Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 21 Apr 1926

Vol. 15 No. 2

CUSTOMS RESOLUTIONS. - RESOLUTION No. 9.—WIRELESS TELEGRAPHY.

Mr. BLYTHE

I move:—

(1) That a Customs duty of an amount equal to thirty-three and one-third per cent. of the value of the article shall be charged, levied, and paid on all apparatus for the transmission and reception, or the transmission only or the reception only, of messages or other communications by wireless telegraphy, whether such apparatus is completely or partially manufactured, and on all component parts and accessories (including cases, cabinets, and other containers) of such apparatus, whether such parts and accessories are completely or partially manufactured, imported into Saorstát Eireann on or after the 22nd day of April, 1926.

(2) That the duty mentioned in this Resolution shall be charged and levied in lieu and stead of any other customs duty which might otherwise be chargeable on any such article.

(3) That whenever it is proved to the satisfaction of the Revenue Commissioners that any article capable of use as a component part or an accessory of any such apparatus as aforesaid is imported for use or has been or is being used for some other purpose, the Revenue Commissioners shall, subject to such conditions (if any) as they think fit to impose, either (as the case may require) allow the article to be imported without payment of the duty mentioned in this Resolution or repay any such duty paid on importation.

(4) That in this Resolution the expression "wireless telegraphy" means and includes any system of communication by an apparatus for transmitting or receiving messages or other communications by means of signals produced electrically, and transmitted without the aid of a wire connecting the points from and at which such messages or other communications are sent or received.

This resolution imposes a tax on wireless apparatus. As I explained, we are satisfied, as the State has taken hold of wireless as a means for the entertainment or education of the people, that there will be undoubtedly a feeling that there is an obligation on the State to give as many of the citizens as is reasonably practicable a means of listening-in to wireless performances on the cheaper classes of sets which the ordinary person can afford. On the other hand I have indicated that we are rather against the idea of charging £1 all round as a licence fee for wireless sets. It may be true that a licence fee of £1 means less than a penny per night, and that is a very small charge for any sort of programme, but there is the fact that £1 is a large sum to a great many people who desire to listen-in. It is a very big sum compared with the prices of the cheap wireless sets, and there would be a feeling that it is too high a sum having regard to the licence fees in the adjoining countries. Generally it is felt that we ought to have in the case of crystal sets a fee of 10/-. As I say, we believe that ultimately, probably the collection would be facilitated and cheapened by a lower fee. It is very difficult to come to any form of conclusion about the cost of wireless broadcasting, but it is certainly felt that for some time and until there has been a great growth in licence fees, the licence fees will not provide the cost of running a station. On the other hand, we feel that this is a method by which an additional sum can be obtained and the existence of which can be taken into account when we are deciding what is to be done in the matter of wireless broadcasting. It is estimated that it should bring in about £20,000 a year. There is just one point in regard to paragraph 2 of the Resolution. That is meant to deal with those articles which come along containing cabinets and other contrivances that would make them liable to the furniture duty. We want to make it clear that they are not liable to the furniture duty and this new duty in addition.

Major COOPER

I want to ask the Minister a few questions in regard to this duty. The first is what will be the position of those people who have already paid £1 licence fee in respect of crystal sets? Will they be entitled to a refund? The second is how much is the differentiation in favour of crystal sets going to cost from the point of view of inspection and collection? When I brought up the question, about three months ago, of allowing a lower rate in respect of crystal sets the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs expressed the opinion that it was quite impossible owing to the amount of inspection which would be necessary. I am glad the Government have reconsidered the matter, but I think that we should have some explanation of their new attitude. I presume it was not adopted without consultation with the Post Office.

Mr. BLYTHE

The differentiation was adopted after careful consideration and on the recommendation of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. I think the conclusion finally arrived at was that whatever cost in the way of inspection and costs of enforcing might arise from the differentiation, greater costs would arise because people would feel that £1 was too high for a crystal set and would probably take risks. As to the user of the crystal set who paid £1, the only thing we can do for him is that he will have to pay only 10/- next time.

