Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 19 Nov 1924

Vol. 9 No. 13

DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL, 1924 (THIRD STAGE) RESUMED.

Debate resumed on Amendment 9.

Mr. WOLFE

I do not suppose there is anybody in the Dáil, from the Minister down to the latest elected Deputy, who would not vote for this amendment, if he thought that it would improve the condition of the poor. The amendment is a long one, but I think it could be boiled down to inserting the word "shall" instead of the word "may," in order to make the board of health do certain things in regard to committees. We will presume that the board of health, being elected democratically, are sensible men and would not be likely to choose representatives on these committees without seeing that they more or less represent the different districts of the county. Perhaps I may be classed as laudato temporis acti. Looking back upon the systems I have known for thirty years, I do not know that any of them have been an improvement on the old boards of guardians. So far as they were concerned, they were most democratic bodies. One never heard in those days complaint about the condition of the poor, or anything of that kind. They had nothing to do with districts, or anything of that sort. Their whole time was taken up dealing with poor law relief and practically nothing else. They had nothing to do with the administration of roads. They were democratic bodies. Whatever may be said about the old grand juries, nothing can be said against the old boards of guardians. It was the fault of the people if they were not democratic, and I think their work was extremely well done. The Minister has said that he has an open mind on this matter and proposes to introduce a Bill later on to deal with it and improve on it.

It would be a mistake, I think, therefore, to bind down the board of health — which will probably be altered — to do certain things. My opinion is that there are many matters in regard to poor law relief that can be suggested. That would not be possible if we bind them down and force them to create committees. It may not be necessary to create committees. Other arrangements may be better. It is for this body, that the Minister proposes to set up, to inquire into the matter thoroughly, and to devise the best means by which the interests of the poor shall be seen to. I am not for binding down the Board of Health to any particular scheme in regard to committees until we have the report of the body that is to be set up by the Minister.

Mr. P.K. HOGAN

I go part of the way in support of the amendment, but instead of forming a committee of three in each rural area, and electing them, I would allow the county council to nominate three. In an average county you would have four against nine on the board of health. They would not have the power or privilege of voting. For that reason I maintain we get a better selection of people altogether on the board of health. In the first place you get people who would not go for election, and in the second place people who would not go if they were burdened with voting power. Under a board of health there will be voting for positions from the charwoman to the chaplain. In the different counties you have charitable people who are prepared to devote their time to such work, but who would not go for election.

Mr. JOHNSON

Read Sub-section (2) of the amendment, which provides for that.

Mr. P.K. HOGAN

I do not think there can be any magic in the number 9. I think 3 is too small. The Minister should reconsider the matter, and enlarge the number to one-third of the county council. A board of health of nine for a whole county is altogether too small. I also think that we should introduce the nominated element. I would not give power to vote, as that should be restricted to direct representatives of the people.

Mr. JOHNSON

Deputy Wolfe i afraid to insert in this Bill a provision which would make it mandatory upon the board of health to appoint local committees. He is afraid that it might prejudice the decision of a Committee or Commission which is about to be set up, and which is to report at some future date, and in some future Parliament perhaps a new Act will be passed. I would point out to Deputy Wolfe that nothing that is embodied in this Bill will prevent any future Parliament enacting in any way, even to repeal a provision which we put into this Bill. Nothing that we put into this Bill now will prevent a future Minister proposing an alteration.

We are concerned about the period between now and the enactment which is to follow a report of a committee which is to be appointed. Everything that Deputy Wolfe said about the old boards of guardians shows how valuable a provision this is — that there should be some local persons interested in the administration of home assistance in addition to the officer. Again I suggest that the arguments of Deputy Wolfe go far to support the proposal in the amendment.

Deputy Hogan pleads for some sort of committee which is not elected, but the amendment provides in sub-section 2 that it

"shall consist of not less than three members and may be composed either wholly of members of the board of health, or partly of such members, and partly of other persons."

These committees are to be appointed by the board of health, so that Deputy Heffernan's desire is satisfied by the provision of the amendment. In addition to those I claimed last night, I claim the support of Deputy Wolfe and of Deputy Hogan, as the amendment will fulfil exactly the requirements that both Deputies argued for this afternoon.

Mr. WOLFE

No.

Mr. WILSON

The Bill provides that local committees may be set up and the amendment wants to force the board of health to appoint those committees. I want to speak from experience and to learn from it something to guide us in the future. Those local committees were set up in some districts, with the result that while they were very lavish in dispensing home help, the amount required for their activities could not be obtained from the rates. It is preferable to leave the Bill as it is and give the power to the board to appoint a sub-committee if they like, but not to force them to appoint what in their best experience may be wrong.

There is nothing in the amendment to provide for cases where the sub-committee abuses its powers. I know of a case where a Labour organiser was appointed a member of a sub-committee. He merely used the ratepayers' money to get people to join his organisation, thereby gaining a subsidy every week from the relieved person. I do not say that will happen again, but there should have been provision made for the removal from the sub-committee of persons who are not doing their duty.

Mr. JOHNSON

That is entirely in the hands of the board of health.

Mr. WILSON

You have not provided for it.

Mr. JOHNSON

Certainly we have.

Mr. WILSON

The principle is there, anyway. It can be done by the Bill, and there is no necessity to force the board of health which, I assume, would be composed of commonsense people, to do what they think may not be right or proper. In some areas it might be a good thing to have the sub-committees, and in others it might not. As I have stated already, there is provision in the Bill for the appointment of sub-committees and hence, this amendment is not required and I am going to vote against it.

Mr. P.K. HOGAN

I am sorry I did not make myself clear. Judging from Deputy Johnson's remarks, I did not, but my contention is that nine is too small a number to administer board of health services in a county. I would enlarge the board by a nominated element of three from every rural area. The amendment seeks to have an executive committee of three, but my contention is for a nominated element of three from each rural area in the county to act with the nine members of the board of health. I would not propose to give the nominated element voting powers. From my experience, I believe it would be easy to get a number of charitable men and women, who have time to spare, to act as a nominated element on the board of health. If they had to go up for election and were given the privilege of voting for the different appointments that would occur under the board of health, they would not take the position, but I am certain you would get a lot of people who would allow themselves to be nominated as members of the board for the special purpose of doing charitable work.

Mr. EVERETT

Deputy Wilson referred to a Labour organiser being a member of the commitee. I fail to see why a Labour organiser should be objected to when we have farmers' organizers on these committees. I know cases of organisers employed by Deputy Wilson's party who were members of these committees. They did very useful work with their colleagues from the Labour Party. I hold it is necessary that we should have these sub-committees. I have more experience of public boards than Deputy Wilson, and I know it is a physical impossibility for a home help officer to look after distress in very large rural areas. He must be assisted and guided by the different local sub-committees unless it is the Government's wish to leave full power in the hands of these home help officers. I may say that I believe that is the wish of the Government from letters I have seen at different public boards. The idea of the Government apparently is to give these home help officers the exercise of a certain kind of prerogative and to place them more or less in the same position as commissioners are placed in in the case of dissolved public boards. If that is the Government's intention, I believe it will mean that large numbers of people who are entitled to receive home help, and who are in a state of distress, will be left to starve. Deputy Wilson may laugh and smile at the fact that people who are entitled to receive home help will not receive it. He may think that it is to these people's interests that they should not receive it, but I can assure him that I for one have realised my responsibility here. I say if that is the intention of the Government, backed up by Deputy Wilson's party, then I am not going to be a party to it and I will take other measures in my own area to see that the people I represent will not be allowed to die of hunger.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

I am a little disturbed with regard to this matter. I am quite satisfied that the board of health can appoint sufficient committees, and I would be perfectly satisfied with that if I knew that the committees were going to be appointed, but permissive legislation for Ireland in the past has been a disastrous failure. I certainly feel in the matter that if the boards of health do not appoint these committees it would be a very serious matter to the country. Therefore, I am inclined to vote for the amendment unless I have some assurance from the Government that the health boards will appoint those committees. I think I made myself clear that I would be perfectly satisfied with the committees that are empowered under the Bill to be appointed by the health boards and if I knew that that would be done, I would be satisfied, but Deputy Johnson suggests that it will not be done.

Mr. JOHNSON

I said "may" not be done.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

Well, I am a believing sort of person and am inclined to believe that if permission is given to these boards, that they will not take it upon themselves to try to do all the work but will certainly appoint the committees and committees representative of the various districts. But what is sticking in my mind is the word "may." I would like to feel assured that these committees would be appointed, and I would like the Minister to give some assurance that the committees will be appointed, and if not I would be in favour of the amendment.

Mr. JOHNSON

It would be impossible for the Minister to give that assurance.

Mr. P. HOGAN (Clare)

Deputy Wilson told us that committees previously appointed to administer home assistance increased the expenditure several hundred per cent. Will he tell us what percentage of increase was there in distress over the time he was considering, from the starting point to the point where the increase of 200 per cent. was reached? Had not the distress increased proportionately, or is it his point that in order to prevent the committee doing justice to people in distress, even if there was an increase of 200 or 300 per cent. necessary to meet that distress, that the committees who recognise their duties should be scrapped so that this distress should not be met; and that instead of those committees you should have officers to whittle down the demands of those people rather than committees who should be allowed to do justice? Is that Deputy Wilson's point?

Mr. WILSON

My point is that from the experience of some districts in the past the tendency was for the local committees to be more lavish in the expenditure of public money than they would have been if they were paying the money out of their own pockets. These local committees having the public purse at their disposal and being compelled, more or less, to fall in with local feelings, are not likely to refuse a neighbour and so forth. They began to apply the public purse in such a lavish manner that it was utterly impossible for the ratepayers to carry on. That has been the experience in one district at any rate, to my knowledge, and the result was that public officials had to be appointed to see that people in distress would not be allowed to remain in distress; that their cases would be seen to and that everything should be done that could be done to see that hungry people who ought to be fed should be fed, but that public money would not be used for the purpose of furthering the interest of any class of the community.

Mr. HOGAN (Clare)

The constitution of the committee provides that representatives will be got through the county councils and through the boards of health, or through any other channel. What is to prevent those paying rates getting representation upon those committees? I suggest it is up to Deputy Wilson and others to safeguard themselves by getting representatives on these committees who will look after their interests.

Amendment put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 16; Níl, 33.

Tá

• Séamus Eabhróid.
• Séamus Mac Cosgair.
• Tomás Mac Eoin.
• Risteárd Mac Fheorais.
• Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha.
• Tomás de Nógla.
• Ailfrid O Broin.
• Tomás O Conaill.
• Aodh O Cúlacháin.
• Liam O Daimhín.
• Eamon O Dubhghaill.
• Mícheál O hIfearnáin.
• Seán O Laidhin.
• Domhnall O Muirgheasa.
• Pádraig O hOgáin (An Clár).
• Pádraig O hOgáin (Luimneach).

Níl

• Séamus Breathnach.
• Seoirse de Bhulbh.
• Séamus de Búrca.
• John J. Cole.
• Bryan R. Cooper.
• Sir James Craig.
• Louis J. D'Alton.
• Máighréad Ní Choileáin Bean
• Uí Dhrisceóil.
• Patrick J. Egan.
• Desmond Fitzgerald.
• John Good.
• Seosamh Mac 'a Bhríghde.
• Patrick McGilligan.
• Risteárd Mac Liam.
• Liam Mac Sioghaird.
• John T. Nolan.
• Seán O Bruadair.
• Risteárd O Conaill.
• Conchubhair O Conghaile.
• Séamus O Cruadhlaoich.
• Séamus N. O Dóláin.
• Tadhg S. O Donnabháin.
• Mícheál O Dubhghaill.
• Eamon S. O Dúgáin.
• Seán O Duinnín.
• Donchadh S. O Guaire.
• Séamus O Leadáin.
• Fionán O Loingsigh.
• Pádraic O Máille.
• Risteárd O Maolchatha.
• Seán M. O Súilleabháin.
• Caoimhghín O hUigín.
• Nicholas Wall.

Amendment declared lost.

Mr. LYONS

I beg to move the following amendment:—

"In Sub-section (1), line 1, after the word ‘time,' to insert the words ‘request the county council.'"

I think that Section 12 gives too much power to a nominated body, and the only supervision that the county council has over the board of health is over the estimates. The county council will have to supply the money, but that is the only control it has over the board of health, which is empowered under this Bill to appoint any committee it may think fit. If the Minister accepts this amendment, so that the board of health may from time to time request the county council to appoint such committee as it may think fit, it will be giving the county councils some little control over such committees. The county councils consist of elected representatives of the people. Nine members of the county board of health are representatives of the people but they are nominated by the county council. I think that by giving the county councils the option of appointing such committees you will be holding a certain lever over the board of health. I think that is desirable not alone from the point of view of effecting a great saving but also from the point of view that the proper people will be appointed by the county council, people who, in the opinion of the county council, are capable and suitable to act on such committees. I fail to see why any nominated body should have power to nominate another body, neither of which may contain elected representatives of the people. I have put down the amendment on the instructions of a large number of ratepayers in my constituency and I ask the Minister to accept it, as there is nothing in it to upset the section of the Bill as it stands.

Mr. BURKE

I do not know what the Deputy has in the back of his mind by moving this amendment. The county board of health is to be established for a particular purpose, dealing with public health matters and sanitation and all matters with which the county council have nothing to do. There is no reason why the county council should be allowed to interfere in this manner with the work of the board of health, as that body is in the best position to judge as to what action it is best to take in a particular case. The county council has very considerable control over the board of health in all its duties. It has complete financial control not only over estimates but over all expenditure of the board of health, which is composed exclusively of members of the county council. If at any time two-thirds of the county council wish to have a member of the board of health removed they can do so. I can see no sense in this amendment whatever.

Mr. LYONS

The sense of the amendment is to give the county council better control over committees appointed by the board of health, which is a nominated body appointed by the county council and which has full authority to appoint such committees as it thinks fit. I want the Minister to have the county council appoint these committees. The Minister says that the county council has full control over the board of health. The county council supplies the money to the board of health, but that is really all the control it has over it. I quite agree that two-thirds of the county council can at any time remove a member of the board of health. I think the Minister should accept the amendment.

Mr. CORISH

Like the Minister, I do not see what this amendment proposes to do. On the other hand, I think that it will prevent progress So far as the board of health is concerned, occasion may arise during the progress of a meeting when it may be absolutely necessary for the board of health to appoint a committee. In view of the fact that county council meetings in many counties are very irregular, I do not think it would suit to have the county council appoint these committees. I am opposed to the amendment, and I think that Deputy Lyons, on consideration, will see that it would not work at all in practice.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Mr. LYONS

I propose the following amendment:—

"In Sub-section (3), line 14, to insert after the word ‘three' the words ‘and not more than twelve.'"

The sub-section of the Bill says that every committee appointed under the section shall consist of not less than three members, but I want the Minister to say definitely in the Bill what the maximum number of members would be. I want to insert the words "not more than twelve" so that the board of health when appointing such committees will not appoint everybody in the whole county on them. It is a well-known fact that committees have been appointed consisting of sixteen, twenty or twenty-four members of which probably eight form a quorum, and it is impossible often to get a meeting held.

Mr. BURKE

I cannot accept this amendment. It would be giving me a power that I prefer not to exercise, that is, forcing these boards of health to restrict the number of the members of their committees. In initiating legislation of this kind it is very hard to know how it will work out in practice. In many respects it may often happen that in a particular county there may be occasion to have large committees, and I cannot say at this stage to what number the members should be restricted. I should say myself that twelve would be a small number, but at any rate at present I would not be prepared to fix any number. It should be left to the discretion of the county board of health, and if members of the board have not sufficient sense to know how many members to appoint on the committees, I do not think that I could help them by trying to force my ideas down their throats.

Mr. LYONS

If the county board of health appointed an advisory committee consisting of sixteen or twenty members, would the Minister sanction that number? According to the section they can appoint 300 members if they like. I think that the Minister should specify the maximum number of such committees. Surely it is not giving too much power to the Minister to authorise him to say how many members can be appointed on the committees. I am not one of those who agree with giving too much power to any Minister, and I am sure I would not be giving too much power by this amendment. I think that the Minister should give an undertaking that he would consider the matter, and in that hope I withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. LYONS

I move:—

"In Sub-section (3), line 16, to insert after the word ‘persons' the words ‘but shall be composed of the elected representative of such districts the committees are appointed for, and all such committees shall be granted the travelling expenses, as mentioned in the Schedule of this Act.'"

