Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 11 Jun 1926

Vol. 16 No. 9

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 2—OIREACHTAS.

MINISTER for FINANCE (Mr. Blythe)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £75,802 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1927, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí an Oireachtais.

That a sum not exceeding £75,802 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1927, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Oireachtas.

The Deputies will notice that the same principle has been adopted this year as in previous years. Provision has been made for salaries and allowances of Teachtaí who have been elected to the Dáil. The Estimate shows a nominal increase over the estimate of last year under sub-head (a), but that is purely a book-keeping increase. The cause of the apparent increase is that the figure for 1925-26 is a revised figure. It was revised downwards from the original figure when a supplementary estimate was required to provide for the grant-in-aid of the Joint House Committee and the extra grant to the Inter-Parliamentary Union. The sums required then were found by saving, with the exception of about £10, which was found by means of a supplementary estimate. The result was that the original provision under sub-head (a) was written down and the revised figure is here given for the purpose of comparison. There are reductions in the travelling expenses of Teachtaí and Seanadoirí. Those reductions are based upon last year's figures. I do not think there are any other features of the Estimate to which it is necessary to refer.

Mr. JOHNSON

May I ask the Minister if he would inform the House and, through the House, the public, as to the position with regard to travelling expenses? I think it is within his knowledge that there have been suggestions made about revision of the terms and a consequent cheapening, though extension, of the facilities for travelling. There is a great deal of misunderstanding with regard to this matter, and I should like the opportunity to be taken to remove some of these misapprehensions. I can speak in this way, because travelling expenses never come my way. I think it might be well if I made a statement with a view to getting the Minister to amplify it. While there is provision made for travelling expenses, it is very rigidly confined to travelling expenses to the constituency of the member, when he is attending to duties connected with his membership of the Dáil.

The question that I asked at the beginning had reference to the suggestion to extend the area of travelling facilities while reducing the cost per journey, that is to say, making third-class journeys possible. It has been explained that that would require an alteration in the Act affecting this question of travelling expenses. The chief reason I desire to speak on this matter is to remove what is a very general view—that Deputies may travel anywhere, at any time, on any business at the expense of the State— which, of course, every Deputy knows is entirely false. Unfortunately, the public have an entirely wrong view on this question of travelling expenses and are unaware that travelling expenses are rigidly confined to the official journeys of Deputies attending to their duties here.

Mr. T. MURPHY

I do not know whether I am strictly in order or not, but I would like to draw the Minister's attention to a matter that has been discussed pretty extensively in the part of the country from which I come. This matter arises out of a report made by the Comptroller and Auditor-General and statements have been made by responsible people in regard to alleged payments to Dáil organisers out of public funds. I am quite satisfied that these statements are groundless, but they have been made the basis of wholesale charges of corruption and jobbery. I should like the Minister to clear up the position, so that people who are likely to be deluded by statements of this kind will be made aware of the truth of the position.

Mr. BLYTHE

With reference to the point raised by Deputy Johnson, certain proposals for a change in regard to the arrangement for travelling expenses are at present before my Department, and are being considered. The present arrangement is that a Deputy must obtain a voucher for each journey between his constituency and Dublin. In certain cases that causes inconvenience to Deputies, and sometimes it is difficult for them, if they decide suddenly on travelling, to obtain a voucher in time. There is also the trouble of claiming repayment. It was at one time suggested that an attempt should be made to arrange with the railway companies to issue season tickets to Deputies. That was explored, and it was found that it would be more expensive to the State than the present arrangement, and that it presented other difficulties.

Another arrangement suggested was that third, instead of first, class travelling vouchers should be given. That also is receiving consideration. I do not think that I need express any opinion upon it at the moment. When it has been explored as well as it can be, the view of my department will be submitted through the Ceann Comhairle to the proper committee, and through it to the Dáil for further examination. It should be perfectly clear to members of the public that the payment of travelling expenses for members of the Dáil is very rigidly regulated, and is strictly confined to travelling between the constituencies and the metropolis. Deputy Tadhg O Murchadha raised a point about ex-Dáil organisers. I thought that that was one of the points which the Minister for Agriculture referred to the other day when criticising a certain maker of speeches in the country. I do not know exactly what to say about it. I scarcely know to what the allegations refer. To the best of my knowledge, the rumours were set afoot by the fact that under the old Dáil there were certain organisers in connection with certain Irish classes. These organisers were taken over, like other old Dáil servants, by the Saorstát Government. There was some delay in re-grading and assimilating them into the ordinary civil service classes, and they were continued on the same rate of pay by the Saorstát Government. I do not know how anything about them arises on this Vote —in fact, I know nothing directly about them.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

There is no provision made for them in this Vote.

Mr. BLYTHE

No.

Mr. CONLAN

Would the Minister say what are Dáil organisers, and whether there are such functionaries at present?

Mr. BLYTHE

They were organisers appointed by the old Dáil. I do not mean that they were to organise the Dáil throughout the country.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

resumed the Chair.

Mr. LYONS

Some speeches have been made in the country advocating economy. The Deputy who made those speeches is present in the Dáil now. He was so kind to his constituents as to look for a cut all round in salaries, and he declared that he would look for a ten per cent. cut. That would apply also to Deputies and Senators. If the Deputy who made those speeches is now prepared to fulfil his promise, this is the place for him. I have spoken in the country on the subject of economy. I have been challenged here to forfeit my salary, and I am quite prepared to do it if other Deputies do the same.

Mr. CONLAN

Your salary is not in danger.

Mr. LYONS

Probably if it was the challenge would not be made so freely. As regards the question of travelling expenses and the manner in which Deputies are treated, I do not think Deputies are treated at all in a proper manner. If you go to the office here you get a voucher. Then you rush to the station and you may have to wait, perhaps, five minutes before you get a ticket and in the meantime you very often lose your train. Very often you cannot get a ticket. Surely some facilities should be given by having season tickets. Last year the Minister for Finance promised to consider the question of facilitating Deputies by getting in touch with the railway companies.

