Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 1 Jun 1926

Vol. 16 No. 1

ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES. - VOTE 55—ADVANCES TO AGRICULTURAL CREDIT SOCIETIES.

The PRESIDENT

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £50,000 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1927, chun Roimhíocanna d'íoc le Cumainn Chreidiúna Talmhaíochta agus chun costaisí a bhaineann leis sin d'íoc.

That a sum not exceeding £50,000 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1927, for Advances to Agricultural Credit Societies and for defraying expenses incidental thereto.

Mr. HOGAN

A sum of £25,000 has already been voted on account. The sum of £50,000 that is now asked makes a total of £75,000. I am glad to see that this credit society scheme has definitely succeeded, and is definitely spreading. I believe that every penny of the £75,000 to be provided this year will be absorbed, and absorbed by the areas needing it most. The State advances to the credit societies in existence amount to £33,687.

Mr. JOHNSON

Is that out of the current year's vote?

Mr. HOGAN

No, since the beginning.

Mr. JOHNSON

Could the Minister tell us what was the amount advanced out of the 1925-26 Vote—out of the sum of £100,000?

Mr. HOGAN

About £31,000. The credit societies were criticised very strongly at first, and people announced that they would die before they would have them. Every attempt was made to get loans direct. Naturally that is the easiest and most satisfactory way for the borrower, whatever about the State. Everyone is anxious—we are all individualistic in this country especially when it comes to a question of credit—to get money direct, and for a long time the credit societies stopped dead because the people hoped that the Government would relent and that the money would be advanced in a way that was regarded by possible borrowers as more satisfactory. As it became quite plain that we intended to stick to the idea of credit societies, and that the people had to make use of this very reasonable scheme which we propounded, then the credit societies began gradually to spread, and to spread in the areas where they were needed most, with one exception, the County Clare. There has not been a society established there yet. I hope there will be soon. Anyway, up to the 18th May last the number of credit societies established was twenty-one and the total advances made by the State amounted to £33,687; that is to say, the cash transactions of these societies would be about £50,000 or very near the amount the Northern Government has put out. I believe myself that the whole sum which I am asking for will be absorbed this year. The first State advance made to any society was issued on 3rd October last and progress has since been steady. The preceding period from May to October, entailed considerable propaganda work on the part of the organisers. The following is a list of the societies, showing the State advances made to them and the corresponding local deposits:

County Cavan—Killinagh Credit Society, State advances, £369; deposits, £203 14s. od. Scrabby Co-operative Society, State advances, £330; deposits, £165. These are the only two societies formed in Cavan up to the present, but I think there will soon be more. County Donegal— Tullynaught agricultural bank, State advances. £503; deposits, £335 10s. County Kerry—Ballymacelligott co-operative credit society, State advances, £5,317; deposits, £2,658 10s.; Gneeveguilla co-operative credit society, State advances, £720; deposits, £360. Milltown and Ballyhar agricultural bank, State advances, £1,491 10s.; deposits, £759. Tralee credit society, State advances, £7,416; deposits, £3,708. In Leitrim there are six societies. Leitrim is a very poor county and to my mind it is particularly suitable for credits of this sort, or to put it the other way, credits of this sort are particularly suitable for conditions in Leitrim. Carrigallen credit society, State advances, £1,536: deposits, £768. Cloonmorris, State advances, £1,186; deposits, £790 18s. 10d. Cornageeha credit society, State advances, £204; deposits, £102. Eslin Bridge credit society, State advances, £988; deposits, £494. Gorvagh, State advances, £876; deposits, £584, and Kiltoghert credit society, State advances, £400; deposits, £200.

These are all new societies. There has been practically £3,000 put up in deposits in Co. Leitrim to over £6,000 given by the State. Leitrim is a poor county and these are all small societies. A point I want to stress is that this money has in the main been put up by farmers, small farmers, and the same applies to other counties also.

Mr. RODDY

Have all these societies been organised since the outbreak of the fluke?

Mr. HOGAN

There was one society, I think, in Carrigallen, but I cannot pick out for you now one or two old societies that may have been established. There may have been three of them established, but you may take it that the bulk of the deposits are all new and have been put in since the fluke outbreak. There may have been one or two of the old societies in Leitrim, but there are six societies there now. I think Carrigallen was in existence, but if it was, there was £768 put in in deposits since, and the State has made an advance of £1,536. County Limerick seems to be very much in love with this particular scheme, though it is not by any means a poor county. There are five societies in that county, only with two of which, strange enough, we have had some trouble—with the Ballyhahill society and the Glin society. I think they are working all right now. They got over £8,000 from the State, and they put in £4,000 or £5,000 in deposits. In Co. Longford there is one at Killoe; in County Louth, one at Cooley, and in County Monaghan there is a society at Ballynode. Societies are being formed at Listowel, and Newtownsandes, County Kerry; Owenmore, Co. Sligo; and Clare Island, County Galway. This will bring the total to 25.

