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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 30 Jun 1925

Vol. 12 No. 16

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - MONEY RESOLUTION—AGRICULTURAL GRANT.

The message prescribed by the Constitution has been received from the Governor-General. I move:

Go bhfuil sé oiriúnach a údarú go n-íocfar amach as Airgead a sholáthróidh an tOireachtas do réir aon Achta a rithfar sa tSiosón so pé méaduithe sa deontas talmhaíochta a deontar fén Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898, a sholáthróidh an tOireachtas sa bhliain airgeadais dar tosach an ladh lá d'Abrán, 1925, agus i ngach bliain airgeadais ina dhiaidh sin.

That it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys to be provided by the Oireachtas in pursuance of any Act of the present Session of such increases in the agricultural grant made under the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898, as the Oireachtas may provide in the financial year beginning on the 1st day of April, 1925, and in every subsequent financial year.

The last message that was announced indicated that the message contained certain details which were also contained in the Resolution. We are now in the position of not knowing what would be possible in a discussion of this Resolution, because we do not know what the message contains. It may contain details. I think we are in the position now of not knowing how far our discussion would be futile, because we do not know whether any action we may take would be stopped or made of no effect by virtue of the terms of the message. I would like to know from you, sir, whether we ought to know the terms of this message, for fear it nullifies the effect of any discussion we may engage in, in respect of the Resolution.

I have the message here. The message can be communicated to the Dáil, if the Dáil so desires. The question of the effect of the message on our deliberations is a different one. If the Minister, for example, urges that a particular amendment to the Money Resolution is out of order, on the ground that it is not provided for in the message, or for any reason connected with the message, then, of course, we would have to consider the message. If not, the urgency does not arise to have the text of the message communicated.

The point is that the Dáil may discuss this Resolution which has been brought before it for a purpose. We may take certain action upon it and then we may be told that that action was futile because the message is in detail and does not authorise it.

Could the Dáil not be told the terms of the message even before it takes that action?

I want to make the point—there was something implied in what was said last week—that when we have a very narrowly-drawn message in respect to a Money Resolution, we are thereby prohibited from even discussing the Resolution, because we may be simply talking to the brick walls inasmuch as the message itself already binds us too narrowly; possibly, for all we know, much more narrowly than the Resolution which we may be discussing. I do not know what the message contains and I do not want to exaggerate the importance of the message; but I want to make the point, and make it clearly, that if the message that is received in accordance with the Constitution is going to be drawn within very narrow limits, and defined in a detailed manner that would have the effect of precluding our discussion on the Resolution, it ought to be made known to us. If that is to be the form which the message takes, then it ought to be made known to us so that we would know exactly where we are.

In other words, if the message is invoked to rule some discussion out of order the message ought to be communicated? Would that satisfy Deputy Johnson? Is that his point?

That may be the form of satisfaction that I may require, but I want to draw attention to the narrowing effect upon the discussions of the Dáil of a message which is in close detail rather than a broad message which would allow us full discussion.

We have never seen any of those messages before. I would rather assume—I would like to be corrected if I am wrong—that the Financial Resolutions that come before the Dáil are practically in the same words as the message, with the exception of the preliminary phrase: "That it is expedient to authorise." Thereafter, the Financial Resolution considered by the Dáil is word for word that of the message. If it is not so, it is very desirable that it should be. There is no reason why there should be any change between the two. I had always assumed when we were considering the Financial Resolutions that, with the exception of the preliminary phrase, we were considering the message.

The Deputy may not have been present when this question arose before on the Sugar Beet Bill. A proposed amendment to one of the sections of the Bill was stated to be doubtfully in order because the terms of the Money Resolution were very narrowly defined. It was pointed out, when we entered upon an attempt to amend the Money Resolution, that it would be no use, because the message itself was already just as narrowly defined as the Money Resolution. My protest, in fact, is against the form of narrowly-defined Money Resolutions. In this case it is not so narrowly defined, but I want to get the protest in, nevertheless.

I think Deputy Johnson has got in his protest.

I am not sure that I understand it. However, the Money Resolution is a question for the Dáil itself; the message is a different thing. If the message be invoked to prevent any particular kind of amendment to the Money Resolution, then a Deputy could call for the message. If the Deputy finds any fault with the message as then communicated to him, the point as to how the message should be drafted could then be raised. There may be some question as to the propriety of drafting a Money Resolution in a particular way and there may be a question of privilege. There are two very different questions. One would be a question of whether a resolution should be drafted in a particular way; the other would be a question whether a particular restriction should be placed, not, of course, by the Governor-General, but in reality by the Executive Council, on the powers of the Dáil to discuss a particular matter. They are two separate questions.

