Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 28 May 1925

Vol. 11 No. 22

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES. VOTE 2.—OIREACHTAS.

MINISTER for FINANCE (Mr. Blythe)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £76,700 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1926, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí an Oireachtais.

That a sum not exceeding £76,700 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1926, for the salaries and expenses of the Oireachtas.

Sub-head (a) of this Vote provides for the allowances at the rate of £30 per month for Teachtai who are not in receipt of salaries as Parliamentary Secretaries. This year, as last, we have thought it right to provide for the full complement of Teachtai. I do not suppose it is likely that all the members who have been elected will take their seats.

Mr. C. HOGAN

Does the Minister want them?

Mr. BLYTHE

We thought we ought not to neglect to make provision for their doing what they ought to do. There is a slight saving under sub-head (b)—"Travelling Expenses of Teachtaí." That is based on the experience of last year. In the case of the Seanad there is provision for the total number of Senators and there is again a small reduction in the amount provided for travelling expenses. That is also based on last year's experience. Sub-head (e) shows no very great change. There is a certain amount of increase due to increments. Amongst the additions to the staff has been that of a shorthand-typist, who was found to be necessary owing to the considerable rush of work that was experienced all along during the year. There are also twelve cleaners employed here who were not employed last year. Against that there is a disappearance of the item for allowances for the service of porters, engine man, attendants and cleaners of the staff of the Royal Dublin Society, which amounted to £600 last year. With the disapperance of the R.D.S. from these buildings, provision for the House maintenance comes directly in the ordinary way on this Vote.

There is provision for one junior executive officer this year as against three last year. As a matter of fact, only one was appointed. The provision for three last year was in anticipation of requirements. It was found, however, that it was unnecessary to appoint more than one. As to the item of telephones and telegrams, the sum of £100 is put down for telegrams as a precautionary measure, in case it were necessary to communicate with members of the Oireachtas by telegram for any reason during the year. Last year the expenditure on telegrams was only £4. It may be that there will be no greater expenditure this year, but it was felt desirable to include provision in case it were necessary. The figure for telephones seems to be fairly high, but there is a large number in the building, and there is a considerable amount of telephoning from them. The contribution of the Saorstát Eireann Inter-Parliamentary Union to the Central Body at Geneva appears here. This body has already received a contribution from State funds. I am sure it is a very estimable body, but on reading the file I discovered that they managed to get the money without stating, in writing at any rate, just exactly what is the work and the importance of the Inter-Parliamentary Union, which was a feat on which they are probably to be congratulated.

Major COOPER

As I am accounting officer in this regard, is the Minister aware that he has received a full and audited balance sheet?

Mr. BLYTHE

Yes, but nothing to show what were the objects or purposes of the work of the Union as such.

Major COOPER

If the Minister would join the Union he would find out.

Capt. REDMOND

Is the Minister not in favour of the Vote? Does he intend to remove a reduction?

Mr. BLYTHE

No.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

On sub-head (a), I should like to raise a question as to the Deputies who do not attend the Dáil. I do not mean the Deputies who belong to a certain party which has decided not to send representatives into the Dáil. I refer to certain Deputies who are well-known to members and who are giving very poor attendance. I know one or two and I think that they have not attended for months. I would suggest that some steps should be taken in the matter. It is not right that Deputies elected by the people, and who have agreed to accept the allowance for expenditure, should continue to occupy that position, draw the allowance and give no service whatever.

The PRESIDENT

I beg to point out to the Deputy that the Constitution provides in the first place that the Oireachtas shall provide payment for its members. There is also a statutory enactment providing for payment of a certain allowance, and we are carrying out the provisions of that particular Act. I do not know if the Deputy was a member when it was passed, but that would be the occasion to make provision for such recalcitrant members, if they can be called that, who do not turn up. I do not think it is a matter which, even if it had been provided for, it would be easy to manage. However, the fact is that there is a statutory obligation on the Minister for Finance to pay those members, and, as far as I know, there has been no machinery provided to show in what way members attend.

On the occasion of this Vote, I take the opportunity with very much regret to inform the Dáil that the Ceann Comhairle is at present incapacitated from attending, and will be so for two or three weeks, or more, possibly. He has not been in very good health, and I took the liberty of advising him, in accordance with the advice he had previously received from his medical advisers, that he should take a holiday. I am sure I took that action with the approval of all the Deputies, and that we will express the hope that he will be able to return to his duties shortly, fully restored to health.