Mr. BAXTER

I want to say a word on this resolution, though perhaps what I want to say might be said at another time, at least in part, if we were not asked now to pass this resolution imposing a duty of 33? per cent. of its value on wireless apparatus. The apparent policy in regard to broadcasting now is that certain parts of the country are to be served by wireless stations and that certain other parts cannot be served by these stations. If citizens in certain parts of the country want to have a service from these stations they have to procure much more costly wireless sets than a resident in Dublin or its vicinity or a resident in Cork and the immediate vicinity. A resident in my constituency or in constituencies in the West of Ireland, will have to pay £30 or £40 for a wireless set in order to get any service from these stations. He would have to pay £25 at least, and up to £40, from my information. I am not an authority on it. Does the Minister consider that while he pursues that policy, that tends only to serve a certain number of the citizens, that other people in outlying districts in order to get any service whatever, will have to pay for a much more costly instrument to start with, and pay a tax on that instrument equivalent to what the individual will have to pay who can procure an instrument at one-twentieth of the cost? I do not think the policy of the Minister in this respect can be favourably commented on at all, and I shall have some more to say at a later stage. I want to ask if the Minister considered this aspect of the case when it was decided to impose this tax?

MINISTER for POSTS and TELEGRAPHS (Mr. J.J. Walsh)

I think the resolution rather aims at solving the difficulties to which the Deputy draws attention. It provides the Department with these necessary funds for extension and also provides against a very serious loss which would certainly accrue for some time to come. On a recent occasion here it was explained that every effort would be made to extend equal facilities—equal as far as equality can go—to the various parts of the country, and steps are being taken to realise that hope. I feel with Deputy Baxter that we cannot place country districts, no matter how far removed, in a favourable position in regard to the cost of broadcasting sets, but beyond the fact that the provision of this £20,000 or £30,000, provided for in this resolution, is a step in that direction, I do not think the question arises here.

Professor THRIFT

I am very glad of the Minister's proposal to reduce the licence for crystal sets to 10/-, but I regret this resolution very much. The way it strikes me in the first place, as far as the crystal set user is concerned, is that he is taking away 10/- with one hand and bringing it back with another. If the crystal set user wants to get the advantage of the 10/- licence he will probably have to pay 30/- for his outfit, and he has got to pay a tax of 33? per cent. on that. That is the 10/- taken back straight away. As far as the crystal set user is concerned this 33? per cent. duty is not going to do him any good, even though there is a reduction of 10/- in the licence. As far as the country user is concerned, what Deputy Baxter has stated is quite true. It will be a further handicap on the likelihood of extending the advantages of broadcasting and establishing a desire for broadcasting amongst users in the country districts. It will be a very long time, indeed, before any broadcasting service is able to put up enough stations to supply country people with the advantages of wireless.

I am one of those who take the optimistic view that very quickly the advantages that will arise from wireless for country people will be so much appreciated that the revenue from licences alone will be sufficient to enable the State to meet all expenses. It is a great pity that we should now throw this handicap on the people in the country. They should have every opportunity of taking advantage of the broadcasting service. I think there are great advantages to be derived from broadcasting, particularly in country districts.

From the point of view of the desire to make broadcasting a success I think this resolution is a mistake. From the much more important point of view— the one with which I am more immediately concerned—of scientific instruments in general, I think the resolution is also a mistake. We might conceive that it is going to lead to very great difficulties. Any institution that wants to teach experiments in physics, for instance, in so far as it is concerned with the principles of broadcasting, will have difficulty in getting instruments that can be used for broadcasting either in the way of reception or transmission. No doubt there is a clause in the resolution which indicates that if it can be proved the instruments are used for some purpose other than reception or transmission there may not be much difficulty in regard to the duty. It will be difficult to put that into practice, and schools and colleges will have to pay more for certain apparatus that comes very largely into use in connection with wireless reception and transmission.

