Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 1 May 1925

Vol. 11 No. 7

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE No. 30—GÁRDA SÍOCHÁNA.

Mr. BLYTHE

I beg to move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £973,976 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1926, chun íoctha Tuarastail agus Costaisí an Ghárda Síochána (Acht an Ghárda Síochána, 1924, agus Acht Có-nasctha na bhFórsaí Póilíneacht, 1925.)

That a sum not exceeding £973,976 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1926, to defray the Salaries and Expenses of the Gárda Síochána (The Gárda Síochána Act, 1924, and the Police Forces Amalgamation Act, 1925).

MINISTER for JUSTICE (Mr. O'Higgins)

The net total estimate for the Gárda Síochána—that is, for the amalgamated force—for the current financial year is £1,463,976. In the last financial year the total of the estimates for the D.M.P. and the Gárda Síochána was £1,511,882. That figure, however, included sums amounting to £138,625 in respect of items which this year have been transferred to other Votes. The salaries of the staff in the Metropolitan District Court have been transferred to the District Court Vote, and D.M.P. pensions are transferred to the Superannuation Vote. The comparable figure, therefore, in 1924-5 was £1,373,257, and this year's estimate shows an increase on that of £90,719. The increase is more than accounted for by the increases in sub-heads A and B in the Estimates—pay and allowances. That increase is due to the fact that last year provision was not required to be made for full strength, as distribution was incomplete, and we did not reach anything approaching the maximum figure. The scheme of distribution for the Gárda Síochána provides for the establishment of 850 stations outside Dublin—that is, outside the area of the Dublin Metro- politan Division—and in addition to that 850 stations, 20 stations for the units of the detective branch. On the 1st April, 1924, only 738 stations had been occupied; 84 additional stations have since been occupied, making a total of 822, and it is hoped that distribution will be completed before next winter.

We made provision last year for a total of 950 sergeants outside Dublin. This year 200 additional sergeants are included. This is due to the increased number of stations and the necessity for allocating a number of sergeants for clerical duty in the offices of the chief superintendents and superintendents. Two hundred and twenty additional Guards outside Dublin are being provided for.

Provision is being made for 30 inspectors outside Dublin, who will be allocated as follows:—One to each divisional headquarters, accounting for twenty; three to Cork; one to each of Limerick, Waterford, Dundalk, Galway, and two to the Depôt. The necessity for this superintending rank has become very acute, as no provision existed heretofore for substitutes for chief superintendents or superintendents absent on ordinary or sick leave from their divisions or districts, or on duty dealing with cases before the Circuit or High Courts.

For the Dublin Metropolitan area only 1,024 Guards are being provided, as against 1,095 last year. This need not be taken to mean that any reduction in police strength is being made in Dublin. The explanation is that last year a large number of men were about to retire in consequence of the change of Government, and it was necessary to make provision for a considerable number of recruits who would be trained and ready to replace the retiring members when the latter were being released. In fact, the provision made this year for the Metropolitan division will enable a strength to be kept up in excess of the strength at any period during the past ten years. The growth of motor traffic, Deputies will realise, has necessitated the allocation of a gradually increasing number of police for traffic duty. The provision made last year in the Dublin Metropolitan Police force for an assistant Commissioner disappears now, and the former Commissioner of the D.M.P. appears as Deputy Commissioner of the amalgamated force.

The following shows the strength of the various ranks estimated for as compared with the maximum strength authorised by the Police Forces (Amalgamation) Act:—Chief superintendents, 25 provided for in the current year's Estimate; maximum authorised strength, 29; superintendents, 133 provided for; maximum authorised, 157; inspectors, 55 provided for; maximum authorised, 60; station sergeants, 44 provided for; the maximum authorised has been reached; sergeants, 1,298 provided for; maximum authorised, 1,350; guards, 5,644 provided for; maximum authorised, 6,000. The total of the actual number provided for is 7,199, and the authorised maximum 7,640.

Now I come to the sub-heads of the Vote. Sub-head C accounts for £6,075. There is a reduction here of £14,000 on the Estimate for last year. The formation of additional stations has gradually reduced the necessity for absence from stations of more than eight hours, and the estimate for 1924-5 was somewhat greater than turned out to be necessary in fact.

Travelling expenses are dealt with under sub-head D.—£12,418. This sub-head shows a decrease of £8,000 on last year's figure. Transfers will not necessarily be so frequent this year, and as the bulk of the stations have already been formed, drafts from the Depôt will not be so numerous in future.