Mr. GOREY

I take this opportunity of asking, what is a member of this House? When do they fulfil the conditions and become members? Certain conditions have to be complied with. First, they have to be elected, then they have to come here and subscribe to the Constitution and sign the roll. There is a good deal of doubt as to the position of those who have not come into the Dáil, and as to the proper procedure to adopt—whether to leave it as it is or try to meet the situation. It is quite plain that unless all the conditions are complied with there are only a limited number who are really members of the Dáil. It is questionable whether some of the seats have not been automatically vacated. I have been asked to get some information on this head, and I take this opportunity to ask for it.

The PRESIDENT

No Act has been passed declaring that a Deputy must comply with the terms of the Constitution within a given period. It has been left over. It would be open to anyone on the last or any of the final days of the sitting of the Dáil to enter the House and become a member. There are provisions in the Payment of Members Act, I believe, stipulating from what period any allowance would be paid, but other than that, there is nothing provided for. The other question is a political question, and my personal view is that it is better to let those matters rest. It is, after all, a question for the constituencies: if they are dissatisfied with the persons they have elected. They have elected them. Certain sections in the country, under the Constitution and under the proportional representation system, have the right, if they so desire, of electing persons who would not take their seats in the Dáil. An interference with that just now would, in my view, be rather unfair.

I have previously expressed here what my views were on the question of proportional representation for any constituency returning more than one member—which applies to every constituency—that an election which is brought about either by death or resignation is not fair to the particular section of the community that sent the particular member here. Let us take, as an instance, the Independent members, apart from those representing Trinity College. A by-election in any constituency would, in the majority of cases, not result in the return of a person who would represent the particular section of the community which had previously returned an Independent member. In my view, that is unfair; but that view is not shared by others. If Deputies would wish me to be more explicit, I would take as an illustration a Deputy representing, say, the Chamber of Commerce in Dublin or the Dublin Port and Docks Board—a man of that type having a city seat and vacating it. It is unlikely that at a by-election a representative of the same group would be elected. Such Deputies represent something a little different from what is called the majority party, and my view is that you disturb the essence of proportional representation if you place upon the shoulders of the whole electorate the responsibility of returning a Deputy in such a case. Probably a supporter of the majority party would be returned, while the person vacating the seat might be a minority member. It appears to me a better method of selection, as long as proportional representation is the method of election, to allow the particular sections responsible for the nomination of the original Deputy to nominate his successor, and to have his co-option moved in the Dáil. That view is not accepted by other people, but I think it is the essence of proportional representation.

Mr. JOHNSON

Does the President mean that the nominator of the member would be the person to nominate his successor?

The PRESIDENT

No; the group.

Mr. JOHNSON

Suppose he is not a member of a group?

The PRESIDENT

I take it that more than one nomination paper is handed in. That is generally the case. If it were left to that group, I think the idea of proportional representation would be better carried out.

Mr. GOREY

My question was not directed to politics or to the political aspect at all. I wanted to know what was the position with regard to them.

Mr. T.J. O'CONNELL

The law courts is the place for that.

Mr. GOREY

What is the law in this respect?

The PRESIDENT

There is no law.

Mr. GOREY

My question was not directed to what was right or wrong with regard to political parties at all. It was merely to find out what the position was.

Mr. MORRISSEY

Under sub-head (b), I would like to know if the President has been able to make any arrangements, as promised last year, with regard to a change in the present system of issuing vouchers to Deputies. I think the President undertook last year to see if anything could be done in the matter.

The PRESIDENT

I have been in consultation with the Minister for Finance on many occasions regarding this matter, and one other matter of which Deputies are not aware. We were considering the introduction of legislation to remedy some little technical defects which were not anticipated at the time of the introduction of the Payment to Members Act. This question will be considered at the time that that particular matter is brought forward, and we hope that we will be able to meet the views of Deputies in this connection.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

The President has aroused the curiosity of the Dáil and, perhaps, he would tell us now what the matter is to which he has referred.

The PRESIDENT

It would not be in the interests of the Deputy that I should mention it.

Major COOPER

Under sub-head (e), I would like to raise a few points. The Minister's opening statement has been so full that it leaves very little room for general criticism. I want to call attention to the sums set down, of £600 and £350, for a librarian and assistant librarian for the Oireachtas. I do not think £950 would be at all too much to pay if Deputies and Senators were able to go to the library and get the help which they may need on certain subjects. At present that situation does not exist. I do not know if I am exceptionally ignorant, but I have to admit that I do not know where the librarian is to be found. I do not know whom I can turn to to find out provisions in British Acts or in British Parliamentary papers. I suppose the librarian is somewhere in the building, but there is no indication, to the ordinary member, as to where he can find him or whether he can get any help from him if he does succeed in finding him.

