people are opposed to giving the poor proper consideration, I do not see how the amendment will make them give the proper consideration in the one case that they would not in the other. That is my position.

Mr. CORISH

It is very hard to understand the attitude of the previous speaker. Deputy Sir James Craig says there is no difference between the intention of the Minister, as set out in the Bill, and that of the amendment, as proposed by Deputy Colohan. If that is so, I do not see why we should have any hesitancy in accepting and supporting the amendment. Neither do I see why the Minister should not accept the amendment. I could quite understand why he should not accept it, if these committees were to seek to have plenary powers to deal directly with the poor in connection with home assistance. We are doing nothing of the kind. We are making it mandatory on the county councils to appoint committees in the areas to keep in direct touch with the poor, in order that they may get the treatment they deserve. We do not think there is anything revolutionary in that.

That is as much in the interests of the ratepayers as it is in the interest of the poor, because at the present moment you have Relieving Officers and Superintendents appointed in the different areas and I have no hesitation in saying that it is according to the political colour of those particular people that outdoor relief is administered.

Major COOPER

took the Chair.

Mr. CORISH

It is absolutely necessary that committees in each area should hold a watching brief on behalf of the poor and the ratepayers. Anybody in touch with public life week after week knows what is happening. As regards many of the county councils in this State, they would not set up a committee to deal with outdoor relief until they were up against a crisis, or almost on the verge of something approaching a revolution, because of inattention to the poor or because of extravagant expenditure. If the Minister is in earnest in endeavouring to relieve the ratepayers and the poor, he would not have any hesitation in agreeing to the appointment of those committees. We are not asking for plenary powers; we are merely asking for committees to hold a watching brief on behalf of the poor and the ratepayers.

Now, a word to the Farmers. When the Old Age Pensions Act was going through the Dáil we pointed out repeatedly from these Benches that there were some very dangerous clauses in it, and that there was a little more in the Act than the mere cut of 1/- per week. We pointed out that the Minister was taking certain powers which enabled him to cut down the pensions of poor people by considerably more than 1/- a week. The Farmers did not mind that at the time; but I think they found out since that what we said then was true. There is in this case a parallel so far as the superintendent is concerned, and I would ask the Farmers to consider carefully, in the light of their experience since the Old Age Pensions Act was passed, the purport of this amendment. They should approve of it.

Mr. COLOHAN

Knowing as I do the great necessity for the appointment of those committees. I would ask the Minister to reconsider his decision and accept the amendment. It lies with the board of health to use their discretion in defining areas. I know the Minister has an aversion for anything connected with the rural district councils; but could he not find out some other term, such, for instance, as a dispensary area, and could he not let the committees comprise as small a number as three? I think such committees would be able to look after a dispensary area and give greater satisfaction. If you leave it optional with the board of health to appoint committees under Section 12 as it stands, I am afraid many areas will be neglected, and many people will die; but, perhaps, as we have been already told here, they may be let die.

Mr. HUGHES

I want to say a word or two on this matter, because I have heard so many things within the last hour, things which I know myself could not happen in any properly regulated county or properly regulated district. I have never known yet that any officer of a board of health or any other board could override the decisions of that board: he would have to bring matters before them. We have heard it said that a superintendent went to a relieving officer and there and then made certain changes in the books without ever consulting the people concerned. I heard further about glaring instances that have occurred where people were practically allowed to starve, or to die in their homes, because of the callousness of those officers. I do not know in what part of the country those things have happened; but I do know for certain that in the part of the country where I live those things could not possibly happen. The officers that are appointed there are at least humane men and they have power to give relief wherever they think it is necessary, pending a meeting of the board.

The statement has been made here that where a man or a woman would fall sick they could not get relief until a telegram would be sent to the authorities. That is not so. The officer is there in the district and he has absolute power to give whatever relief he thinks right. That is at his own discretion, and he can get that remedied at the next meeting of the board. I am not talking without being sure of my ground in this case. How can it be that those glaring hardships are imposed in any part of the country? As far as the amendment is concerned, I do not think it improves Section 12.

Mr. HALL

Have those officers that the Deputy refers to the power to administer relief in every case?