Sub-head E—Clothing and Equipment, comes to £22,537. The decrease here of over £9,000 is due to the fact that the issue of clothing and equipment will not be as heavy this year as last year. Of the sum estimated for, about £13,000 is required for the issue of materials for frocks and trousers for the sergeants and guards outside Dublin, and 15/- per suit for having the garments made up. About £4,000 will be required for great coats, waterproof coats, breeches, etc. A little over £5,000 will be required for issue in the metropolitan division.

Certain modifications in the existing uniforms have been decided upon as a result of amalgamation. A great coat of slightly altered make will replace in future issues the great coat heretofore worn by police in the Metropolitan area, and the material used for summer tunics in that area will be replaced by the material used for the Guards' tunics. The winter tunics will not be changed, and no existing articles of uniform or equipment will be discarded as a result of the amalgamation, except the D.M.P. cap badges, buttons, and belt buckles, which will be replaced by articles of the same pattern as that worn by the remainder of the force.

Sub-head F—Barrack bedding, £3,195. There is an increase in this item of £2,195. Last year the sum of £1,000 sufficed owing to large stocks being in hand. It is now necessary to make provision for supplies of beds and bedding for new stations and for replacements.

Sub-head G—Barrack maintenance, £3,500, a decrease of £500.

Sub-head H deals with transport, £10,276. There is a decrease of £2,495 in that sub-head. Provision is made for the purchase of transport for the detective branch. Each unit of the detective branch stationed at divisional headquarters will require to be provided with one Ford car, and a few tenders will also probably be required. The sum of £2,000 is included to enable advances to be made to divisional and district officers for the purchase of motor cars. These advances are repayable by monthly instalments over a period of twelve months.

Sub-head I—fuel, light and water, £17,500. There is an increase of £2,500 here due to the larger number of stations. Payments under the heading of fuel and light are based on fixed scales that have been sanctioned by the Minister for Finance. Payments for water are by meter in certain cases, and by domestic water rate where such is not payable by the landlord in the terms of the letting.

Sub-head M—telegrams and telephones, £8,817, shows a decrease of £3,417. The estimate for last year was somewhat in excess of requirements, as the installation of telephones by the Post Office was not made as rapidly as we anticipated. The Post Office has been requested to instal telephones at all Gárda Síochána stations as far as possible, but exchange facilities are not yet available in many rural areas. Telephones have been already provided in about 243 stations. It was hoped that it will be possible to increase the number considerably during the year. The other sub-heads seem self-explanatory and scarcely call for special mention.

With regard to the detective branch, when the Police Forces Amalgamation Bill was under discussion last December, I indicated that it was the intention to create a unified detective branch for the entire area of jurisdiction of the State—a plain-clothes detective branch, which would be armed, and which would deal, primarily at any rate, with major crime. That intention has been carried into effect. The strength of that branch is as follows:— 1 Chief Superintendent, 3 Superintendents, 6 inspectors, 39 Sergeants, and 192 Guards. The branch is made up of the former detective branch of the Dublin Metropolitan Police, 100 members specially selected from the Gárda Síochána, and in addition about 50 specially selected ex-members of the National Army, most of them being ex-officers. In forecasting the formation of this branch I gave an undertaking that a particularly close scrutiny would be made of the character of the men recruited for it, and I wish to mention that that undertaking has been very fully carried out.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I would like to preface my remarks by saying that there is general appreciation of the good character and the good conduct of the Guards in the country. It is the general opinion that they are doing their best to carry out their duties in a manner that is not disagreeable to the people with whom they come into contact. At the same time I want to offer one or two criticisms from my own point of view. I think the Guards devote too much attention to petty detail, and that in some cases crimes of considerable importance have been overlooked, or, at least the culprits escaped detection. On reading a local paper I noticed that one Guard when giving evidence concerning a licensing prosecution, stated that he measured the distance from the house of a man who claimed that he was a bona-fide traveller to the publichouse where he was found drinking, and found it 100 yards short of three miles. I think the R.I.C. formerly measured the distance and found it somewhat over the three miles. If that is the kind of work Guards are engaged in, and if they have time to waste on it, there are too many of them there.

