Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 11 Jun 1926

Vol. 16 No. 9

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 9.—TEMPORARY COMMISSIONS.

Mr. BLYTHE

I move:—

9. Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £17,660 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhártha, 1927, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí eile Coimisiún Sealadach. Coistí agus Fíosruchán Speisialta.

9. That a sum not exceeding £17,660 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1927, for the salaries and other expenses of Temporary Commissions, Committees, and Special Inquiries.

This Vote is still for a substantial sum, but it is a lesser sum considerably than was required last year. The expenses in our case perhaps have been high in this matter because we were starting afresh and many matters had to be investigated that would not need to be in older establishments. Some of the Commissions were Commissions arising from the organising and setting up of the State. For instance, the Dáil Eireann Winding-up Commission, which was a Judicial Commission, and the Boundary Bureau. The Banking Commission is a new one which has been sitting for some months now and is nearing the end of its labours. The work of the Board of Assessors under the Military Service Pensions Act, 1924, will continue for some time into this year, but I think that before the end of the present financial year the work will certainly be completed. The Central Savings Committee is one which is classed amongst the temporary Commissions, but is a committee that will have some permanency. It certainly will continue until the habit of investing in savings certificates has become more widespread and more firmly established than it is at the present time. A token figure is put in in connection with the Civil Service Compensation Committee, because it cannot operate until the judgment of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council in the Wigg v. Cochrane case has been delivered. The Gaelteacht Committee has practically concluded its work.

I am not sure to what extent the Commission on the Relief of the Sick and Destitute Poor has proceeded, but it has done a great deal of its work.

The Food Prices Tribunal is only commencing its work and the figure set down for it is the best we could give. The Estimates were in an advanced stage of preparation before the decision to establish the Tribunal was taken.

In connection with the Ports and Harbours Tribunal a good deal of travelling will be involved in the work of that particular body, and the expenses will be fairly considerable. The other Commissions listed in part have ceased to operate.

Mr. HEWAT

What about the Greater Dublin Commission?

Mr. BLYTHE

There is a small sum for that, but I am not in touch with it at present and do not know what stage it has reached.

Mr. JOHNSON

Would the Minister explain the use of the word "Tribunal"?

Mr. BLYTHE

I suppose it is a quotation from the Act.

MINISTER for INDUSTRY and COMMERCE (Mr. McGilligan)

These are the terms in the Act under which these two bodies were set up.

Captain REDMOND

Can the Minister for Finance give any indication as to when the Wigg v. Cochrane case will come on?

Mr. BLYTHE

I could not. It was thought it would be heard before the long vacation.

Mr. LYONS

I would like to know whether any member of the Board of Assessors is drawing a salary from the Oireachtas as well as being paid as a member of the Board. I have nothing whatever to say against the Board of Assessors for the work they have done and they certainly must have a very hard and strenuous time. The Board had about 22,000 applications for pensions before them. They succeeded in getting through about 17,000 cases, 15,000 of which were rejected. With all due respect to the Board of Assessors, I do not think they are giving favourable consideration to the claims of men who are entitled to pensions under the Army Service Pensions Act of 1924. If an applicant can succeed in getting three men to fill up the necessary forms, and if what these men, who may be living twenty miles apart, state agrees, a pension is granted by the Board. If a man who is really entitled to a pension for active service and who was in the movement since 1916 is not able to do that, or if the forms that he gets filled up do not agree, the application is turned down.

I admit that the Board of Assessors have worked hard, but I think that they should take it for granted that the claim is a genuine one where three forms are filled up and where the statements of those who fill them agree. There is a payment of £4,549 for salaries and wages, and £1,325 for travelling expenses. That is a very nice sum for the Board; simply to turn down a great many genuine applications. I have written letters to the Board of Assessors about cases. I will not sign any more forms, because the signature of a Deputy is turned down, while the signature of a man who would not be elected to a district council is accepted. I would like to hear more information as to the work that has been done. Admittedly the Board has examined 17,000 applications, but the secretary has to do that work. The other members of the Board simply sit in chairs at the meeting and, it has been alleged, and I think it cannot be contradicted, that, in some cases, when men went before the Board only the secretary and one member were present. Applications were turned down because the members of the Board were not present. Members of the Board cannot be doing two or three duties. That is the reason I am asking if they are in receipt of a salary from other Oireachtas Funds, as well as a salary from the Board of Assessors. I do not see any payment in the Estimate for the Chairman. He must be a patriot, acting on the Board for love of the work. I would like to know if any money is included in any other Vote to cover the further expenses that might be incurred by this Board.

I am criticising the work of the Board particularly for turning down genuine claims, and for giving pensions to men who are not entitled to them. That can be proved beyond doubt. When the Board has finished its work it will be proved that a large number of men are in receipt of pensions to which they were not entitled, while at the same time the claims of men who were entitled to pensions were turned down. When the Military Service Pensions Act was passed it was never expected that some men who have got pensions would get them. There is too much red-tape attached to the working of the Act. An applicant would want to have some friends to work influence for him before he could succeed in getting a pension.

Mr. HUGHES

That is all nonsense. I think it is time to stop this.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Does Deputy Lyons mean exactly what his words convey?