Mr. HUGHES

Most undoubtedly. If they did not, and if I had anything to do with the board, in a case like that I would have them censured or dismissed. If every man did the same in his own locality, the officers would do their duty fearlessly and honestly by the ratepayers. As regards sub-section (4), it goes much further than the Deputy's amendment, because it gives power——

Mr. JOHNSON

On a point of order, the amendment does not supplant Section 12.

Mr. HUGHES

As far as I can read it, it is practically the same thing, only it wants to do it in a different way.

Mr. JOHNSON

Read it again.

Mr. HUGHES

What the amendment purports to do is to appoint an Advisory Committee to the Board of Health in each district. The Board of Health itself can appoint its committee. It can appoint them partly from members of the Board and from other persons if it so desires. That, in my opinion, is quite wide enough. If the men who are to be elected in the future are going to be men of honesty and probity in their districts, I think it would be perfectly easy to see that every district, urban or rural, is represented on those committees. With proper officers, who will be able to stand the test of public opinion, that system should be quite satisfactory. As far as I can see, from my experience of boards of this description, I think the section is all right and the amendment is unnecessary.

Mr. HALL

If the intentions of Section 12 are as stated by Deputy Sir James Craig, I would like to know why were the district councils abolished. Is it because the district councils had been acting in a manner detrimental to the ratepayers, or does the Minister allege that the reason district councils were abolished was on account of the dishonest manner in which they were administering home help? If that is what is in his mind, I would like him to state it here and now, so that it would go abroad through the country, and every district council, acting as a sub-committee for home assistance, would be branded as they are branded in the Minister's mind, and it would give them an opportunity to clear themselves of such a blackmailing statement.

Mr. SHAW

There are a few points on which I would like to speak. The first one is that as far as the county I represent is concerned, I wish to give an emphatic denial to the statement that politics have anything whatever to do with the administration of home help. There are four inspectors appointed for Westmeath. They report to the Board of Health. They are empowered in the interval from one board meeting to another to administer, themselves, emergency help in any case in which serious hardship arises. They are divided over the county, and if any case of hardship comes up, they are entitled, at once, to relieve that person. In the ordinary course, at the monthly meeting, or fortnightly meeting, as the case may be, a very large number of home help cases come up for consideration, and a large number of such applications for home help comes before the meeting, and they are generally marked "referred to inspectors," because the persons are not themselves in a position to judge as to the position of these people, and there is no getting out of the fact that, in the past, the administration of home help has been grossly abused, to the serious loss of the ratepayers. There is no person in the Dáil or in any other place who would prefer as much as I would to see any person who absolutely requires help, receive it. I am aware that private individuals, persons not members of the board of health at all, were issuing orders for home help. Some of these were giving orders for 15s. or £1 a week to people who already were receiving the old age pension and pensions from the war pensions committee.

Mr. MORRISSEY

That is what we want to prevent.

Mr. SHAW

In the ordinary course, other persons, who were in very serious want, did not receive any home help. Money that was ear-marked for a particular purpose was not being spent on the people who were entitled to it. I would like to ask the Minister, when he is replying, to say if the cases of home help that will come up now at the ordinary meeting of the board of health, will still be considered by the members of the board of health, and whether they will be entitled still to give the superintending officers appointed assistance or help in deciding on cases where persons should be entitled to receive it? There is just one other matter that I would like to touch on, and I would like to mention it to the Minister, and that is that I think the superintending officer should be encouraged, in the future, to give emergency help oftener, and permanent help to a lesser extent because people have been put on at 15s. a week.

ACTING-CHAIRMAN

The Deputy can raise that later.

Mr. SHAW

I would like the Minister to say, when replying, if the board of health will still have the deciding on the matter of home help?

Mr. LYONS

I would like to ask the Minister if he succeeds in getting the Deputies on his own Benches to vote against this amendment, if he will instruct the county board of health that in future they pay home help weekly and not monthly, as at present.

Mr. SHAW

Fortnightly.

Mr. LYONS

Quite so, fortnightly in the town, and monthly in the rural districts. Deputy Shaw is a sport and I will put a fiver on it with him. I want the Minister to understand fully that this amendment is really necessary. It does not matter what Deputy may stand up. Deputy Hughes, a moment ago, said that in his opinion no inspector had to be sent a telegram. I have known telegrams having to be sent to superintendents and inspectors out of the towns. I live in a town where there is no representative of the board of health.

