There is one amendment to the Short Title in Section 11.
TREASONABLE AND SEDITIOUS OFFENCES BILL, 1925—FIFTH STAGE.
I move:—
"To delete the words ‘and seditious' from the short title."
They have already been deleted from the long title.
Amendment put and agreed to.
Question proposed—"That the Bill, as amended, do now pass."
I will not delay the House more than a very few minutes, but I think it is very desirable to allow those of the newly-elected Deputies who were not in a position to discuss this matter to have an opportunity to declare themselves on it. With all the amendments I do not think it is a Bill that should receive the final approval of the Dáil, and therefore I intend to call for a division.
I hardly expected that I should be suddenly called on to address the House, or that I should have to make a speech on a matter like this at such short notice. I have been sitting here for the last fortnight listening to debates on this subject particularly, and on a variety of other subjects, and hearing the implication put forward pretty constantly from various parts of the House that the old and the new Deputies on these benches were to a certain extent men who were dying to get at the throats of the Government if whatever mysterious power that is exercised over them could only be lifted by some magic spell. I take the first opportunity I get to dispel, for my own part at any rate, that peculiar notion, certainly as regards this Bill. I have been of the opinion for a long time that we were badly in need of a measure like this, and the only regret I have is that the Bill was not introduced and put into operation a good deal sooner. In addition to that, beside my own private opinion, I am also fortified by a very clear consciousness of the opinion of my constituents.
I was standing beside the Minister for Justice in two of the largest towns in my own constituency when he referred to his action in bringing this measure before the Dáil, and I can certainly say, quite conscientiously and without being compelled by any Government Whip, that I heard no statement from anybody so vociferously cheered or received with such acclamation as the Minister's statement was on these two occasions. I would like to add also that these were occasions of the two biggest public meetings that have been held in that constituency for a big number of years. I am in agreement with the Minister in regard to that matter.
I think there may have been a small number of things in which the Bill needed amendment when it was introduced. I certainly thought it was a bad thing to set up offences which the State could not in practice punish; that it was easy to pass penal legislation which could be set at naught. That was the only criticism I had to bring against the Bill, that it would be very easy to rise up against certain provisions in the Bill and to render them difficult to carry into practice. If it were possible to carry them into practice I should have supported them most strongly. I think the Minister was right when he said on the occasion of the last debate on the Bill that it leaves the Dáil a somewhat better Bill than when it came in, and that the improvements made in it were practically altogether due to the Minister himself.
There is one other matter about which I have often wished to say something with regard to this Bill. Deputy Johnson seems to differ from the Minister, not only in regard to the temporary provisions of a Bill like this, but there seems to be a fundmental difference in their points of view. Deputy Johnson seems to think that the functions of the State in this or any other country should be to act as a kind of schoolmaster, as a good parent to the citizens, who ought to be regarded to a certain extent as the children of the State. I do not know how far that view is accepted by the rest of the Dáil, but I must say that I cannot agree that it is a view that I share to any extent. This is a country which has a very democratic Government, and in which the State is very much responsible to the wishes of the people. The State does not make the citizens; the citizens make the State. Deputy Johnson, I think, is inclined, in regard to this and a great many other measures, to put the cart before the horse.
The Deputy has read very little of what Deputy Johnson has ever said.
I have heard Deputy Johnson speaking at great length on this measure, and I have heard him putting forward sentiments of that kind. I have heard him say that this Bill will not make good citizens. I do not think it is the function of or that it is possible for any Bill to make good citizens. It is the function of citizens to be good, and if they are not good the State can prevent them from being bad to the extent of doing harm to themselves or other people. But I do not think that the State can be expected to undertake the work of uplifting the moral tone of the citizens. I do not want to delay the time of the Dáil by expatiating any further on this subject. For myself I must say that I am in hearty agreement with the purport and provisions of this Bill, and that I am as confident as any Deputy can be that I have the full support of my constituents in saying that.
Question put—"That the Bill do now pass."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 30; Níl, 13.
Tá
- Earnán de Blaghd.
- Séamus Breathnach.
- Seoirse de Bhulbh.
- Michael Egan.
- Patrick J. Egan.
- John Hennigan.
- Seosamh Mac 'a Bhrighde.
- Liam Mac Cosgair.
- Maolmhuire Mac Eochadha.
- Pádraig Mac Fadáin.
- Patrick McGilligan.
- Eoin Mac Néill.
- Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
- Liam Mac Sioghaird.
- Pádraig Mag Ualghairg.
- Martin M. Nally.
- Michael K. Noonan.
- Peadar O hAodha.
- Mícheál O hAonghusa.
- Seán O Bruadair.
- Eoghan O Dochartaigh.
- Séamus O Dóláin.
- Eamon O Dúgáin.
- Andriú O Láimhín.
- Séamus O Leadáin.
- Séamus O Murchadha.
- Pádraig O hOgáin (Gaillimh).
- Máirtín O Rodaigh.
- Mícheál O Tighearnaigh.
- Caoimhghín O hUigín.
Níl
- Pádraig Baxter.
- Seán Buitléir.
- Tomás Mac Eoin.
- Risteárd Mac Fheorais.
- Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha.
- Tomás de Nógla.
- Tomás O Conaill.
- Aodh O Cúlacháin.
- Eamon O Dubhghaill.
- Seán O Laidhin.
- Pádraic O Máille.
- Tadhg O Murchadha.
- Pádraig O hOgáin (An Clár).
Tellers:—Tá: Séamus O Dóláin agus Mícheál O Tighearnaigh. Níl: Tomás de Nógla agus Pádraig Baxter.
Motion declared carried.