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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 3 Jun 1926

Vol. 16 No. 3

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 37 (CIRCUIT COURT OFFICERS.)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £49,674 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1927, chun Tuarastail agus Liúntaisí agus Costaisí Oifigeacha iomdha na Cúirte Cuarda, Bonus do Chléirigh na Coróinneach agus na Síochána agus Costaisí Ath-fhéachainte.

That a sum not exceeding £49,674 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1927, for Salaries, Allowances and Expenses of the various Circuit Court Officers, Bonus to Clerks of the Crown and Peace and Expenses of Revision.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

This Vote, like the High Court Vote, is the last of the old series, and, to a considerable extent, it is simply imposed on us by the existing law and must undergo considerable changes as soon as the Court Officers Bill comes into operation. The amount is practically the same as last year. It is worth, perhaps, drawing attention to that, though the Estimate is properly an estimate for staff, it is swelled by a sum of £2,550 (item 10, under sub-head A), being the estimated cost of one assistant circuit judge for the whole twelve months, that is £1,700, and another for six months, £850. At present there are two assistants, Mr. Piggott, K.C., in Dublin, assisting Judge Drumgoole, and Mr. Roche, K.C., in Circuit No. 5, assisting Judge Wakely. So far as we can see at present, both of these gentlemen will have to be retained for the whole year, though perhaps not in the circuits in which they are at present assisting. I find that in Donegal there are heavy arrears, mostly compensation work, and that some assistance may be necessary there to get the volume of work down to what might be regarded as normal.

On the general question as to whether there is need for an increase in the number of Circuit Judges, I have not yet formed any firm opinion. There was, of course, a great volume of work for these courts arising out of the disturbed period of the past, a great many compensation cases, for instance, and I would like a longer period of observation before coming to a firm opinion on the question of whether or not the number of Circuit Judges fixed by the Act is in fact adequate and would prove to be adequate even when the volume of work had subsided to something which could be regarded as normal. As I say, I do not want to prejudice the matter one way or another just now. We are not taking the position to the Dáil at the moment that the number fixed by the Act is inadequate. Item No. 9 under sub-head A, "Remuneration of Criers to Circuit Judges," is simply an intelligent anticipation of a charge which may have to be borne by the State, as soon as the Court Officers Bill becomes law. At present these men are not paid anything by the State. They are paid small sums by the county councils, under the old county court law. As yet we have not arrived at any definite understanding with the Department of Finance as to what they are to get. A thousand pounds would represent £125 each to eight of them. There will be one to each Circuit Judge. Probably what will be done will be to allow each judge to pick his own man—they are really more in the nature of personal servants than public officials—and to give the judge an allowance of about £125 towards retaining the man. There is a corresponding item of £500 to cover the travelling expenses of these men. It will be found in sub-head C, No. 4, That again is simply largely guesswork. Expenses of this kind were never paid before, and we can only try to approximate to what they will amount to. The figure given is about one-fifth of the corresponding figure for the judges themselves. That will be found in No. 1, sub-head C. The item of £210 under sub-head D is the salary which is prescribed under the old statute mentioned opposite the item for the gentleman in question. The work has dwindled down to nothing owing to the simplicity of modern law as against the old. But the salary has to be paid and will have to be paid until the Act is repealed. Probably then there will be a question of compensation of some kind for the abolition of the office. Under sub-head A it will be noted that the salary for the Clerk of the Crown and Peace in Dublin is on the new and more economic scale that will be paid in future to County Registrars. A vacancy in that position occurred early in 1924. The new occupant accepted the post at this salary, which represents a saving to the State of about £1,000 per annum. A similar change has taken place since this Estimate was prepared in County Kerry. The new occupant of the post there has a Civil Service salary of £850, plus bonus. That would amount to about £1,100 instead of the old salary which amounted to about £300 more than that. There will be similar reductions in every county according as the old officials retire. On the other hand, the cost of clerical assistance set out under sub-head B is bound to go up when we take over the staffs under the Court Officers Bill, not merely because the work of the Circuit Court is heavier in fact than the work of the old county court, but also because the present lump sum method is always cheaper than the stated salary method. It is sometimes rather cruelly cheap, and in fact it is because it was cruelly cheap that we are departing from it. Men were doing a great deal of work in these offices for salaries that were really not adequate remuneration at all.