Mr. PETER HUGHES

I would like to ask the Deputy if there was an R.O. in that district or a home help assistant?

Mr. LYONS

There is one living ten miles away. We have not a home help officer in every town. If we had, this would not be necessary. Deputy Shaw remarked, too, that emergency home help was given by nonmembers of the county board of health and that it was a good job it was stopped, as it was a huge increase on the ratepayers. I am one of those who had no authority to give emergency forms for 15/- or £1, but I gave the emergency form. I gave it to a father of twelve children who was lying up for three weeks with nothing coming into his house, and I think were it not that I did that, though I had no authority, not being a member of the board of health, there would be a great deal more loss to the State. If that man died his twelve little children would go to the county home. Why these forms were given to non-members is because the representatives of the county home were not acting in their districts.

Surely somebody must look after the poor. We are not going to allow the poor people to drop dead of starvation in the street. I do not at all agree that Section 12 will cover this amendment, but if this amendment is added before Section 12, then I think it will do as much justice to the ratepayers as it does to the poor person. I am fully assured that every Deputy who has spoken against the amendment realises the necessity of helping the poor. I think that was the object of this amendment, and, I believe, that the mover of this amendment realises the necessity of helping the ratepayers. By accepting this amendment you will help both the ratepayers and the poor, and there will be proper, honest administration and supervision maintained over home help administration.

Mr. P. HOGAN (An Clár)

The more I hear this Bill explained the more I confess I do not understand it. I was surprised to hear the Minister say that discussing home help on this Bill was irrelevant. Why? I think the Bill seems to be drafted more to conceal the Minister's idea of Local Government administration than to express it. If his contention is, that discussing home help at this stage is not relevant, I would like to know what is relevant? What the Minister contends is a virtue is where the Bill just has failed. He does not wish that the districts should be stereotyped and made definite, and their boundaries fixed. He said he would be anxious there would be elasticity as to area. We consider that that is in itself a fault. We consider that all the poor in any area should know in what district their home assistance is to be administered, and that they should know definitely where to look for it. It is quite possible to be so elastic in your arrangements that they will not bear weight. In that case you would have the position that what is everybody's duty is nobody's duty. If you are leaving one district, to say "We have no fixed area; well what is it to us that somebody outside is suffering — they should have some other Committee," you see under that sort of an arrangement the poor will suffer and suffer seriously in the matter of the system for administering home assistance. It is very easily conceivable that the representation would not be equitably divided at all — that is to say, that the districts would not get what one would call adequate and proper representation. I know from experience of Local Government that most of the poor, and most of those who come in under home assistance, come from the urban areas, and it is very well known to everybody who has experience in local affairs that the urban areas have not a very large representation on the county council from which the board of health will be drawn.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE resumed the Chair at this stage.

Mr. HOGAN

Therefore you will find that these people, who are very well informed as to the conditions of the poor in the urban areas, have little or no representation. We found that, in endeavouring to administer home assistance under the amalgamation scheme. In this matter, I must differ with some Deputies who said that there were no local committees appointed. We had to appoint local committees. First of all we appointed the chairmen of the rural district councils, who might give us some information. We found that was inadequate. We added the chairmen of the urban councils, and still found we could not get the necessary information as to who was or was not entitled to home assistance. In the end we found it was almost impossible to get the necessary information. Cases were cropping up daily, as to which we had no evidence either to justify or turn down.

In this connection it is surprising to hear Deputy Wilson say that he was more inclined to believe the officials than to have committees. He told us that home assistance soared to a rate which was 300 or 400 per cent. more than at some other time. I do not know what the other time was; perhaps it was 1914 — the standard we all go back to. It is not a question as to what it should soar to. It is a question of how it should be administered — the just administration of it. If it soars let the committee that is appointed be responsible for that. Let them be in a position to give a proper account of the expenditure. It is a question of equitable and just administration.

Deputy Sir James Craig's argument was directed to the question of "may," and that hinges also on the statement of the Minister that he wants elasticity as to areas. We want it definitely stated that the committee shall be appointed, that they shall function in a certain manner, shall consider certain cases and be responsible, not as a body with full powers to take upon themselves definite action, but to advise the Board of Health as to the particular needs of the poor and destitute in the particular district, particularly in regard to urban areas, where representation on the county council is not likely to be adequate.