I think this resolution is a mistake. For the sake of the revenue that will be got from it for the next year it is not worth while. It would be much better to run the broadcasting service at a loss, not for a very long time but for a comparatively short time. I believe it will tend to complicate and perhaps spoil the whole broadcasting service if we put on this additional duty, and it will complicate our work in connection with science and educational and scientific development generally. I have no doubt the Minister is determined to go on with it. I regret the resolution very much indeed. On the other hand, I welcome the reduction of the fee because I do feel that the benefits of broadcasting ought to be made available to as large a section of the population as possible.

Mr. NORTON

The case made by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs for the imposition of this duty was that it would provide a means for the carrying out of inspections. At the present time no cost is involved in the carrying out of inspections.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

It is largely for the purposes of development.

Mr. NORTON

The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is employing postmen to report the names of people who have aerials. That is a wrong policy altogether; it is a policy fundamentally wrong, inasmuch as it alters the relationship which should exist between the postman delivering letters and the people to whom he is delivering. Postmen are at present being employed as policemen in connection with this work; they are engaged to spy on the people in whose service they are. I think the Minister, when he is introducing a Bill dealing with broadcasting and the payment of licences, should make arrangements to exempt postmen from having to play the part of policemen or act as spies on the people to whom they are delivering letters.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

If I understand Deputy Baxter's contention properly, it is that while a farmer would not be stopped from getting in a broadcasting receiver for the difference between forty shillings and thirty shillings—thirty shillings without the duty and ten shillings extra as duty—at the present moment he has no option but to pay £15 or £20 for a valve set. The Minister's contention is that funds must be provided for development purposes. Obviously the purchase of a valve set is out of the question for the majority of farmers; there are exceptions, of course, and you will have a limited number of farmers who are in a position to purchase valve sets. The crystal set, which is the cheapest set, is capable of receiving up to a radius of twenty miles from the station, and in that case crystal sets would not be suitable for the remote districts of the Saorstát.

If we are to tap the areas that Deputy Baxter and I want tapped, it is a question of having more transmission stations, and we will need a fund for such development. Is this method that is suggested the most suitable for establishing a fund for development so that new stations can be erected and people in remote districts will be able to listen-in on cheap crystal sets? That is the important question. The present difficulty is that people living in remote districts must have a valve set if they desire to listen-in to Dublin. The average farmer would not mind very much the difference between thirty shillings and forty shillings when buying a set; but he would object to paying £15 for a valve set. If you are to get over that difficulty you must have new re-laying stations. To erect them will cost money, and this method provides for the beginning of a fund which will enable further stations to be established. Then crystals sets, which are not appreciably affected by this duty, will be available for the poorer districts.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I am afraid the Minister for Lands and Agriculture is not fully conversant with the question of wireless.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

I am not.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

Neither am I, but I think I know a little more about it than the Minister. As I understand the matter, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs contemplated establishing three wireless stations—one at Dublin, one at Cork and one at Galway. As far as I am aware, there is no likelihood that these stations would be able to send out waves strong enough to be received by a crystal set at any distance further away than fifty or sixty miles.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

Twenty miles.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

There is an alternative. You could establish a high-power station in Dublin which would cover 70 or 80 miles of a radius.

Mr. T. O'CONNELL

Why not establish a high-power station at Athlone?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

A high-power station would facilitate the reception by crystal sets at a big distance. As far as present arrangements are concerned, Deputy Baxter's arguments are perfectly valid.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

Does not this method provide a fund?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

You are taking away from the fund by reducing the tax on the crystal sets. You are taxing the country man and facilitating the city man.

Mr. GOREY

That is always the way; they cannot get away from it.

Professor THRIFT

The farmer again!

Mr. HEFFERNAN

Deputy Baxter's argument is quite valid, unless the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs can show that he is contemplating the establishment of stations at different places in the country, so that crystal sets can be used by everybody.