I am afraid I will have to stand firmer on this amendment than on the other two, and I will have to force the hands of Deputies in order that they may show to their constituents whether they wish the administration of local affairs to be placed in the hands of people who are not elected. What I want is that where committees are appointed they will consist of elected representatives of the county councils for such districts as they are appointed for. My object in putting forward the amendment is to safeguard the moneys subscribed by the ratepayers, and to see that the proper people will have control over the administration of local affairs. For that purpose I want to place the full responsibility on the elected representatives of the county councils in whatever districts such committees are appointed by the county board of health.

It is not too much to ask that the members of such committees shall be paid such travelling expenses as are allowed in the Schedule of the Bill. If you want representatives to act in a proper manner, and to attend to the business they are appointed to look after, it is necessary that they should be paid travelling expenses, the same as members of the county council. I think the Minister should give this amendment a little better consideration than he has given to my other amendments. It is essential that the people should have a person whom they have elected to look after their interests. Only such elected representatives should be on those committees in order to safeguard the funds of the ratepayers, to look after the welfare of the poor, and, above all things, to look after the interests of the workers. A person who is simply nominated, and who, if he went forward for election, would not get twenty votes in that constituency, is not a suitable person to be appointed on such a committee. The proper people for such committees, as I have already explained, are the elected representatives who, in addition to looking after the interests of the poor, would see that the estimates are not increased unnecessarily, and generally would have a greater sense of responsibility. I am a member of several nominated committees, and we can seldom get a quorum to attend these meetings. In one particular division in the County of Westmeath there has not been a meeting for probably eight months. These are appointed on committees.

If those men were elected representatives they would certainly turn up. The four elected representatives on the committee are at every meeting, but they have to go away because there is no quorum. On account of that and for the purpose of safeguarding the ratepayers, I ask the committee to accept this amendment.

Mr. MORRISSEY

I ask the Minister not to accept this amendment. As far as I understand the amendment, what the Deputy aims at is that no person who is not a member of a county or of an urban council should be appointed on one of those committees. I think the Deputy should know, and the other Deputies do know, that some of the most useful people you can get on these committees—the people who will take a real interest in the work — will perhaps not be members of a county council or of an urban council. The class of people I would like to see on these committees would be those who take a genuine interest in the welfare of the poor — the people who work voluntarily in the Public Health services and in the relief of destitution. As the Deputy's amendment might prevent people of that class being appointed on those committees, I would ask the Minister not to accept it.

Mr. LYONS

This amendment does not prevent people being nominated on such committees, but it does specify that the persons elected as representatives of the district must be members of that committee. They may have a committee of eight and they could then appoint three or four outsiders, in addition to the members of the county council. I only ask that the elected representatives on the county council in districts where committees are appointed should be members of those committees. I am not going, as Deputy Morrissey has said, to exclude people who may have a knowledge of this work.

Mr. MORRISSEY

What the Deputy means to do is not exactly what the amendment will do if it is carried.

Mr. LYONS

It depends on the number of the committee. If the committee consists of only three members, you cannot have any outsiders on it. If the number of elected representatives in that district be six and the number of the committee appointed by the county board be twelve, then you will have six elected representatives on the committee. Surely that is sufficient scope to give people who will not stand for election or who might not be elected if they stood. I think Deputy Morrissey took a wrong view of the amendment. If the number of members of the committee is larger than the number of representatives there is nothing in the amendment to prevent the county board of health appointing outsiders on the committee.

Mr. CORISH

Like Deputy Morrissey, I ask the Minister not to accept this amendment. I do so especially in view of the fact that the Dáil has decided by vote to abolish the rural district councils. There may be a principle underlying the amendment, but the amendment in its present form does not carry it out. You are going to disfranchise the whole rural area by this amendment and for that reason I am opposing it.

Mr. BURKE

If Deputy Lyons' amendment bears the interpretation he put on it when introducing it, Deputy Morrissey answered him effectively. If it bears the interpretation he put on it on the last occasion, there is no necessity for it, because that is provided for in the Bill as it stands. In neither case could I accept it. Regarding the proviso as to travelling expenses, if the Deputy would take the trouble to read Section 65 of the Bill, I think he would find it covers the situation perfectly.

Mr. LYONS

I quite agree. I read that, but I thought it would be well to have provision here too so as to make sure. Deputy Corish asked the Minister to reject this amendment, as the district councils had already been abolished. But surely that is all the more reason why we should have some committee in these districts. I am trying to form little district councils in each district.

Mr. CORISH

I would like to ask Deputy Lyons where he is going to get elected representatives in the rural areas, since the district councils have been abolished.

Mr. LYONS

The elected representatives of the district on the county council should act. I am not at all convinced by the arguments of Deputy Morrissey or of the Minister. I think this amendment should stand. I want to see the people catered for in a proper manner, and in my opinion nobody can look after the people as well as their elected representatives. On those committees on which there are no elected representatives the work is not carried out to the satisfaction of the local people. The Minister replied and said that the section provided what I desired. I agree that it says that the committees may be composed wholly or partly of elected representatives, but I want that made mandatory. I want to have elected representatives of the districts, members of those committees. I want to place a certain responsibility on the county boards of health that when electing those committees they will put on them members of the county council, apart from those who may be members of the county board of health. The amendment does not prevent the nomination of outsiders. Any Deputy who opposes the amendment I certainly think is not acting honestly and according to his conscience, but purely owing to personal considerations.

Mr. JOHNSON

The section, if amended by the acceptance of Deputy Lyons' proposal, would read:—

Every committee appointed under this section shall consist of not less than three members and may be composed wholly of members of the board of health or partly of such members and partly of other persons, but shall be composed of the elected representatives of such districts as the committees are appointed for, and all such committees shall be granted the travelling expenses as mentioned in the Schedule to this Act.

I do not think anybody could vote for that amendment. I do not think five per cent. of the people would understand it if it were embodied in the Bill, and it would give plenty of work to lawyers. I imagine that at the back of Deputy Lyons' mind there is a purpose which is quite commendable. These committees which are to be appointed under this section may be local committees or they may be committees to do any special work, local or general, as decided by the board of health. According to the section, such a committee may be composed either wholly of members of the board of health or partly of such members. There may be one person appointed upon the committee who is a member of the board and two or more others who are not members of the board, and none of them, as a matter of fact, need be a member of the county council. I think there is some point in Deputy Lyons' attempted explanation of his proposal which is not met by the section.

I doubt the wisdom of having a committee of the board of health doing, perhaps, very important work, when not a single person on that committee need necessarily be a member of the county council. That is a defect. The board of health appointed by the county council will consist of a certain number of members of the county council and a certain number of other persons outside the county council. That board of health is to be empowered to appoint a committee for local or general purposes, and under the section such a committee may be composed of five, seven or ten persons, all of whom may be non-elected. The defect there should be remedied by the insertion of a proviso which would embody what is at the back of Deputy Lyons' mind but which is not embodied in his amendment. I would ask the Minister to consider that point between now and the Report Stage, because there is a certain importance attaching to it. It might even mean that very important work would be transferred by the board of health to a committee of that board, of which not a single person was elected by the people.

Mr. BURKE

There is possibly a point in Deputy Johnson's suggestion. The intention of the section is that there should be an elected member of the board of health on the committee, but it might possibly bear the interpretation put upon it, if regarded from a lawyer's point of view. I would be open to strengthening the section somewhat on the Report Stage. These local committees have no control over finance whatsoever, and, therefore, the matter is not so material as it might appear. However, I will consider the point on the Report Stage.

Mr. LYONS

I will be quite satisfied if the Minister will insert a proviso in sub-section (3) to meet my point. I want some elected representatives to be members of these committees. There is nothing in the section directing the county board of health to appoint such members on the committees, and they might solely appoint outside persons who have not been elected. I would urge the Minister to provide that a certain percentage of the representation should be reserved for elected persons.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Mr. COLE

I move Amendment 10:—

To insert after sub-section (3) a new sub-section as follows:

"Existing officers of district councils shall where eligible and able to perform the duties get first preferences of appointments as officials of such committees."

The obvious effect of this amendment would be to reduce the number of those likely to receive pensions. I do not think it is necessary to dwell upon that point. We all think that there are too many of these pensionable officers and we would like to keep the number as small as possible.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I support the amendment. I think it is very important that appointments to be made by the board of health should be made wherever possible from eligible officers of the late district councils. We have cases of new appointments by the boards of health, while at the same time we have suitable men who acted as clerks of district councils and boards of guardians going out on pension. These men are young enough and capable of performing the duties of the offices, but new men are coming in and getting these positions under the boards of health. It is only right that these ex-officials should get the preference when they are eligible and suitable for these positions. It should be mandatory on these boards to appoint these pensionable officers.

Mr. BURKE

I am sure that this amendment is unnecessary. If Deputies considered carefully Section 65 they would see that all the officers of the present rural district councils will automatically become officers of the county council and they can be transferred to the county board of health. So far as I am concerned, all along I have insisted — and under this Act I will have much more authority for insisting than formerly — that existing officers should get the preference in all these appointments. I am certainly not going to be placed in the position of pensioning officers who are better qualified to do the work than new officers. I think the Deputies who followed the course of events, so far as my Department is concerned, will say that I have given good earnest of my intention in that matter. Only a very short time ago, I was forced to the very serious step of having to close down West Cork County Board of Health because they refused to appoint one of the many officers who formerly belonged to the abolished unions and insisted on appointing a person who was not at all well qualified for the position. That has been my attitude all along. It will be my attitude under this Bill also, but my hands will be strengthened under this Bill owing to the fact that Section 65 has been inserted, whereby all these existing officers automatically become officers of the county council.

Mr. COLE

We have no doubt about the Minister's intentions, but it might happen that for some reason the Minister would send in his resignation hereafter and his successor might not have the same good intentions. Consequently I would like a provision inserted in the Bill.

Mr. BURKE

The Deputy's views are completely met by Section 65.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I am not quite satisfied with the Minister's explanation. I think his intention is perfectly clear, but I am not quite satisfied that Section 65 covers this matter. I do not want to press the matter too far, because I know the Minister has good intentions in regard to it. It says that any existing officer may be transferred by the county council to the board of health. I think that might be made stronger, to state that he shall be transferred if a suitable position arises in connection with the board of health, and if there is no work in the county council. I only make that suggestion, that it might be made stronger.

Sir J. CRAIG

I think the Minister might accept something of this nature, because when we come to look at Section 65, we see that although there is a provision by which the officer may be transferred to the county council, still when we come to sub-clause (3) we read: "That if any existing officer of a rural district council is removed from office in consequence of change affected by or under this Act the cost of any compensation granted to such officer for such loss of office shall be charged on the area of the county"— shall fall on the local rates. I think the Minister might insert something by which it would be made obligatory upon the county council to try to get work at all events for these existing officers and not to superannuate them.

Mr. BURKE

I think that what the Deputies are looking for is completely covered by Section 65. It says:—

Where the business of any council or committee is transferred by this Act to any county council the existing officers of that council or committee employed in that business shall...

It does not say "may."

...from and after the appointed day become the officers of such county council in like manner, subject to the provisions of this section as if they had been appointed by such county council, and any such officer may be transferred by such county council to the board of health of any county health district in such county."

It says it shall be the business of the county council, but if a county council cannot utilise him they may transfer him to the board of health, and it means that he shall be retained in the service. However, I think the most suitable place to discuss this matter would be under Section 65. If Deputies are not satisfied, then I would be willing to put in any other safeguards they would like.

Mr. WOLFE

Might I ask the Minister if in a case of that kind the officer would be secured from loss of income. If he has served a long time, and if he is transferred from the county council to the board of health, will his emoluments remain as they were?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The better way would be to postpone discussion on this matter until we reach Section 65. Will Deputy Cole take this amendment now or postpone it to Section 65?

Mr. COLE

I will postpone it to Section 65 if the Minister will accept the amendment then.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I will accept an amendment to Section 65 on this matter.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed—"That Section 12 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. BURKE

We had a great deal of discussion on the principle of this section. We discussed it on the Second Reading and on the section dealing with the abolition of the rural district councils. We have had it running all through the course of the debate. Therefore, I would just like to say a few words on the matter. Briefly the section enables two kinds of committees to be set up. First of all, you have local committees, and, secondly, you have got committees for special purposes set up for the whole county health area. I have thought that members elected for each electoral area — there are so many members of a county council returned for each electoral area, I think the average is about 7 —would form a suitable nucleus for a general purposes committee in each electoral area, and I think that is the most likely shape these committees will take. There is nothing in the Bill to compel these committees to take that shape. We are allowing the utmost elasticity in that matter, because it is quite possible there may be several districts in an area that may have very conflicting interests. One may be a watering place that would require particular attention from the point of view of developing it as a resort and another might be an agricultural area and so on.

In practice, committees appointed on the basis of the electoral area might not be in every case a success. I think in the beginning it will probably be wise to have these members who are elected for each electoral area come together as a committee, and afterwards committees will naturally spring up in the various districts where a want for them makes itself felt. The committee for the county health area will be a much larger and more important affair. Say that a lighting scheme was decided on for the whole county health area. Then a committee would be appointed by the board of health to inquire into the best methods for providing a lighting supply for that area, and it would be a much more important committee. It might require the services of a paid secretary, and it might require an office, and the officers of the board of health would be able to deal with the work of such committee. Local committees, on the other hand, would require practically no staff. It would be a case of formal meetings in each other's houses, and it would entail no expense at all. I am very anxious that these committees should spring up through the country. It is the custom on the Continent for committees of this kind to spring up in every hamlet and parish, and I think that the line which will be probably followed will be something on the principle of the French communal system. I think it would be a great improvement on the old district council system, which did not provide at all adequately for the wants of the district that it was intended to serve.

Mr. CORISH

Would the Minister say whether a lighting scheme would be under the jurisdiction of the county council or the board of health?

Mr. BURKE

The board of health.

Mr. JOHNSON

Would the Minister say what would be under the jurisdiction of the county council, apart from the board of health?

Mr. BURKE

Practically nothing only roads.

Mr. CORISH

Political resolutions.

Mr. JOHNSON

So that the point is apparently that the roads which were intended to be administered by a central authority will be the only work of the county council, which is the elected body, and I take it, in a general way, that this work would be finished at the first annual meeting when it has passed the estimates. It may appoint a road sub-committee, I have no doubt. The board of health will be then practically as independent an institution in relation to the county council as the old board of guardians was to the county council, having almost complete freedom from supervision, except, once a year, financial control. I confess that the scheme does not seem to me to be satisfactory from the point of view of the electorate. It is practically relegating to the county council the functions of an appointing body on the one hand, and on the other hand a registering body with respect to finances, the budget presented by the board of health, and the collection of rates. I hope it will be more satisfactory than it promises, to my mind.

Mr. LYONS

I am surprised that the Minister did not insert in the Bill a provision making the county board of health an elected body and the county council a body nominated by the county board of health. It would have been much better to do that than to have it as it is at present. I was rather surprised to hear the Minister's reply to Deputy Corish, that the county board of health was the proper authority. If a lighting scheme was started in the district, the county board of health cannot find the money; they have no authority to strike a rate; they have no authority to collect money. The money is supplied by the county council, but it appears to me that it does not matter who works the county board of health, the county council has to pay the piper. I think it would be much better if the Minister, when abolishing district councils, also abolished county councils, had no elected representatives for any part of Ireland, but sent down commissioners. That would probably suit him much better than allowing anyone to have decent representation. I am against this section.

The Minister has not accepted any amendments to improve it as required by Deputies. It gives too much control to a nominated body. It is making them the supreme body over the county council. The only authority the county council will have is that when the county board of health demands a certain sum, say £34,000, the county council will have to find that money. That is what they are there for, to find money, hand it over to the county board of health and let them spend it; hand it over to a body which is only a nominated body. I think that is not a section that will meet with any satisfaction. It may satisfy a few people who wish to become members of a county board of health for the simple purpose of getting their sons or daughters into positions, but will not meet with the approval of any honest representatives who are really out for the good of the people. The county council will have no control over anything, doctors, midwives, infirmaries, waterworks or lighting schemes; all they will have control over will be the throwing of a few shovels of sand on the roads. I think the Minister, on the Report Stage, ought to delete the county council as an elected body, substitute the county board of health, and have them that they shall appoint the county councils. I think it would be more honest if they did. I will call for a division on this section.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Does the question of the county councils arise under this section?

Mr. BURKE

Not directly.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

How does it rise indirectly?