In these matters I think it is only right that the Minister should reconsider his attitude towards this amendment. The poor cannot wait until a commission is set up; they cannot wait indefinitely. Commissions may come and go, but the unfortunate poor, we have good authority for knowing, are always with us. If this Bill is an attempt to improve the administration of local government, and relieve the destitute, then this is the one provision which would make for equitable administration, not alone as regards the poor, but those on whom the burden of keeping the poor from utter destitution rests. It is just as necessary for the ratepayer, out of whose pocket the money to support the destitute poor comes, that these committees should be elected, as it is for the poor who are looking for the proper administration of home assistance.

MINISTER for LOCAL GOVERNMENT and PUBLIC HEALTH (Mr. Burke)

We have launched into a discussion on this question which I was anxious to avoid, and I think the turn that the discussion has taken is sufficient justification for my attitude. We see here considerable diversity of opinion as to what is the best method of administration of this very difficult problem. When I introduced the Bill during the last Session, several Deputies were very much in favour of having a commission to consider the whole matter of local government. I explained at that time that the provisions in this Bill were of more or less a skeleton kind, that they could go through without prejudicing in any way other decisions that might have to be come to later on about other matters.

This question of home help and poor relief, generally, is one that requires a good deal of consideration, as appears from the discussion we had to-night. Deputy Johnson referred to the fact that we had commissions dealing with this matter already. We had the Viceregal Commission set up in 1909. But the problem has changed considerably since that time. I might mention only two out of very many factors that have tended to change the problem a great deal. The Old Age Pensions Act was passed subsequent to that, and that has changed the problem of dealing with relief. You have also got the progress in motor traffic which makes it easier to convey poor people to houses for relieving distress. The whole problem is very different to what it was in 1909, and it is better for us to set up a commission to decide what is the best method of relieving the poor, rather than jump into the thing in a careless, slipshod manner like this, without having it fully considered.

I myself have kept practically an open mind on the matter. I do realise that there has been considerable abuse of home help in the past. In very many cases, where the district councils were set up as committees to deal with this matter, there was abuse undoubtedly. On the other hand, I know that in many cases those committees were placed in very great difficulty. Take the case of Kildare in particular. It was a county where, owing to the withdrawal of the military forces, etc., there was considerable unemployment. Perhaps it is a county which has suffered more than any other county. These are problems that have to be considered by committees all over the country, and problems that will have to be taken into consideration by a commission. It is much too big a thing for me to be able to come to a decision on, without getting the advice of people who are in a position to give a considered opinion on the matter. For that reason I was setting up this commission and I want to keep an open mind in the matter until I have a report from the commission.

I do not think that there is any great danger of the people being left destitute as a result of not adopting this amendment. At present you have got your home assistance officer in every area, just as you had relieving officers before. These men should be in a position to know very well the means of the people that they are supposed to relieve. In some respects they may not act as well without committees. In other respects they may act much better. It will do away with anything in the shape of wire-pulling, and there was a great deal of that in the past. As well as that you have your supervising officers going around seeing that these officers carry out their duties in an efficient way. I cannot see that there is any danger of abuse in the present arrangement.

Mr. COLOHAN

Surely the Minister is aware that the number of home help officers in County Kildare was reduced from fourteen to nine, and that at the last meeting of the board of health in Naas, notice of motion was given to appoint another officer for Newbridge? Surely the Minister cannot say that the poor people are looked after in the same way as of old?

Mr. BURKE

I am not familiar with the case that the Deputy puts before us. I know that ample provision is made for the relief of the destitute. As the Act is now administered there is a very grave responsibility on these assistance officers. They are obliged in cases of sudden hardship, necessity, or in an emergency to give relief. If they do not, and if as a result the patient dies, they may be subject to a charge of manslaughter. That is a very heavy responsibility for an officer.

I am not now in a position to express a considered opinion on this matter. I did not think it would crop up and did not intend to discuss it at all. When we bring in a Bill dealing with poor relief it will be more comprehensive than this, and will deal with different matters. I wanted to keep my mind free on the subject. In the meantime, while we have officers with this very heavy responsibility placed upon them, I do not think there is any danger of a serious abuse of home help, either by not giving relief to people who merit it or by giving too much relief.