Mr. BLYTHE

If I was not afraid that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs would use it unfairly against me, I would say that I think the State, having taken over control of broad. casting, will ultimately have to make broadcasting available for crystal set users everywhere. I would not like the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to use that unfairly. There is a good deal to be said on this question of a high-power station, although I understand that the Daventry station gave disappointing results as to the radius at which it reached crystal holders. I heard certain reports about Daventry which led me to believe that we should go ahead with a high-power station like Daventry somewhere in the centre of the country; but later things that I heard indicate that the range of Daventry, as far as crystal sets were concerned, was not as great as at first reported. If there is an advance made in wireless telegraphy which would make it possible, even by an expensive high-power station, to reach crystal set holders over the larger portion of the Saorstát, then I think that we ought certainly to provide such a station. In any case, I think we ought to develop in this matter. I am not so keen on making this particular thing a charge on the general taxpayer so far as development is concerned. I feel that some of the revenue necessary for it should come out of broadcasting itself. I believe that the difference between our attitude, as it were, and the attitude that perhaps Deputy Baxter indicated was that his does not lead to any change except the continuance of the present position. We propose to make a charge and to have a development fund.

Mr. BAXTER

The Minister for Lands and Agriculture should understand that this resolution means 33 1-3 per cent. on the whole article. That is more than ten shillings.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

I took the price to be 30s.

Mr. BAXTER

It will be more than ten shillings is the price of the article. The price is much more than 30s. The broadcasting policy at the present time is such that it is being run at a loss to the State, and the State as a whole has to bear the loss. The money that the State has to pay out benefits a few favoured citizens in Dublin and Cork, who alone are to have the advantages because in the remote parts of the country very few can afford to pay £25 at least, and anything up to £40 for a receiving set. Now, Dublin is to get the benefit and then Cork.

Mr. GOREY

Who has any right to it but the citizens of Cork and Dublin?

Mr. A. BYRNE

Especially Cork.

Mr. BAXTER

We feel in this matter, without going to extremes at all, that it is very inequitable that this loss borne by the State should be borne in the interests of certain citizens only. If there is to be a broadcasting policy it should be such that the citizens in Connemara will have the same opportunity of availing of the services of a receiving set as the citizens of Dublin —the very same. Now that is not your policy at present. Dublin first and Cork next!

Mr. GOREY

Oh, no.

Mr. A. BYRNE

Cork first.

Mr. BAXTER

While this goes on the Exchequer contributes a certain sum. If the citizens in remote districts want to get in receiving sets they have to pay not only £25 for the set but a duty of 33? per cent. on that. You say it is necessary to create a fund. Let those people assist in creating a fund. Later on is your policy to be extended so that other people around will be in a position to put in sets that will cost what the crystal sets cost to-day?

That is very unfair, and it will call for a good deal of criticism from the majority of people. If the policy of the Ministry is that a station is to be erected in Cork I suppose that when Cork is satisfied the rest of the country can wait. I suggest to the Ministry that if their attitude in this matter is as the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs himself understands it, that only two stations are to be erected, if these two stations are to be availed of to any considerable extent by people in outlying districts, they must purchase costly sets. I think if your policy is against these people in one matter it should not be against them in both things, and I suggest that some consideration should be given them in the matter of this tax on broadcasting sets.

Major COOPER

I have the greatest respect for Deputy Baxter, and I am rejoiced to find that he is against this resolution. But I am afraid that he is in conflict not only with the laws of the Minister for Finance, but also in conflict with the natural laws when he talks about getting as good reception in Connemara as in Dublin. I believe it is established that the people in mountainous districts cannot get as good reception as might be got, say, in Dublin. To get a good reception they would need a station for practically every house. It may be possible to get over these difficulties with the advance in broadcasting, but I believe that at the present time there are complaints that they cannot get the Dublin station very well in Wicklow or Wexford, because of the Dublin mountains.

