Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 2 Jul 1925

Vol. 12 No. 18

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE No. 19—RELIEF SCHEMES.

Mr. BLYTHE

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim breise na rághaidh thar £135,000 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh Márta, 1926, chun síntiúisí i gcóir faoiseamh ar Dhíomhaointeas agus ar Ghátar.

That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £135,000 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1926, for contributions towards the relief of unemployment and distress.

This supplementary sum brings the provision for relief works up to £250,000. A considerable number of schemes have been approved and are in progress. As a matter of fact, in anticipation of this supplementary vote, certain provisional sanctions have been given to schemes which would never have been given if we had not intended to exceed £115,000. The sanctions so far given between a definite sanction covering £115,000 and a provisional sanction in anticipation of this Vote amount to £143,000. Of this allocation about £79,000 has been to the Land Commission for land improvement works, drainage, bog-roads and so-forth. A considerable proportion of that is really for the completion of works undertaken last year. The remainder is for smaller works. It is intended that a certain amount of new works might be done where they had not been started last year by the Land Commission. In some areas, for instance, the fluke disease was particularly bad and it was felt that provision for agricultural credit societies might not give all the relief we felt ought to be given in the circumstances. A somewhat similar sum has been allocated to works to be done under the Local Government Department. These comprise largely things like waterworks in places like Arklow, Abbeyfeale, Rathdrum, Youghal waterworks, Dingle waterworks, improvements in Dublin amounting to the extent of £25,000, and Bray. Then you had smaller sums such as £500 in Cobh. In Fermoy there was a couple of hundred pounds, and in Clonmel there was five or six hundred pounds. There was a bigger sum of £10,000 in Rathdowney. Of the total of £250,000 the sum of seventy or eighty thousand pounds has already been spent. It is hard to get exact figures at the moment. There remains actually to be allocated a little over £100,000. The work to be done with the remaining sum would be similar to the work for which allocation has been made. We will try to get in the districts where the distress is greatest and where the work can most effectually be done with a view to relieving unemployment and distress. Certain attention will be given to the possibility of having local money also spent with a view to increasing the sum available for wages in those areas.

I might mention that following partly on what the Minister for Industry and Commerce said, in addition to such sums as he has mentioned, there will be an expenditure under the new Housing Act for which a Supplementary Estimate will have to be taken immediately the Dail reassembles. That is additional work that will be taken beyond what he indicated.

Mr. CORISH

Would the Minister say through what medium areas where this distress is prevalent will approach the Minister, or what Ministry will they approach in this connection?

Mr. BLYTHE

In general, there are really two Ministers who put up schemes, the Minister for Local Government and the Minister for Lands and Agriculture. There might be schemes put up under the auspices of other Ministers, but in practice it works round to the two Ministers mentioned.

Mr. JOHNSON

I do not know are there many instances like one of which I had information this morning. It is, presumably, a Land Commission scheme. This morning a letter was sent to me from Kildurragh, Carrick-on-Shannon, on behalf of sixty labouring men:

"The Irish Land Commission started making a bog road in the townland of Kildurragh, Carrick-on-Shannon, last February. With a grant of £1,200 they state that they expended £800 on it, and ceased work in the last week of March"—

the election was on the 11th March—

"and informed the labourers that work would be resumed the first week in June, but nothing has been done since with the £400 left over. The road is neither well begun or finished, and the unfortunate men are idle and very much in need of employment. The poor men were kept weeks out of their pay ere the Land Commission settled up with them."

That is the point I want to direct attention to. The Land Commission, apparently, if those statements are accurate, set afoot this scheme, started a road, and partly finished it. It was left in abeyance since, but the men, apparently, were not able to get their money for weeks after they had earned it. I hope this is one of the schemes that is ready to be resumed immediately, and I hope it will be the practice to pay men when they have earned their wages. It may not be possible for the Minister to tell me here whether this is one of the actual schemes, but it would be pleasant to be able to reply to this letter and to say, in fact, that this work will be taken on immediately and that in future the work will be paid for immediately after it has been done.

Mr. BLYTHE

I do not know how the difficulty about paying men with some degree of promptitude arose. I have not heard anything of these cases. There were certain works stopped.

Mr. BAXTER

It was quite common that men were not paid for weeks.

Mr. BLYTHE

I was not aware of that. I was aware that works were stopped and we shall allocate sufficient money to the Minister for Lands and Agriculture to complete these works. There may be works which he would not particularly desire to continue, but where he feels they ought to be continued the money will be allocated to enable them to be completed.

Mr. JOHNSON

The Minister is not suggesting that where money was spent on works it was useless and there is the possibility that they will not be completed?

Mr. BLYTHE

There might be, for instance, a road which would serve a certain area, but not as big an area as we intended to serve in the first instance. If the distress there is not as acute as in another place, rather than complete that road we might do half of it and spend the rest of the money elsewhere. There may be cases of that sort.

Mr. BAXTER

What is to be the machinery by which this money is to be allocated and spent? I have no desire, and I am sure other Deputies have not, to come here and complain about the manner in which the money will be administered in future. I am not going to say anything about what happened in the past. I made charges and there were grounds for them. I want to know how is the Department of Agriculture going to decide whether work is necessary or not, whether inspectors are to go round to individuals and inquire and take their word as to what is necessary. Before a Vote of this kind is passed we should understand clearly how the money is going to be administered. The administration of it must be fair and above board, and such as cannot be questioned by any Deputy later. It would be better that the money should not be voted, except we have a full statement from the Minister as to its administration.

Mr. BLYTHE

All I can say is that if we were not up against some sort of special emergency I do not think the Land Commission should deal with distress at all. So far as possible, distress grants should be dealt with by the Department of Local Government and by the local authorities. The local authorities have a certain responsibility for distress, and so far as possible it is through the Local Government Department and the local authorities that any money voted for distress should be used. There were, however, certain types of useful works that the Land Commission was more fitted to undertake, and last year we allocated substantial sums to the Land Commission for those works. As I explained to the Dáil, we allocated them without having the particulars supplied that the Department of Finance would ordinarily require. We knew if we demanded those particulars that there would be delay in the expenditure of the money. In certain areas there was keen distress, and in other areas not so much. In any case, there was real distress, and we felt that we had to give a sort of general sanction. Although schedules were submitted, there was not any particular explanation demanded of the items. In the same way the Land Commission had to get hurriedly to work and simply to get the money spent. There is no doubt that in view of the keen distress that prevailed, owing to the fuel famine and other circumstances, work had to be very hurriedly done. In the circumstances that exist now, wherever money is allocated to the Land Commission, beyond the money to complete works left uncompleted, schemes will have to be put up in a much more detailed manner than heretofore. I would say that my view will favour the spending of the money by the Department of Local Government, rather than through the Land Commission, where that can be satisfactorily done.

Mr. BAXTER

Can I take it that it is the intention of the Minister, when the uncompleted works are finished, that the balance of the money will be spent through the local authorities?

Mr. BLYTHE

I do not go so far as that, but I must say that my mind inclines in that direction.

Mr. BAXTER

If the Minister will not go as far as that, if he does not want to run the risk of such a clamour as we had before, as to people allocating the amount of money that is to be spent in a particular district, he should make up his mind at once as to the way in which this money is to be spent, and not allow that decision to be changed by any clamour from any party. If he does not do that, I warn him that he will run the risk of having the same sort of thing happening as happened before, and that would not be pleasant.

Mr. BLYTHE

Any request from the Land Commission for allocation of money in future will have to be supported by complete reports and documents as to the necessity and the utility of the work, and the circumstances of the district. There will have to be an examination that was not demanded last year because of urgency.

Question put and agreed to.