Mr. CORISH

The Minister raised it.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Is this not a question of the county board of health appointing committees?

Mr. LYONS

Yes, but there is the further question that if the county boards are appointed by the county councils the county boards will have more authority in the counties than those who appointed them.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Does the county board get this authority under the section?

Mr. LYONS

It gets authority to appoint committees.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Oh, yes, that is a different matter altogether.

Mr. BURKE

I wish to say a few words——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

You will have to keep to the question of county councils and county boards of health.

Mr. BURKE

A good deal has been said about the board of health being only a nominated body. Deputies might just as well say that we are only a nominated body. We are only a Committee of the Dáil, just as these will be committees.

Mr. LYONS

We are elected.

Mr. BURKE

If Deputies will read Section 13 they will see that the county council has complete financial control over the board of health. It is not merely a case of passing its estimates; they have control over actions that the board of health takes in connection with finance. After all, that is the main item to be considered.

Mr. JOHNSON

I made a statement a little while ago which I find was not wholly correct, and I want to amend it. I said that any of the committees appointed under this section might consist wholly of persons who were not elected. That is wrong. There must be at least one person on a sub-committee who has been elected to a county council, inasmuch as the board of health will consist, in the first place, of persons who are members of the county councils and therefore are elected. But quite easily any such committee might consist of only one person who has been elected by the ratepayers to the county council, and might consist, in addition to that one, of any number who are not elected. Any such committee may have granted to it any powers as the board of health as a whole has been given, and in that way you may have a committee consisting of ten persons having the supervision — shall I say? — of the lighting of all the areas in the district. One person on that committee will be a member of the county council, but the rest will be, or may be, non-members of the county council. It will be that committee which will have a detailed knowledge of the requirements of the district, or will be supposed to have it. That committee would prepare the estimate which will be presented to the county council from the board of health. The county council will have the power, as the Minister points out, to refuse to accept that estimate, refuse to strike a rate to cover it, and of course it will have the same sort of ultimate authority as the county councils had in the past over the boards of guardians. But in practical working what was the effectiveness of that authority? Very little, after the vote had been given.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

took the Chair.

Mr. JOHNSON

Once a rate had been struck in the old days it was the board of guardians, and in the new days it will be the committee which will have the administration of those moneys, so that we are likely to have the experience that the practical working of the administration will be in the hands of the board of health and its sub-committees, mainly its sub-committees. The board of health will consist of nine persons, and it will appoint, perhaps, nine sub-committees, one member of the board of health on each sub-committee.

Mr. WILSON

"And may appoint."

Mr. JOHNSON

"May appoint." The argument that succeeded against our amendment with respect to one particular function was that the boards of health appoint themselves. But let us assume that they do not appoint themselves, in deference to the wishes of Deputy Wilson. The board of health of nine persons is to do the whole of the administration of all the services of the county council except the management of the roads. Then the prophecy that the board of health will meet three days a week for every week in the quarter will likely be realised. But, on the other hand, let us take the other view, that the board of health, having the power to appoint committees, will exercise that power. It is the board of health, consisting of nine members, and it appoints nine sub-committees. One member of the board of health who has been elected to the county council will act upon the committee, and he will have five, six, or seven other persons, none of whom will be elected. So that we are to have the whole administration of the county council carried out by persons who have not been elected to the county councils, who have not been elected to any other body, in fact.

That may satisfy what the Minister for Justice spoke of two or three weeks ago as being essentially democratic, and the equivalent of representation in the Dáil — that a body concerned would be answerable directly to the people through its representatives. I suggest that under this scheme it is going to be very far from being directly responsible; it is going to be very indirectly responsible and at a very great distance from the ordinary processes of election and responsibility to the ratepayers; there will be final responsibility, no doubt, as the financial control will be in the county council. Unless that county council is likely to be in constant touch with the administration—and it will not be under this scheme — the financial control is only a pretence. The people that will be in actual control will be the sub-committees, who will present estimates to the county council from the board of health. The sub-committees are to consist of persons, some members of the board of health, and some non-members of the board of health.

Possibly — and I am putting this as a possibility, not as an inevitable consequence of the Bill, and I think we have got to guard against possibilities in a measure of this kind — the sub-committees, whether local or general, whether administering the functions in an area or the general functions of the whole district, may consist of one person who has been elected by the ratepayers, and five, six or ten other persons who are only answerable to the board of health, having been nominated by the board of health. If that can be defended, anything can be defended. It is a complete negation of the system either of the Parliamentary representation or the Local Government which we have taken over. If we would say frankly that we intend to abolish the system of representation through election, and responsibility to the ratepayers by means of an electoral system, let us say so at once; but do not let us pretend to retain that system, and then embody in an enactment proposals that are a negation of that system. That is what Section 12 proposes to do.

Mr. BURKE

I cannot see the drift of Deputy Johnson's remarks. If he read sub-section (4) of this section he would see that those sub-committees have only advisory powers, subject to confirmation by the board of health, unless the board of health confers additional powers on them with the consent of the Minister. All the time you have the elected representatives of the people in absolute control. If they wish to give away that control in any set of circumstances, that is their own business. There is no obligation on them to do it. They can have these committees appointed and leave them purely advisory committees. There is no necessity to give them any more powers.

Mr. JOHNSON

You give them a lead to do that — throw over their authority and responsibility.

Question: "That Section 12 stand part of the Bill"— put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 33; Níl, 16.

Tá

• Pádraig F. Baxter.
• Earnán de Blaghd.
• Seoirse de Bhulbh.
• Séamus de Búrca.
• John Conlan.
• Sir James Craig.
• Louis J. D'Alton.
• Máighréad Ní Choileáin Bean Uí Dhrisceóil.
• Patrick J. Egan.
• Seosamh Mac 'a Bhrighde.
• Risteárd Mac Liam.
• Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
• Liam Mac Sioghaird.
• Peadar O hAodha.
• Criostóir O Broin.
• Seán O Bruadair.
• Risteárd O Conaill.
• Conchubhair O Conghaile.
• Séamus O Cruadhlaoich.
• Séamus O Dóláin.
• Tadhg O Donnabháin.
• Mícheál O Dubhghaill.
• Peadar S. O Dubhghaill.
• Eamon O Dúgáin. Seán O Duinnín.
• Donchadh O Guaire.
• Mícheál O hIfearnáin.
• Séamus O Leadáin.
• Fionán O Loingsigh.
• Séamus O Murchadha.
• Patrick K. Hogan (Luimneach).
• Caoimhghín O hUigín.
• Nicholas Wall.

Níl

• Séamus Eabhróid.
• David Hall.
• Séamus Mac Cosgair.
• Maolmhuire Mac Eochadha.
• Tomás Mac Eoin.
• Risteárd Mac Fheorais.
• Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha.
• Tomás de Nógla.
• Ailfrid O Broin.
• Tomás O Conaill.
• Liam O Daimhín.
• Eamon O Dubhghaill.
• Seán O Laidhin.
• Domhnall O Muirgheasa.
• Tadhg O Murchadha.
• Pádraig O hOgáin (An Clár).

Motion declared carried.

SECTION 13.

(1) A board of health shall be subject to such conditions or restrictions in relation to expenditure as the county council may impose with the consent of the Minister.

(2) The money required to meet the expenses of a board of health in the exercise and performance of their powers and duties under this Act shall be supplied by the county council to the board of health on an annual estimate and demand by the board of health, and shall be estimated, demanded, and paid in the same manner as the expenses of a rural district council have been heretofore estimated, demanded, and paid, or in such other manner as may be prescribed.

(3) The expenses of a board of health incurred in the performance of the duties of the county council as sanitary authority for a county health district shall be raised by the county council in such county health district by means of the poor rate.

(4) Section 232 of the Public Health (Ireland) Act, 1878, shall be amended by the substitution for the areas situated in a rural sanitary district therein defined as contributory places for the purposes of the said Act, of the following areas:—

(a) the townland,

(b) the dispensary district,

(c) the area of any rural district as constituted immediately before the appointed day,

(d) such portions of any of the above-mentioned areas as may be determined by the Minister.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I beg to move the following amendment:—

At the end of sub-section (1) to add the following words: "The county council may with the consent of the Minister define the limits of expenditure by the board of health, and such limits shall not be exceeded except with the consent of the Minister."

I am not quite clear that the Minister in this section has definitely laid down that a county council may place a definite limit on the amount of money to be spent by the board of health. Some of us who are not very closely acquainted with the working of Local Government are only gradually beginning to visualise what is going to happen when this Bill comes into force. We had it explained by Deputy Johnson that the county council is simply going to be a nominating body, performing, as its first duty, the nomination of the board of health. Another duty it will have is that of looking after the rates in the country, and the control of the budget supplied by the board of health. The question is whether the budget will not be supplied in the same manner as that in which the budgets of the old boards of guardians were supplied to the county council. They put in an estimate at the beginning of the financial year, and to all intents and purposes the county council had no real control over the amount of that estimate; they simply were a sanctioning body.

I am not quite clear whether the Minister intends this section to mean that the county council will have the power to restrict the expenditure of the board of health. Does it mean that the county council can say: "You will only be allowed to spend £5,000 on such and such a service," referring, say, to the home help service or some other service over which they may have control, such as the hospital service? Further, does it mean that the board of health may not have power to exceed that amount without the sanction of the Minister for Local Government? The intention, we are told, is to keep a strict control over the purse and to see that the money of the ratepayers will not be wasted. It is well known the expenditure on local government has gone up by leaps and bounds, and that the rates now paid are something like three or four or five hundred per cent. higher than in 1914. Such a rate cannot be borne by the people, and there should be some stringent control exercised.

Mr. BURKE

On a point of order, I would like the Deputy to mention in what county the rates are three or four hundred per cent. higher than in 1914.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

That statement, I think, can be proved. I know a case where the rates this year are 6/6 in the £ as compared with 1/8 somewhere about 1914. Those rates are four times greater than they were in that period. That is in the district where I am living. I am not perfectly certain about the former year, but probably it was 1913 or 1914. That being the case, I believe that a strong hand must be kept over the finances of the country. You have this nominated board of health with its nominated committees and sub-committees, and these committees may have power to expend money. You have this expenditure by the board of health and its committees handed over as a demand on the county council. The county council may have no option but to say, "We have to pay." When the ratepayers kick up a row, the county council simply say, "We cannot help it; we got this demand from the board of health and had no option but to meet it." I want to know if the intention of the section is to give power to the county council to ration the board of health. If it does not, my amendment aims at giving that power.

Mr. MORRISSEY

This amendment, I think, is not necessary. Even if accepted, it would not achieve anything like what will be achieved by the section as it stands. If the amendment were accepted in its present form I do not know how it will read into the section.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

At the end.

Mr. MORRISSEY

Even at the end it will not read very well. To my mind it does not give the county council any greater control over the board of health than is provided for in the section. I do not think it will ensure what the Deputy has in his mind. As to Deputy Heffernan's statement, that in some counties the rates have gone up 300 or 400 per cent. over what they were ten or twelve years ago, I would like to know the district where that happened. If the Deputy said 30 or 40 per cent. it might be nearer to the facts.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I have given a definite statement. It is a district council. I will supply the Deputy with the exact figures if he wishes.

Mr. HUGHES

Deputy Heffernan is probably labouring under a misapprehension. Probably what he has in mind is the time when we had electoral division rating for poor law purposes. These rates varied considerably. From my experience, I do not believe there was a rural district in Ireland in 1914 with a 1/6 rate. I know there were rates of from 10d. to 2/- for poor law purposes. I cannot find anything in the amendment very much different from what is contained in Sub-section (1). The amendment aims practically at the same thing and would only make the Section unwieldy. The Deputy should remember what the value of money was in 1914 as compared with now. He should take into account what has to be paid now in wages and salaries, and should know that it is not possible to carry on now at the same rate as in 1914.

Mr. D'ALTON

I do not see any necessity for the amendment. The Deputy does not seem to be fully aware of the position of the board of health. I am afraid he has no knowledge of the work or of the jurisdiction of the board of health. He evidently thinks that the members of the county council are not elected by the people and that they put on the board of health men who are not elected representatives. The board of health consists of members of the county council elected by the people. They are responsible to the county council in the first instance, and the Local Government Department checks everything that is done by the board of health. The amount of money expended under the poor law system has been very considerably decreased in the Riding from which Deputy Heffernan comes. At the same time, I might remind Deputy Johnson of the fact that there has been practically no complaint from those out of work and who are entitled to home help.

The board of health is a body that is absolutely bound down. If it is not bound down in any county then there is something wrong. Let us hope that other boards of health are managed as well as the board of which I happen to be chairman. There is absolutely nothing done in our county that is not under the control of the Ministry. Practically all of the members are farmers and there is very rarely a complaint. If anything is wrong the Ministry will not approve of it. Any expenditure incurred has got to go before the county council. Up to the present it was not possible to send in an estimate of the probable expenditure for the 12 months, which Deputy Johnson refers to. That would be absolutely impossible, as these boards are only a very short time in existence and the work was new to some of the members. The amalgamation schemes made a very great change. From what I have seen these boards have done their work well. I know that the members of these boards recognise that they are responsible to the county council, and both the board of health and the county council are under the control of the Local Government Department as regards every item of expenditure. I see no reason for the amendment, because any expenditure incurred by the board of health will have to go, not alone before the Local Government Department, but before the county council, where every item will be criticised and no undue expenditure will be allowed.

Mr. BAXTER

I want to support Deputy Heffernan's amendment. An ideal state of things appears to exist in Tipperary and perhaps there is reason for it. Deputy D'Alton has given a reason why conditions are ideal there; still I think there is something in Deputy Heffernan's argument, and that things may not always be so well, even in Tipperary, as they are at present. There is every reason to think that a future board of health in Tipperary may be composed not of farmers but of people who may be less careful about spending public money. I think there ought to be one authority in every county really responsible for finding the money that has to be spent, and that the county council should be that authority. If they have to find the money they ought also be in the position of allocating how the money should be spent.

It is all right to say that boards of health are under the authority of the county councils. I do not know what the conditions are in Tipperary, but they do not generally obtain. As far as I know, in other counties these boards are entirely independent of the county council. The county council does not interfere, nor has it any right to interfere, as to the amount of money boards of health should spend. It seems to me that it should be within the jurisdiction of the county council when estimates are being considered to say how much is to go to the board of health. That power should be in the hands of the county council, as they are the real responsible body for raising and spending money.

Mr. MORRISSEY

You will find it in the Bill.

Mr. BAXTER

Deputy Morrissey says that is provided for in the Bill, but I do not think it is provided for in the shape Deputy Heffernan intends. If Deputy Morrissey, Deputy D'Alton or the Minister can show us that the county council would have jurisdiction to the extent of saying to the county board of health how much they can spend, we will be satisfied that it meets Deputy Heffernan's point. Otherwise we will not.

Mr. D'ALTON

I say that is contained in a sub-section.

Mr. LYONS

I am in favour of the amendment. I think this amendment would at least give some control to the county council which raises the money. Sub-section 2 of Section 13 says:—

The money required to meet the expenses of a board of health in the exercise and performance of their powers and duties under this Act shall be supplied by the county council to the board of health on an annual estimate and demand by the board of health, and shall be estimated, demanded, and paid in the same manner as the expenses of a rural district council have been heretofore estimated, demanded, and paid, or in such other manner as may be prescribed.

That is, if the county board of health demands £60,000 the county council has no alternative but to grant it.

Mr. D'ALTON

Estimate and demand.

Mr. LYONS

If the estimate is £60,000 the county council have no power to reduce it. Deputy D'Alton has told us about how well the workers of Tipperary are treated by the county board of health. I am very pleased to know that the people are so well looked after by the board of health there. It is not so in every other county. Section 13 of this Bill compels the county council to raise money and to hand it over to the county board of health. The least we can expect is that the county council should have some control over that money. As Deputy D'Alton stated, it is all under the control of the Minister for Local Government. The general complaint with all public bodies under the old regime was that there was too much red-tapeism, and that there was too much of the iron hand kept on local authorities by the then Local Government Board. The same thing applies now. If a man is employed by the county council the sanction of the Minister for Local Government has to be obtained. There is too much control — I do not say on the part of the Minister himself, but by the officials of his Department. Of course, the county council have not so far been asked to submit to the Department the names of the road workers for sanction.

