Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 11 Dec 1924

Vol. 9 No. 25

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES. - MOTION BY MINISTER FOR FINANCE.

Mr. BLYTHE

I beg to move:—

Go dtugaidh an Dáil cead chun na meastacháin bhreise so a leanas i gcóir seirbhís na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárth, 1925, do thabhairt isteach, eadhon:—Vótálacha a 47 (Coimisiún Talmhan), 52 (Roinn Tionnscail agus Tráchtála), 56 (ArmPhinsin).

That leave be given by the Dáil to introduce the following supplementary estimates for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, viz.:—Votes Nos. 47 (Land Commission), 52 (Department of Industry and Commerce), 56 (Army Pensions).

The reason for introducing these Votes is that, first, in regard to Vote 47, a certain amount has to be provided by way of a grant to meet the charges falling upon the Land Commission owing to the delay in the payment of certain sums in lieu of rent. The Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce is necessary because of the intended passing of the Unemployment Insurance Bill. We actually will have to take the Vote in anticipation of the Bill being passed in order to make the payments which the Bill provides. Vote No. 56 is principally to enable the pensions, which have been awarded under the Service Pensions Act, to be paid.

Mr. JOHNSON

When is it intended to take those Votes and have the discussion that has been promised on the Land Commission Vote?

Mr. BLYTHE

I am afraid that as the Votes have not yet been circulated, it will only be possible to take them to-morrow.

Mr. WHITE

I thought it was understood that we would get a chance of criticising some matters connected with the Land Commission and that Deputy Lyons would have an opportunity of bringing forward his motion in connection with the administration of the Land Act?

Mr. BLYTHE

I do not think the Dáil would be willing to discuss the estimates when those estimates have not yet been circulated.

Mr. WHITE

There was some chessboard manoeuvring yesterday in connection with Deputy Lyons' motion. It would appear that the same manoeuvring is to be repeated this afternoon, too.

Mr. BLYTHE

You will get any opportunity you may desire to discuss the matter to-morrow. It was hoped that the estimates would be printed and circulated, but as they have not been, I do not think they can be taken now.

Mr. WHITE

To-morrow will be what we may call a short day as far as business is concerned, and yet there will be a lot of very important business to be considered.

Mr. BLYTHE

Of course it would be quite possible for the Dáil to sit late to-morrow. Perhaps there would be no objection to that course. We were intending to rise to-morrow until January, with the exception of one day next week, when we would reassemble to consider any business that would come from the Seanad.

Major COOPER

Are we to understand it is a firm offer that there will be two hours provided for private business to-morrow, and that there will be no motion for Government time?

Mr. BLYTHE

There was no offer either firm or infirm.

Major COOPER

Are we to understand that the Government is to move to take private Members' time to-morrow, in view of the fact that Deputy Lyons has been deprived of the opportunity of bringing forward his motion to-day?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I would like to be in a position to answer the Deputy definitely on that point; but really it is not possible until we see what progress is made with the business to-day, and, therefore, what to-morrow's agenda is likely to be. We have no desire to encroach needlessly or lightly on private Members' time. It is simply a question of a sense of proportion, and if the nature of public business to-morrow requires it, it will be done. Equally I am prepared to meet Deputies who desire to avail of the discussion on the Land Commission Estimate or on any other matter by making to-morrow a particularly long day, and sit on as late as they like to-morrow evening.

Major COOPER

Is the Minister moving to sit late to-night? If there was a pressure of Government business that would be the preferable course.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

As I told the Ceann Comhairle already, it is not easy to judge of that now. I probably will be able to give some indication of that about five o'clock or five-thirty o'clock.

Mr. DAVIN

Can the Vice-President put forward any good reason as to why we should not meet more than one day next week, and so give the Deputies a reasonable opportunity of discussing the business before we adjourn?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

We can discuss that to-morrow on the adjournment. If the Deputies think it will be necessary to sit two or three days next week then we will sit two or three days next week.

Mr. JOHNSON

Does not the Minister realise when he is putting the motion down to-day that it will not be concluded at this side of Christmas; and that it is this method of presentation of the business programme that causes the difficulty? The Minister surely will admit that the delay in respect to the division of land is of great importance and that it is creating a considerable amount of anxiety in the country, and that it is a much more important matter than some of the matters that have been brought forward. To raise the question as to what will be the programme next week, if there is going to be any programme, on the adjournment to-morrow night, surely is not paying due regard to the requirements of public business.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Could we have an assurance from Deputies that no frivolous or vexatious division will be called for the purpose of wasting time in the limited period at our disposal?

Mr. JOHNSON

So far as I am concerned the Minister may have that assurance immediately.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

But carry it out though.

Mr. JOHNSON

Who is to be the judge of frivolousness?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The Dáil—three Deputies.

Mr. LYONS

I am quite satisfied as long as we can get an opportunity of discussing the motion, standing in my name, to-morrow, that the Estimates of the Land Commission should be left over until then. It meets my point much better to have a discussion on this motion and not the Estimates. It was the intention of the Minister for Lands and Agriculture to have the Estimates first in order that he would bombard beforehand any statement made in my motion. Now that he has got that I am sure he is satisfied that we will agree to avail of the opportunity to-morrow.