I believe every penny that has been voted will be absorbed by the end of the year for this purpose, and two years after the event I am absolutely satisfied that it is the right way to give credit, especially in the really poorer areas. These societies are being organised by the I.A.O.S., and I impressed on that society the necessity for the very closest supervision. I believe the closest supervision is being kept on the operations and on the personnel of the societies. It is obvious to anyone who knows the country that there could be a certain amount of wrangling in connection with these societies. Certain attempts were made in that direction in one or two cases, but I have taken care to have had three or four inspections of these societies within the last few months. From the reports I have got I am satisfied with the personnel of these societies, with the committee, and with the general management of the societies. I am satisfied that the money is being lent for right purposes, that the security is good, that the whole point of view is sound, that the money is to be repaid, and that the money is used in a thrifty and economical manner. I anticipate the minimum amount of trouble from these societies, but the trouble will come undoubtedly when the money has to be collected again. It is a question that will have to be considered whether in some cases a certain amount of extra time should not be given. I think that is the scheme as originally framed, and we can readapt it as it works out, when we will see the weaknesses of the scheme so far as they will show themselves. We can then deal with any new points, and with any gaps that need to be closed. Any other things that need to be done can be done as societies are re-organised and as we see their strong points and weak points. In a word, I am satisfied with the way these societies are going on, and I hope and think they will spread.

Mr. VAUGHAN

Would the Minister say if any societies have been formed in Cork?

Mr. HOGAN

No, not in Cork.

Mr. RODDY

Is the Government still prepared to subscribe £2 for every £1 put up?

Mr. HOGAN

That still holds good.

Mr. GOREY

As far as this scheme is concerned, we never had any objection to it from the point of view of being an economical proposition, but only as regards its application to the particular purpose it is intended to serve, that is, the outbreak of fluke. We held, and hold now after one and a half years, that it would only to a small extent serve that particular purpose. In the majority of cases it has been of no benefit to the individuals or districts that needed it most. Ballymacelligott, which was mentioned by the Minister, is probably one of the most prosperous districts in Kerry. More money was lent to that society than to any other, and I suppose correspondingly more deposits were put down in that society. We would have no objection to this in normal times; it would then be good, but it does not serve the particular object we wanted one and a half years ago. It has not relieved the people who suffered most. In the majority of cases it has not reached the sufferers. What we had to say to the scheme on the last occasion we have to say to it now. Time has justified what we did say; it did these people no good. In Clare nothing has been done. Limerick has five new societies. Credit societies were needed most in West Limerick. I do not know anything in regard to Galway or Mayo; I do not know what has been done there. We hear a great deal of complaints from those places. There is no doubt the scheme is a perfectly sound one, but it has not done what the Minister said it would do; it has not relieved the position created by the fluke epidemic.

Mr. HEWAT

The Minister's explanation in regard to this Vote is very interesting. It rather leads one to think that the outlook in regard to this matter will necessarily be changed in the near future. Assuming these credit societies will progress at the rate the Minister has indicated they have so far progressed, on the basis of advancing £2 for every £1 contributed locally, it would seem that the possibilities of extension are unlimited. As the people recognise the advantage of getting £2 for £1, it may ultimately grow into a very big business. Does the Minister contemplate any such thing, or is there any limit?

Mr. HOGAN

There is a limit in the Estimate.

Mr. HEWAT

I know there is a limit in the Estimate, but judging by the progress made so far in regard to the foundation of these credit societies, it would appear the possibilities are unlimited. Does the Minister imagine that at the end of the period intended he will get all the money back? Is it not likely there will be an application for a renewal of these societies for other purposes? The societies were started in connection with the fluke disease. The proposition was then put forward that the fund was needed to meet a certain state of affairs in connection with which relief was necessary. As time progresses I think the Dáil will have to face the continuation of a similar scheme. How does the Minister expect to wind up this scheme?

Mr. COLE

I do not think I can join in the congratulations which the Minister offers to himself for having succeeded in starting 21 societies. The total number started does not represent one for each county of the Saorstát. The Minister admits that two or three of the 21 societies are old societies.

Mr. HOGAN

But they have new deposits and that is the important thing.

Mr. COLE

The amount involved is £33,000, I understand. The aim sought in establishing these societies was to meet the needs of the small farmers. This has not been done. The most of the money that was advanced by these societies was advanced to people who requested a few pounds in order that they might get a cheap loan afterwards. The societies have not catered for the small farmer who wanted money and who was in a bad position. Many of the small farmers found themselves in a difficult position; they were not even able to pay their rates. They had to borrow money at exorbitant interest; there was no other way out of it. It really meant chasing the last beast out of the field.

The last time this matter was under discussion I endeavoured to show the Minister that in lending £200 to make a total of £300, the cost to the Government would be at least £10, calculated at 5 per cent. If the Government would lend money to the farmers at 2½ per cent. and pay the other 2½ per cent. to the bank, on the £300 they would be paying only £7 10s. and the farmer would be paying the other £7 10s. All this could be done on the security of the land. That has been done in the North where the Government has advanced money to the same extent as we have advanced money. In the case of the North the money has been advanced to one county. There was practically no fluke in the Northern counties; it was only in Fermanagh that the trouble existed. I think the Government should reconsider the matter and see if they could not advance money to the farmers through the banks at a small rate of interest. That is the only way to meet the difficulty.