Deputy D'Alton is quite correct in saying that the expenditure of the money is under the supervision of the Local Government Department, so that if the county board of health do anything wrong the Department, as the Bill provides, can cause such an inquiry as they may think fit to be held. That is not sufficient to safeguard the county council. The people who are elected to the position of county councillors should, in my opinion, have some control over the money expended by the county board of health. When the latter body sends in an estimate the county council should be in a position to say whether they would sanction the full amount asked for, or reduce it, if they thought well. In my opinion, the county council should be given that authority, so that they might be enabled to save the money of the ratepayers. A lot has been said about increases in the estimates of public bodies. Some Deputies have put down the increase at from 200 to 300 per cent. I can speak with authority of two counties in the Twenty-Six that comprise the Free State. In these counties the rates have been reduced by 1/8 and 1/10 in the pound, while, at any time, the rate was never more than 7/10 in the pound. The cost of home help has increased, no doubt, but that is not the fault of the unfortunate people who have to make application for assistance.

I suggest the fault is due to the employers in this country who will not invest their money in industries and thus provide employment for the people. In my opinion, members of the board of health, even though they be not members of the county council, should be given power, in cases of distress or hardship which come to their notice in their own districts, to afford relief to the sufferers. I agree with the amendment of Deputy Heffernan, because I see that it proposes to give the county council some authority. It was stated that the county council were the masters as far as the estimates are concerned, but in my opinion, they have not the control in that respect that they should have. It is true, of course, that the county council has control over a load of sand that may be spread on the roads, or over the man engaged rolling a wheel-barrow on the roads,: but I think that is all the control they have. The Minister, in his reply, stated that the county council has full control over the finances of the county. I can say that they have no control over the county board of health, and that they do not know in what manner the money they raise is expended by that board. I think the Minister should accept this amendment for the reason that it proposes to give the county council some little control.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I desire to assure my fellow-Deputy from the County Tipperary that when I was speaking on this matter I had not the Tipperary county board of health in view at all. I was speaking on the matter from the general point of view of the whole country. Statements have been made to the effect that the rates have not been increased by amounts like two, three or four hundred per cent. There are, however, definite cases in which the rates have been increased, and I can produce facts to show that they have been increased by the amounts stated. Deputy Hughes, while acknowledging that the rates have increased to a large extent, states that the value of money has decreased. I would like to remind him that while the rates have increased the value of money to the ratepayers has decreased. The amount of money which the ratepayers get for their produce has not increased by even fifty per cent. I would be perfectly satisfied if the increase in the rates bore some relation to the increase in the value of the produce which we sell. But it does not. It was stated that sub-section (1) of this section covers the matter that I am endeavouring to cover by my amendment. I do not agree. Sub-section (1) of the section states that "The board of health shall be subject to such conditions and restrictions in respect to expenditure as the county council may impose with the consent of the Minister." That does not say that the county council shall be definitely limited or rationed as to the amount which they may expend.

Mr. MORRISSEY

The amendment does not say so either.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

The amendment says they "may." I put in the word "may," as Deputy D'Alton pointed out that the Board of Health is only in existence for a very short time. Therefore, the amount of money which the county board of health will require to expend will be very problematical for some time, and it would not be right or fair to ask the county council to place a limit on the amount at the present time. To limit the amount would be a very arbitrary procedure to adopt at present. In my opinion, when the county boards of health have been in vogue for four or five years, the county council should then place a limit on their expenditure, and tell the Boards: "This is your limit, and beyond that you cannot go. If you do, you will be surcharged."

Mr. BURKE

I was glad to hear from Deputy Heffernan that his remarks about the increase in rates by three or four hundred per cent. did not apply to counties, but to rural districts. I am not going to accept any responsibility for the expenditure of rural district councils. I have taken a very effective way of getting rid of that, and I am surprised that when Deputy Heffernan put forward such a good argument in favour of their abolition, that he did not vote for their abolition, but voted the other way. With regard to Deputy D'Alton and Deputy Baxter, they seem to be at cross purposes as regards the relation of the board of health to the county council. As a matter of fact, there is a difference in the constitution of Deputy Baxter's board of health to the one in operation in Deputy D'Alton's constituency. Deputy Baxter's board of health was elected by the rural district council and the urban council. That system was changed subsequently, and the board of health was elected by the county council. Deputy D'Alton's board of health happens to be one of those that was last set up, and it is responsible to the county council. At the present time there is no very effective control over the boards of health by the county councils, but sub-section (1) of this section gives complete control. That sub-section embodies everything that is in Deputy Heffernan's amendment. Indeed, it includes a great deal more. Deputy Heffernan's amendment would add nothing to the sub-section. The only possible effect it might have is that a judge, in construing the section along with the amendment, might possibly look upon the amendment as a limitation of the section, and some of the powers that the county council have under the section as it stands might be taken from it if this amendment were inserted, and for that reason I am opposed to it. If I thought that the amendment would increase the authority of the county council over the board of health, I would accept it, but if it were to do anything at all it would, I think, be the other way about.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

If the Minister would give me a clear understanding that there is power under the Bill as it stands for a county council to limit the expenditure of a board of health, I am willing to withdraw the amendment.

Mr. BURKE

You have that power.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

Then I ask the leave of the Committee to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment No. 11, by leave, withdrawn.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

The question now before the Dáil is: "That Section 13 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. BURKE

Deputy Heffernan's amendment enabled us to discuss the principle of this section fairly elaborately, but there is just one point in it that I desire to call attention to. The Bill provides for the usual contributory places for special expenses provided for under the Public Health (Ireland) Act of 1878, with this addition, that the area of rural district councils is added. That is necessary because, on the appointed day, the expenses of the rural district council will be charged on the area of the rural district, and for that reason the area of the rural district will have to continue to be the area on which special rates are charged for some time to come. It is advisable to retain this as a special area of charge for the future. For example, supposing at the present time, or on the appointed day, a rural district council has erected a waterworks in respect of which there is a loan outstanding, that loan would be charged on the area of the rural district, and if, on a subsequent appointed day, or at any future date, an improvement were made in the waterworks, obviously the area on which to charge the expenses incurred in respect of that addition or improvement would be the area of the rural district. For that reason, it is necessary to add it to the other areas on which special expenses are charged.

Question —"That Section 13 stand part of the Bill"— put and agreed to.

SECTION 14.

From and after the appointed day, the committees appointed by county councils and mentioned in the Third Schedule to this Act shall cease to exist, and the powers, duties, property, and liabilities of every such committee shall be transferred to the council of the county by which such committee was appointed, and such powers and duties in so far as they relate to any county health district shall be exercised and performed by and through the board of health for such county health district, and in so far as they relate to any urban district shall be exercised and performed by and through the board of health for the county health district adjoining such urban district, or where there are more than one such county health districts, by the board of health of such of those county health districts as the Minister shall direct.

Mr. BURKE

This section deals with the abolition of special committees, that is, committees dealing with quasisanitary functions and that were committees of the county council. As long as the county council was in control of functions that were partly sanitary it was necessary that they should have the power to appoint these committees, but now that all the public health functions of the county are centred in the Board of Public Health it is only right that these functions should be taken under control by the board of health. In the case of the Tuberculosis Committee under this Bill, if that Committee were not abolished you would have some functions dealing with tuberculosis performed by the county board of health, and other functions dealing with the curative side of the disease performed by the Tuberculosis Committee, and it is better that all these functions should be performed by one body — the county board of health. If it is necessary to appoint a sub-committee to deal with these matters that committee should be appointed by the board of health and not by the county council, as it is the board of health that will have to deal with all matters in connection with health.

Mr. LYONS

Will the appointment of the Agricultural and Technical Instruction Committee be made by the board of health, or will they be appointed by the county council and remain under the supervision of the county council?

Mr. BURKE

Under the county councils.

Mr. LYONS

Will the county councils appoint the management of the district hospitals and the county infirmaries or will the committees of the county infirmaries be transferred?

Mr. BURKE

The county councils do not appoint committees of infirmaries.

Mr. MORRISSEY

What have county committees of agriculture or mental hospitals to do with this section?

Mr. LYONS

I am looking for information. The section shows the different committees that were appointed.

Mr. BURKE

The committees mentioned in the Schedule.

Question —"That Section 14 stand part of the Bill"— put and agreed to.

SECTION 15.

Notwithstanding any provision in any of the enactments mentioned in the Fourth Schedule to this Act whereby such enactment or any portion thereof only extends to the districts or places to or in which such enactment or portion thereof has been applied or adopted by order or resolution of any authority, the provisions of each of the said enactments shall, from and after the passing of this Act, extend to and be in full force and effect in every part of Saorstát Eireann.

Mr. BURKE

This section deals with making compulsory notification of certain diseases in the country that are at the present time only adopted. Some counties make notification compulsorily, and others need not, and it is obvious that if this section is to be effective at all it should be in force all over the country. The Acts, that the section is intended to enforce, deal with the notification of the spread of disease, the inspection of dairies and cowsheds, and with various other sanitary matters. It might be well to give a short summary of the effect of the Acts that this Bill proposes to put into force.

The following Acts are made compulsory by this section:—

(1) The Infectious Diseases (Notification) Act, 1889. This required heads of families and medical practitioners to notify cases of infectious diseases to the medical officer of health. At present it only applies in urban, rural or port sanitary districts where it has been adopted by the local authority of such district by resolution after advertisement, notice to the Minister, and fourteen days' notice to each member.

(2) The Infectious Diseases (Prevention) Act, 1890, provides for inspection of dairies, cleansing and disinfection of premises, detention in hospitals of infected persons without proper lodging, burial, etc. It only applies to sanitary districts after a resolution as in (1).

(3) Public Health Acts Amendment Act, 1890 (Part III.). This contains sanitary and other provisions dealing with sewers and drains, public sanitary conveniences, building on unclean ground, sanitary bye-laws, foodstuffs sold, slaughter houses, dwelling houses, streets, etc. It applies at present in urban and rural districts after adoption by the sanitary authority by resolution after one month's notice.

(4) Public Health Acts Amendment Act, 1907, Part IV. This contains provisions for preventing the spread of infectious diseases, and prevents persons suffering therefrom from carrying on occupations except such as do not involve risk of spreading the disease. It also deals with the supply of milk, infected clothes, infected children, library books, hospital expenses, nursing, cleansing and disinfecting, and may be applied at present to any district by order of the Minister made on the application of the local authority, who must advertise their intention to make such application for at least a fortnight.

(5) The Tuberculosis Prevention (Ireland) Act, 1908, Part I., provides for the notification of prescribed forms of tuberculosis which, by reason of infective discharges, are liable to communicate the disease. The notification is to be by medical practitioners. It applies at present in sanitary districts after a resolution of the sanitary authority made after fourteen days' notice and approved by the county council. These sections make the Minister's duties in relation to general health clear. They empower him to set up bodies of experts whose advice he can obtain when necessary.

The diseases that are compulsorily notifiable under the First Act, the Prevention of Diseases (Notification) Act, 1889, are the following:—Smallpox, cholera, diphtheria, membranous croup, erysipelas, scarlet fever, typhus fever, enteric fever, relapsing fever, and puerperal fever. It will be noticed that there was a special Act for the compulsory notification of tuberculosis. Tuberculosis is in some respects a disease per se. There is considerable conflict of professional opinion as to how infectious tuberculosis is, but the general idea is that it is not a highly infectious disease, and that people are only liable to infection after being exposed to it for a long period and under conditions of malnutrition, overcrowding, etc. For that reason it has been considered desirable to draft a special Bill to apply to tuberculosis and not to make regulations with respect to this disease as stringent as in respect to highly infectious diseases like smallpox. Accordingly the Act making tuberculosis compulsorily notifiable is a very mild Act. It only applies in cases where the disease is specially contagious or infectious notified as being dangerous by the medical practitioner. The disease is notified by the patient's medical practitioner, and the local authority does not intervene unless at the patient's special request. The medical practitioner who hands in the certificate has to state on the certificate whether the patient desires such attention from the local authority or not, and if not, the local authority does not intervene. The greatest care is taken that no publicity will be given to the diseases and there is no power under the Act for the removal of a patient compulsorily.

I make this statement with regard to tuberculosis, because some people are afraid that by applying this Act compulsorily, tuberculous patients may be subject to hard treatment because people suffering from this disease, and their relations, are naturally sensitive about it. I desire to make it perfectly clear that the application of this Act will not submit them to any humiliating investigation or anything of that kind. It is clearly desirable that the Act should be put into force, because without notification it is impossible to give patients the facilities for curing and treating the disease properly. It is impossible to compile suitable statistics and to provide proper methods for stamping out this disease otherwise. As a matter of fact, since notification was adopted in 1910 there has been a very considerable decline in the number of deaths from tuberculosis. In 1910 the deaths were 1.57 in the thousand, and in 1921, when the last statistics were available, the proportion was 2.3, so that notification on the whole has proved very beneficial in this respect, and it would be a great pity not to enforce this regulation throughout the country.

Mr. T. O'CONNELL

There is one Act which I do not see mentioned in this schedule, and I would like to know something about it; that is the Public Health (Medical Inspection of Schoolchildren) Act, 1919. I am not sure what will be the position of that Act when this Bill passes. There does not seem to be any reference to it in the Bill, although I understand that it is the law of the land, and applies in some parts of the country.

Mr. BURKE

That Act is applied at present, but the difficulty is that we have no means of enforcing it. Until the county medical officer is appointed under this Bill we will have no means of putting that Act into operation.

Mr. T. O'CONNELL

Do I take it that once you have the machinery in this Bill set up you will be in a position to apply that measure throughout the country?

Mr. BURKE

Yes.

Mr. CONLAN

Like Deputy Lyons, I am seeking information. I would like to ask the Minister if this Bill will provide procedure by which the owners of houses in towns can be compelled to provide proper sanitary accommodation. I am aware that urban councils have great difficulty at present in enforcing orders owing to the complex provisions of these Acts.

Mr. BURKE

Later on we will find the means of giving power to enforce these orders.

Mr. JOHNSON

I think it is good to have an extension through the whole country of the provisions of these Acts regarding notification, etc., which have hitherto only applied to certain areas. I would like to have more evidence from the Minister as to the value of the provisions of those Acts in some areas where they have been applied, and to what extent the medical profession, and other persons in duty bound to notify, have complied with the provisions of these Acts in their particular areas. There is a question also which, perhaps, the Minister would answer, as to whether the application of these Acts, referred to in the Fourth Schedule, to the whole country would make any difference respecting the powers of urban authorities in respect to country dairies where infection may exist. I refer to such a case as, say, scarlet fever, in a district from which milk comes to town, and I would like to know whether the town authorities will have any added powers under this section in respect to the notification and, perhaps, to the supervision over and authority to control the milk supply coming from such an area. I have quoted scarlet fever, but that, perhaps, may not be the most pertinent from the point of view of infection in respect to milk, but I will say in reference to any infectious disease which may be conveyed through the milk supply. I know that the matter is giving rise to some difficulty in some places and I wonder whether there are any added powers or changes in the law in such matters embodied in this section.

Mr. BURKE

Deputy Johnson has asked for some more detailed information in regard to the incidence of diseases of the kind specified in these various Acts and the effect of notification on them. Unfortunately, owing to the fire in the Customs House, the statistics in my Department are lacking and it is only general statistics that I can give at this moment.

Mr. JOHNSON

Can the Minister say, in general terms, that the medical profession have heartily endeavoured to comply with the Act in respect of notification in these areas where they are bound to notify?

Mr. BURKE

Yes. With regard to the inspection of dairies under the section dealing with the appointment of a whole-time county medical officer, that will be provided for. There is a section, Section 4, in the Infectious Diseases Prevention Act touching on the same point. It states that where a medical officer of health is in possession of evidence that any person in the district suffers from an infectious disease attributable to the milk supply in that area from any dairy within or without that district or that the consumption of milk from such dairy is liable to cause infectious disease, in such district, he shall, at the order of a justice having jurisdiction in the area where the dairy is situated, have power to visit such dairy if accompanied by a qualified veterinary surgeon for the purpose of inspecting the animals therein, and if after such inspection he is of opinion that such disease is caused or is likely to be caused by the consumption of milk from that dairy he shall report to the local authority, and the local authority may give notice to the dairyman to appear before them in not less than twenty-four hours.

Mr. JOHNSON

I think that covers my point.

Question—"That Section 15 stand part of the Bill"— put and agreed to.

SECTION 16.