Mr. JOHNSON

The Minister and other Deputies seem to have failed to realise that this amendment is a proposal to ensure that what is suggested in the Bill as likely to be carried out shall be carried out. The Deputies who opposed the amendment seemed to agree that under Section 12 the board of health, having power to appoint committees, will certainly appoint them. That is the suggestion made by Deputy Sir James Craig and others who have opposed the amendment. The board of health is to be given power to appoint committees, and it is assumed that, having these powers, they will appoint the committees. The board of health is not a body that is certainly going to represent specified areas. It may have representatives of specified areas or it may not. We may have the condition that certain urban areas would have no representation upon it. There may be an officer appointed to administer home assistance. If there is no representative on the board of health from that area there is nothing in the Bill to make it certain that there will be any other authority of any kind except the home assistance officer in the area to administer this service.

If there is anything in the argument that Section 12 provides all that is necessary, and on the assumption that what is hoped for in Section 12 will be carried out, why is there any objection to making it mandatory that in every area — areas which may be rural districts, or urban districts, or may be areas to be defined by the board of health — there shall be a local assistance committee consisting of three persons who may be members of the board of health or otherwise? I would imagine that a proposition of that kind should appeal to anyone who wants to disentangle the administration of home assistance from the old conception of the poor law, the relieving officer and all the rest. The very existence of these county schemes shows that there was an attempt on the one hand to save cost, and on the other to humanise the administration of the poor law. It was pauperism before; it was poor law relief. The very change of name indicated a desire to get away from the old conception of the relieving officer, and bring into the administration of this service the human influence of people in the locality who know the poor and can say whether such a person is worthy and can benefit by assistance, or whether another person is merely sponging upon the public. The amendment seeks to make it mandatory that such committees shall be set up for this service, and that they will be functioning even in the time preparatory to this new Bill which the Minister hopes for in the future.

I think there have been from the benches occupied by Deputies in the Farmers' Party recently a good many criticisms of the substitution of the official in the case of old age pensions for local knowledge. The official goes into the house, looks around, and finds from his observation what is the condition of the old age pensioner. That has been protested against as being something not as valuable as local knowledge — a check upon local knowledge, perhaps a check on any attempt on the part of neighbours to malinger — but nevertheless it has been objected that the introduction and the substitution of the official for the human influence is something objectionable. If that is true — and I believe it is true — the setting up of local committees should surely receive the support of any such Deputy. When the Minister points out that the home assistance officer, if he allows a person to die, is liable to a charge of manslaughter, and that that is the check and the assurance that the home assistance officer will do his duty to the poor, well, it suggests to me that the Minister has not got in his mind the humanising of the poor law. Surely we are going to treat people humanly who are not at the stage where they may die if they do not get treatment? Surely the purpose of this scheme is to prevent people getting to that stage where they may die from poverty, or hunger? If we are to rely on the home assistant officer's fears that a verdict of manslaughter may be his due, and that that only is to be the only stimulus to action, that is all the more reason why we should have a committee of this kind who may be expected to know the circumstances of the person seeking relief, and be able to advise, and, if necessary, check the home assistance officer.

I claim the support for this amendment of all those Deputies who want to humanise the poor law, and who want to bring some human feeling, as against official feeling, into the treatment of the poor on this question of relief. I claim the support of the Deputies who want to ensure that there shall be some equity in the treatment of the poor. If any Deputy is relying on Section 12, and the power that is given by that section to boards of health and public assistance, to appoint committees and if any Deputy hopes and expects that such committees must be appointed because power is given to appoint them there, then I claim the support of those Deputies for a provision which makes the appointment of such committees mandatory. I ask the Dáil to support the amendment and not allow the risk to be run that any area in the country not represented on the board of health will be without anybody but an official to look after the interest of the poor.

Mr. MORRISSEY

I want to make one point in regard to what the Minister said about the officers. He made much play with regard to the efficiency and impartiality of the officers who administered those services. We all know that the principal reason for the amalgamation scheme, which led to the setting up of those county boards of health, was the cry of economy. I put it to the Minister or any member of this House that the natural tendency of the officials who have got positions under the county board of health will be to try and prove that there is real economy in the setting up of a county board of health. Therefore, the natural inclination will be to reduce in all cases the outdoor relief, irrespective of the need of the applicant. That is a fact, because even the Minister himself will tell you that success or failure of the amalgamation system depends on the number of thousands of pounds per year they are able to save.