That being so we want to proceed cautiously, and, above all things— there I have Deputy Baxter with me— we want to develop the wireless habit. But we shall not develop the wireless habit by making the possession of wireless sets more costly. The broadcasting station being only in operation for four months I consider that the Minister might well wait for a certain period before imposing this duty. It may be ultimately necessary, but I think it is a little early in the day now.

I want to return to my previous point as to the people who paid £1 licence duty for crystal sets. The Minister, in refusing to give the benefit of this reduction to the people who have already got their licences, is putting a premium on law breaking. The people who obeyed the law and paid their licence duty of £1 on 1st January will get no refund. I do not know whether this becomes law under the Finance Bill or the Broadcasting Bill, but as soon as it becomes law those who have crystal sets will pay the 10/- licence. That is to say, those people who have not taken out their licences but defied the authority of the State in so far as the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs represents the State—and in this matter he does—will have a financial advantage of ten shillings over the people who did their duty and backed up the Government. I strongly urge the Minister to see whether some refund cannot be given.

Mr. BLYTHE

Perhaps a two years licence.

Major COOPER

I would accept that.

Mr. WALSH

It would be only fair that those users of crystal sets who have paid the licence duty of £1 since the beginning of the financial year for this purpose, ought get full value, otherwise two years. I do not see any difficulty there, and I do not see any point in the alteration consequent on the reduction of the crystal licence. Deputy Baxter is insistent that the State ought to extend wireless facilities to the country generally. Nobody quarrels with that. As a matter of fact, I have repeatedly stated that every step is being taken to expedite that idea. It will take some time to erect a series of wireless stations; even if we should not proceed with the chain of small stations which we had originally in mind, but on the contrary instal a high-power station like Daventry, that also will take time to consider. I want to say that there is no question of trying to differentiate as between the residents of Dublin and the residents of Connemara in this matter. We regard it as vital to the progress of education and enlightenment in the country to build up this broadcasting chain as quickly as possible. We have lost no time and we are losing no time, but if you want to place a real impediment in the way of progress you will deprive the Post Office of the necessary funds, you will place a charge on the general fund, and you will raise a cry in the country from those who have not any great sympathy with broadcasting. These people who talked so much during the last few months about economies——

Mr. BAXTER

Might I say that when I said a reduction in the tax I was not considering the abolition of the tax? I am considering a reduction in the tax on people in outlying districts who will have to procure costly sets to obtain the use of the station at all, not the crystal set users in Dublin whom we are subsidising.

Mr. WALSH

When the development has taken full effect, as we hope it will, within the next twelve months or thereabouts, the opportunity for the users of crystal sets will be quite as great in the country districts as in Dublin and there will not be any more necessity for the purchase of a valve set.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

Would not that only be in the case of a high-power station like Daventry? Would not that be the only case in which a crystal set would be useful in the country?

Mr. WALSH

No. It is possible pretty well to replace the situation in regard to the utilisation of crystal sets by the duplication of stations. It may not be quite as effective as the installation of a station of the Daventry type, but it will be very much cheaper. Either one or other of these programmes will be persevered with, and I put it to the House that it is the duty of the people who are getting the benefit of broadcasting to pay the piper.

Mr. P. HOGAN (Clare)

We cannot hear him.

Mr. WALSH

It is their duty to meet the cost. Even as a result of this motion, broadcasting will be run at a loss, and I hope, when the loss is shown later, that these advocates of expenditure will face the situation.

Professor THRIFT

I do not altogether hold with Deputy Baxter with regard to the cost of a valve apparatus. I think it can be got in almost any part of the country at a figure considerably less than that which he has mentioned. A valve set sufficient to enable you to hear Dublin or Belfast can be bought in almost any part of the country for under £10, I should say. I rose for the reason that there seemed to be an underlying wrong opinion both in what the Minister for Lands and Agriculture and the Minister for Finance said. I think that they are both approaching this matter from a wrong point of view. They seem to be contemplating the preparation of a fund in order to prepare stations. I think that that is looking at it from a wrong angle.

