A message has been received from the Seanad that the Seanad agree that a Joint Committee of both Houses of the Oireachtas, consisting of three members of the Dáil and three members of the Seanad, with power to send for persons, papers and records, be set up to inquire and report whether the incapacity to be elected to, or to sit as a member of, either House of the Oireachtas imposed as regards certain classes of persons by Sections 51 and 57 of the Electoral Act, 1923 (No. 12 of 1923), should be extended to include any other class or classes of persons, and, if so, to what class or classes should the incapacity extend.
PUBLIC BUSINESS. - MEMBERSHIP OF THE OIREACHTAS. MESSAGE FROM THE SEANAD.
I move:—
Go gcuirtear ar bun Có-Choiste de dhá Tigh an Oireachtais co-dhéanta de thrúir ball den Dáil agus de thrúir ball den tSeanad agus comhacht acu chun fios de chur ar dhaoine, ar pháipéirí agus ar bhreacacháin, chun a fhiosrú agus a thuairisciú, an mí-chumas a cuirtar ar aicmí airithe daoine le hAltanna 51 agus 57 den Acht Timpeal Toghachán, 1923 (Uimh. 12 de 1923) agus ná leigeann go dtoghfí iad chun aon Tigh den Oireachtas na go suidhfidís mar bhaill den Tigh sin, ar cheart an mí-chumas san do chur ar aon aicme no aicmí eile daoine agus, más ceart, cadé an aicme no cadiad na haicmí eile ar cheart an mí-chumas san do chur.
Is ainneoin éinni atá in Ordú 115c go n'ainmeoidh an Coiste Roghnathoireachta triúr teachtaí chun fónamh ar an gCó-Choiste.
That a Joint Committee of both Houses of the Oireachtas, consisting of three members of the Dáil and three members of the Seanad, with power to send for persons, papers and records, be set up to inquire and report whether the incapacity to be elected to, or to sit as a member of either House of the Oireachtas imposed as regards certain classes of persons by Sections 51 and 57 of the Electoral Act, 1923 (No. 12 of 1923) should be extended to include any other class or classes of persons, and, if so, to what class or classes should the incapacity extend.
That notwithstanding anything contained in Standing Order 115c, the Committee of Selection nominate three Deputies to serve on the Joint Committee.
I want to oppose this motion on the ground that it is unwise even to suggest an extension of the incapacities for membership of the Oireachtas unless a substantial case is made.
We have decided that it is expedient to do this. All that remains is to make a formal order for the appointment of the Committee and to nominate the members to serve on that Committee. At this stage we cannot have a debate on a question which has already been decided. It would, in my view, be manifestly improper.
Is it not competent for me to argue that there are no persons in this House capable of examining this question satisfactorily?
Not now. That is a question which could have arisen in the first instance. When a Joint Committee is being asked for, a motion is made to the effect "That it is expedient that a Joint Committee of both Houses of the Oireachtas, &c., &c., should be set up." When that motion has been adopted a message is sent to the Seanad asking for their concurrence, and when the concurrence of the Seanad has been obtained a formal motion such as is now before the Dáil is made to set up the Committee and to select the members who are to represent the Dáil on the Joint Committee. Obviously only one opportunity therefore arises to discuss the matter of setting up the Committee. The Deputy's point is one which could have arisen before but which cannot be raised now.
I looked on this as a sort of Second Reading, as the resolution has been passed. I could not, however, do anything but oppose the motion now.
Is it open to discuss the question as to why we should depart from Standing Order 115c? That says, in effect, that the Dáil shall appoint representatives on such Joint Committee. The President proposes to leave power to appoint to the Committee of Selection. While it is desirable that the Committee of Selection should recommend these representatives to the Dáil, the Dáil should have an opportunity of discussing, and actually appointing, its own representatives. In a small Committee like this of only three it is inevitable that some Party will be unrepresented. It ought to be possible for that Party to make a protest, and it should be for the Dáil as a whole, and not for the Committee of Selection, to decide who are the three best representatives for this important work. The disqualification of any class of citizen from membership of the Oireachtas is very serious and very important, and I hold that on this matter we should stick to the established procedure in the Standing Order. Let the Selection Committee make recommendations to us by all means, but let the Dáil have the last word in the matter.
The Dáil must have the last word in all matters of this kind. The Committee of Selection can only nominate members to serve on the Committee. Normally, their report is adopted without question, but at least in one case within my recollection exception has been taken to a nomination made by the Committee of Selection. The procedure adopted then was to refer the matter back to the Committee of Selection. In this case and in every other case of a similar kind, the Committee of Selection must report to the Dáil and the Dáil can deal with the report as it pleases. The last word is with the Dáil in all cases.
Having got that ruling I am satisfied. I was afraid the President was deliberately setting aside the procedure laid down in the Standing Order, and that the Committee of Selection would be empowered to nominate these three members without reporting to the House.
By utilising the machinery of the Committee of Selection, the House is saved the necessity of taking name after name and discussing it in public.
Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 41; Níl, 13.
Tá
- Pádraig Baxter.
- Earnán de Blaghd.
- Thomas Bolger.
- Séamus Breathnach.
- Seoirse de Bhulbh.
- Séamus de Búrca.
- John J. Cole.
- John Conlan.
- Máighréad Ní Choileáin Bean
- Uí Dhrisceóil.
- James Dwyer.
- Michael Egan.
- Osmond Grattan Esmonde.
- John Hennigan.
- William Hewat.
- Patrick Leonard.
- Seosamh Mac a' Bhrighde.
- Liam Mac Cosgair.
- Seán MacCurtain.
- Pádraig Mac Fadáin.
- Patrick McGilligan.
- Risteárd Mac Liam.
- Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
- Pádraig Mag Ualghairg.
- James Sproule Myles.
- Martin M. Nally.
- John T. Nolan.
- Peadar O hAodha.
- Seán O Bruadair.
- Conchubhar O Conghaile.
- Séamus O Dóláin.
- Pádraig O Dubhthaigh.
- Eamon O Dúgáin.
- Seán O Duinnín.
- Mícheál O hIfearnáin.
- Fionán O Loingsigh.
- Séamus O Murchadha.
- Máirtín O Rodaigh.
- Seán O Súilleabháin.
- Caoimhghín O hUigín.
- Patrick W. Shaw.
- Liam Thrift.
Níl
- Séamus Eabhróid.
- David Hall.
- Séamus Mac Cosgair.
- Tomás Mac Eoin.
- Risteárd Mac Fheorais.
- Tomás de Nógla.
- Ailfrid O Broin.
- Aodh O Cúlacháin.
- Liam O Daimhín.
- Eamon O Dubhghaill.
- Seán O Laidhin.
- Pádraic O Máille.
- Pádraig O hOgáin (An Clár).
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Dolan and Nicholls. Níl: Deputies Corish and Davin.
Motion declared carried. Message ordered to be sent to the Seanad accordingly.