Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 3 Jun 1926

Vol. 16 No. 3

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 34 (DISTRICT COURT).

MINISTER for INDUSTRY and COMMERCE

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £33,586 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1927, chun Tuarastáil agus Costaisí Breithiún den Chúirt Dúithche (An tAcht Cúirteanna Breithiúnais, 1924, Alt 74).

That a sum not exceeding £33,586 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1927, for the Salaries and Expenses of Justices of the District Court (The Courts of Justice Act, 1924, Sec. 74).

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I have nothing special to say on this Vote. I will answer any query that may be raised.

Mr. GOOD

Last year, when this Vote was under consideration, the Minister promised to inquire into the possibilities of having the Children's Court separated from the ordinary Police Court and also to separate the court in which commercial cases are heard. As I pointed out on that occasion, it is very inadvisable to bring children with their parents into the surroundings of the Police Court. When one member of the family is brought into the Police Court, for instance, for non-attendance at school, as a rule the whole family accompanies the mother. I think Deputies will agree that it is very desirable in such cases that the court to which these children are brought should not have the surroundings of a police court. The Minister pointed out that one court is set apart on a particular day for hearing these cases. That is so, but the other courts generally are functioning so that the Police Court surroundings are still there. I would impress on the Minister that it is eminently desirable in the interests of the youths that the court to which they are brought should be free from the influences to which I refer. The same fact happens in connection with what is known as the Commercial Court. A number of cases of a commercial character are dealt with in the Police Court. Typists and other persons are brought into those surroundings to prove claims, and I think that that is very undesirable. In many cases witnesses come from the other side of the Channel to deal with those claims. If possible, one would like that the court in which these cases are heard should be separate from the Police Court. I do not know whether the Minister has been able to do anything in the matter since last year, but it is desirable that something should be done in both these connections at the earliest possible moment.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

In connection with the rebuilding of the Four Courts, provision is being made for the erection there, within a few yards of the Metropolitan District Court, at Inns Quay, of a court for the civil business of the District Court, and also a court for the civil business of the Circuit Court. They will be more convenient to solicitors and barristers and will meet one aspect of the matter raised by Deputy Good. When these two new courts are ready the courthouse in Green Street will be used for criminal business only. With regard to the Children's Court, that will continue to sit in the buildings at Inns Quay. It is not thought proper to bring business of such a character into the Four Courts. I am satisfied that the conditions in which the Children's Court is now held are satisfactory. There are a separate waiting-room and a separate courtroom. There is really no reason why youthful offenders should get into contact with the adult criminal class there. In point of fact, I put it to the Deputy that they are much more likely to meet that class of person in their home streets than in the court or its precincts. The Justices and staff generally are opposed to any change on administrative grounds—accessibility of records, attendance of police witnesses, and so forth. These juvenile cases are heard in a separate private court and no adults are present, except the officials, necessary witnesses, and any relatives of the accused person who care to attend. The court opens half an hour before the court which deals with adults begins its sittings, so that the majority of those who appear in answer to summonses have left this court before the other opens. I do not think that any undesirable contact on the part of juveniles can be reasonably said to take place in connection with their appearance before the court, or while they are waiting to have their cases heard.

Mr. GOOD

If the Minister cannot put them in separate buildings, which I think is highly desirable, perhaps he could arrange to have these cases heard after the ordinary court. To have them heard half an hour before the ordinary court sits is undesirable, inasmuch as you have all the different friends and relatives of many of the accused persons waiting for the ordinary court, so that you have all the objectionable surroundings of a police court, and it is not desirable to bring children there. I admit what the Minister says as to the fact that in many cases the surroundings of the homes of many of these families contain these classes of persons, but we would like to keep them apart.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I suggest that that is being done.

Mr. GOOD

If it could be arranged to hear these cases after the ordinary cases have been disposed of that would meet my objection to some extent, because the surroundings of the police court would, in some degree, disappear.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

the senior District Justice is very anxious to meet the point of view underlying the representation, and if there is anything in the suggestion that the Children's Court could be held after instead of before the ordinary court I have no doubt whatever that he will advise me adequately on that matter, and that the necessary administrative arrangements will be made, but I have investigated this matter rather closely, in view of the discussion in the Dáil on last year's Estimates, and in view of certain communications which I received from outside persons and bodies. I came to the conclusion that there is a certain morbidity behind the representation, and that there is nothing in the existing arrangement calculated to injure the children in any way, and also that there is no undesirable contact on the part of children who have to be brought before the court for one reason or another. I am as anxious to avoid anything in the nature of immoral contagion for these youthful offenders as the Deputy or anyone else can be, but the inquiries I have made led me to the conclusion that there is really little, if any, fault to be found with the existing arrangement. For what it is worth, I will ask the senior District Justice to let me have an opinion as to whether there would be any advantage in holding the Children's Court after, instead of before, the ordinary court business is entered upon, and, if he is of the opinion that there would be such an advantage, beyond question that will be done. On this year's Estimates I want to face definitely the suggestion of a separate building. I contend that it would be an unnecessary and unjustifiable expenditure, that the existing arrangements are satisfactory, and that the maintenance and upkeep of a separate building would be a refinement of administration which we cannot afford, and which is not called for by anything in the evils attendant on the present arrangements.

Mr. GOOD

I take it that the Minister will look into the matter?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Yes.

Motion put and agreed to.