Mr. WHITE

Surely the Minister cannot be serious when he would make an insinuation of frivolousness against any member of the Farmers' Party who would take exception to the Land Commission Vote? Is a Deputy not within his rights in doing so? I have no objection to the hours being extended to the afternoon provided we get a fling at the Land Commission.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE (Mr. Hogan)

I have come to the conclusion that no possible subterfuge of mine will prevent this taking place, and consequently I hand in my gun.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

It is by no means certain that when the Estimates are introduced members will be afforded any opportunity on the Land Commission Estimates for discussing the matter dealt with in Deputy Lyons' motion. It may be an estimate that would preclude altogether the question of delay in carrying out the provisions of the Land Act. I have not yet seen the estimate, and I do not know, but it may be that the question of Deputy Lyons' motion could not be raised on the estimate.

Mr. LYONS

I hold that whatever may be raised on the estimates will have nothing at all to do with the motion. If they discuss the estimates for a week I would be in order in moving my motion.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I agree.

Mr. LYONS

I do not intend to say anything on the estimates that I would not say on the motion.

Mr. BAXTER

I think the motion must be separated from the vote. Otherwise it would be absolutely unfair to the House. Probably there will be general agreement as regards the passing of this vote, but will there be general agreement with the Minister's policy in dealing with this part of the Land Act? That is quite another matter. It must be treated in a different way. I think the Minister should welcome a discussion on this matter. He ought to be grateful to Deputy Lyons or any other Deputy who would bring forward a motion, which would give him an opportunity of justifying his policy, if he can justify it. If he does not accept the motion in that light, the feeling generally will be that the Minister's policy cannot be justified by himself, and that he is making an effort to avoid discussion on the matter. I am not suggesting that, but I think the Minister ought to welcome the motion, and say that he is prepared to give an opportunity for discussion of it, as it is a matter of great importance to the people of the country.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE (Mr. Hogan)

I know that the Deputy does not suggest for a moment that I wish to avoid discussion. I have taken the House into my confidence, and I realise that no possible subterfuges of mine can avoid discussion on this motion. I may go further and point out that the Vice-President has intimated that the House may sit late to-morrow night to discuss this motion. I agree that, while the estimate may go through, it will be necessary to discuss this motion. The Vice-President has intimated that, if Deputies so desire, they can discuss this matter for three, four, or five hours to-morrow evening.

Mr. WHITE

Both yourself, A Chinn Comhairle, and the Minister seem to have overlooked that I have a motion on the paper for to-morrow for the appointment of a Committee, consisting of five Deputies, to be nominated by the Sessional Committee of Selection, to enquire into the present method of collection of compounded-arrears payment in lieu of rent. We were told from the Government Benches yesterday evening that, in order to save time, a discussion could be started in connection with that motion of mine, and could be effectively answered by the Minister. That would save time to-morrow. This afternoon another complexion has been put on the matter. It is insinuated that these motions are all frivolous matters.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

No. That had special reference to a Deputy who immediately answered me.

Mr. WHITE

Is it definitely understood that there will be an extended sitting to-morrow, with a view to dealing with this motion of Deputy Lyons' and this motion of mine?

Mr. LYONS

I do not think that it is really fair for the Government to take the time of private members. We are told that four or five hours can be given to this matter to-morrow, but I do not think it is fair to ask Deputies to remain over longer than they are accustomed to do on Fridays. And the Government ask them to remain over because they are taking the private Members' time. Private Members should have the time that is allowed, according to Standing Orders. Instead of that, we are told that this motion can come on to-morrow if the Dáil agree to sit later than 4 o'clock. That is not right.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

The Deputy is talking about rights under Standing Orders. The Standing Orders specifically provide that the Government may, on any day that private business may be taken, move without notice to take the entire time of the Dáil for public business. That is a right under Standing Orders, and it is apparently a right which was intended by those who drafted Standing Orders and those who approved them, to be an over-riding right to the private member's right to have his business discussed. To-morrow the Deputy will get an opportunity of moving his motion if we have to sit all night and the Minister for Agriculture will undertake to divide no lands in the meantime.

Mr. LYONS

Will the Minister sit all night to-night and deal with the important matters that he says should be dealt with?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

To-morrow is Friday night.

Mr. LYONS

Why sit all night in private members' time?

Mr. DAVIN

If the Vice-President and his Ministers are anxious to assist Deputies in disposing of the business that must be disposed of before we adjourn, then I think Deputy Johnson's suggestion is the only practicable one—that the Bills on the Order Paper for to-day and to-morrow that cannot be passed into law before the adjournment, should be taken off the Order Paper and that we should get on with the business that must be done before we adjourn.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE (Mr. Hogan)

What are those Bills?

Mr. DAVIN

The Police Forces (Amalgamation) Bill is down for Second Reading to-morrow. It may take a lot of time and it cannot be passed before the adjournment.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Is this motion for leave to introduce the Estimates agreed to?

DEPUTIES

Agreed.

Mr. WHITE

Provided we get ample opportunity for discussing Deputy Lyons's motion and mine with regard to the Land Commission to-morrow afternoon.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

You cannot pass a motion provisionally. You have either to pass it or not.

Motion put and agreed to.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

When is it intended to take these Estimates?

Mr. BLYTHE

To-morrow as first business.

Mr. WHITE

Then we shall get two chances.

Ordered that Estimates be considered on Friday, 12th December.