Our library, which is a very small one, is not, I think, very well arranged. Certain papers are filed but others are left lying about loosely. That applies to the cost-of-living papers. They are not filed but are left lying about the room. You may take up one which will be for October and the next you take up may be for May. Again, books disappear from the library, at times, without any indication as to where they are gone. Last year, after a good deal of agitation, we succeeded in having a collection of British Acts placed there. Two days ago these British Acts disappeared. I suppose they have been removed to some other part of the building but there is no notice that these Acts can be consulted somewhere else. If we are to vote £950 to this service——

Mr. JOHNSON

Plus bonus.

Major COOPER

If we are to vote this sum, plus bonus, we have a right to a little more consideration than we are receiving at present.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I would like to ask for a fuller statement of the position in regard to the library. As regards the librarian, Deputy Cooper's question, unless I am very much mistaken, answers itself in the arrangements now being made for an office for the librarian. At all events, that was the information I got yesterday when I inquired as to what was the object of the carpentry work that was proceeding. I would like if the President, in reply, would state what books are being brought into the library, where those books come from, where these Acts that have disappeared have gone to and what is being done to put the library on a footing commensurate with the Parliament of this country. Even as it is, the books that are there— wherever they have come from—do not exactly constitute the kind of library that one would think ought to be possessed by this Parliament.

The PRESIDENT

This service is one that has been interrupted by reason of the fact that the accommodation available for the Oireachtas has been delayed. Now that Leinster House is definitely devoted to the Oireachtas, I understand that arrangements are being made for the setting up of the library. The library will consist, in the main, of the books that constituted the Castle Library, and I understand that the Ceann Comhairle will be responsible for making application for such Acts as are needed by Deputies or Senators, in the course of their duties. I should think that by the time the Dáil reassembles in the autumn, the library will be functioning to the satisfaction of members of both Houses of the Oireachtas.

Mr. JOHNSON

I am afraid the President has missed the point of Deputy Cooper's request. Provision has been voted for the librarian and assistant librarian for two, or perhaps three years, but we do not know which officer to apply to for information with regard to the library, such as it is. I think some information is due us on this matter. I do not think the matter was raised in previous years. We were hoping that the library would be made available and that it would be possible to get access to the volumes that are now in the Castle Library. I think it is due to us that we should have some information as to the librarian, where his office is, how he can be found and what his functions are.

The PRESIDENT

The librarian's office at present is in the Castle. The names of the librarian and assistant librarian were, I think, given to the Dáil before. Mr. Kenny, known as a writer as "Sean Gall," is librarian, and Alderman Kelly is assistant librarian. I take it that both officers will be responsible to the Ceann Comhairle through the Clerk of the House.

Major COOPER

I do not think the Castle Library will meet our needs. Presumably, there have been no additions to the Castle Library since 1921, and the essence of a Parliamentary library is that it should be up to date. What we need are such documents as the Report of the Cost-of-Living Committee in Great Britain. We should, too, have access to the new British Pensions Bill, in case the Labour Deputies desire to draft and bring in a similar measure. I do not say that we require all the British Acts, but we require a great many of them. The smaller British Statutes we may not need, but they would be very useful to us if we could get them. Then we should have the Year Books of the various dominions—Canada, New Zealand, and so on. I believe these Year Books are somewhere in the building at present. I raised that point last year, and the Ceann Comhairle told me that they were in the building, but that there was no means of making them available.

I think there has been too much delay in connection with the library. We took over Leinster House nearly six months ago, and the delay that has occurred has been a very great handicap on private Deputies, as compared with Ministers. A Minister can send his private secretary to the National Library or elsewhere in search of the material he requires, but a private Deputy has to do his own research work, and he is labouring under immense difficulties at present. If we are to work the library, I think the responsibility should not be left solely on the Ceann Comhairle. He should be assisted by a Library Committee, representing all Parties. They will be able to see that the books that they require are procured. It is a somewhat onerous responsibility, and the Ceann Comhairle should have the assistance of members drawn from all sides of the Dáil, so that they may indicate what books and papers they require. I should say that what we require are Parliamentary papers, census returns and statistics, rather than a library of books.

The PRESIDENT

I would like to remind Deputy Cooper that while Leinster House has been in our possession for six months, it was only at its last meeting, or second last meeting, that the Seanad was accommodated here. There was a physical difficulty in providing for the library. It is now, however, on the point of completion. All those books and Acts and papers are to be had. They are here, and they will be available as soon as the institution itself is in working order.

Vote put, and agreed to.