Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 29 May 1925

Vol. 11 No. 23

DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - INDUSTRIAL AND COMMERCIAL PROPERTY BILL, 1925.

Second Stage resumed.

Question—"That the Bill be read a Second Time"—put and agreed to.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

With regard to the next stage, I would like to move so as to test the opinion of the House on this motion:—

"That it is expedient that the Industrial and Commercial Property Bill, 1925, be referred to a Joint Committee of the Dáil and Seanad, consisting of seven members of each House."

It is a Bill of a very technical kind, and the Committee Stage of it might be shortened by referring it to a Joint Select Committee of both Houses. If there is no objection to that, an intimation could afterwards be sent to the Seanad.

Mr. JOHNSON

I agree with the idea contained in the motion, but I think there is nothing provided for in Standing Orders which would allow such a Joint Committee. I think it is desirable that some arrangement of the kind should be entered upon. I am doubtful as to the orderliness of this motion. It affects a matter of considerable constitutional importance, and there may be objections raised. I would suggest for the consideration of the Minister that the ordinary process of referring it to a special committee be taken. Then, perhaps, a motion may be made at a later stage, after notice is given, that this new method should be adopted. A Joint Committee of the Dáil and Seanad to deal with a Bill in the Dáil and not yet in the Seanad is not provided for. I question whether it is in order to deal with a matter of considerable importance affecting the relations between the two Houses on a motion without notice.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

If I might intervene again, I understand there is no Standing Order in the Dáil relative to this matter; there is in the Seanad, and the Seanad has apparently made provision for referring to a Joint Committee of both Houses a matter which had come before the Seanad and which at the time had not come before the Dáil. I was endeavouring to recast that Standing Order from the point of view of the Dáil. Deputy Johnson is quite correct when he says we have no Standing Order to that effect. As he has raised an objection, I do not mind leaving the matter over. I do not think there is going to be any great gain in time in pressing this at the moment. The Seanad has adjourned until the 10th June and we have a considerable amount of time inside of that period in which to reconsider this matter. If Deputy Johnson proposes that this Industrial and Commercial Property (Protection) Bill be referred to a Select Committee of the Dáil, then we might be in a position to take measures after that.

Mr. JOHNSON

That was my idea. I move that the Bill be referred to a Special Committee of the Dáil.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

took the Chair.

Major COOPER

I beg to second Deputy Johnson's amendment.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I withdraw my proposal in favour of Deputy Johnson's

Major COOPER

This is a very valuable Bill from every point of view, including the point of view of the Stationery Office. The Stationery Office charge two shillings for this Bill, while in the case of an ordinary common Bill like the Shannon Bill the charge is only ninepence. It is really a very important and very technical Bill. All the matters of patents, of copyright are regulated by certain international conventions. When we are discussing the Bill we shall have to discuss it continually with one eye on the international law dealing with that subject. I believe that can be done better in a small committee than in a discussion in the Dáil. A committee of the Dáil discussing the Bill will have the presence and advice of law officers. I take it it will be a committee that will have power to send for persons and documents. Will that power be included?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Yes.

Major COOPER

It might be desirable to know the copyright and patent laws that apply in other countries before we regulate the patent law of this country. I have only studied the Bill from the point of view of copyright. My own books do not sell to such an extent as to make my copyright of any value. Copyright outside Ireland is of very much more value to the Irish author than a copyright inside Ireland. No Irish author has ever written a book that would keep him alive through the sale of that book inside Ireland.

Mr. JOHNSON

What about "Old Moore's Almanac?"

Major COOPER

I believe that is an adaptation of a British publication. If Deputy Johnson was more experienced in the racing world, he might know that possibly the "Irish Turf Guide" may have a sale that would keep its composite authors alive. Possibly "Old Moore's Almanac" is a work of imagination. Possibly "Purdon's Almanac" is a lucrative proposition. But, generally speaking, the Irish author depends very largely on his outside sales. When we are considering the question of copyright we must keep that fact in mind. If we want to encourage literature here, and I have no doubt we do, we must not be making an unduly rigid copyright law without having some reciprocity in other countries. A committee of the Dáil will deal more satisfactorily with the matter than the whole Dáil, and in addition, the time of the Dáil will be saved to a great extent.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Will Deputy Johnson indicate the number of Deputies to be appointed on the Committee?

Mr. JOHNSON

I think the practice has been to refer that to the Selection Committee. I would suggest that six Deputies be appointed. It is merely a matter of form now in naming the number.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

What date would the Deputy suggest?

Mr. JOHNSON

I would suggest the 12th June.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The Deputy suggests six members of the Committee should represent the Dáil and he is now naming the date for 12th June. The Committee of Selection will select the six Deputies. If the Deputy would make the date a little earlier than the 12th June it would be more suitable.

Mr. JOHNSON

My reason for naming the 12th June was that I had hoped in the meantime some arrangement would be made that would discharge this order, following a decision in the Seanad. If the Committee were to meet in the meantime, I suggest its decisions would be rather compromised. It would be better to have a decision from the Seanad before the Committee actually gets to work.

Question—"That the Bill be referred to a Special Committee consisting of six Deputies to be selected by the Committee of Selection"—put and agreed to.