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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 22 Jun 1926

Vol. 16 No. 14

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 24—ORDNANCE SURVEY.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £31,685 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1927, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí na Suirbhéireachta Ordonáis agus na mion-seirbhísí a bhaineas léi.

That a sum not exceeding £31,685 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1927, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Ordnance Survey and of minor services connected therewith.

In connection with this Estimate, I might say that I have now received the report of the Committee that was set up to inquire into the Ordnance Survey. I hope to have the report circulated to Deputies within a very short time. The report, which is an interim one, leaves certain matters in connection with levelling to be further investigated. The Committee thought that, on the general matter and on the general list of charges which had been made, it ought to report. Its report is one which completely disposes of the charges that were made against the office in respect to documents, records and equipment.

Is it likely that the report will be circulated within the next fortnight?

The report certainly will, but there are appendices which I am doubtful whether it is worth having printed. Apart from that, I will undertake to circulate the actual report of the Committee forthwith.

Does the Minister propose to make the appendices available?

The public no doubt, as well as members of this House, will be greatly relieved to have this report circulated. It is somewhat disappointing that it is only an interim report, and, as the Minister has indicated, one question at least has been reserved for further consideration. The Dáil was startled about this time two years ago by very serious allegations against the Ordnance Survey. It was alleged, amongst others, by a Deputy no longer a member of this House, Mr. Sean McGarry, that not only had most important documents been removed, but that plates and maps had been destroyed and that data essential to the work of map production had disappeared irrecoverably. That may not be a perfectly accurate account of Mr. McGarry's indictment, but so far as memory serves me, he and others such as Deputy Connor Hogan and Deputy Hogan of the Labour Party, together made an indictment of which that, I think, is a fair summary. Everyone felt at the time that if it were true that documents essential to the military safety of this country had disappeared, if data upon which the production of maps has to be based were beyond our reach; if, as was further alleged, the maps issued were not accurate, the country would be in a very sad plight indeed, through the disorganisation, or whatever else it might be called, of this very important Department. There were several items in the terms of reference to the Committee that was set up to inquire and report on this matter. The Committee was to inquire if the Ordnance Survery had its full measure of equipment, and was properly provided, if maps, plans, documents and the rest had been removed since December. 1919, and whether or not the maps issued were constructed upon a proper basis, and as issued were an accurate account of the results of the surveys. Two very important things were involved: one, that the trigonometrical data provided by the survey set up in the first quarter of the nineteenth century were not to hand when they were required for national purposes at a very critical moment in 1922, and that, in common with other data, they have been transferred to Southampton. I wonder would the Minister say if the report we are to receive deals with that? The Minister spoke of levellings just now. There has been a continuous dispute, I know, with regard to the following of the older levelling marks, bench marks, or the substitution of new, and the dispute as to the relative merits of the old system of levelling. But what is really of the utmost importance to know is, whether this matter—this terrible matter if it be true— has or has not been proved, or still awaits to be proved, because undoubtedly the note-books which contain the result of trigonometrical data are not forthcoming, and if no substitute for them that can be validated as accurate and authentic records are forthcoming, we are in a very serious position. At the time I, for one, refused to believe that there could be a case made for this contention, and even now I should be glad to be reassured, and I am sure those of us who entered into the matter with interest at the time would feel intense relief to know that the reassuring words of the Minister applied to trigonometrical data. The Minister said just now in his summary of the report that all is well, and only this question of levellings is in reserve.

Before the Deputy goes further, when I was speaking of the point reserved I said it referred to levelling because I did not remember the actual word. The sentence dealing with the matter to be inquired into is as follows:—

"Inquiry into the adequacy of trigonometrical data raises questions of so wide and technical a character that the Committee feels it would be undersirable to delay its report on the many matters already investigated until the sufficiency of this data has been thoroughly examined."

That undoubtedly is eminently satisfactory, because the matter is highly technical, and as complex as it is technical, and it requires to be searched to the very bottom as to whether the accusations made here have anything of truth attaching to them. I take it, then, that in the further prosecution of the Committee's inquiry no stone will be left unturned in seeing that the absolute truth is reached in regard to the indictment I have already quoted.