Mr. LYONS

I will explain.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Before the Deputy explains, I hope it is clear that this Board of Assessors under the Act gives final decisions?

Mr. LYONS

Quite clear, yes.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

And the Act contemplated the setting up of a Board of Assessors?

Mr. LYONS

Yes.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

And the Chairman of the Board of Assessors is a judge, a District Justice?

Mr. LYONS

He is neutral.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

He is a judge. Very often Deputy Lyons is not quite clear in what he says. Does he really mean improper influences are used on this Board and that they grant public money under improper influences?

Mr. LYONS

What I do mean is this: that where a genuine application has been submitted to the Board of Assessors that application has been turned down. I used the word "influence." If you are fortunate enough to be able to get twenty or thirty Deputies, or prominent men in the Saorstát, to write letters for you saying that they knew you did this, that, and the other thing, you will have a chance of getting a pension.

Mr. HUGHES

Again I must protest against this. This Board of Assessors is part of my Department, and I must protest against accusations of that kind being flung at them here. No amount of letter-writing or anything else will get any man a pension who is not entitled to it, no matter who he is. A man must prove his case, bring up his witnesses and have it proved on oath, and he must give his own evidence on oath. If Deputy Lyons thinks that he can influence the Board to give certain decisions by anything he says here I say that he is in the wrong shop. The Board has done its duty, and it is an onerous duty, to my satisfaction, and, as far as I know, the duty that they have to perform is not the kind that many Deputies would undertake. I want to be fair to the Board, and only fair to them, and it is not fair that a Deputy should stand up here and say that these men are susceptible to influences, no matter from what quarter they may come. That is not a statement that should be made, and I think the Deputy should withdraw it, and withdraw it unreservedly.

Mr. LYONS

Can the Minister say if the members of the Board were present when these claims were under consideration?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The Deputy is going a step further now. He is getting on to a different point. The Deputy does not always appreciate the meaning of the words he uses. He means applications which the applicants themselves consider genuine, but it is the members of the Board who decide whether an application is in fact genuine. What he means by saying that genuine applications had been turned down is that people have made what they consider to be genuine applications, and the Board has turned them down. He ought to respond to the Minister's request as to whether he does or does not withdraw the statement that undue influence is used on the Board, and that the Board yields to it. The question of who is present at the Board meetings does not arise at all here.

Mr. LYONS

I did not mean to accuse the Board of Assessors of acting under influence so far as to grant pensions to people who are not entitled to them. But I do maintain that pensions have been given to men who are not entitled to them, and whether the Board of Assessors have been led astray or not is their mistake, and not mine. But as soon as the Board has finished its work I will prove it in this House, and will give the names of persons in receipt of pensions who are not entitled to them.

Mr. HUGHES

Why not do it now? I challenged you before on that point, and you said you would give it to me privately, but you have not.

Mr. LYONS

I challenged the Minister and he would not reply. I asked him why did the Board stand so loyally to the words, "active service." The Minister has travelled from the top of the bush right down to the very root, but he forgot to come to the centre. That was the very question I wanted a reply to. Now I am told by the Minister that if I put forward the names here of course the pensions will be stopped.

Mr. HUGHES

I did not say that. I will inquire into it.

Mr. LYONS

If you inquire into it you will find what I am stating is correct. I can give you several cases where the full Board of Assessors was not present when the applicant went before the Board.

Mr. HUGHES

This thing has been under discussion before, and I explained that in every case where a pension is granted the full Board is present. The chairman and the secretary of the board take evidence, and make minutes of the evidence. That is afterwards submitted to the full board when it meets, and it is only the full board that has power to grant a pension to anybody. The chairman and the secretary do not grant pensions.

Mr. LYONS

I am quite satisfied that the chairman and the secretary do not grant pensions. I am quite satisfied that the secretary has done and is doing three men's work.

Mr. CORISH

He ought to be ashamed of himself.

Mr. LYONS

He ought; he ought to be in the Transport Union. What I do say is that we are asked to vote practically £6,000 for the salaries and expenses of this board. I want the Minister for Finance to reply to one question only: Are the Board of Assessors drawing salaries from the Oireachtas as well as the salaries and expenses under this head?

Mr. BLYTHE

The members of the Board of Assessors are drawing no salaries as members of that Board. The Chairman of the Board is a District Justice and has his salary as District Justice. He also has an allowance of £300 a year. That allowance is only paid on condition that the payment of the locomotion allowance of £200 yearly to which he would be entitled in his district is suspended, and furthermore that when he travels outside Dublin he shall not be paid subsistence allowance. The £300 is to cover subsistence. He has with the secretary been in many districts in the country, and during the time he was out he was paid nothing but rail travelling expenses. That is the only thing in the nature of a salary or allowance paid to any member of the Board.

Mr. LYONS

Would I be in order in asking the member of the Board who is present?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

No. There is no member of the Board present here as such and it would be a very wrong principle that a Deputy should be allowed to ask such a question.

Mr. LYONS

I accept your ruling. I would like to know if it would be possible for the Minister to mention a date when the Board of Assessors will have completed their work?

Mr. BLYTHE

It is hoped that it will be completed about October.

Vote put and agreed to.

The Dáil went out of Committee.

Progress reported. Committee to sit again on Tuesday, 15th June.