Mr. JOHNSON

What sort of business did the establishment do on Sunday?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

It was a publichouse. We know that the number of Guards do not equal the numbers reached by the R.I.C., but I think it was generally acknowledged that the numbers of the R.I.C. were altogether excessive. The hope was expressed that we would be able to carry on with a much smaller force, but I see that we have now a very large force of Guards and that the total, including the D.M.P., is 7,199. In my opinion, we should be able to carry on the work of maintaining the peace of the country with a much smaller force. It is rather a pity that the Guards have been permanently established and that the men are entitled to retain their positions. I suppose that arose owing to the disturbed state of the country when the Guards were established. I hope that the country will be much less disturbed and that, with the inculcation of better ideas of conduct, we will be able to do with a much smaller force of police. In small villages throughout the country there are four, five, and, I believe, sometimes six Civic Guards, while in the towns the numbers are larger.

I have had some experience of another country—Canada—and I know that in the villages and also in some of the smaller towns there would be one local policeman, not in uniform, doing practically part-time work. He engages in some other occupation until something arises which requires his services.

If any serious crime took place—I am referring now to Canada—a wire would be sent to the nearest station of the North-West Mounted Police, and policemen would be sent along. By that means a very large area of country is policed at comparatively small expense. I think there is no more law-abiding country in the world than Canada. I am sorry to say that we, in this country, have not reached that stage yet. I do not say that the fault is the fault of the police but rather, I am sorry to say, of the people. With the establishment of our own Government it is up to every man in the country to see that peace is maintained. I think that we ought to be able to carry on with a much smaller police force than we have. In that connection, I would like to ask the Minister what obligations the State stands under with regard to recruited police. Has it, for instance, the power to dispense with the services of policemen if it be found that the force has become a redundant one? Supposing it is found necessary to dispense with the services of some of these men, can they be got rid of without paying them pensions or excessive amounts as compensation? I hope the time will soon come when we will be able to carry on with a much smaller police force than we have now. When that time arrived it would be a pity if we found ourselves in the position of being obliged to retain an establishment of the present strength on account of obligations which we had incurred in regard to their maintenance.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I have very little to add to the statement made by Deputy Heffernan. I do not think that I should be expected to answer here for an isolated member of the Gárda making a measurement in connection with the prosecution of an isolated publican in Tipperary. The generalisations from that incident were based somewhat weakly in my opinion. I am dealing, you see, with actualities, and not with the Ireland of Deputy Heffernan's dreams, when the policeman, like the snake, will be banished from our shores. But in the actual existing conditions, the strength of the force is no more than adequate, if adequate. We have had to refuse applications from a great many villages through the country where there are no Gárda stations, applications in which the inhabitants, supported by clergy and others, endeavoured to make a very strong case for the establishment of a station. We have had to take a rather stern view on matters of that kind, and to discount a great dea of the argument in the cases put for ward. We are endeavouring, by a fairly wide system of patrols, to see that the areas are covered, and to get along with what we believe to be the minimum number of stations. I do no think there is anything else that call for comment.

With regard to Deputy Heffernan' point, that we may find ourselves in the ideal future saddled with a wholl unnecessary police force, I am incline to share the view that we are in no imminent danger of that situation arising. If it does come about, then you can simply cease to fill up the vacancies that arise through wastage, and wastage in a police force is very, very high, particularly in a young force. Men are constantly dropping out for one reason or another, some because a better opening presents itself or that the life is not the ideal thing which they thought it was going to be—standing in the sunshine patting a dog on the head. The duties prove to be too numerous or too heavy, and they get out, or they may find themselves unsuitable. There is a constant wastage that way. Men are dismissed for various offences and dismissals are high, rather too high, but not in the sense that I believe the discipline is too strict. It is a wastage and a disappointment having trained a man in the depot, and so on, to find that you have to dismiss him subsequently for serious lapses of one kind or another. However, I understand that, in comparison with other forces, the wastage owing to dismissals and reductions, and so on, is not unduly high. Wastage of that kind is very high in other police forces. If the ideal situation foreshadowed by Deputy Heffernan comes about, it will be easy to meet it, simply by omitting to fill up the vacancies that occur in the natural course through wastage of that kind.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

In regard to searches and raids carried out by the Gárda, at night time, I desire to know from the Minister if instructions have been issued that these men, when not in uniform, are to carry with them some form of identification. We have had complaints that when raids were made by them that no form of identification was produced. Of course, these stories may not be correct. I would like to know if definite orders have been issued to the effect that, when members of the force go out at night in plain clothes to make raids or searches, it is incumbent on them to be provided with some kind of identification in the shape of a badge or a document?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Yes, there are such instructions.

Vote 30 put and agreed to.