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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 21 May 1926

Vol. 15 No. 18

ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES—IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 57—RAILWAYS.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £42,950 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1927, chun íocaíochtanna fé Acht na mBóthar Iarainn, 1924, fén Tramways and Public Companies (Ireland) Act, 1883, etc., agus chun crícheanna eile a bhaineann le hIompar in Eirinn.

That a sum not exceeding £42,950 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1927, for payments under the Railways Act, 1924, the Tramways and Public Companies (Ireland) Act, 1883, etc., and for other purposes connected with Irish Transport.

Most of the payments which fall under this Vote are absolutely and entirely governed by statute, and with one exception there can be no charge made in them. Taking them in order. Sub-head A is fixed under the Railways Act of 1924, and has, of course, to be balanced by the entire total of the Appropriations-in-Aid which is £28,000. It means that the nett sum payable, actually, is the difference between £48,688 and £28,102, the sum definitely and clearly fixed by the Railways Act as the Appropriations-in-Aid. Sub-head B deals with repayments to county councils. That, again, is pretty well explained by the footnote which states: "Under Section 63 (4) of the Railways Act, 1924, the repayments to county councils except as regards the Dublin and Blessington Steam Tramway Company ceased as from 31st day of December, 1924." The provision for the £800 is therefore a payment to the Dublin and Blessington Tramway Company.

The remainder is a provision to meet arrears. It should be explained that the arrears are arrears the fault for which is not due to the Government. The way these payments arise is that certain local authorities make payments. When the payments are made the Government repays to the local authority a certain amount not exceeding a certain percentage, so that these repayments on the part of the Government make up the actual payments that have, in the first instance, been made by the proper people. This payment of £3,468 in respect of the Cavan and Leitrim Railway falls for payment this year. As regards sub-head C—Special Railway Undertakings—this is an item which is diminishing. I had some expectation that it would have entirely disappeared from the Estimates this year. It represents a loss on the working of the three lines referred to. These lines are being worked at cost in one instance by the Cavan and Leitrim Company and in the other by the Great Southern Company. The question of the taking over of these railways by the amalgamated company is under consideration, and an attempt is being made to arrive at a decision on that point.

Sub-head D is statutory and no change can be made in respect of it. The first of these sums will disappear from the Estimates next year, and thereafter there will be an increasing drop in that Vote for the period of years as set out in the third smaller column of the sub-head. E is an item I thought might also have disappeared from the Vote this year. It does not represent a sum of £5,000 this year in addition to the £6,800 voted last year. The £6,800 voted last year was to clear up this matter entirely. This payment arises because at the time the railways were taken over and the colliery railways were being built certain people could not prove title to their lands, and the land was taken as an emergency, payments being left to be fixed afterwards. There have been certain legal delays since with regard to proving title. It is estimated, therefore, that this £5,000 will clear the debt. It is not an additional payment to the £6,800 of last year. Very little of that was expended. Item F caused some trouble here recently, I believe, on a Supplementary Estimate. It was then explained, and a certain amount of detail was given about it, though not, I find, to the satisfaction of the House at that period. This steamer plies between Sligo and Belmullet, and there had been an arrangement whereby it was worked at a certain rate and free, I think, at one time. A further arrangement was made for ending a six months' arrangement by which a certain maximum payment was to be paid on the loss of working. Thereafter, the arrangement is, the loss on working is borne by the Government. It is on a month to month basis and can be got rid of when it is thought desirable to end the service. The trouble is that Belmullet is situated away from any rail-head and there must be some communications between Belmullet and Sligo.

The whole matter came under the control of my Department recently, and it is being inquired into as to whether any economies can be effected or any service can be substituted for the steamer. There are not many trips each week; I think there is only one each way. The cargo never exceeds seventy tons from Sligo to Belmullet, and the average tonnage back runs from three tons to fifteen tons. It is mainly feeding stuffs that are taken to Belmullet, and the cargo back generally consists of shell-fish or live pigs. Two alternatives are suggested, one that there should be a steamer service from Achill Sound station. That would be expensive in itself, and would have the effect of transferring the centre of operation from Sligo to Dublin. It is not considered that that is what the people want. The other alternative would be road transport. To enter on a scheme of road transport would be very costly and would mean entirely re-building a very bad road, and the cost of maintaining in repair that road would be more than even the £1,200 now asked for. Certain inquiries, however, are being made with regard to the steamer. There are certain disadvantages. It does seem that smaller boats might do, from the point of view of cargo. There is another point as to how far in the boat can go. It has to go to Picke Pier Point. From that the stuff has to be brought to a shed, and from that it is carted along a very rough, bad road into Belmullet. I think the distance would be a mile all told. If the boat could be brought closer in it might make the service pay.

All these matters have been under consideration, but in the time it has not been possible to investigate the matter sufficiently to see whether a decision could be made. If the people in the district do not support the service better than they have done in the past it will have to be discontinued. It was put there when they had no other way of getting supplies. There are now alternatives, and in fact the people are using other methods of supply to the detriment of themselves. This was brought there for their benefit, and they can take warning that if there is not an improvement we might have a situation like that with regard to the Lucan Tramway, where the people used a particular method of transport to their undoing in the end. While we have estimated this sum to make good the deficit in working the service it is by no means established that the service is to be continued. The whole matter is under consideration, and there may be a discontinuance of the service if it is found that it cannot be worked in a more economical way, and if it does not get more support.