I was not raising the question for discussion at all. Inadvertently I initiated the discussion by remarking that possibly if money were appropriated without the purpose being recommended by the Governor-General, as prescribed by the Constitution, the Courts might, perhaps, render the action invalid.

Does not the Minister mean after the purpose has been communicated to the Executive Council in one capacity, and by the Executive Council in another capacity?

The question the Minister raised is different altogether from the question of how the Governor-General's message, which is really the message of the Executive Council, should be drafted for the purpose of carrying out the requirements of the Constitution. They are two different points. Deputy Connor Hogan has an amendment to this resolution. I endeavoured to read it with the resolution, and there is a difficulty in understanding the point.

I propose the following amendment:—

To delete the words "out of Moneys to be provided by the Oireachtas" and substitute therefor the words "of Moneys out of the Central Fund or the growing produce thereof" and to delete all words after the figures "1898" to the end and substitute the words "in every financial year, commencing in the year beginning on the 1st day of April, 1925."

As I already indicated this afternoon, this proposal is intended to make any further increase in the agricultural grant directly payable out of the Central Fund. As you are aware, the Act of 1898 enabled this money to be paid out of the Central Fund; it did not appear on the British Estimates. I do not see any reason for this differentiation at this time of the day. Perhaps it is due to the fact that the Minister, summing up the situation, is inclined to give us a sop, but it will be variable in quantity. He may take this view point. I think it was expressed already in the House that this grant that has been given to us is more or less an equivalent of the sum he hopes to net from the apparel tax. Seeing, of course, that this is a protective duty, the natural trend of things will be that the sum will diminish as the years roll by. The Minister is probably afraid to commit himself on the point that, while the source of revenue he expects to meet this charge is diminishing, he hesitates about entering into a definite bond and bargain to let the money appear on the Central Fund.

The Deputy is not making a definite bargain in this amendment.

I quite appreciate that there is not a definite bargain. It is true the Minister can bring in an equivalent sum. There is nothing, at the same time, in the Rules of the House to prevent a serious reduction in that Vote and it has run the gauntlet of the House. It is possible, owing to pressure that may be put on the Minister, that the money may not be given according to the Act of 1898, and it may be clogged with conditions. You may, perhaps, have an unholy alliance of the business men and the Labour Deputies to restrain the good efforts of the Minister or to wreck his benevolent intentions. I think the proper thing would be to make this payment out of the Central Fund. I am sure that the Minister must have his eye, more or less, on the fact that, while the trend of things will be to reduce expenditure, he may be afraid to stereotype the sum. That may be the case but I am not in a position to judge. Let us realise what the grant was. Let us go into its history. The agricultural grant, in essence, according to the precedent of 1898, means a contribution by the State equivalent to half the rates then levied on agricultural land. It is true that as the years went by the grant ceased to bear the ratio of fifty-fifty. That was, perhaps, due to the decline in the purchasing power of money and, in addition, to the fact that stringency was not observed by local bodies over moneys raised locally. I think it is undesirable that part of this money should come from the Central Fund and another part be voted annually. I think it would be better that there should be something in the nature of uniformity in the disposal of this grant. Will the Minister explain why it should come on the Estimates instead of on the Central Fund, as I see nothing to cause this differentiation? I ask the Government and the House to take the view that it is undesirable that this sum should appear on the Estimates, and that there is no justification, even if the occasion warrants such a remark, for it being submitted to a vote of the House. It is a payment in positive justice and, owing to the high expenditure in local administration, it falls far short of the sum required. Even if the Minister doubled the grant it would not bear the same ratio as that of 1898. The Minister may, perhaps, say that it is possible to increase it. It is possible but it is merely a theoretical right. The probabilities are that it will be a dwindling sum each year, and, in any case, other conditions will be put into operation and it will fall far short of the objective, namely, giving relief to the agrarian community.

Before the Deputy moves this amendment, may I ask whether he thinks that the resolution as proposed to be amended would make any provision for the money?

"That it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys to be provided by the Oireachtas in pursuance of any Act of the present session of such increases in the Agricultural Grant made under the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898"——

Where would the money be provided? The Minister proposes to provide the money on a Supplementary Estimate. Where would the Deputy provide the money?

I would amend the Local Government (Rates on Agricultural Land) Bill, 1925.

In what way could the Bill be amended to make it fall in with this? If this amendment were adopted what amendment would be necessary to the Bill?

An amendment in the title and an amendment in Section 2, sub-section (1).

I want to see that this amendment has a meaning. The Minister's scheme will produce money. There is no doubt about that. The Deputy is putting up an alternative scheme, but will that alternative scheme produce the money, and how?

If the Minister accepts the amendment.

What will the amendment be? The Deputy must have given consideration to the matter before moving an amendment dealing with public money. He must have considered the whole scheme and he must have some idea where he is going to get the money. You must provide some way of getting the money into the Central Fund and then get authority for getting it out. These are the two processes.