Mr. HOGAN

Deputy Gorey insists on being pessimistic about this thing. I never claimed that the money reached everyone who lost cattle, or that it even reached every county where cattle were lost. I do make some claims, however, in regard to these credit societies, and these claims are borne out by facts I have given. Clare is a very difficult county to organise. There was extreme opposition to these credit societies from the beginning on the part of people who thought they would prefer to get loans and grants direct. We need not shut our eyes to the fact that numbers of people wanted grants. I do not suggest that Deputy Gorey said that; but throughout the country people were hoping they would get grants, and if they did not get them they would get the next best thing, a good loan. They would get that loan individually, and no one would know anything about it. While that spirit was there, it was extremely difficult to organise these societies. This scheme has not reached Clare; it has done no good to Clare, because it did not touch on that county yet.

Mr. GOREY

Has it reached Galway?

Mr. HOGAN

No. It has not reached Galway, and there is no great need for it there. There were a number of arguments put up against these societies, and the question was asked, where were the unfortunate people to get the money? Everyone who knows the country knows well that that is all nonsense. Where there is a will there is a way, and where there is a question of putting down one pound as a deposit to secure two pounds, everyone knows it will be forthcoming. Everyone knows also that it is a guarantee of the bona fides of the matter, and that has been proved by what has happened. Take the County Leitrim. Leitrim is a far poorer county than Clare. The farmers are poorer there; the holdings are smaller, and certainly the fact that these societies were organised in such a widespread way and that the depositors were found, is a convincing and unanswerable proof that these societies could be organised in Clare if there was the same goodwill shown. In fact, things are changing there, and I have every hope that we will be able to organise societies in Clare as we have done in Leitrim.

Take Leitrim. I have a summary of the numbers registered there. The Carrigallen Society has deposits to the extent of £768. It is an old society, which has done very little business. was completely reorganised so as to come under the Department's credit schemes. Cloonmorris is an old society with a good business reputation. A State advance was made. It is one of the few cases of an old society with existing deposits. Now, the purpose for which the loans were granted was the re-stocking of the land. These are the only two old societies, and in regard to the first of them, the Carrigallen Society, the deposits are new. Now take Cornageeha Co-operative Credit Society——

Mr. GOREY

Is that in Kerry?

Mr. HOGAN

No. It is in Leitrim. I am dealing with Leitrim as a sample county. This is a new society registered on the 8th February. All the committee are farmers, and all the loans issued were for the purpose of purchasing cattle. The members are showing a keen interest in the Society's work. Eslin Bridge Society is a new society. The deposits amounted to £494 and the State advanced £988. The membership which is drawn from various localities around Mohill is made up of all farmers and in nearly all cases the loans issued by the society were for the re-stocking of farms. The committee aimed at encouraging the purchase of milch cows so as to restore the milk supply to the local creamery.

Gorvagh Society is an old society, Kiltoghert is a new society. The report of the Department was that nearly all the borrowers were farmers in and around the district, where the heavy fluke losses made the people very anxious to obtain the benefits of the scheme. I am expecting to have more societies registered in Leitrim. Surely anyone will see that if this scheme can succeed in Leitrim it should succeed elsewhere. There is, fortunately, some goodwill now and I am confident that the societies will spread. I have reports not only from the I.A.O.S. officials but from officers in the Department in reference to these societies.

Take Ballymacelligott. This is a poor district. Take the loss of cattle. A senior organiser, reporting on the work of the society, stated, "There can be no doubt that the loans which have been issued were granted with more care than could be exercised by the manager of a joint stock bank in the ordinary course of his business and on at least as good security as he would require." The society works in close touch with the local creamery committee. When the society was last reported on, its loans had in every case been made for the purchase of cattle. The committee found it necessary to refuse loans to some applicants.

I personally am quite satisfied with the progress which is being made. There are two societies in Cavan.

Mr. JOHNSON

Would the Minister give us the aggregate membership of these twenty-one societies?

Mr. HOGAN

I could not, off-hand.

Mr. GOREY

That would be very interesting.

Mr. HOGAN

Why?

Mr. GOREY

We would then know the people who had suffered losses from fluke.

Mr. HOGAN

Scrabby Co-operative Society in Cavan is a new society. With the exception of the Parish Priest, who is President, the committee is wholly composed of farmers. The society operates in an area on the border, between the counties of Cavan and Longford. The district being very poor, the State advanced £330. In Leitrim, Kerry and Donegal these societies have spread. If you take the areas into account there should be an end once and for all to all this talk that these societies could not succeed because you would not get local assistance. You can get it. We can debate whether we should extend this scheme on another Estimate. We want this money voted now for the purpose of the Credit Societies on the terms already given. While we all agree that there should be a limit, that is a question, I suggest, which could await the next Vote for Credit Societies.

Mr. HEWAT

But the Minister has no policy.

Mr. HOGAN

Oh, yes. I have.

Vote put and agreed to.

Sitting suspended at 6.40 p.m. and resumed at 7.15 p.m.,AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE in the Chair.