It shall be the duty of the Minister in the exercise and performance of his powers and duties, to take all such steps as may be desirable to secure the preparation, effective carrying out, and co-ordination of measures conducive to the health of the people, including measures for (a) the prevention and cure of diseases, including the avoidance of fraud in connection with alleged remedies therefor; (b) the treatment of physical and mental defects, including the treatment and care of the blind; (c) the initiation and direction of research, and the collection, preparation, publication, and dissemination of information and statistics relating thereto; (d) the training of persons for health services.

Mr. JOHNSON

I move to delete the section. The object of this amendment is to find out the intention of the section. The section says that it shall be the duty of the Minister in the exercise and performance of his powers and duties to take all such steps as may be desirable and so forth. The powers and duties of the Minister are already defined in the Ministers and Secretaries Act. My desire is to find out whether this section adds anything to the powers of the Minister, for, if so, I want to suggest that those additional powers should be more clearly defined. If, as I suspect, it does not add any powers to the Minister, it is unnecessary. If I may be so rash, I will say that the section reminds me of a resolution of, say, a trades' union congress or a farmers' union, or some other public body which is propagandist in its nature. It rather suggests in a general way what the powers and duties of the Minister should be. As I say the Minister's powers have been defined in the Ministers and Secretaries Acts, and I do not think that this adds anything to these powers, and therefore the section is unnecessary. That is why I asked for its deletion, but I may be wrong in that assumption. It may conceal within its ten or twelve lines something to add to the powers of the Minister. If that is the case, I want these added powers much more clearly defined than they are in the section.

Mr. BURKE

Deputy Johnson is more or less correct in his surmise that this is a publicity section to some extent.

Mr. JOHNSON

The Minister for External Affairs is, I suppose, responsible?

Mr. BURKE

It does not add anything to the powers of the Minister. This section has been inserted at the wish of the medical profession throughout the country. I have got no interest in it apart from that. There is, however, this point about it. If there was a spread of infectious disease in this country, or, suppose our food products in England were suffering from any handicap there, and if medical opinion in England became aroused and said that there was no machinery here to enforce regulations regarding the prevention and spread of diseases of that kind, it would be well to be able to point out that there was a Minister who has functions with regard to these matters. That is the principal idea of having that section in the Bill.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

Instead of deleting the section, I expected Deputy Johnson would be adding something to it. I am rather surprised he did not put down an amendment to add to the duties of the Minister the duty of looking after or initiating medical inspection of school children, which Deputy Johnson and I have very much at heart. There is nothing said about this duty in that particular section, so the Minister may evade it if he wishes.

Mr. JOHNSON

I still have the view that it is quite unnecessary. I am not going to press the matter. The Minister has told us that it does not add to his powers, and is merely a declaratory statement. I would suggest the possibility, though, that if the Minister does not exercise all these duties, and take all such steps as may be desirable, he may be impeached. Perhaps, therefore, it had better be left in! I beg to withdraw the amendment, if I may.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. BAXTER

I move:—

"In line 24, after the word ‘including,' to insert the following: ‘the strict segregation in all public institutions of persons suffering from all forms of venereal disease and.'"

This amendment is put down, in part, to draw from the Minister some statement of his policy on this question. It is such a disagreeable subject that it is very often passed over without discussion, and because of that, perhaps, things are not as we would wish them to be in some of our public institutions. The state of affairs in a certain public institution in my county was brought under my notice about twelve months ago by a clergyman. I admit it was a revelation to me. Since then I have made some inquiries of members of the committee of the county board of health, and what I said was a revelation to them. I do not know what the conditions may be in other counties, but I do know, in one or two counties, at least, that there are in the men's wards of the institutions men suffering from this horrible disease, and in the same ward, in beds side by side with them, other individuals, some infirm, and the same conveniences are used by all these people in that same ward. A similar state of affairs prevails in the women's ward in these institutions. I think it is really appalling that that should be permitted in any institution. Both from a health point of view, and from the moral point of view, there is everything to be said against it, and a change ought to be effected as soon as possible.

A subject like this is not likely to get the discussion by our boards of health that its importance demands. I fear it has been passed over, and is passed over up and down the country, and unless the Ministry takes some action things cannot be expected to improve, because, generally speaking, the representatives on the boards will pass over this matter as quietly as possible. While I agree that, perhaps, in the public hospitals in Dublin conditions are different, and the wording of my amendment might not be exactly acceptable to those who know more than I do about the conditions in those institutions, I feel that in our county hospitals arrangements ought to be made that when people go in suffering from these diseases they ought, wherever possible, to be separated from those other unfortunate people who enter, because of infirmity or old age. They should be kept apart from those infirm and old poor people, who often have to be compelled to live in a ward, and use all the conveniences these other people use. I want to hear from the Minister what is the policy in this matter, and if there is any intention to take steps to have things altered as soon as possible.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

In reading the amendment, I took it in general terms to mean the strict segregation in all the public institutions of persons suffering from all forms of venereal diseases. I took that to mean that all such persons should be segregated in public institutions. However, Deputy Baxter tells me that is not his intention, and that the intention in the amendment is to see where people have been admitted to public institutions suffering from venereal disease that these people shall be segregated or kept in a ward by themselves. Let me say a word or two on the general question: first, as far as the treatment of these diseases is concerned, 95 per cent. of them can be quite safely and well treated outdoor, and are treated outdoor at present. Only about 5 per cent. require hospital or intern treatment on account of complications that arise. If there be any attempt made, as I thought at first this amendment suggested, to segregate these people in institutions who are capable of going about their ordinary occupations, the knowledge of the existence of these diseases would cease, and there would be a cessation of the people who at present are presenting themselves for this outdoor treatment in the hospitals with the most splendid results. At the same time, I will take Deputy Baxter's point of view. These diseases are contagious, but not infectious in the ordinary way; that is to say, that the germs that produce them are carried by some means from persons to persons, and it is quite true, and must be admitted, that if vessels are in contact with persons suffering from these contagious diseases, and if these vessels are brought into contact with healthy persons, in that way the disease might be carried to those other persons.

If any carelessness exists with regard to this, then I think it most advisable that some rule should be adopted by the Local Government Department. I do not know whether they have such a rule as far as institutions as a whole are concerned, because the Local Government Department have no control over hospitals supported by voluntary subscriptions. But in public institutions supported by the rates I think there should be a rule devised by the Local Government Department insisting that where people suffering from venereal disease have been admitted to those institutions they should be kept apart, and the greatest care exercised as regards instruments or anything that is used in eating, such as knives, forks, plates, and other utensils. The utmost care should be taken that articles used by diseased people should not be used by healthy people in the ward. Deputy Baxter suggests that that is not being done, that no care is taken, that people are lying in bed suffering from this disease side by side with others, and that it is possible that the same utensils are used by both classes of patients. That is a great danger. If Deputy Baxter wants anything carried in the nature of an amendment he must modify his proposal by inserting the following words, "strict segregation in all public institutions, supported by the rates, of persons who have been admitted therein and are suffering from venereal disease." I do not think it is necessary that this amendment should be passed. I think the Local Government Department should have a rule that those cases be kept apart.

Major MYLES

I cannot gather from Deputy Baxter whether he refers to county homes or hospitals.

Mr. BAXTER

County homes.

Major MYLES

If he refers to county homes, I would point out that venereal diseases are not treated in county homes, and that nobody is allowed in the county homes except the old and infirm. No able-bodied man or woman is allowed into a county home. Again, if he refers to hospitals, I think he has a very poor opinion of doctors if he thinks they would allow such a state of affairs in any hospital.

Mr. BAXTER

Deputy Myles may call it what he likes. I am stating the conditions as I have found them on investigation of a county home.

Major MYLES

Has such a thing been known definitely, because I think it is a terrible state of affairs?

Mr. BAXTER

Unfortunately it is true and I regret to have to bring it forward here. It was a revelation to myself and only it was brought to my notice by a clergyman I would not know of it. When it was brought by me to the notice of the committee they had no knowledge of it.

Mr. JOHNSON

I do not think this amendment would fit in with this declaratory resolution and add to its value. I suggest there is a little misunderstanding. As I understand, Deputy Baxter is referring not primarily to people treated for venereal disease but to people who may be brought into hospital suffering from other diseases, and yet who may be suffering from that disease.

Mr. BAXTER

Supposing people were destitute and brought into a county home?

Mr. BURKE

The Deputy has raised a point that is rather difficult to deal with. I thought first of all he was referring to cases in county hospitals that were being treated for this disease. I do not know what action can be taken in a county home, because in the ordinary course of events such a patient should not be in there but should be in a county hospital. Treatment of the disease is difficult, because the term "venereal disease" is a comprehensive one, and the effects of the discase are manifold. There are very few diseases but may have had their origin in some venereal affection, or may have predisposed the patient to the disease. You may get a patient suffering from bone disease or rheumatism, or something of that kind, that may have had a venereal origin. In some cases the disease is infectious, in others it is not. Sometimes it may be latent and it may break out at different periods. It might inflict serious hardship on individuals to have them segregated in the way mentioned. It may prevent them seeking treatment. At the present time many women are suffering from the disease who do not know it. If they knew they were to be segregated and branded with the stigma of this disease they might not go in for treatment at all. It is a big question to go into.

At the present time the Government is being very much exercised by it, and my solution of the problem is to appoint a consultative council under the provisions of the next section to inquire into the whole matter regarding the spread of venereal disease. In the first instance, the duty is on the medical officer of a hospital to see that this or any other infectious disease does not spread, and he would be guilty of neglect amounting to criminal neglect if he allowed a person to contract a disease of this kind owing to not having his patients properly isolated when suffering from a malignant form of the disease. I am afraid, in the first instance, that this will have to be left to the discretion of the medical officer. It would be impossible to devise rules and regulations from our point of view that would be capable of having the effect that Deputy Baxter seeks, without at the same time inflicting grave hardships on people who may be suffering from the conseqence of the disease which they may have contracted innocently. A surgeon may acquire this disease in performing an operation, or it may be congenital. On the whole, it is a matter that could not be dealt with in this rough-and-ready way. It is a delicate matter, and we can only devise means of dealing with it after consultation with those people who can give us expert advice. I cannot accept the amendment, but I think it is a good thing to raise the matter here to allow us to get the views of the Dáil on it. I was not aware of the fact that cases, such as Deputy Baxter mentioned, were to be found in county homes, and I am very sorry to hear it. In the ordinary course of events, such things could not occur.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment 13 (a) not moved.

Motion made—"That the Section stand part of the Bill."

Major COOPER

Before we confer on the Minister those powers formally, I want to impeach him. Deputy Johnson foresaw the possibility. Among the powers given to the Minister we have (b) the treatment of physical and mental defects, including the treatment and care of the blind. It will be within the memory of Deputies that when the Old Age Pensions Act was passing through the Dáil considerable opposition was manifested to the reduction in the pensions of the blind. While Deputy Johnson found me unsympathetic on other matters, I agreed with him on this. We obtained a pledge from the Minister for Finance that if the responsible Minister would put up a scheme for ameliorating the condition of the blind by training or otherwise he would divide up for that purpose the money saved by not having the blind pensions. As far as I know, the Minister has not put up any scheme, and before I agree to confer on him those powers, I want to get a promise from him that he will consider this matter and put forward a workable scheme. The Minister for Finance cannot get away from his pledge. It only remains for the Minister for Public Health or his Department to take up the matter. I earnestly hope that when he replies he will tell us the scheme is already in being and only requires pressure created in the Dáil to put it in force.

Mr. BURKE

We provide a grant of £6,500 for the blind, and it is open to the local authority to propose schemes. We are willing to adopt them if they do and to provide for the relief of the blind in institutions such as Deputy Cooper suggests. At the moment I have not devised any particular scheme for relief in general. It has not been brought home to me in any way that it is imperatively necessary at the moment.

Major COOPER

Does not the Minister realise that it is a very unusual situation for the Minister for Finance to leave money waiting for a Minister and not to have that money used. His attention being drawn to the matter now, will he consider it?

Mr. JOHNSON

May I also add that if this section is carried it will not be enough for him to wait until the local authorities present schemes. It will be his duty, if this section means anything, to take all steps that are necessary to secure the treatment of physical and mental defects, including the treatment and care of the blind, and the training of persons for such services. I did not think that it added anything to the powers, duties and functions connected with public health which had been given to the Minister already. I am beginning to think that there is a good deal to be said for this section and that the Minister will not be able any longer to say that the local bodies had failed to initiate schemes and that therefore he could not act. If this is carried, we shall be able at any time to say it is his duty, notwithstanding the failure of the local authority to take the necessary steps to secure the prevention and cure of disease. If this money that has been taken from the blind pensioners is available for schemes of treatment and the care of the blind, then as soon as this becomes law we shall look to the Minister to find a way of spending those moneys economically and effectively.

Mr. BURKE

My impeachment in this matter has been carried out in a very perfunctory way. I am afraid that Deputy Cooper had not his brief prepared. He should have brought forward evidence to substantiate his charge. The onus of proof is on him, for the present at all events. So far as I am aware, I have not been negligent in my treatment of the blind. I am glad that the Minister for Finance is available, if we find it necessary to call upon him. So far there has been no case of hardship brought to my notice on account of there not being sufficient funds available for the blind. We spend every year £6,500 for the blind, and, as far as I am aware, that is adequate. If Deputy Cooper is prepared to bring forward evidence that the blind are suffering as a result of my administration, I will be happy to carry out his views.

Question put and agreed to.

SECTION 17.

(1) It shall be lawful for the Minister by order to establish consultative councils for giving, in the manner prescribed by the order, advice and assistance to the Minister in connection with such matters affecting or incidental to the health of the people as may be specified in the order.

(2) Payments may be made by the Minister, out of moneys to be voted by the Oireachtas, to members of consultative councils and committees thereof, to such extent as may be sanctioned by the Minister for Finance, in respect of the following matters, that is to say —

(a) repayment of travelling expenses,

(b) payment of subsistence allowance,

(c) reasonable compensation for loss of remunerative time.

(3) Every consultative council established under this section shall consist of persons having practical experience of the matters in respect of which they are to give advice or assistance.

Major COOPER

I rise to a point of order on Section 17. Are we in order in proceeding with a section which proposes to vote money, with no member of the Executive Council present. If the Minister for Finance had just gone out, I would not call attention to it, but he has now gone out for over a quarter of an hour. We have a right to have a member of the Executive Council here, and certainly in a debate on a financial matter a member of the Executive Council should be present. Would I be in order in moving to report progress?

Mr. BURKE

The Seanad is meeting to-day, and I know that certain members of the Executive Council are busily engaged over there. Perhaps the Minister's presence is required over there for a few minutes.

Major COOPER

The Minister has been in the Dáil all the time, but I believe the Seanad rose more than half-an-hour ago. If it will convenience the Minister, I will not move to report progress, but I suggest that you should adjourn for half-an-hour to enable a member of the Executive Council to be present.

The MINISTER for FINANCE (Mr. Blythe)

entered the Chamber, and the business was proceeded with.

Mr. JOHNSON

I beg to move:—

To delete the section and to substitute a new section as follows:

(1) For the purpose of giving advice and assistance to the Minister in connection with the exercise and performance of his powers and duties in matters affecting or incidental to the health of the people there shall be established a public health council.

(2) The public health council shall consist of the following persons:—Eight persons representing boards of health, appointed by the Minister after consultation with such boards or a representative association thereof: Four persons representing councils of county boroughs, appointed by the Minister after consultation with such councils: Three persons being registered medical practitioners, appointed by the Minister after consultation with organisations of such practitioners, at least two of such persons being registered on the medical register in respect of a diploma in sanitary science, public health, or State medicine: One person being a registered dentist, appointed by the Minister so as to represent such dentists after consultation with any association thereof: One person being a registered veterinary surgeon, appointed by the Minister so as to represent such surgeons after consultation with any association thereof: Two persons representing registered nurses, appointed by the Minister after consultation with association thereof: Two persons representing certified midwives, appointed by the Minister after consultation with associations thereof.

(3) The Minister may make regulations for the purpose of increasing the membership of the public health council so as to provide for the representation of insured persons or of approved societies under the National Health Insurance Acts, 1911 to 1924, or any Act amending those Acts.

(4) The public health council shall meet at least twice in every year for the purpose of considering matters of public interest in connection with the health of the people and giving such advice to the Minister thereon as he shall think fit.

(5) The Minister may make general regulations for regulating the proceedings and quorum of the public health council, and the council shall act in accordance with those regulations.

(6) The Minister shall be ex officio a member of the public health council, but shall not, save as hereinafter provided, vote at any meeting of the council.

(7) The Minister may take the chair at any meeting of the public health council and in such case shall have a casting vote.