They were personally employed?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

They were personally employed, in the way that the clerk of the peace got an allowance towards clerical assistance and then made his own bargain. There are twenty-seven clerks of the peace. Six of these are over the maximum age of seventy years fixed by the Court Officers Bill. One is seventy-nine, another seventy-seven, and others seventy-six, seventy-four, seventythree and seventy-two. These are over the very outside limit of seventy years of age that we have fixed by the Bill, and these will, of course, have to go. I cannot say at the moment how many of the remainder will decide to stay on and accept the new position of county registrar. Deputies know that we are holding out every possible inducement to them to remain on. With one reservation, they are guaranteed their existing salaries, and it is also made perfectly clear to them that they will be allowed to serve on to seventy years of age. When I say that there is a reservation about the guaranteeing of their existing salaries I should remind Deputies that I said on Second Reading of the Bill here, and again in the Seanad, that we set one limit to that, and that is that we are not prepared to pay to any county registrar, even though he be an existing clerk of the peace and we are anxious to retain him, a salary of more than £1,200 per annum, plus bonus, which would amount to more than £1,450. If any existing clerk of the peace is not willing to remain on and become a county registrar for that figure we just cannot avail of his services. There are some four or five whose total remuneration at present exceeds that figure. In Cork, for instance, you have an officer receiving a total remuneration of £1,881 13s. In Galway the clerk of the peace has a total remuneration of £1,646 7s. In Limerick city the officer had a total remuneration of £1,558 10s.; in Tipperary the officer has £1,650 12s., and in Donegal £1,617. Even to a clerk of the peace we are not prepared to pay salaries as high as that.

Are these made up of different sums?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Yes. I spoke of them as total remuneration rather than as salaries, because they come in under three heads really—salary as clerk of the peace, salary as local registering authority and additional salary for duties under the Electoral Acts, and then there is a cost of living bonus on the total salary. Under all heads there are some four or five who receive salaries greater than £1,450. Under the new Act, even to these experienced officers whom we are anxious to retain, we will not pay more than £1,200, with bonus, and if they will not remain on that basis we must simply let them go.

What is the remuneration of the clerk of the peace in Kildare?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

£1,220 15s.

All told?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Under all heads, yes.

I take it that these are actual salaries and not variable amounts?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

No; they are fixed but come under different heads. Sub-head A 3 deals with the remuneration of registrars. Registrars are appointed by the various Circuit Judges, and are paid at the rate of £2 per day for each day on which they are employed in court on civil business. In addition to that they receive £1 for each day they are employed in the court away from home. Two registrars, Dublin and Cork, are on a fixed salary of £500 a year, plus bonus in each case. The registrar in Cork is also an additional clerk under Section 9 of the Officers and Courts Act, 1877, and deputy registrar in bankruptcy. The salary of £500 there covers all posts. There will not be special registrars of this kind attached to the Circuit Judges under the Court Officers Bill when it becomes law. Under sub-head A 4 there is a sum of £12,000 for the salaries of process servers. That sum provides for something over 500 process servers, some of whom act for two or three districts and receive additional salary for so doing. There is the item A 8, £4,600 for official stenographers. The total number of stenographers on the recognised panel is forty-five. They reside in different parts of the country, principally in towns in which sessions are held. Travelling expenses are in that way reduced to a minimum. Stenographers are paid at the rate of two guineas a day, with 10/6 a day to cover travelling and subsistence for each day they are employed in a court held in a town situated more than thirty miles from their ordinary place of residence. They are further paid at the rate of 8d. per folio of 120 words for transcribing notes in cases in which appeals are lodged. Then there is allowance under sub-head B of £13,636. That is an allowance for clerical assistance payable to Clerks of the Crown and Peace under the Act of 1877 and the Local Registration of Title Act of 1881. The Clerk of the Crown and Peace used to pay his staff in whatever manner he pleased, and he received his allowance quarterly. This system is being abolished under the Court Officers Bill, and the County Registrars office will be staffed with civil servants on recognised service scales of salary.

Under the new procedure there will be a larger amount of reporting court proceedings. Local people are mostly employed to do this work. On the question of the staff of stenographers, has the Minister considered the matter at all on a basis of interchangeability between the courts for reporting, and whether it might not be desirable to have a central staff of stenographers to do the work? The work has been very largely increased by the new procedure. It will be a work of very considerable magnitude, and it seems to me that some arrangement might be made that would work out economically on the lines I have suggested. I think that it would work out a great deal more satisfactorily with a centralised body that could be called upon when required, that would be interchangeable and would serve in the different courts.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

When the Court Officers Bill becomes law we will review the position with regard to stenographers, and we will endeavour to arrive at the arrangement that will be administratively best and most economical. The Deputy's idea of a central staff of stenographers, interchangeable and serving all the courts, has just the weakness that it would involve travelling and subsistence allowances that would tend to swell the Vote. I do not want to prejudice our consideration of the matter, but I am not sure that the present arrangement of local men, engaged ad hoc and working under the supervision of the county registrars, is not as good an arrangement as we are likely to hit upon, having regard to travelling expenses.

I agree that that argument would probably apply to the circuit court, but what I have suggested might work in the case of the other courts. Of course we are not dealing with them now.

Vote put and agreed to.
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