There are other matters, such as the dissatisfaction of the staff with regard to the lack of proper organisation there. I understand that there is no trigonometrical section there. It was freely stated in the House, at the time the question arose some two years ago, that the real trouble originated in the dissatisfaction of the staff, but that, unfortunately, has not, so far as I know, been referred to the Committee. With regard to the equipment, we learned that it is a well-equipped department in one respect through the happenings associated with the late Seanad elections. It has an admirable printing press. It prints its output exceedingly well, as evinced in the printing of an address for one of the candidates at the Seanad elections. I wonder would it take a suggestion, following on the example of France, namely, to provide schools with maps. I note that it costs over £1,000 to sell almost an equal amount of maps. I have not the book containing the estimates with me at the moment from which to get the exact figure, but I think that something like the same amount is expended in printing maps as is received from the sales. Anyone interested in cycling or motoring is aware that the Michelin Tyre Company has produced a series of well-constructed maps. The idea is taken from, and the working out is based on, the French system. I do not see why the Ordnance Survey here should not take a leaf from the book of France and provide our schools with maps of their localities, out of which there could be taught in an interesting way the beginnings of geography and from which one could learn to envisage that subject, which is becoming more and more important in this commercial age in a proper way. I am very glad that we have this assurance that the important matter, the investigation of which was begun two years ago, is not to be dropped, and that the Committee, in which I am sure the public will have confidence, will not cease their investigations until they have tracked this down to the very last.

I understand that the Minister proposes to issue the interim report of the Committee which was set up to inquire into certain work of the Ordnance Survey Department. I should like to ask the Minister whether it is intended that this Committee should deal with the question of staff organisation. If that is not intended, I submit to the Minister that it is time that some definite notice was taken of the many complaints forwarded to him and to the heads of the Ordnance Survery Department in connection with staff grievances. From my contact with the Ordnance Survey staff, I know that there is very serious discontent at the failure of the Minister and the Department to take any notice of the representations made on behalf of the staff and to do anything to redress their grievances. I suggest to the Minister that that discontent is reflected in Vote 16 when you find that twenty-two members of the staff have retired under Article 10 of the Treaty. My information is that if the Minister does not change his policy in connection with that Department that number will be considerably increased. I think it is quite understandable that it should be increased. If the staff are unable to get a sympathetic hearing from the Minister, or from the heads of the Department, it is only natural that they would seek redress, by means of retirement under Article 10. I am informed, and I believe it to be true, that the Ordnance Survey Department is taking practically no notice of preliminary agreements entered into during the British administration. I understand that it was formerly the right of an unestablished officer when he had fifteen years' service to be established. I am informed that many officers have over fifteen years' service, but no attempt has been made to establish them. There are other grievances into which I will not go now, but I would like to have an assurance from the Minister that the matters brought to his notice by the staff will have consideration. The staff believe that this Committee will deal with the question of reorganisation. If the Minister says that that is not intended, I would like to have his assurance that something will be done at an early date to give sympathetic consideration to the matters which the staff have been submitting for the past few years.

I will read another paragraph from the report of the Committee:—

"Excepting for the present the question of the adequacy of the trigonometrical records on which our investigations are as yet incomplete, we find the whole mass of allegations and charges in so far as they reflect on the efficiency of the Survey and its practices to be without foundation. Many of the statements and charges investigated by the Committee were apparently made solely with a view to destroying the confidence of the Government and the public in the accuracy and reliability of the Survey and in the good faith and efficiency of certain members of the staff."

I will read another paragraph:—

"In the course of its inquiries, representations were made to the Committee that a general staff reorganisation would be productive of increased efficiency and would tend to promote content and zeal in the service. While this matter is, of course, outside the terms of reference, the Committee understands that reorganisation of this nature was in contemplation and was delayed pending the result of the present inquiry. The Committee hopes that the presentation of this report will enable the matter to be proceeded with."

That hope is accurate. The matter of staff reorganisation, which was held up because of the allegations and charges which were made, will now be taken in hand and dealt with as rapidly as possible.

I would like to point out one very small fact, which is contained in the report of the Committee on Public Accounts. There is an appendix to the report on page 397, giving a summary of instruments and plates, stones and documents relating to ordnance survey maps of the Irish Free State transferred from the Ordnance Survey Office, Southampton, to the Ordnance Survey Office, Phoenix Park, Dublin, during the year 1923-24. That list gives particulars of something over 40 tons of materials, but in it there are seven cases weighing half a ton and containing trigonometrical documents. I mention that perhaps for the satisfaction of Deputy Magennis. He may not have seen the record. These documents at any rate were sent away to Southampton apparently prior to the Treaty and were returned in the year 1923-24.

Vote put and agreed to.
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