(8) In the absence of the Minister, an officer of the Minister appointed by him may attend a meeting of the public health council.

(9) The Minister may require any of his officers to act as secretary or other officer of the public health council.

(10) The public health council may appoint committees consisting of members of the council or of members and other persons for the purpose of considering matters referred to such committees by the council.

(11) Payments may be made by the Minister, out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas, to members of the public health council and committees thereof, to such extent as may be sanctioned by the Minister for Finance, in respect of the following matters, that is to say:—

(a) repayment of travelling expenses.

(b) payment of subsistence allowance.

(c) reasonable compensation for loss of remunerative time.

Section 17 gives power to the Minister to establish consultative councils in connection with such matters affecting, or incidental to, the health of the people as may be specified in the order. Every consultative council established under this section consists of persons having practical experience as to the matter in respect of which they are to give advice or assistance. A few moments ago the Minister indicated what he meant when he asked for power to establish consultative councils. A specific evil is present and he wishes to establish a consultative council to advise him with respect to that specific evil. That is very good, but I do not think that the Minister, when proposing to get these powers, is meeting the requirements of the case to any appreciable degree. The proposal is that the Minister may appoint such a council to deal with specific subjects, to be constituted in any way he pleases. It is not intended that these councils should have initiative. They shall not be required to consider subjects for suggestion or submission to the Minister. It is presumably intended that a council should be formed ad hoc to deal with specific matters referred to them by the Minister. The Public Health Council that was set up some years ago made a report which was, I think, a very valuable one in many respects. That body reported in favour of the establishment of a health council to advise the Ministry generally respecting all matters affecting public health. The recommendation was: “The formation within the Ministry of a health council composed of representatives of public and professional interests, to which will be entrusted the general direction of policy in regard to the administration of medical and health services in Ireland.” The body that made that recommendation was a body of very experienced and responsible persons. It included the Medical Commissioner of the Local Government Board, Dr. Coey Biggar, Sir Henry Robinson, Sir Joseph Glynn, Dr. Maguire, Mrs. Dickie, Dr. Rowlette, and several others, and it was a very carefully considered and well thought out report. In one or two respects it is out of date, inasmuch as we have now a definite Ministry of Public Health, but there is still required a body such as a public health council, which will be permanently in existence to advise generally and inspire, if I might say so, the public health side of the Minister's work.

We must bear in mind that the Minister is a Minister not only of public health. His functions are very much wider than the mere consideration of public health and medical affairs, and it was believed by that council, and I believe that it would add very greatly to the prestige and authority of his Department, on the public health side, if there was in existence a council of the kind that is proposed in the amendment. Within that council, or from that council, there may well be selected consultative committees to deal with specific matters that may be referred to them by the Minister, such as are touched upon in this section. But much more than that is needed. There was some difference of opinion on the part of this committee that made its report in 1920 respecting the internal organisation of the Ministry of Public Health, but there was no difference of opinion amongst these fifteen or twenty persons, of long experience and a good deal of responsibility, in respect to the necessity for a health council, and giving that council considerable powers, not, let me say, depriving the Minister of his powers and his responsibility, but a council advisory and fitting in with the scheme of government which we have adopted, and yet a body which might be looked upon by the Minister as capable of giving him authoritative advice and expert direction.

The proposals in the amendment are that such council shall be somewhat different from the proposals in the report of the Public Health Council, set up in 1920. The proposals in the amendment follow the plan somewhat of the late Council of Agriculture, and the composition is somewhat different from the composition recommended by the Public Health Council, or as represented by Deputy Sir James Craig. We make provision for eight representatives of the boards of health, four representatives of the county boroughs which are outside the county health districts, three of them to be representatives of the medical profession, one of the dental profession, one of the veterinary surgeons, one of the nurses, perhaps one of the midwives, and leaving open the question of the representation of health insurance societies, inasmuch as there is sitting a committee which presumably will report upon the relations of the health insurance societies to the Ministry of Health. It may be desirable that there should be representatives of the health insurance societies upon any public health council.

There is not at present anybody or any authority, except the Minister himself, which might be said to be a unifying, co-relating, or stimulating authority in matters of public health. As I said, the Minister has very much wider responsibilities than the supervision of public health. No doubt he has expert advisers, but the expert advisers are unknown to the public; they cannot speak with the same authority as an advisory council of the kind that is referred to in the amendment, and they cannot stimulate or educate public opinion in the same way that such a council would. I would suggest for the consideration of the Minister and the House that is a very important part indeed of the work of public health administration, the interesting of the public in matters of public health and getting the consent, approval and co-operation of the public in the administration of public health laws. When a proposal comes out from the Minister on the advice of his expert representatives, who may or may not be known to the public — in the main are not known to the public — it will not have the same force as a proposal of the kind would if it were backed by a council of this kind. If there is a council representative of all the interests whose business it is to promote public health, to prevent disease, advising the Minister, stimulating public action, creating public opinion — and shall I say?—directing public policy in respect of health affairs, the hope of general co-operation will be very much the greater and it will more likely be realised than if there is no such council. If there is any fear that the creation of a council of this kind will cut across Ministerial responsibilities I think that fear may be dispelled.

The proposal in the amendment would not at all deprive the Minister of his powers and responsibility, but the council would be empowered to consider proposals, schemes and plans on their own initiative, and make those proposals to the Minister. If he thought well to incorporate them into administrative action or into legislation he would have immensely more authority, both with the public and the legislature, than he could have without such a body. The intention of the amendment is that such a council shall meet twice a year at least, and that the Minister would preside at such conferences. I think that the proposal is one which will add very greatly to the Bill and give a good deal more confidence in public health administration in the future, and will inspire the public, I think, with a desire to assist in that administration and co-operate in the general work of public health. I commend this proposal to the Dáil as a better one than the proposal in the Bill, one which would not necessarily cost more money, perhaps would cost less money, if there are to be many consultative councils set up. I would say that the extra cost, if there is to be such, would be very well repaid in value received. Consultative councils or consultative committees, as I have said already, for specific purposes, can still be appointed, and are likely to be much more satisfactory if appointed from or by this council than by the manner set out in the section. I would ask the Dáil to give fair consideration to the proposal, and eventually, I hope, to embody it in the Bill.

Mr. GEORGE NICHOLLS

took the Chair.

Major COOPER

If Deputy Johnson chooses to move his amendment in the absence of an Executive Council Minister, I am willing that he should do so——

Mr. JOHNSON

The Minister was present when I got up to move it.

Major COOPER

But I am not willing that we should proceed with its consideration, and I ask you, sir, whether you will take a motion to report progress. The Seanad is not sitting; I have been over there and the place is in darkness. There are three Executive Ministers in the precincts of the Dáil having tea. If they can have tea, why should we not have tea? Will you take a motion to report progress? Standing Order 83 says: "In considering a Bill a Special Committee may at any time, adjourn, and the Dáil sitting in Committee may, at any time, report progress, provided that a motion to this effect has been carried. Any such motion which is deemed by the Chairman to be dilatory or obstructive shall not be accepted." This is not a dilatory or obstructive motion. It is the assertion of a constitutional principle that where the Dáil is asked to consider matters involving expenditure of public money not merely an External Minister but an Executive Minister who is responsible for the expenditure of money shall be here. I move to report progress, if you will accept the motion.

Mr. BURKE

I think so long as a substantive resolution is not under discussion there is no necessity to have a member of the Executive Council present. The Minister for Finance remained here while the substantive resolution was under discussion, but he said that he had an important interview and could not spend time here while an amendment was being discussed.

Major COOPER

The Minister for Finance is necessary. As a matter of fact no amendment can be moved until the section is under discussion and comes under consideration. But apart from that the Minister for Finance is not the only Minister. Where is the Minister for External Affairs? Has he been so exhausted by three hours' work in the Seanad, if he has been there? I understood that the Seanad has been discussing a Bill in which the Minister for Agriculture was interested. I think it is treating the Dáil farcically that no Executive Minister should be here.

Mr. MORRISSEY

I second the motion.

ACTING-CHAIRMAN

I will accept the motion.

Mr. A. BYRNE

Before you put the motion, might I draw attention to the rights and privileges of Deputies? There is an unwritten rule that no Deputy would draw attention to the absence of Deputies during tea time. After all, I think we agreed some time ago that we would do our best to keep a quorum between the hours of 6 and 7, and as it is now 10 minutes to seven, I do not think we ought to adopt the drastic step that Deputy Cooper has proposed.

I only rise to remind the Dáil that we agreed not to draw any attention to the want of a quorum between the hours of 6 o'clock and 7 o'clock. The Ministers who are gone to tea are entitled to a little relief, and they are entitled to get away during the hours upon which we agreed.

Major COOPER

I may say that I never heard of any such agreement.

Mr. A. BYRNE

There was an understanding arrived at on that subject many a time.

Dr. KEOGH

Under the Standing Orders I do not think it is necessary to have a quorum when on the Committee Stage, between either the hours of 6 o'clock and 7 o'clock, or any other hours for that matter.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

I see that the Minister has now arrived, and I suggest that we should now proceed with the business. I am really anxious to deal with this matter, and now that the Minister is here, I think that Deputy Cooper might withdraw his proposal.

Major COOPER

If the Minister is going to stay, and does not intend to come in and go out again, I am quite willing to withdraw.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I am not sure that I perfectly understand the situation.

Major COOPER

Hear, hear.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I may, however, say this: If a Minister is not allowed to have his tea without Deputies coming out to spy and count heads and then come back here and report that a Minister is having certain sustenance, then the Dáil has got to a very peculiar pitch. I require to be fed just as well as anybody else, and I think it is for myself to choose, when I please, the time when I shall eat. I do not think it is the rule of this House, nor do I regard it as an essential, that a Minister should be in the Dáil when a clause in the Bill, which covers the same ground as the Financial Resolution previously moved, is under consideration. I regard it really as very derogatory to the dignity of the House that any Deputy should indulge in the statements that I understand Deputy Cooper has indulged in.

Major COOPER

As a matter of personal explanation, I would like to inform the Minister that the only reason why I tried to see if there were Ministers available, was because the Minister for Local Government and Public Health had stated that several Ministers were engaged in the Seanad. Nobody, of course, would desire to prevent any Minister from having tea, but Ministers should arrange to relieve each other so that there should be some Executive Minister responsible to the Dáil always here. Even if we had Private Members' business under consideration, we should always have the guidance of a member of the Executive Council. That is a constitutional principle which I assert and which the Dáil should assert. I am accused of having spied. If I did so, I apologise, and I hope the Minister will accept my apology. I am rather heated in this matter and I may have acted wrongly. If so, I hope the Minister will accept my apology.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

If I may again intervene, I do not think that this matter has gone to the point of having an apology made or accepted. The Deputy has vehemently asserted the point of view he holds. I want, with equal vehemence, to repudiate that. I do not at all accept that as a principle. Is it suggested that the Minister responsible to the Dáil is not competent to carry on the business of his own Department in the Dáil? I think he is quite competent, and it is quite in accordance with the dignity of the House, when other Ministers are entirely occupied with their business, that one Minister would be left here to handle affairs on his own.

ACTING-CHAIRMAN

Does Deputy Cooper propose any motion?

Major COOPER

No; I withdraw.

Mr. JOHNSON

If I may say so, I think that the question of how many Ministers should be present, when a matter of great importance like this Local Government Bill is under discussion, may be said to be for the discretion of the Ministers themselves. But it does suggest itself to me that where very important matters — and in this case, matters which involve payment of moneys out of the Exchequer are under consideration—the Minister in charge of the Bill should not be left entirely unsupported, even on the Benches behind him, as frequently has been the case. Apart from that, I think there is a good deal of point in Deputy Cooper's complaint that in this Bill, to a degree noticeable, the Minister in charge has been left alone to deal with any criticism. The Minister appears not to have had the support of the other Ministers in piloting the Bill through. I think the constitutional point is not so great as Deputy Cooper has suggested. I think the question is between Ministers, though the point may be considered quite a considerable one.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

I suppose the matter is now ended?

ACTING-CHAIRMAN

It is.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

I want to support, in the very strongest manner, the amendment that has been proposed by Deputy Johnson, which is more or less the same as the amendment which stands in my name and which follows on the amendment Paper. There were two things that I have been interested in ever since I first tried to impress upon the Dáil the necessity for some improvement in the public health service of the country. One was the appointment of a fully qualified fulltime county medical officer, who would devote all his attention to his work, and be responsible eventually to the Minister; the other was that there should be a public health advisory council that would be able to initiate matters and give advice to the Minister. The first of these is provided for in the Bill. The second is not provided for in anything like the way I would like to see it provided for. I called attention, during the Second Reading, to the fact that I had the greatest possible objection to the appointment of consultative committees that may be appointed by the Minister, that he may never call to his aid, that can only discuss with him matters he himself lays before them for discussion, and that cannot initiate matters of public utility and public benefit. Deputy Johnson has alluded to the public health council, that was appointed by the Ministry for Health Act, 1919. In addition to the public health council, that Act appointed at the same time the Chief Secretary as Minister for Health.

In appointing this public health council, the preamble stated that it was appointed for the purpose of giving advice and assistance and making proposals to the Minister for Health. It will be seen from this that that council was clearly empowered to make proposals on its own initiative. As Deputy Johnson said, this public council sat for many months. They were a very important and well-informed body in regard to public health, and in 1920 they eventually issued a report, that has also been referred to. They made certain proposals, which included an Irish Public Health Bill. This Bill was to improve the public health service in the country. That public health council was appointed under the Act of 1919, and it has been allowed to expire. Deputy Johnson's amendment is an attempt to resuscitate this very important council. As Deputy Johnson said, the council made certain recommendations. They recommended the appointment of a ministry of health. The Government have met us half way in that; they have called the Minister for Local Government also the Minister for Public Health. They objected to a separate minister for health, and I agreed with the Government then, that perhaps the expenditure would be too great. I pointed out then, and I would point out still, with all due respect to the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, that he knows nothing about public health, and that it would be a great advantage to the Dáil if, when a separate minister for public health was not appointed, that a parliamentary secretary would be appointed who would be able to give information to the Dáil, more direct information than the Minister could, who is not quite in touch with public health matters. Another recommendation was the formation of a public health council. The Deputy and I put down amendments. I have copied exactly the personnel of the council selected by this public health council. Deputy Johnson has enlarged upon it. Perhaps if I were to find fault with his amendment it would be that the committee he has suggested is too large. As far as I remember, there are fifteen members on the committee suggested by the council. I think Deputy Johnson has suggested something like twenty-one members on his public health council.

In the recommendations that a public council should be formed, it was to be composed of representatives of public and professional interests to which should be entrusted the general direction of policy in regard to the administration of medical and health services in Ireland. So far we have settled the county unit as the area of local administration, and by means of the committees that I am sure will be appointed by the public health boards, we have linked up, as far as my estimation is concerned, the districts with the central local authorities, namely, the county councils through the public health boards. But what we have not done, and what the Bill does not do anything like sufficiently, is to connect the local rating authority and the public health authority in the country with the central authority here. The Minister for Local Government and Public Health is the central figure here. He is the head of the central health authority, and as he will tell us the Bill provides for the formation of certain consultative committees. These are not sufficient. This central health council that Deputy Johnson is proposing, or advisory board, as I have called it, is absolutely necessary. This will bring the local rating authorities into close connection with the central health administration. It would get the support of the medical profession in the country, because there is a provision made that the medical profession should be represented on this council as well. Finally, there are the voluntary nursing associations working in the country, and, in my opinion, it will be extremely advisable that these people working down in the country should be able, by sitting on an advisory council, to give advice as to the matters I have referred to before — that is, as to the medical inspection and treatment of school children. The people who are engaged in that work, I believe, should be in touch with the Minister so as to give him advice to work out a policy and suggest the changes that might be made. It would create a far greater interest in the public health of the country if they thought they were in touch with the central authority here. The object aimed at by setting up this council and advisory board is that the local bodies would be in a position to have their needs and interests inquired into, and, secondly, the Minister will be kept fully in touch, and will be more likely to have the support of the public and the profession generally.