You want to arrange it so that when you put a station in a particular district, in order to feed that district, the revenue from that district shall pay the expense of running the station and provide a proper sinking fund in order to meet the cost of the station. If you approach the question with the idea of obtaining the money first and then putting up the station it will be a long time indeed before you meet the requirements of the country. But when you consider whether you can put up a relay station, such as the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has been talking about, with only the number of licence fees that you may draw from that district to provide you with funds to pay current expenses and to provide a proper reserve fund, quite a small relay station would be necessary, and I do not think there would be such a long delay at all. I object to the resolution principally because of the delay in the development of wireless reception and the benefits that will come from it to the farmer, and because it does not tend to encourage them as we want to encourage them.

Mr. BLYTHE

I think a slight misunderstanding has arisen. When we talked of a fund we were not really thinking of a capital fund but of a fund to meet current expenditure. I think anywhere we start a station there will be a loss at first. For some time no station that is put up anywhere will result in sufficient licences being taken out to pay for the running of that station. Our idea is to provide £20,000 or so that may be used for the running costs of new stations, so that, as a matter of fact, this proposal will really hasten development. If we had not some fund like this we would not feel inclined to take the money out of the Exchequer in the ordinary way, but we would wait until we were sure that the loss on the stations we had would be some figure smaller, by £20,000 at any rate, than we could afford for the future. In regard to the question of the use of sets for scientific purposes, I believe it possible to insert amendments at a later stage that would make it comparatively easy for bodies like universities or other teaching institutions to get what they require. With reference to what Deputy Baxter said, I do not want to talk too much about the £30 set; it is most probable that the £30 set had already paid 33? per cent. furniture duty.

Mr. GOREY

One thing seems to have emerged from this discussion, that is, that the system that has been in operation in the Post Office for some years with regard to other matters has been carried into effect in this, and that is that the rural community should bear the whole expense, without any charge at all to the favoured few who lived in the charmed circle.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

How does that apply here?

Mr. GOREY

I will show you. The Minister for Lands and Agriculture said that a fund should be created and that it should be created by the people, or paid for by the people, who live in remote districts and who must have valve sets.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

On the contrary, what I said was that the fund should be built up and paid for by the people who use these sets at present, and ex-hypothesi they are not being used in the poorer districts for that reason.

Mr. GOREY

What I understood the Minister to say was that they should be used by the people in the rural districts and paid for by the people in the rural districts in order that a fund would be built up for future development.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE

Not at all.

Mr. GOREY

Then I am afraid I do not quite follow what the Minister means. At any rate, the whole thing resolves itself into this: that the owner of every crystal set in the neighbourhood of a power station getting an equally good service to that given to the owner of a valve set out in the rural districts is to get off with a reduction of ten shillings in the licence. Those in the rural districts, because of the distance they live from the power station, will still be obliged to get valve sets and will have to pay the old tax. The proposal, as I understand it, is that the difference between the old tax and the tax that the owner of the crystal set will have to pay, is to be set aside to create a fund to meet further developments, and to provide for additional power stations in order to enable people in the rural districts, when the power stations are extended, to be able to get a service on a crystal set. Is not that what the proposal amounts to? You want the users of valve sets to create a fund to pay for the development of wireless stations all over the country in order that people living in the rural areas may be able eventually to get a service on a crystal set. To me that seems that you want one section of the community to pay for all— the people who have had the pluck and the enterprise to buy valve sets. These are the people that you are going to ask to provide all the facilities for the rest of the community. Perhaps the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs would call that equity. I imagine that would be his idea on the matter. From the peculiar bent of his mind I would expect nothing else from him. It does not matter what the cost of the valve set is, whether it be £15, £20 or £30; the real point is the distinction made between the one set and the other. If wireless telegraphy is going to be developed, it ought to be at the national expense, and not at the expense of a few individuals.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I am afraid I cannot understand the position as between Deputy Baxter and his colleague, Deputy Gorey. Deputy Baxter started off with the assertion that it was the poor people in the rural areas, away from Dublin, who were going to pay. Now Deputy Gorey comes along with another case.

