Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 5 Mar 1925

Vol. 10 No. 8

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE No. 5.—DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE.

Mr. BLYTHE

I beg to move:—

Go ndeontar Suim Bhreise ná raghaidh thar Sé Mhíle Dhá Chéad agus Cheithre Púint Sheascad chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh Márta, 1925, mar gheall ar Thuarastail agus Costaísí Oifig an Aire Airgid, maraon le hOifig an Phágh-Mháistir Ghenerálta.

That a Supplementary Sum not ex ceeding Six Thousand Two Hundred and Sixty-four Pounds be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1925, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Finance, including the Paymaster-General's Office.

As will be seen by the Estimate, this additional sum is all practically accounted for under sub-head A. This is a necessary estimate. We are making an appointment of a Parliamentary Secretary. I have indicated to the Dáil on many occasions that the Department of Finance is a Department in which a Parliamentary Secretary is urgently required. Many matters require what you might call Ministerial consideration, matters that cannot be determined or proceeded with by civil servants and matters which it is impossible for the Minister for Finance to find time to deal with, particularly in what may be called the outlying or sub-departments of the Ministry of Finance—the Board of Works and the Stationery Office, for instance. I myself, since I have been Minister for Finance, find it impossible to do more than really decide some urgent matters that would be put up to me from time to time, but I found it impossible to give the consideration that should be given by somebody other than an official—somebody who would have a public point of view, and bring to bear upon this matter the particular sort of knowledge and the particular sort of interest that a representative of the people and a member of the Dáil would give.

There has been an appointment of a Government stockbroker. That appointment was made because we failed to reach agreements with the Stock Exchange in regard to an arrangement for a reduced commission on Government transactions. Our idea had been that the Government stockbroker should do Government business at half the usual commission. That arrangement could only be come to if the Stock Exchange would make a rule allowing it to be done. They would not make such a rule but they allowed an arrangement whereby a salary might be paid to the individual in lieu of commission. By fixing a salary instead of paying commission on transactions we estimate that there will be a substantial saving. An Assistant Secretary was appointed to that Department, and this officer takes the place of the British civil servant who was on loan. This particular office was not provided for in the Estimate.

There was at that time, when the original Estimates were framed, three British civil servants on loan in the Department. They have gone, and their places have been taken by other officers of the Ministry of Finance or by officials brought in. There was an officer brought in to do one section of the work. The most substantial item of the sub-head is the Temporary Clerical Staff, that is, the Temporary Staff it was found necessary to employ in addition to what was provided for in the Estimates in order to deal with the work of Compensation. As Deputies are aware from the number of questions asked, we have an enormous amount of work in the Compensation Section, and it was found that we had not made sufficient provision in the Estimates to enable the work to be done as expeditiously as we would like. The allowances for temporary staff on loan from other Departments are partly due to that and to the fact that the British civil servants whom we had on loan were continued for a few months longer here than we had originally anticipated. I think the last of them left at the end of October. The other items on the Estimate are small. Item (d) is due to under-estimation. The sum set down was arrived at after consultation with the Post Office, but it proved to be insufficient. In sub-head (f) the amount required for telephones and telegrams is very small.

Mr. JOHNSON

Will the Minister explain more clearly whether the allowance to officers on loan to other Departments includes the cost to the Saorstát of the loan of the officers from the British Treasury?

Mr. BLYTHE

It does, but in the case of some other officers there are allowances for instance where an officer is brought in to do a scale of work which would mean promotion. Pending his transfer he will be given an allowance, but his substantive salary will remain on the Vote of his original Department. Some of those Staff Clerks set down under (a) are officers who were in a Department and their transfer was effected during the year in respect of the beginning of it. It would be probably better to have allowed them to remain at their salary on the original Vote.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

With regard to the assistant secretary, there was in the original Vote a certain sum of money given to that person who filled that duty before. He was on loan from the British Civil Service and returned last July, and now somebody else has been appointed to that place approximately at the same salary. Would not the original Vote carry on that office irrespective of that particular officer? Why is it necessary for this other item to be included here for the same position?

Mr. BLYTHE

This is an entirely different post. The officer carrying on that duty was being paid £1,500 or so and there was no provision for the assistant secretary at this particular salary.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

Will the salary given to that other person come under the head of surrender?

Mr. BLYTHE

There are anticipated savings. It is not definitely earmarked. It is part of a Vote for allowances to officers on loan. I think there would be nothing to surrender in that particular matter.

Mr. JOHNSON

I would like to be clear as to what the duties of the Parliamentary Secretary are. From the explanation given by the Minister the term Parliamentary Secretary does not seem to apply very aptly. I have no doubt whatever of the necessity for such an officer, but I would imagine that under that term at least he would be an officer who would relieve the Minister of certain obligations regarding his duties in Parliament. Otherwise we might imagine that another official without such a title would be the person to be appointed. I think the fact that an officer is called Parliamentary Secretary should suggest a more definite relationship with the Parliament than we have yet experienced. I think it well to learn the mind of the Minister as to the particular relationship with the Dáil itself of the member of the Dáil appointed to this office. The title suggests some relationship with the Parliament and we have yet to learn what is that relationship.

Mr. BLYTHE

The relationship with the Parliament is that he is a member of the Parliament. I do not know that it is the best title, but it was put into the Ministers and Secretaries Act. I think when that Act was going through that I stated that in dealing with certain work in my Department it was necessary that assistance should be given in this particular way. What has been arranged at present is that while as Minister, I must in the ultimate result take responsibility for everything that is done, I do not deal with the ordinary work of the Board of Works or Stationery Office as I did in the past, or, rather, failed to do in the past. The ordinary work that requires Ministerial sanction or direction is submitted to the Parliamentary Secretary. Matters only come to me if I ask for them, or if the Parliamentary Secretary feels that they ought to come to me. I am satisfied that he is as capable of giving as good a decision and direction as I can give, and I do not ask for matters to be submitted to me unless he cares. It means that the Board of Works, which continued since the change of Government, much as it did before, is now brought into relationship with the Government. It is work of an entirely different nature from the work which is the main work of the Minister for Finance, which is Treasury and Revenue work. I found it impossible really to give any detailed attention to any matter or to get any grasp of the work. I was before this arrangement came, very much in the position the Chief Secretary was in, and I only signed papers as they were submitted to me. Under this system there will be direct touch. It might be a desirable thing if there were questions dealing with the Board of Works that they should be answered here by the Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

It is pleasant to hear Deputy Johnson putting up again exactly the original criticism raised by him and by others when the Ministers and Secretaries Bill was before the Dáil. The same point that he has now made was made then, but, I think, it has been a little previous, if I may so suggest. At the time it was suggested that the title "Parliamentary Secretary" was not accurate, as the relationship of the particular person to fill this particular post was not one directly in connection with the Dáil, but directly in connection with the Minister himself. Therefore, if a title had to be chosen, the title would have been, not "Parliamentary Secretary," but "Assistant Minister." Why, I think, Deputy Johnson was perhaps a little premature in the matter is, that when criticisms are made on any Bill in the Dáil, generally they are ultimately adopted by the Ministry and put into practice. That has never yet occurred under two years, so that Deputy Johnson is just a year short. Probably, in a few years time, it will be decided to call this person whose need has been demonstrated by the Minister for Finance by the title that would accurately define him and accurately describe his work, and that is Assistant Minister for Finance.

Motion put and declared carried