Deputy Johnson has touched upon another point that I think is of importance. Although the provision in the Bill suggests that these consultative committees should be some way qualified to deal with matters that would crop up, Deputy Johnson wisely said that his proposal does not interfere with the adoption of committees that would deal ad hoc with certain matters. That does not interfere with the formation of the health council. What I have been pressing for on the Second Reading was that we should have specified the qualifications of the people who were going to serve on those committees. That is to say, there are certain representatives in the local rating authorities who should get their interest represented, and that the medical profession, the veterinary profession, the dental profession, and the nursing profession should be represented. I think it is absolutely necessary that these qualifications should be specified in regard to the personnel of the council. I have stated before, and I state again, that I feel with regard to the proposal in the Bill that the Minister may appoint anybody he likes, whom he may consider has qualifications for the post. But he may not be capable of judging whether they have these qualifications or not. In the second place, as I have said before, there is nothing obligatory either to call these people together or ask their advice. If the Minister does call them together he can lay before them whatever he likes and not allow them to discuss any matters which would initiate a public health policy on their part. I therefore support in the strongest way the amendment proposed by Deputy Johnson.

Mr. BURKE

I was not surprised to see Deputy Sir James Craig bringing forward an amendment of this kind. It was at least similar to what Deputy Johnson has moved. Deputy Sir James Craig is a distinguished representative in the Dáil of an eminent profession. It is only natural that he should take upon himself the duty of looking after the interests of that profession in every possible way. I consider that the proposal of consultative councils, constituted as suggested, would probably be to the interests of the people interested, such as nurses, doctors, veterinary surgeons, etc. But I cannot see so clearly why Deputy Johnson is so interested in this matter, because I think that if such a body were set up, it would amount to a serious hampering and a serious interference with the rights and prerogatives of the Dáil. The suggestion for an advisory board of this type appears in paragraph 27 of the report of the first public health council. This paragraph recommends that the general policy and the principles of administration of public health and medical service, should be subject to the general control and direction of the health council, constituted on the lines set out in the amendments. The central authority recommended in paragraph 26 (a) and (b) was the Chief Secretary. The Chief Secretary in those times had very little time to devote to public health matters. His hands were, for the most part, preoccupied with political measures, measures for enforcing law and order as understood in those days. He had very little time to deal with public health matters. He came over here a stranger in the country. As a general rule he was only left here for a short time, too short a time to learn the peculiar conditions that prevailed in the country. He came over here and was asked to administer laws passed in Great Britain and applicable to English conditions, and which would only be made applicable to conditions in Ireland by a liberal use of scissors and paste. Such an officer coming over to Ireland to administer laws that were not in the first instance made for Ireland was placed in a very peculiar position. Without the assistance of a council, composed of representatives of the profession interested in public health and local authorities, it would be practically impossible that such an officer could carry on, and it was undoubtedly a proper thing at that time to set up a council or body such as is recommended in Deputy Sir James Craig's and Deputy Johnson's amendment, with some differences.

I oppose the two amendments on the same grounds. We are in a totally different position now. Our legislation is passed by an Irish Parliament, and Irish conditions are present to our minds all the time when we are legislating. The law is to be administered by an Irish Minister, not by an English Chief Secretary. Any advice I require in this matter I much prefer to get from this Dáil, which is the most representative assembly in the country, and a totally disinterested assembly, rather than from a body such as that proposed by Deputy Johnson, which, I say, without meaning any offence to the people interested in it, would, to the extent of two-thirds, be more interested in the particular professions they represent than the interests of the nation as a whole.

Mr. JOHNSON

What proportion is 12 to 21?

Mr. BURKE

I will make the Deputy a present of that. Even if it was only to the extent of 10 per cent.——

Sir JAMES CRAIG

Would the Minister say in what way my profession would benefit by serving on a public health council?

Mr. BURKE

I mean that naturally an advisory council of that kind would have the interests of the profession at heart, and would be continually prompting me as to what is the best thing for the profession and suggesting that I should adopt this measure or that measure, oftentimes regardless of whether it was to the interest of the ratepayers or not. They would have in mind more the interest of their own professions than they would that of the general public. I prefer in matters of general policy to be guided rather by the Dáil than by an advisory council of that kind. The type of council I need in this matter is a council that would give me expert advice in case of any sudden emergency, of any difficulty with which my Department is not in a position to cope. If there was a serious outbreak of influenza of an abnormal kind, an advisory council consisting of nurses, veterinary surgeons and ordinary country practitioners would be of very little assistance to me. If the plague or some unusual disease of that kind broke out, it would be necessary for me to be in a position, if necessary, to go to Vienna to get experts to deal with that particular problem. That is the object I had in view.

Deputy Sir James Craig, of course, throws doubt on my capacity to deal with problems of this kind, and says that perhaps the medical men would be in a better position to deal with public health matters. But, as a matter of fact, when the Ministry of Health was set up in England, on the first occasion they appointed a medical officer as Minister of Health. For some reason, that has not been stated, that officer was never subsequently appointed.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

Purely political reasons.

Mr. BURKE

Ministers have been appointed since, and on each occasion they have been laymen. I do not want to press that point further. As I say, a council of this kind would be of very little assistance to me. The other consultative council would be of very great assistance, and under no circumstances would I agree to drop it. If I were to have the two councils of the type suggested by Deputies Sir James Craig and Johnson, as well as this council, it would be necessary to seek another grant from the Ministry of Finance, as there is not sufficient provision made in the Bill. I could not approve of the setting up of such a council under any circumstances. I go even further and say that if such a body were in existence when this Ministry was set up, it would be the duty of the Minister to dissolve it. In doing so I would be acting on precedent. We had the analogy of the Congested Districts Board and of the Commissioners of National Education. There was no necessity for the Commissioners of National Education after a Ministry of Education was set up, and after we had a national assembly to legislate for Ireland and to guide the Minister in the administration of his Department.

Mr. JOHNSON

We have now the mind of the Minister revealed. He was appointed as Minister to look after local government, public health, housing, poor law, road administration, elections, registration of voters old age pensions, and several other things, but he does not need advice in the administration of these Departments, or any of them, except the advice that he can get from the Dáil. I want to know whether it is his conception of the business of the Dáil that it is to be an administrative authority. Is it our business to help him in the administration of his Department? If it is, then I suggest he should take a method which has not yet been taken, and that is, to ask for the appointment of a committee of the Dáil to assist him. Quite a reasonable proposition; one which may eventually have to be adopted, but one which has not yet been considered by the Dáil, or embodied in the Constitution. Apart from that, how is the Minister going to receive directions as to policy in matters of public health from the Dáil? In a broad and general way it might be possible occasionally in the course of a Session for the Dáil to pass resolutions respecting matters of public health. But, does anybody suggest that it is within the competence of the Dáil to deal in any efficient way with the policy of administration for the prevention and cure of disease? Nobody would pretend it. We can raise questions, we can discuss methods, we can criticise the administration, but who will pretend that the Dáil is competent to bring forward concrete proposals, to initiate detailed administrative methods to the Minister in matters of public health? The Minister knows that is impracticable. He really wants to have all the power in this matter in his hands, and that he should act not on the advice of any body who has the ear of the public, and help thereby to educate the public, but on the advice of his administrative officers against whom I have not a word to say. I know nothing of their competence, and I assume that they are the most competent people in the country.

The Minister says that he, as Minister, is quite capable without the assistance of any such body as is adumbrated in these proposals, to administer the affairs of public health in this country, in addition to affairs relating to housing, poor law, local government, registration, elections and all the other matters that come under his Department. He says that while it may have been necessary to have such a body when there was only a Chief Secretary to administer laws which were passed in England it is now no longer necessary. If we rule the Dáil out in matters of detail respecting administration what is the difference between his Department of Public Health and the Department of Public Health that existed before 1921? Apparently the Minister thinks that it is a good enough answer to the very serious and carefully-thought-out suggestion of Deputy Sir James Craig and the amendment that I have moved, to suggest that the medical profession in backing any proposal is only thinking of its own interests. The medical profession will thank him for that. If any public purpose is to be served by his administration of public health he will have to secure the co-operation of the medical profession. He starts off by saying that in any proposal of this kind to associate the medical profession with administration they will be only looking after their own interests. I wish there were more doctors in the Dáil. I think the Minister has not done himself justice in this. He suggested that two-thirds of the members of the council would be professional people looking after their own interests. The proposal is that there shall be twelve representatives of the elected councils who are locally responsible for administration, and nine others representative of the various elements professionally affected, not only in the cure but in the prevention of disease.

I wonder does the Minister realise that the new view, shall I say the modern view, respecting the functions of the medical profession has been prevention rather than the cure of disease. I wonder have such views ever reached him. If they have, and if he accepts it as part of the business of the medical profession, does he not see that if they were perfectly successful in preventing disease, or as widely successful as it is humanly possible to be, they would be killing their professional interests, and yet, does he deny that they do seek to prevent disease? If the people who have expert knowledge of the causes of disease, the means of curing disease, and more particularly the precautions necessary to prevent disease, are not to be called in to assist and give active co-operation in the direction of policy, then we have to say good-bye to any commonsense, let alone any good-will, as between the Ministry and the persons concerned. The Minister, in taking up the very rigid position he has taken in this matter, reveals, as I said, the mind behind the whole Bill.

While Deputy Sir James Craig has generally supported provisions relating to public health embodied in the Bill, because he believed they were going to benefit public health administration, I think he will see now that there was more in the opposition to local autonomy in other matters than he saw before. We now find that the idea of bureaucracy is firmly implanted in the Minister's mind. He wants to centralise in officialdom all power or authority, and that they shall not even accept advice, except on special occasions, for special purposes, from persons who may be said to be interested in public affairs. I regret that the Minister has taken this stand. I thought he would have seen how valuable an assistance this would be to the administration of his Department. I hope he will either withdraw his references to the medical profession, or that the medical profession will let him know what they think of him.

Mr. GOOD

I am sorry to have to differ with such an eminent authority as Deputy Sir James Craig is on a matter of this kind. It appears to me that the difference between the amendment and the original Bill is a very marked one. The Minister proposes in the original Bill that he shall have the right to set up an advisory committee, should occasion require it. The proposal in the amendment is that a permanent advisory committee shall be set up which shall meet twice every year. That permanent advisory committee is not to have any executive powers. The amendment states that its duties are to be as follows:—

"Considering matters of public in connection with the health of the people, and giving such advice to the Minister thereon as it shall think fit."

Whether the advice is necessary, or whether it is useful, we are to have this permanent committee set up to meet twice a year at considerable public expense to tender that advice.

What is the position under the Bill, looking at it as practical men? We have twenty-six counties in the Free State, and under the Bill, I take it, we will have twenty-six boards of health. That is to say, we will have twenty-six boards of health advising the Ministry, and on top of that it is proposed to attach another advisory board. We will have something to say later on about the expense that is going to be incurred under another section of the Bill. There is a growing feeling, for which there is a good deal of substance outside this Dáil, that we already have too many officials in connection with the Government of the Free State. I look upon this proposition as an ordinary citizen, not possessing any special skill, and I am inclined to come to the conclusion that twenty-six boards of health, each advising the Ministry in connection with the matters that come under their jurisdiction, would certainly be adequate, if not too much. As far as I am concerned, I am not prepared to support any proposal that will add a further unnecessary number of officials to the government of the country, or a further unnecessary number of advisory people who are to meet at least twice a year at the expense of the State.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

resumed the Chair.

Mr. GOOD

Deputy Johnson, who has been most anxious all through the discussion of this Bill to set up committees, which, as far as I can see, will have very few duties to perform, stated that what he had in his mind was something similar to the committees that existed under the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction. May I carry Deputy Johnson's mind back to the duties performed by these committees to show that there is practically no analogy at all between their duties and the duties which it is proposed the committees to be set up under this Bill should perform.

Mr. JOHNSON

All I said in that respect was that the form of the committee, the form of election and representation, was based upon the form constituting the Council of Agriculture.

Mr. GOOD

I quite accept what Deputy Johnson states, but I think he also had in his mind that the duties possibly were somewhat similar. If he did not say so, let me remind the Dáil, at all events, that those committees had very different duties to perform to what will be the duties of the advisory committee which it is proposed to set up under this amendment. Some of those who had the privilege of sitting on the committees constituted in connection with technical instruction — I presume the same procedure was followed with regard to agriculture — will remember that very large and important schemes, embodying a large expenditure of money, had to come before, and be approved by, these advisory committees. They had very important powers.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

Public health is also of very great importance.

Mr. GOOD

I agree. But my point is this, that no useful purpose will be served by setting up another committee in addition to the twenty-six committees provided for under the Bill. We have come to a point in this country when the expenses of officials and of government are becoming a tremendous burthen on trade. This expense is hampering industry and is causing unemployment. I will want to see the necessity for adding to that expense before I will vote for an amendment of this character which proposes to set up an additional committee.

Major COOPER

I suppose that Deputy Good, if he wants to be consistent, must vote against the section as well as against the amendment; because, if we were to substitute Deputy Johnson's amendment for the section, we should still have one committee. This section gives the Minister power to establish an unlimited number of committees and to pay their expenses.

Mr. BURKE

It may not be necessary to set up a committee at all.

Major COOPER

But, under the section the Minister takes the power to set up committees. The power is there expressed in the section, and the Minister does not even have to come to the Dáil for the power to do that. The section gives him power to create an unlimited number of committees and to pay their expenses. He may not intend to exercise that power. I dare say he does not. But surely, taking Deputy Good's view, it is utterly illogical to give him that power.

Mr. GOOD

I pointed out in my opening remarks that the difference between the two proposals was this: That under the Bill temporary consultative bodies were to be set up if the Minister desired them for a specific purpose, but for a specific purpose only. Under the amendment it is proposed to set up a permanent Advisory Board which is to meet at least twice a year. In my opinion this Board will have practically no duties at all to perform.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

It is lamentable to hear a gentleman in the position of Deputy Good reiterate what another Deputy stated in a previous Dáil, namely, that he knew as much about public health, and, indeed, a great deal more, than I did, and certainly a great deal more than the young men I was turning out from Trinity College. Deputy Good suggests that the elected county councillors on the twenty-six boards of health are going to give advice on public health matters to the Minister. Now, I never heard any argument brought up in such a foolish manner as that. Deputy Good is willing to say that because he sat on a technical education committee, the members of it were able to give advice on matters relating to technical education. But because the Deputy knows nothing about public health and does not realise that the country is in a most lamentable condition for the want of improvement in public health, he is going to oppose the expenditure of a little money that perhaps would save thousands of lives and provide for the treatment of many forms of disease. It makes me, as I say, blush, sometimes, when I find people in the position of Deputy Good and others, who think that they know a great deal about these matters. The amendment proposed by Deputy Johnson suggests that there should be people representing the ratepayers on these committees. Deputy Johnson also suggests that certain doctors should also be put on because of their special knowledge of public health matters and in order to give advice. I maintain that that is absolutely necessary if the schemes proposed for the country are going to be effective. I am sorry that the Minister for Local Government took occasion to make the remarks he did about the medical profession. I want to say here and now that this Bill has been discussed by committees of the medical profession, representing the entire profession in the country, and I may say that I am voicing the opinion of these men. It is suggested that these men only want an advisory committee set up because they want something done for themselves. Now, I repudiate that entirely, and I think that the medical profession can stand up with a very clear conscience and say that the majority of them are endeavouring to prevent disease, the occurrence of which and the continuance of which would put money in their own pockets. I think that any suggestion that we make, any advice that is given on matters of public health policy by the profession should be gladly adopted by the Minister. The Minister alluded to the fact that Dr. Addison, the first Minister for Health in England, had been replaced by a non-medical man afterwards. Everybody knows that Dr. Addison came to grief through political influences, and not from the fact that he was not able, because he was a doctor, to carry on the Ministry of Health.

Mr. GOOD

He came to grief on the housing question.

Mr. HEWAT

I rise, not necessarily because of the attitude of Deputy Good on this matter, but because I might be permitted to say a few words on a subject which I think Deputy Sir James Craig will say I know nothing about. I think that Deputy Good is right in saying that these committees formed in this way are not an improvement on what is laid down in the Bill. I say that with regret, because I quite agree I ought to support Deputy Johnson in this, because I have been preaching, as far as in me lies, the danger of bureaucratic control in the legislation that comes before us. We see indications of it and it is creeping in rather rapidly, and on this ground if I could support Deputy Johnson I would very willingly do so. But analysing the committee proposed to be formed by this amendment, I cannot really say that a body formed in this way, of a more or less permanent character, should be set up. I do not see there is any step in the Bill except in so far as elected representatives are concerned to change the constitution of the rest of the boards at all. But let us assume that such a committee was accepted by the Dáil and was in operation. It is semi-professional as regards the section that deals with doctors, veterinary surgeons, dentists, and as many more professions as may be added on. If Deputy Sir James Craig advocated and pressed for a board or body or committee composed entirely of professional men it would appeal to me more than this hybrid committee that in essence has the seeds of dissension in itself and is collectively almost certain to clash with the Minister and his Department. Humanly speaking, it appears to me that the formation of this committee on the lines laid down gives an opportunity for a body of men to meet periodically, more than twice a year, putting that down as a minimum, to discuss matters that may come up from different standpoints altogether, and to have vast differences of opinion within themselves, and who, I think, in their decisions would be inclined to send forward resolutions to the Minister of Health that I do not think his Department could accept in the spirit in which these resolutions were passed.