Mr. BAXTER

Did you say poor people?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Definitely, the Deputy said the poor rural community.

Mr. BAXTER

I did not say poor.

Mr. GOREY

You did not say one or the other.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The expression "rural community" is synonymous in this House with "poor" when used by Deputies on the Farmers' Benches. The poor farmer is going to pay for what?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

Deputy Baxter did not say "poor farmer."

Mr. McGILLIGAN

According to Deputy Gorey, he is going to pay for valve sets outside a twenty-mile radius of Dublin where he cannot listen-in on a crystal set. Deputy Baxter denies that, and says that the poor farmer cannot afford it. That is the dilemma that I find Deputy Gorey in. What is the position actually? A tax is proposed here. Objection has been entered by Deputy Thrift on a very reasonable ground with regard to apparatus that may be used in educational institutions, and an allowance is to be made for that. Outside that, there is a tax proposed. Deputy Baxter, as far as I can gather, wants that tax remitted.

Mr. BAXTER

Not it all.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The Deputy made the further distinction that he wants it only remitted in the outlying areas.

Mr. BAXTER

On the higher set instruments.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The Deputy said that he wanted it remitted in the outlying areas. Take the case, say, that you buy a set in Galway. Apparently your charge on that is to be increased when you bring it to Dublin or somewhere near it. Is that a reasonable suggestion seriously to be put forward: that you are going to have a tax on an article that will vary according to your position in the country?

Mr. GOREY

The Deputy did not suggest that.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The suggestion was that any set was too heavily charged at the thirty-three and a third rate. but that it is not going to be such an injustice if it is a smaller charge. That is the reasonable contention that the Deputy put forward to reduce it. The logical conclusion then is not to have it at all. If you can lessen the injustice by lessening the tax, then logically you will remove the injustice by wiping out the tax. In that event, how is broadcasting to go on?

Sitting suspended at 7 p.m. and resumed at 7.50,

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

in the Chair.

Mr. D'ALTON

Deputy Baxter's objection to this tax was apparently based on the possibility of preventing wireless being at the disposal of people in remote districts. I fear he has not examined the position clearly. I fail to see how the small farmers or tradesmen can afford to put in a valve set, especially if one considers the position of agriculture in the country for the last twelve months. I believe this duty will help to create a fund by which there will be relay stations or else a central power station which will place wireless at the disposal of the people in the remote districts in the country. We are also aware of the fact that it is quite possible that the advance made in wireless with the crystal set will make it available at a distance of four hundred and fifteen miles. I believe there is going to be an advance in wireless, and naturally it will have advanced to such a degree that those near Cork or Dublin only will not have the sole advantage, but also people in remote districts, and if Deputy Baxter has the interest of those latter people at heart, he should ask that those who are in a position to put in an expensive set should pay the tax so that the smaller people in whom he is interested would be able to make use of the crystal set which they may purchase. By creating a fund you will be able to have a central or relay station so that the crystal set will be available to the farmers or smaller people in the remote districts in Ireland. I say resolution No. 9, therefore, is going to effect what Deputy Baxter has at heart. that is the placing of wireless at the disposal of the smaller people who cannot afford to put in a valve set.

Mr. WILSON

Deputy D'Alton's argument is that this tax will eventually bring the possessor of a crystal set in distant parts of the country into contact with the broadcasting station. He said: "let the people in the country who own valve sets provide the funds to do that." That would be very good if he also said that before you started to do that the people in Dublin and Cork who have crystal sets should provide the money. The State has provided a station in Dublin and the owners of crystal sets there get services which are provided out of the common fund. Now the country people are to provide the funds which will eventually give them the same facilities.