I submit that you could amend it by deleting the words "out of moneys to be provided by the Oireachtas" and substitute the words "of moneys out of the Central Fund or the growing produce thereof." There would be a consequential amendment in Section 2, sub-section (1) as follows: to delete the words "as shall be provided for such purposes for the financial year by the Oireachtas."

What moneys? This matter is so simple I cannot explain it. The Deputy is proposing to get money out of the Central Fund. What money and how much money?

A sum equivalent to the amount allowed under the Act of 1898, £599,000.

That involves a series of amendments which should be ready. The Deputy must have definite proposals showing what is amended, and he should have the amendments clearly drafted for the consideration of the Dáil and the Minister. You cannot deal casually with half a million of money in that fashion.

I would venture to suggest that the Deputy did not contemplate the Dáil accepting this amendment.

I would like the Deputy to understand that we should not have amendments dealing with money resolutions unless all their ramifications are considered. It is a waste of time and is improper procedure. We cannot have casual amendments dealing with money. Our whole procedure is based on a serious consideration of anything relating to money. It is impossible to put a charge on the public funds without more than one stage. I do not propose to accept the amendment.

Does it not raise a point, that I think has been suggested in the Dáil several times during the past two or three years, that private Deputies, unlike Ministers, without having any assistance at their disposal are confronted with very considerable difficulties in drafting amendments like this. It would be desirable that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges should consider the matter of providing drafting assistance for Deputies in order that they might be able to deal with this matter. I agree that Deputy Connor Hogan has not considered the question of how he is to get the money in before he can get it out again, but even if he had it would not be easy for him, or for any private Deputy, to undertake the very considerable task of drawing amendments that would be required, before he could properly effect his purpose.

I think it is only due to say that on a matter of this kind, at least, any Deputy would be able to obtain quite competent assistance by making an application to the Clerk. I think, whatever points there may be in Deputy Figgis's argument in favour of an official draughtsman being available for the Deputies, the point raised in this motion is one that, even without that official draughtsman's assistance, could be made clear on application to the Clerk for assistance.

I do not know whether Deputy Connor Hogan was aware of that, but I was not aware of it. On any important measure, if a large number of Deputies were to come to the Clerk for assistance in the drafting of amendments of this kind, the Clerk would find himself unable to do any other work.

The Clerk and the staff of the Dáil are for the service of Deputies, and I have never heard that any Deputy who applied for any assistance which could reasonably be given has any cause for complaint. I personally would be very glad if Deputies would avail themselves of the services of the staff. If before putting down amendments Deputies consulted the Clerk they would be always sure of getting assistance, and not only would they be sure of getting assistance in that way, but I feel they would have no difficulty in getting other assistance through the Clerk, even from the Minister, or those responsible for the Bill. As the point has been raised I would like to emphasise that it would do a great deal to facilitate work here if Deputies made more use of the staff, and when putting down amendments of any kind consulted somebody as to what their implications were. It has been suggested that if too many Deputies made application it would be difficult to cope with it. I would say that if a strain of any kind like that were put on the staff we would cope with it, or make arrangements to cope with it, for that is exactly our business. My difficulty with this amendment was that when it appeared the Deputy was gone, and he could not be consulted. I always like before ruling an amendment out of order to consult with the Deputy and explain the position to him, to see if there was anything he could do to put it right. In this case I got no opportunity until after 3 o'clock to-day. Deputies should have no hesitation in asking for assistance in the drafting of amendments, or for finding out if they are in order, and that assistance will always be given. As a matter of fact, many Deputies will be aware that they have got that assistance already.

While, of course, I admit you can rule me out of order, I want to say that I feel bound to deprecate a statement which has been made, as it is of personal reflection on me, namely, that this amendment was put in to waste the time of the House, and that it would be highly improper to do that. It is true that the Minister asked me did I expect this amendment to be accepted by the Dáil, and I replied that I did not. Let us understand the consequences. I knew in putting down the amendment that the Minister, or the majority of the Dáil, would not accept it. Though the Minister had already cut out his line of action, I thought it was within my right to urge the viewpoint that this charge should be on the Central Fund instead of being an annual payment voted by the House. I do not like that it should be suggested that I brought forward this in a frivolous spirit. I did not. I absolutely deny the implication. I at least respect the liberties, rights, and privileges of the House, for they are common to all of us.

I feel Deputy Connor Hogan was quite right when he said he had no intention of wasting the time of the House. He wanted, whether successful or not, to put a particular point of view as he says, but there, again, if he would consult with the Clerk, who is not the servant of any Minister, but the servant of the Deputies, he would very often find a more effective method of putting a particular point of view. I agree that the amendment was not put down with the intention of wasting time.

Resolution put and agreed to.
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