Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 11 Jun 1926

Vol. 16 No. 9

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE NO. 3—DEPARTMENT OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE EXECUTIVE COUNCIL.

Motion made:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £8,846 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1927, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Roinn Uachtarán na h-Ard-Chomhairle.

That a sum not exceeding £8,846 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1927, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of the President of the Executive Council.—

(Resumed.)

Mr. JOHNSON

I move:—"To reduce sub-head E by £250." The sub-head makes an allowance to the President for a motor car of £500. I have put this motion down because I think the justification for fixing that amount has not been satisfactorily explained, and because I think that the allowance, without further explanation, is too liberal. The President has said that the depreciation of a car for the first year would be £300. I do not know whether that is generally accepted by the owners of motor cars, and, when we consider that the allowance in question is supplemental to the provision for two chauffeurs, we can only come to the conclusion that the cost of running a motor car is a sign of very great prosperity in the country, if these figures are to be taken as evidence. We know from our observation how many cars there are in the country, and if we were to assume that, apart from the driver, the annual cost of running a car is £500—I am speaking of the more costly cars which run pretty frequently—it indicates a reserve of wealth for spending, partly for business and largely for pleasure, which is not in accord with what we are constantly told is the actual position in the country.

I am very much inclined to doubt whether £500 for depreciation, unkeep, and cost of running, is a reasonable charge, such as would be considered reasonable for the owners of motor cars in the ordinary course of their private business or pleasure. I base my suggested amount, £250, upon certain figures that have been given in the Dáil in one way and another, as to the allowances made by the Ministry of Finance. I find, for instance, that a Chief Superintendent of Police is allowed for his motor car service £160 a year and a Superintendent is allowed £120. A Chief Superintendent of Police is believed to require to use his car very generally, and it has to be a car of some quality. As I say, a sum of £160 a year is allowed for that. I have suggested that, in lieu of the service for which a car would be required for the President, a sum of £250, or £90 over that allowed by the Ministry of Finance to a Chief Superintendent of Police, is not unreasonable and, perhaps, would be considered fairly adequate. It presupposes, say, 10,000 miles per year at sixpence per mile.

I think it is considered that sixpence per mile, the cost of running, depreciation, etc., is a fairly reasonable allowance, and that 10,000 miles a year is a fairly liberal running allowance. It is, of course, possible to exceed that, and to reach a figure of 20,000 miles per year. I think somebody suggested that it was possible to do 40,000 miles a year with certain cars, but a normal allowance would, I think, be 10,000 miles per year at sixpence a mile. That would leave the sum allowed at £250. I think the method of making a fixed allowance in such a case is preferable to the method that was previously in operation, but I am not satisfied that the method of computation has had proper care, and I think it is too liberal. On those grounds I have moved to reduce the sum.

Mr. BLYTHE

The change was made from the old arrangement whereby a Government-owned car was used by the President. That was an unsatisfactory arrangement, and it created difficulties for the Accounting Officer. The car was used for necessary public and private purposes and it was decided, instead of that, that an allowance should be given to the President for a car. It is necessary that the President, in view of his office, should have a car such as he would not keep if he were not holding the office of President. There are people who will visit the head of the Government and who will have to be offered the use of his car. It is not desirable that any person coming on a visit to the State should be offered only the use of a taxi. A car of a good type is necessary. I think that there ought to be more than one car available. The allowance given was examined very carefully, and, in my opinion, it is not at all excessive. When a car of a good quality is bought you have to reckon your interest on your money, your road tax, your cost of insurance, the very rapid depreciation and the heavy running cost. I wish to say no more than that the figure was carefully considered, that it is not excessive, and that I would not put myself into the position of using the platform afforded here to answer the sort of semi-scurrilous criticism which one hears in regard to this matter. I know about this matter. It has been gone into very carefully by my office and anybody who knows the cost of running a car which is used very considerably, which may be used for long trips, and which may be put at the disposal of other people, will realise that the allowance is not unreasonable.

Mr. JOHNSON

I do not want it to be thought that I am niggardly in regard to the social functions which the President's position requires him to carry through. I have a very clear view as to the position which the President ought to occupy in such matters. Nevertheless, I have thought it desirable to have this matter discussed, not with a view to any platform or any appeal to public antipathies, but I based the proposition upon evidence which has been supplied one way and another. The Minister has assured us that this matter has been very carefully considered. I have no first-hand knowledge, nor have I made inquiries of people who use motor cars to any degree. I am only going on evidence presented by the Minister's own staff on matters that have come before the Committee of Public Accounts. I took the figures that have been so presented, I have assumed 10,000 miles annual service at sixpence per mile, and I have added on £90 or £100 for the difference as between the cost of a car which would be used by a chief superintendent of police and such a car as would be used by the President, for excessive depreciation and insurance.

If that allowance is not sufficient for the difference in depreciation, and so on, my argument does not hold. But I am not satisfied yet that the difference is warranted, and it still seems to me to be more than is reasonable as an allowance for a motor car. I do not want to press the matter too hard, unless other Deputies have something to say and have views to give as to the comparative costs of running motor cars. I am forced to the conclusion, though, that if this is to be taken as a sign to the public of the cost of keeping and running a motor car, and allowing for the additional cost which one in the position of the President will have to bear, it does show that there is an immense amount of reserve wealth in the country which the Minister for Finance will, no doubt, take due account of.

Mr. BLYTHE

There is just one thing I wish to add. If we had a President in office for a series of years we would not want the sum of £500 every year. But you have to face the fact that there is a bigger depreciation in the first year. A man who buys a car because he is the President and has to sell that car six months afterwards, if he ceased to be President, might have on the sale a very big loss, but if you write off the depreciation in the first year there is not such depreciation at all in the second year, and in the third year the depreciation would be still less. The view we took was that we must allow for the bigger depreciation in the first year, because the President might cease to hold office at or before the end of the first year. Further investigation will follow, and when we have completed the second year some reduction will take place.

If we were satisfied that the sum that was actually necessary last year will not be necessary this year the whole of this £500 will not be paid to the President, but a fair estimate will be made. But the attitude I had taken up in this matter was that the position ought not to be that the President should be faced with a big loss on a car out of his own pocket because we had made arrangements that the car should be his own property. The President was anxious to have no car, but I insisted that a car should be continued, because I did not think that certain people at whose disposal we require to have cars placed should be given a taxi. If we had not that arrangement we would require to have a car or cars actually owned by the State. One does not want to overdo the dignity of office, particularly the dignity of a political office, but I think that certain consideration is necessary with regard to it. This whole matter has been considered in my Department in the most impersonal way, simply with the desire to arrange a position that would be fair to the President and to the State.

Motion put and declared lost.

Vote put and agreed to.