Mr. T. O'CONNELL

Then you can sell your valve sets.

Mr. WILSON

Yes. That is not a fair proposition. If future developments brought the holder of a crystal set into communication with a station three or four hundred miles away there would not be very much to say against the resolution. It is, however, a case of "live horse and get grass." We consider that the better way would be to make the people in the neighbourhood of cities provide the funds, that is, let them pay for what they have already and afterwards, when you provide similar facilities for people in the country, they also can pay for them. Do not, however, ask them to pay for something which they may get in the future when, at the same time, dwellers in the city are getting something for nothing.

Mr. D'ALTON

May I point out that I did not say that people in the city, or those who have valve sets, should provide the fund by which crystal set facilities could be provided for people in remote districts? I said that 33? per cent. duty would help to provide funds to put wireless at the disposal of small people in the country, and also help to provide a central or relay station.

Mr. BLYTHE

I believe that if this money is provided the development of wireless will be very much more rapid than it is now.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

The Minister stated that there is an import duty charged on valve sets. Am I to understand that that is on the total value or only on the woodword? It seems unreasonable to think that a valve set would be regarded as furniture.

Mr. BLYTHE

If it it liable to the furniture tax it is charged on the full value.

Question put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 43; Níl, 27.

Tá.

• Earnán de Blaghd.
• Séamus Breathnach.
• Seoirse de Bhulbh.
• Próinsias Bulfin.
• Louis J. D'Alton.
• Máighréad Ní Choileáin Bean
• Uí Dhrisceóil.
• James Dwyer.
• Michael Egan.
• Desmond Fitzgerald.
• John Hennigan.
• Seosamh Mac a' Bhrighde.
• Donnchadh Mac Con Uladh.
• Liam Mac Cosgair.
• Seán Mac Curtáin.
• Pádraig Mac Fadáin.
• Patrick McGilligan.
• Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
• Liam Mac Sioghaird.
• Pádraig Mag Ualghairg.
• John T. Nolan.
• Peadar O hAodha.
• Seán O Bruadair.
• Risteárd O Conaill.
• Parthalán O Conchubhair.
• Máirtín O Conalláin.
• Eoghan O Dochartaigh.
• Séamus O Dóláin.
• Peadar O Dubhghaill.
• Pádraig O Dubhthaigh.
• Eamon O Dúgáin.
• Séamus O Leadáin.
• Fionán O Loingsigh.
• Risteárd O Maolchatha.
• Séamus O Murchadha.
• Pádraig O hOgáin (Gaillimh).
• Seán O Raghallaigh.
• Máirtín O Rodaigh.
• Seán O Súilleabháin.
• Andrew O'Shaughnessy.
• Mícheál O Tighearnaigh.
• Caoimhghín O hUigín.
• Seán Príomhdhall.
• Patrick W. Shaw.

Níl.

• Earnán Altún.
• Pádraig Baxter.
• John J. Cole.
• John Conlon.
• Bryan R. Cooper.
• Thomas Hennessy.
• Connor Hogan.
• Tomás Mac Eoin.
• Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha.
• Risteárd Mac Liam.
• James Sproule Myles.
• William Norton.
• Ailfrid O Broin.
• Criostóir O Broin.
• Tomás O Conaill.
• Aodh O Cúlacháin.
• Tadhg O Donnabháin.
• Mícheál O Dubhghaill.
• Seán O Duinnín.
• Donnchadh O Guaire.
• Mícheál O hIfearnáin.
• Domhnall O Muirgheasa.
• Tadhg O Murchadha.
• Pádraig O hOgáin (An Clár).
• Pádraig O hOgáin (Luimneach).
• Liam Thrift.
• Nicholas Wall.

Tellers.—Tá: Deputies Dolan and Sears. Níl: Deputies Baxter and Wilson.

Resolution declared carried.