Mr. PETER HUGHES

Again I am astonished to find that any of those savings supposed to be taking place under the amalgamation of unions are at the expense of the deserving poor. I have not heard that before, and I am sorry to hear that argument now. That argument would not hold water in any civilised community. The argument in favour of amalgamation that I heard was that there were too many officials and too much waste within those institutions. That one argument was put forward when this amalgamation scheme was going through, and I think it was the only argument put forward, because where people got what is known as outdoor relief or home assistance it was never thought that they or their families getting this pittance were parasites on the rates. The people who were always supposed to be the parasites, as far as the arguments here and outside were concerned, were those who formed the large establishment of those institutions — the masters, the matrons, the doctors, the nurses, and all those people. Those people were in charge of a very small number of inmates and the argument was put forward in other places that by putting those latter in a central institution you could give them more assistance at a less cost to the community. believe that can be done without interfering with the people who are entitled to get home assistance.

If it is possible — and I believe it is possible — to give home assistance to people and to keep them out of these institutions altogether, so much the better for the country and for everyone. I have never been in favour of rearing children in institutions or huddling people up in them. It is much better, in my opinion, to keep those people amongst their friends and to give them assistance outside. That is the way I look on this matter, and the argument that people will be let die on the roadside because some board is set up is, I think, the greatest nonsense in the world.

Mr. GOREY

I read this amendment and the section it is proposed to amend and as one who comes from a county where home health has been administered, not quite according to some of the plans or schemes of the Local Government Department, but more or less according to a scheme of its own, I do not see how this amendment is going to improve the situation. The particular health board I am acquainted with is composed of about 32 members, which is, practicably speaking, a County Council, with a few members of the County Council not acting, and a few others nominated. A District Council area, according to the present system, gives three or four representatives to the County Council. The Bill proposes to give a little addition to this.

It is proposed to set up in a district council area a committee of three, to be nominated, not elected. The House decided on a previous amendment to get rid of the district council and not to fit this elected body into the scheme of home help. This amendment is designed to mend the position, but I do not think it mends the position at all. If the district council areas are going to send to the new county councils between four and five representatives, there is no occasion for the committee of three to be nominated to do the work that four or five are elected to do. The argument falls to the ground. If those four or five do not do it, I fail to see how the three will do it. The county council can nominate the whole of their own members on the board of health.

Mr. CORISH

Under this Bill it is only seven.

Mr. GOREY

I do not see how this amendment will mend the position. I do not think three nominees will mend the position. They will be as foreign to the affairs of the district area as the other men. Two or three cannot get over 14 or 15 miles of an area and spend any time in each place. The machinery proposed in this amendment is of no help and I cannot accept it.

Mr. HEWAT

I cannot attach to this amendment the importance that Deputy Johnson gives it with regard to the humanising influence. If the case is that the local people should have a knowledge and take an interest in their local problems, I for one would support that entirely, but as I understand the position, the amendment proposes that under this Bill these boards shall be set up. The reply on behalf of the Minister is that this Bill is creating a groundwork on which the question of the poor law areas will be considered. I do not think that the Minister or the Dáil contemplates that the poor of any district are going to be allowed to run the risk of not having their requirements attended to. That being so, I cannot see that the amendment is a valuable contribution to the question, because making it mandatory to appoint a committee would seem to preclude the possibility of opening up the whole question on proper lines to secure that humanising influence which Deputy Johnson advocates as the proper solution of all those problems.

Mr. JOHNSON

This amendment will not prevent that.

Mr. HEWAT

This will not help towards it. The Bill gives a certain amount of latitude to reconsider the whole question of what areas will be represented and how they may best be represented. The amendment prejudges the whole question by making it mandatory on the county council, when elected, to pursue a certain course. If I were convinced that the amendment would, in any way, tend to people in the country taking a greater interest in their neighbours, so that such cases as have been mentioned here to-day of people dying with hunger could not happen, it would have my heartiest support. But I really cannot see, taking the Bill as a whole, and taking the position as it is, that the amendment is an improvement on the Bill.

