I move the Second Reading of this Bill. It is a very short measure, and the explanation of it lies on the surface. It is simply to allow for such mutual assistance to be rendered between electrical undertakings as to enable these undertakings to meet the estimated normal demand until such period as power from the River Shannon be available. The object of the Bill is to save undertakers the expenditure of a certain amount of money on new plant. which plant would, if erected, be rendered useless four or five years hence. Perhaps I might take one example. The matter arises very acutely here where, if you take the normal growth in the way of demand for electricity in, say, Pembroke, Rathmines and Dublin, it is estimated that while some of the undertakings—notably the Dublin, United Tramways—would have a certain surplus of electricity for sale, they would be prevented from selling their supply to the others, or some of the others, who would have to put in additional plant. That additional plant might, in the city of Dublin alone, involve an expenditure of £40,000 or £50,000. That expenditure might, in a few years, be found to have been useless. The principle of the measure has been agreed upon. I cannot say the same for the details, but the details can afterwards be subjected to amendment on the Committee Stage.
DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - ELECTRICITY SUPPLY (SPECIAL POWERS) BILL, 1925—SECOND STAGE.
The Minister, in my opinion, has not given us enough details. This Bill is evidently intended to give facilities to electricity undertakings to afford mutual assistance in giving a supply of electricity in view of the Shannon scheme. I presume that all new consumers ought to be connected up, as far as practicable, with the existing distribution in a manner that will afterwards fall into line with the Shannon scheme. The difficulties ahead in the Shannon scheme will be very much increased if you have a number of new consumers with currents of all sorts and conditions—direct currents of various voltages, alternating currents of many phases. The confusion is bad enough at present. It has caused immense trouble in England, and I think it would be really worse in Ireland. But there is one point that is more important still. This Bill will wipe out, at one stroke, the protection afforded the various undertakings by their Provisional Orders and Acts of Parliament. It was on the security afforded by the various Acts of Parliament of the supply undertakings that money, both public and private, was invested in them in the past. It is quite inequitable that this security should be removed. The effect could only be to discourage the investment of any capital in any undertaking in this country.
Several unauthorised undertakings have been considering the advisability of seeking statutory powers, but I fail to see that that would be of any value to them if the security originally given is removed, as it will be removed, by this Bill. I would suggest to the Minister one or two points which if dealt with would be very acceptable to the people of this country who have in the past contributed to electrical development. I would suggest that he include in the Bill a provision to continue to authorised undertakings the security which they enjoy under the existing legislation; that he encourage the taking of statutory authorisation by undertakings at present working without such authorisation; that he encourage and assist existing undertakings to extend their present distribution, discourage the multiplicity of systems of distribution, and give no facilities to new generating stations to give supplies in areas in which there is a supply already available; that he encourage the inter-connection of existing net-works by stipulating that all supplies given to consumers from stations not already giving a public supply shall be given only through the medium of an undertaking which is already giving a public supply. Thirty years or more ago, when electricity had begun to come into general use, it was thought advisable to give competitive powers in the same area, in order that the price might thus be kept down. It was thought that the competition created would reduce the price to the consumer. That was thirty years ago. The result, as proved by experience, has been exactly the opposite. It is quite plain that if there are two or more distribution net-works laid down in one area the consumer must eventually pay for the extra net-works. The Minister has ample powers to look after the consumer's interest, as he can fix the maximum price.
Will the Deputy apply that argument to shops and works and other businesses?
I apply it only to the matter under discussion.
I find myself in some difficulty in replying to Deputy Myles, because I find myself in agreement with what he has stated, except on one or two small points. He speaks of confusion in England at the moment, with regard to the difference in various matters as between certain electricity undertakings. He states that the confusion would be still worse in Ireland, or that it is actually worse. I do not think that it is by any means as bad, or likely to be as bad, even relative to the size of the two countries and the use of electricity in both. I do think that we are lucky to have a National scheme, like the Shannon scheme, coming along thus early, so as to prevent whatever elements of confusion there may be increasing.
Deputy Myles has, in a series of suggestions, really put forward certain principles, with which I felt, as I listened to them, in complete agreement. As far as I know, the Bill runs very much on those lines. The principle of the Bill is to prevent new plant being installed, and to allow undertakings which have a surplus to deliver to undertakings which require that surplus and can use it. If there are undertakings which do not require statutory powers, and that set up in the ordinary way, of course they are exempt from control. But, obviously, if the principle of this be followed to any large extent, if we are even to proceed on the logical lines that the Bill lays down, if any would-be authorised undertaking seeks to come along in an area in which there is at present an authorised undertaking, and where consumers of both would eventually be supplied from the Shannon scheme, it will be our endeavour to prevent useless expenditure of money, and consequently to see that new consumers will be, if at all possible, supplied from the older undertaking.
Might I ask the Minister what is his idea in this scheme dealing with existing undertakings where the voltage of the supply is different from what the Shannon scheme will require? Take, for instance, where there is direct current or alternative current of different phases from what the Shannon scheme would require?
These are matters which will all be subject to adjustment later on, when arrangements in connection with the supply and distribution of the Shannon current are being made. This Bill has nothing whatever to do with these matters. It does not seek to interfere with them. This Bill has one simple object, as I have already explained, and there is no intention, and I doubt if there is even power under the Bill, to interfere with any existing undertaking if it can meet the present demand.
Under this Bill?
Yes; under this Bill. This is a Bill the requirements of which, if I had been allowed to do so, I would have provided for in certain amendments to the Shannon Bill. But I was told they were outside the scope of the Bill. This Bill is really in answer to a demand made. The question is more acute here in Dublin, and the urgency was pressed upon us by certain Dublin undertakings. It is entirely to the benefit of those undertakings. They have all agreed that eventually their consumers can be supplied from the Shannon, and that it is desirable now to prevent the expenditure of money in a useless way. There is no intention in this Bill of doing any harm to existing undertakings, where these can supply what is required, but the aim is to prevent the needless expenditure of money. The matters to which the Deputy referred are matters which must be adjusted in the Organisation Bill, or the Second Bill, dealing with the Shannon. They do not arise on this Bill at all.