I would like to bring the Minister back from Belmullet, or part of the way, to sub-head C, with regard to the Arigna Station Colliery, I understand that there are two pits in Arigna, both of which were until recently producing coal. If my information is correct at present the railway is only serving one of the pits, and the other portion is not being served and has been allowed to go out of repair. I am not clear how far the Minister controls this. It was one of Lord Balfour's light railways constructed with State funds. I believe the Minister should have some say in the matter when we are asked to vote money for it to make good arrears. I do not know if the Minister can give us any information as to whether it is intended to deprive one of these two pits of the railway service formerly enjoyed, or whether in the event of traffic being forthcoming that portion of the line will be worked as it used to be.

The whole question of the Arigna collieries is the subject of investigation by a committee set up to inquire not merely into the collieries and their working but also into the question of transport. Their investigations are concluded, but I have not seen the report. The Deputy is correct in what he states, that one area is not being served. How long that will continue will depend on the result of this investigation.

If the report is not very confidential perhaps the Minister would let me see it?

Unless it is highly confidential, and would not be revealing certain matters, I would let the Deputy and members from the area around have copies of whatever it is possible to publish.

Mr. EGAN

With regard to this £2,300 which is estimated as the deficit on the Castlecomer Colliery Railway, is it estimated that there will always be a payment to keep this railway going, and to what extent will that be justified? For instance, how much coal is carried on that railway? I do not know if it is permissible under this heading to ask the Minister to tell us something about the future position of the baronially guaranteed shareholders.

The Minister, in his explanation of this Vote, touched upon Belmullet. I think it shows the value of criticism in this House that comment on the Supplementary Estimate of £2,150, when it was introduced last year, has resulted in getting it cut down to £1,200 this year, with an intimation from the Minister that he does not consider even the £1,200 justified.

It is a bad wind that blows nobody good.

I think he is right, though I was never in Belmullet. I remember that the criticism of the Supplementary Estimate last year was not confined to the £2,150 but included a steamer which was alleged or understood to be Government property. I will not say that it is an enormous sum but it added to the amount connected with the running of this service. There is also property in connection with the ownership of the steamer involved, so that if you were to make out a true balance-sheet you would have to add something for a means of conveyance not belonging to the neighbourhood. In connection with the statement the Minister made that the service is under investigation and review I would say this, in criticism, that I do not think the service was justified under the description that the Minister has given of it. I rather think it was put on, originally, to reserve to the Port of Sligo a certain amount of trade that otherwise might go to another port, and I do not know that that is exactly proper use to make of Government money.

As regards the loss on the special railways undertakings in reference to Castlecomer and Wolfhill, some of them involving an enormous charge, I think we should take into consideration whether lines of that sort are really economic and whether the services would not be better and more efficiently conducted by other means. I would not like to make any definite statement upon the subject but I simply throw out to the Minister, for his consideration, whether the game is worth the candle or not and whether there is any justification for continuing to spend money on the management of concerns for particular interests, and whether the working of these concerns would not be better done in other ways than by the expenditure of Government money.

In case Deputy Hewat has any false hopes of deriving advantage from the sale of Belmullet steamer, I may tell him that I have known that steamer for over twenty years. It is about the same age as I am, and it is in worse repair or condition, I should say, than I am. We are not going to get a large appropriation-in-aid out of that.

Mr. EGAN

Under sub-head E the sum of £5,400 is down for the Castlecomer Railway for payment for land acquired originally in the construction of the line. I should like to know if that brings our liability to an end.

I will take the last point first. The sum of £5,000, it is hoped, will end all liabilities with regard to the acquisition of this land. Of course that was done before our time in a period of emergency; it was done at a time when the railways were being built. That forms something of an answer to Deputy Hewat, too. These lines would never have been built if they were considered on the basis of whether their receipts would have paid for the cost. I deprecate all attempts to run down Government property, such as the Tartar and Government railways. There will have to be an attempt made some day to get rid of these things and you are going to prejudice a proper exchange if an unduly pessimistic view is now taken in regard to their sale possibilities.

I am afraid the prospective buyer will look for a balance sheet.

It is quite obvious that a balance sheet will be asked for, but a purchaser will consider carefully what is the prospect of revenue being derived from the Castlecomer or other railways.

Does the Minister take into consideration the amount of money that is being saved to the county council by reason of the use of the colliery railway lines? Has he taken into consideration the amount of coal that is carried over those lines and has he considered what it would cost the rate-payers for the upkeep of roads if the lines were not there?

Does the Minister seriously suggest that the speeches made in the Dáil add to or detract from the value of anything—any Government property whatever?

I was putting it in the form that I assumed they did, and I suggested that statements of the sort might prejudice sales in the future. As regards baronially guaranteed lines, there was a sum of money set aside under the Railways Act. That sum has been paid. It represents the full amount of the guaranteed dividend. It was not ear-marked for that purpose but it has been paid. In fact the shareholders on the old baronially guaranteed lines received dividends this year. The moneys were paid over as before, but the money is the same. The general fund of the company is no longer ear-marked for the special purposes of that dividend.

I cannot say what is the future of the Castlecomer railways. They are very much at the point of decision at the moment but it is hoped that these railways will be absorbed or amalgamated with the general company. With regard to the Belmullet service, I would say: "Think of the people of Belmullet." Are you going to leave them stranded, with no way of getting in touch with such a centre of activity as Sligo?

We will try to arrange for a few boats there.

Vote put and agreed to Progress ordered to be reported, the Committee to sit again on Tuesday.

The Dáil went out of Committee. Progress reported.
The Dáil adjourned at 3.55 p.m. until Tuesday, 25th May, at 3 o'clock.
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