Mr. BLYTHE

That was done.

Mr. LYONS

If that was done, we are still in the same position. It will hardly be worth while to do it now as we will have an election next year. In the country a good deal has been said with regard to the travelling expenses of Deputies. I agree with Deputy Johnson and Deputy Murphy that there has been a good deal of mud thrown in regard to that question. It is said that Deputies get vouchers every time they are going on business to their constituents. We are supposed also to get hotel expenses, and it is said that Deputies who sit on committees are paid expenses incurred by sitting on them. I would like the Minister to do something in regard to these travelling facilities, even to speak to the people in the railway offices in order that, when vouchers are submitted, tickets will be given immediately in exchange so that we will not be kept waiting for our trains as I have been on a few occasions.

Dr. HENNESSY

I do not know if I understood the Minister rightly when he said that he had referred the suggestion that Deputies should be given third-class travelling facilities to a committee.

Mr. BLYTHE

A Committee of the House referred it to me.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The position is this. A discussion took place with regard to travelling facilities. Many avenues were explored, including these particular ones as to season tickets and as to whether better facilities could be provided on a third-class basis. I do not think it would be right to say that any decision was taken, either by the Committee or anyone else, except that the Committee would like to have further information.

Dr. HENNESSY

As regards the avenue suggested, I am not concerned as I receive no travelling expenses because I do not incur them in attending here. I hope, however, that any committee to which the suggestion is referred will turn it down. I do not believe that men travel first-class out of snobbery but simply for comfort. Deputies travelling long distances from distant parts of Ireland should, I think, get opportunities for travelling under the most comfortable conditions possible.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

They must, under the Act.

Mr. JOHNSON

Perhaps further opportunity may be given to make clear that point which Deputy Lyons has made, namely, that service on committees does not mean any further expense. No member of a committee of any kind, so far as I know, receives any additional allowance by virtue of his service on a committee. As Deputy Lyons has said, that is another very widely spread misapprehension.

Mr. LYONS

It is rumoured in the country that every member of the Dáil who acts on a special committee is in receipt of £2 2s. a day, over and above his allowance.

Mr. BLYTHE

The allowance that Deputies receive for hotel and other expenses is £360 a year. If they attend committees, and if they incur additional expense by attending committees, as many Deputies do, they suffer, and whatever extra cost is entailed is borne by themselves. I do not know whether we could do anything to facilitate Deputy Lyons and prevent him missing his train. Perhaps we should try to get some sort of a clock or watch for his benefit. With regard to his statement about the allowance to Deputies, of course, that is a statutory allowance and does not arise properly on the present Estimate. But it is a sum that no more than meets the cost that falls upon Deputies by reason of their attendance here in the Dáil. The people who may benefit because of that sum are people who do not attend. I have seen it seriously suggested that Deputies should be deprived of their allowance if they do not attend. My view is that the people who do not attend would be of no benefit in this House if they did attend.

Major COOPER

Is voting for the Government no benefit?

Mr. BLYTHE

They cannot do that if they do not attend.

Mr. HEWAT

I would like the Minister to elaborate what he means by providing travelling facilities in connection with third class. Is the suggestion made that travelling facilities should be extended beyond coming to attend this House and going back again, or is it to be something in the line of economy that is going to save the House money? We had a long criticism of the last Vote. We do not seem to have much to say about this Vote, which is a total expenditure of £82,240. It seems to me that if there is any claim made on behalf of any members of this House to increase facilities or benefits it ought to be widely known as to what it is that is being put forward. Deputy Lyons complained about having missed his train. He did not tell us whether it was at this end or at the other end; if he had told us it might have influence on us in considering his case sympathetically. Although I should not speak upon the subject because, like Deputy Doctor Hennessy, I never have occasion to get money for travelling expenses, it seems to me that if Deputies get the allowance necessary to pay their fares according to the constitutional regulation, this is not the time, at all events, that an application should be made to increase those facilities.

Mr. BLYTHE

There is no intention of that. Really, it is a matter that perhaps is not ripe for discussion in this House. Discussions have arisen from time to time in the Committee of Procedure and Privileges in regard to travelling facilities, and in regard to the manner in which these facilities were regulated. Various suggestions have been made, one being that instead of the coupon system there might be one of season tickets. That was turned down because it would be more expensive. It was also suggested that it might be worth while considering that instead of giving first-class travelling facilities to a Deputy between his constituency and Dublin it might be better to give only third-class facilities but in addition to give the Deputy facilities in travelling through his constituency. That was merely a question put up for discussion, and it was referred to the Department of Finance for examination, in order that the observations of the Department of Finance might be forwarded to the Committee. It was merely a tentative proposal. Nothing at all may come of it, and certainly it is not a proposal that has reached a stage where any discussion here is necessary or called for.

General MULCAHY

As so much has been said on this point I should like to say that I hope in considering the matter of travelling it will be considered entirely from the point of view of how the work of the Oireachtas can best be done by providing travelling facilities. If it can be done by additional expenditure on travelling, then that additional expenditure on travelling should not be avoided. I think it would be absurd if, after three or four years' experience of the work here, in reviewing the expenditure on travelling we reviewed it from the point of view of expenditure rather than from the point of view of the efficiency of the working of the House and the convenience of Deputies. As one who represents a city constituency and am not bothered with travelling, from what I have seen of constituencies and the various matters that have to be attended to in the country, I think that Deputies who represent large constituencies should have all the assistance that can be given to them to enable them to keep in touch with their constituents and to discharge their duty.

Question put and agreed to.