Mr. CORISH

Deputy Hewat is at a loss to know how this scheme proposed by Deputy Colohan will help the poor. As a matter of fact, he goes so far as to say that it will not help the poor, and that without having any knowledge, in my opinion, of the exact situation so far as the treatment meted out to recipients of outdoor relief and home help is concerned. What I would like to ask the Minister is: Whom does he suggest the poor should approach in order to get home help? At the moment, none of the relieving officers, so far as I know, has any definite place where he meets the poor. In the majority of cases the relieving officer appears in the town on Friday or Saturday, and is engaged the whole day paying outdoor relief to a string of people. The majority of these people are chronic cases, whose names are already on the books. New claimants have no opportunity provided for them to approach the home help officer. They have no opportunity provided for them to get in touch with the county board of health, unless in the particular area where that board meets. What we ask to have provided is a medium by which these people can make representations as to their condition in their own area. Surely that is not too much. If we were asking to have a committee set up with plenary powers, I could understand the Minister's resistance to the amendment. But we are not asking anything of the kind.

I agree with Deputy Johnson when he says that this step would humanise the system and would prompt and enable people to take an interest in the poor. That is not much to ask. I say that this course is absolutely necessary, because it is not now possible for people to get in touch with the relieving officer in the same way that it was when we had a board of guardians and a district council. The Board of Public Health has already too much to do, and the applications that are made there do not get the attention they deserve. The home assistance officer will bring in certain reports to people who know nearly as little about the applicants as the officer himself. That is primarily due to the fact that there are very few people with local knowledge at present on the boards of public health. There will be a lesser number in the future, because these seven or eight county councillors who are to be appointed on the board of public health for the whole county cannot give the attention to the poor that their present position warrants. I would ask, in all seriousness, the Deputies here to consider the position which prevails at present, when we have people on the verge of starvation. If the position was normal, or anything resembling what it was during the war, when practically everybody was working, there would not be the same necessity for this amendment. But at the present moment, when we have abnormal unemployment and — I do not like repeating it — people actually starving, who cannot get in touch with those who could provide them with relief, it is absolutely necessary that the whole House should support this amendment.

Mr. BURKE

One would imagine, listening to Deputy Corish, that we were back in the days before such things as pens and ink were known.

Mr. CORISH

Some of the people are not able to buy even pens and ink.

Mr. BURKE

I never heard of any part of the country where such a state of affairs obtained.

Mr. CORISH

You are not in touch with the parts of the country concerned.

Mr. BURKE

If they have not pens and ink themselves, surely they know somebody who would write a letter for them and get them in touch with the home assistance officer. I am rather surprised at the attitude of Deputy Johnson. I am arraigned before the Bar of this House for my autocratic methods in dealing with local authorities. Now, it is coolly proposed that I am to send down a ukase to the boards of health, insisting that they should set up those committees, whether they are that way inclined or not.

Mr. JOHNSON

I am asking the Dáil to do it.

Mr. BURKE

That is a thing I would not do, even if I were in a position at the present time to take up a definite stand with reference to this question of home assistance, which I am not. Accordingly, I am opposed to the amendment. Deputies on the Labour benches have made considerable play with the contention that county councils are not as representative of urban districts as they are of rural districts. I would like to point out to Deputies that under the present Bill county councils will be proportionately more representative of urban areas than in the past. In the past, the Chairman of every rural council was an ex-officio member of the county council. Under the present Bill you do away with rural district councils, and accordingly you will not have the Chairmen of rural district councils ex-officio members of the county councils.

Mr. JOHNSON

Will the Minister guarantee that the urban districts will have due representation on the boards of health?

Mr. BURKE

That is a point for the urban districts themselves. If they do not look after their own interests, I cannot look after them for them.

Mr. CORISH

Would the Minister say how that could be arranged, in view of the fact that the rural population would be out of all proportion to the urban population?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

If only one Deputy would interrupt at a time the Minister would have a better opportunity of replying.

Mr. BURKE

As the Ceann Comhairle has suggested, it is rather difficult to deal with all this cross-heckling. When the County Councils are setting up their Committees, I have no doubt that they will take into consideration this question of rural and urban district representation. There is no reason why they should not. There is nothing further, I think, to be said on this matter. As I have said, I would prefer not to have it discussed here at all. But it has been forced on me, and there has been a certain amount of cross-talk. We have not got any further with regard to the solution of the home help problem. Taking everything into consideration, I think Deputy Colohan ought to withdraw his amendment.

Agreed to report progress.