On these grounds, and not with any depreciation of the value of the medical advice which the Minister ought to have at his disposal, I venture to say the amendment is not an improvement on the Bill. As Deputy Good has said, it is going to be an expensive body. It is going to add to the expensive administration at a time when I say that the urgent need of the country is to reduce expenditure so as to get our taxation within reasonable limits which the country can bear. The committee which it is proposed to set up is, in my opinion, a committee that would do nothing like the work that Deputy Johnson expects it to do. I cannot believe that a committee, as constituted by that amendment, would be of the slightest assistance to the Ministry, nor do I think it would be in the interests of the harmonious working of the public health administration of the country.

Mr. JOHNSON

Will Deputy Hewat say whether there is any other form or constitution of such a committee that would meet with his acceptance?

Mr. HEWAT

I would not like to say that off-hand.

Mr. JOHNSON

Is it the principle or the form of the committee he objects to? That is what I desire to know.

Mr. HEWAT

I am afraid I have to say that, in my opinion, the body proposed to be set up would not do what Deputy Johnson expects it to do, and would not be an advisable body to set up. Deputy Johnson asks would I suggest any other body. I believe that the Minister has taken power to set up an advisory board.

Mr. JOHNSON

No.

Mr. HEWAT

I think he has; he has powers to set up a consultative board.

Mr. JOHNSON

On special questions.

Mr. HEWAT

If anything more is required it is not very apparent on the face of it at the present time.

Professor THRIFT

I do not rise to intervene directly upon the general question which has been debated, but the Minister for Local Government used one argument which provoked me too far. I understood him to say that the results of the abolition of the boards called the Commissioners of National Education and the Intermediate Education Board were such that he was unable to accept this proposal. All I wish to remark in that connection is that if that argument was on a par with his other arguments I do not think he has made much of a case. I ask the Minister has he any real idea of what the position of education in the country is? Does he really think that it has improved since these two boards were abolished? I can hardly believe that even the Minister with his mind drawn off from such matters altogether by the consideration of an important Bill like this, is unaware of how unsatisfactory the position of national education is and that secondary education is still awaiting the scheme promised so long. If the Minister has no better argument to adduce than that the abolition of boards such as these which have done good work in the past and whose abolition has been followed by a steady disimprovement in the state of education in the country, compels him to reject this proposal, I think his case is a very bad one.

Mr. BURKE

I did not intend the analogy to be pursued in that direction. I am not aware of the facts stated by Deputy Thrift, and they do not concern the discussion one way or another. I am sorry that the Minister for Education is not here to deal with the question in a proper manner. I may have put what I wanted to say about the medical profession in a way that gave some offence to Deputy Sir James Craig; there is nobody who has a higher conception of the way the medical profession carry out their duties than I have. I have daily evidence of how disinterested they are and how they throw their heart and soul into their professions, not from any mercenary motives. What I meant was that the medical profession, like others, sometimes look at a matter from an idealistic point of view and try to attain the maximum result from their own point of view, and they do not take into consideration all the practical difficulties in my Department. In my Department we have to look at it from the practical point of view, and if any grandiose scheme is put up for dealing with disease we have to take into consideration what that will cost and other matters of that kind, and where we are to get officers to carry it out.

I know if a committee of this kind is set up it would mean continual wrangling with my Department, and eventually probably we would succeed in winning this or that committee over to our view, but it would mean a considerable loss of time debating these points, and it would take up much of the time of my Department in long consultations. The Bill, as it stands, makes ample provision for setting up councils where necessary, or if any sudden emergency should arise, or if any matter such as State medical service has to be dealt with, requiring special consideration by people competent to express expert opinion on it, then I have power to set up such a committee. The idea of keeping a body in cold storage, paying their expenses, a body that will feel called upon to come together and give advice on matters that have not been considered very deeply, is not, I think, advisable, and for that reason I cannot agree to the amendment.

Mr. T. O'CONNELL

I am sorry I had not the advantage of hearing all the discussion on this question, but it seems to me that the point at issue is, whether the Minister takes up this position or not, that he and his Department alone are the people who will know all about what the country needs in the matter of public health. If he does not take up that position, then he will want advice, and who is in the best position to give this advice? I have no doubt whatever that even now, and it has always been the case, it is the people who are actually engaged in public health service who are in the best position to give advice as to public health. Everybody knows it is those who are engaged in these services mentioned in the amendment who take a foremost part in calling the attention of the public to the necessity of what is required to improve the public health. Unless, as I say, the Minister takes up the position that he requires no advice, or that his Department requires no advice, I cannot see for the life of me what the objection is to adopting the amendment and setting up an advisory council. The necessity arises in connection with practically all ministries who have advisory committees. Mention was made, I understand, of the Education Ministry, and I understand the point was made—I gathered so from Deputy Thrift's speech — that it was an advantage to abolish the Intermediate and National Boards. I maintain that there is no analogy, inasmuch as these Boards were not representative boards or were not chosen because of their representative capacity.

I think the Minister might have consulted with the Minister for Education and asked him what his intentions were with regard to the setting up of an Advisory Board of Education, and I think he will find that the Minister, at least, has not the same objection to receiving advice from people qualified to give advice, as the Minister for Local Government appears to have. The Minister talks of these consultative councils and says that he will set them up when necessary when the emergency arises. That, again, is a case of the Department knowing what ought to be done without any advice. Possibly if he had advisory boards the emergency to set up such boards would not arise. Deputy Good spoke of the expense compared with the object which is sought to be achieved, and which would undoubtedly be achieved. The expense would be simply nothing worth speaking about. What is it? The calling of something like twenty or twenty-one members together twice a year and paying their expenses. That is the expense about which Deputy Good complains, where such a vital necessity as public health is concerned. The very fact of these councils being established and meeting would create an interest in public health matters, and I cannot see what possible objection the Minister could have in refusing to set up this advisory body in connection with his Ministry.

Mr. MORRISSEY

I think it is something of a disgrace that some Deputies should treat such an important question as this in the flippant manner in which they have treated it. Of course we can quite understand, from the speeches made by Deputy Good and Deputy Hewat, that the real objection to the amendment is that it is going to cost so much. It does not matter, apparently, to them what good may be effected by the amendment with regard to the health of the country. The whole question is what it is going to cost, and, as Deputy O'Connell has pointed out, the cost would be comparatively little. The Minister takes up the attitude that he does not want anybody to advise him, that he and his officials know all about the public health requirements in the country. The argument has been put forward by Deputy Good that the Minister has twenty-six boards of health.

I would like to ask Deputy Good what the average member of a board of health knows about public health, or would Deputy Good say that the members of a board of health would be able to deal with questions of public health with such knowledge and authority as the people who are suggested in the amendment. It is said by Deputy Hewat that the reason he is going to vote against the amendment is because the people who are mentioned in it to form the advisory council would not be able to achieve the object which Deputy Johnson has in mind in his amendment. If that body will not achieve what Deputy Johnson has in mind, surely twenty-six county boards of health, or any one of them, will not achieve it. From what I know of the personnel of some county boards of health, I am perfectly sure they would not be able to give the Minister any assistance. They may be able to give him assistance to a certain extent, as they might know as much about public health as the Minister or his officials know. I dare say they do. I believe that there is a real necessity for putting on advisory councils, persons like doctors and nurses, persons who know public health questions from the proper point of view. I do not profess to know very much about them any more than the ordinary man, but perhaps I know as much about them as the average member of a county board of health or Deputy Good or Deputy Hewat.

Mr. WILSON

I want to remove what I consider a misunderstanding. Deputy Good referred to 26 county boards of health, but there are 26 medical officers of health to be set up under this Bill, each of whom is supposed to be an authority on public health matters, and if 26 medical officers of health are not sufficient to guide the Minister in whatever measures he requires for the health of this country, then I say we are a very sickly population indeed.

The point made by Deputy Hewat is a very good one. You are going to have men representing the ratepayers on the one hand, and the professional element on the other. One says we want this, and the other says we have no money, and the result will be that meetings will become debating societies, and no results will be achieved. You will have the expense in and out of season of this body, who will be called together every six months, or at more frequent intervals, debating subjects on which the Minister is well informed by his 26 medical officers of health. It would be a superabundant board, and I think it would be foolish at present for us to agree to it.

Dr. MYLES KEOGH

Deputy Wilson has reminded the Dáil that the 26 boards of health will have 26 medical officers. I was privileged to be a member of a public health committee for 10 years. A medical officer instructed the committee on matters in connection with tuberculosis, and informed them that the tubercular bacilli did not travel through the blood vessels of the body. An able layman said that they did travel through the blood vessels, which, of course, they did not. That shows how a layman can set himself up as an authority on a medical matter over the medical officer.

Mr. WILSON

That was under the old regime.

Mr. JOHNSON

Deputy Wilson submits that there are 26 medical officers of health, and that these officers of health will form the advisory body, which is to advise the Minister in relation to public health policy. Will the Minister say that that is a fact?

Mr. BURKE

To an extent, yes.

Mr. JOHNSON

There is nothing provided in the Bill that these medical officers of health shall meet together to discuss maters of public health affecting the country as a whole, and that they shall form an advisory council to suggest a health policy to the Ministry. There is no suggestion of that kind in the Bill, and there is no intention in the Bill that that shall be so. Would Deputy Wilson say to the Minister for Lands and Agriculture that the county instructors are quite efficient to advise them in regard to the milk supply, cow-testing associations, bulls, breeding schemes, and any of those other schemes brought forward? County instructors are available, but it has never been suggested that they should form an advisory committee to the Minister, although the Deputies on the Farmers' Benches had the opportunity to make this point in the previous debates on agricultural questions. But, of course, the health of the people is a small matter to the farmers. I quite agree that if they were thinking consistently, and according to any political principle, they would support this proposition, as they supported the other proposition as to advisory councils to the Minister. I wonder if it is not true to say, in fact I assert it without any hesitation, that the Minister is intending in matters relating to the health of the people, not only matters of immediate administration but public health policy, having an eye on the future, to rely on the advice he receives from his departmental officers.

In the Estimates for this year I find a total of ten medical inspectors. So far as they are denoted as being medical inspectors, they have a variety of duties. Will the Minister tell us how many of these inspectors have a Diploma of Public Health, and will the Minister say that it is sufficient to rely upon the advice of two or three of these medical inspectors who may be competent, to carry with him in any public health scheme the medical profession and the public? I hope the Deputies will bear in mind that this is a very important part of the proposal — to carry the public and the medical profession with you in any proposal of public health policy. I say that it is not enough for the Minister to rely solely upon the hidden officers of his department, some of whom may be competent and qualified, but none of whom is in daily practice, and in regular touch with the public and public necessities, and are only able to judge by reports that come in writing. The case for expert advice, and for continued consultation with people specially interested has been made and accepted in nearly every country in the world. The Minister for Agriculture, like a wise man, acknowledged the value of consulting the people concerned who have special knowledge, and invited conferences and continued support for any schemes that are being put forward. But the Minister for Local Government is above these petty things. The experiences of other countries do not matter to him. He is going to concentrate all power in his Department, and to keep down costs to satisfy Deputy Hewat and Deputy Good. He is going to say: "If there is any knowledge outside my Department in matters relating to public health, then it is no knowledge and is not worth consideration."

The Minister thinks only of calling together expert committees when emergencies arise. I suggest that it would be much more to the point, and certainly infinitely more economical, if the Minister would have the advice of people interested in matters of public health before the emergency arises, so as to prevent the occasion for calling the consultative committee together when an emergency arises. Deputy Hewat laid stress upon the constitution of the proposed council. I am not laying stress upon it. If that is the only objection it is easy to arrive at an accommodation. But no; continued reading of reports from public health committees will be an efficient substitute for the proposed council. Deputy Good suggests that, having twenty-six boards of health, there is no necessity for any advice from any expert authority, but I think that Deputy Good does not really believe anything of the kind. He knows that the boards of public health are not, and cannot be an efficient substitute for any expert advisory body.

Mr. GOOD

I am satisfied with the powers the Minister has in the clause under discussion.

Mr. JOHNSON

I quite understand that Deputy Good is satisfied about those powers and hopes they will never be exercised, because they will cost money. On the other hand, I believe that it is desirable to look ahead in matters relating to public health policy, and to get together frequently people appointed by the Minister from associations, bodies and boards, who are known to be keenly interested in matters of public health and to endeavour to arrive at common agreement if possible. In any case, even by their discussion of specific questions, you will educate the public. If, then, the Minister approves of their recommendations, when he brings forward any proposal to the Dáil or issues any of the innumerable Orders he is empowered to issue, the fact that he has behind the Order which he may issue, the authority of a council of this kind, will make the co-operation of the public more likely and the assistance of the medical profession much more certain.

The Minister spoke about taking the advice of the Dáil. In every Bill he and his predecessors have put forward in relation to public health affairs and local administration, they have provided for legislation by Orders in Council and by Orders of the Minister. But henceforth we are going to have a change. We are going to have no more legislation by Order. We are going to have the advice of the Dáil before any such Order is issued. I think I see him doing it. I ask the Dáil to support the principle of this amendment. It may be subject to modification if the constitution laid down is not generally acceptable, but I would ask the Dáil to support the principle of having a public health council to assist the Minister in the administration of public health affairs. The motion would be to delete paragraphs 1 and 3 of Section 17, and to substitute paragraphs 1 to 10 in the amendment on the paper.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The effect of the amendment would be the same as the amendment on the Paper, because Sub-section (11) of the proposed new sub-section is identical with Sub-section (2) of Section 17 as in the Bill.

Amendment put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 27; Níl, 30.

Tá

• Pádraig Baxter.
• John J. Cole.
• Bryan R. Cooper.
• Sir James Craig.
• Séamus Eabhróid.
• David Hall.
• Séamus Mac Cosgair.
• Maolmhuire Mac Eochadha.
• Tomás Mac Eoin.
• Risteárd Mac Fheorais.
• Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha.
• Patrick McKenna.
• Tomás de Nógla.
• Ailfrid O Broin.
• Tomás O Conaill.
• Aodh O Cúlacháin.
• Liam O Daimhín.
• Tadhg O Donnabháin.
• Eamon O Dubhghaill.
• Seán O Duinnín.
• Mícheál O hIfearnáin.
• Seán O Laidhin.
• Domhnall O Muirgheasa.
• Tadhg O Murchadha.
• Pádraig O hOgáin (An Clár).
• Pádraig O hOgáin (Luimneach).
• Liam Thrift.

Níl

• Earnán de Blaghd.
• Séamus Breathnach.
• Seoirse de Bhulbh.
• Séamus de Búrca.
• Máighréad Ní Choileáin Bean
• Uí Dhrisceóil.
• Patrick J. Egan.
• Desmond Fitzgerald.
• John Good.
• William Hewat.
• Seosamh Mac 'a Bhrighde.
• Risteárd Mac Liam.
• Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
• Liam Mac Sioghaird.
• James Sproule Myles.
• John T. Nolan.
• Peadar O hAodha.
• Criostóir O Broin.
• Seán O Bruadair.
• Risteárd O Conaill.
• Conchubhar O Conghaile.
• Séamus O Cruadhlaoich.
• Séamus O Dóláin.
• Peadar O Dubhghaill.
• Eamon O Dúgáin.
• Donchadh O Guaire.
• Séamus O Leadáin.
• Fionán O Loingsigh.
• Pádraic O Máille.
• Séamus O Murchadha.
• Patrick W. Shaw.

Amendment declared lost.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

I have amendments down which deal with the same matter, and I do not think there would be any useful purpose served in going over again any of the arguments I used or in inducing Deputy Johnson to go over any of his arguments. If I thought it would be of any educational value to the Government or to my friend, Deputies Hewat and Wilson, I would continue to argue the matter; but as I think there is no prospect I would ask the House to allow me to withdraw my amendments.

Amendments 15, 16 and 17, by leave, withdrawn.