Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 25 Jan 1927

Vol. 18 No. 1

NOTICES OF MOTION. - MOTION FOR RETURN AS TO REVENUE AND EXPENDITURE IN CERTAIN YEARS.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I beg to move:—

That a Return be presented to the Dáil showing—

(1) the total revenue collected by the British Government in all Ireland in the years 1913-14, 1914-15, 1916-17, 1918-19, and 1920-1921;

(2) the approximate amount of this revenue applicable to the present area of the Sáorstat;

(3) the total expenditure on Irish public services for the same years;

(4) the proportion of this expenditure applicable to the present area of the Saorstát;

(5) the taxation per head of the population of Ireland in the above years;

(6) the total expenditure by the Saorstát Government in the following years: 1922-23, 1923-24, 1924-25, and 1925-26;

(7) the total revenue collected in the Saorstát for these years;

(8) the taxation per head of the population in the Saorstát for these years.

Mr. BLYTHE

I wish to oppose this motion. The figures, so far as they are available at all, have already been published. The figures, for instance, for parts 1, 3, and 5 of the motion have been published by the British Government. In regard to parts 2 and 4, the figures are not really available. A certain attempt was made by the British Government to attribute the proportion available to Saorstát Eireann. The White Paper was published in connection with the Government of Ireland Act, 1920. The basis on which that attempt was made was complicated and could only be seen in the White Paper. The Deputy could examine that White Paper for himself. With regard to parts 6 and 7 of the motion, the details are available in the financial returns for the various years. In regard to part 8, a sum in division, which the Deputy might be able to do for himself, is necessary. I think really if the Deputy wants his speeches made, he should make them himself.

Mr. JOHNSON

I would like to ask the Minister whether, with a view to facilitating Deputies in the matter of finance returns and statistics generally, it has yet been decided to publish something in the nature of a statistical abstract, so that all matters of statistical information could be gathered together and made readily available. At present the position is that we have to go from one book to another, from one library to another, and sometimes from one Government department to another to seek out information, whereas, if there were a general volume of statistics gathered all that trouble might be saved and the advantage to Deputies and the public generally would be very considerable. I press that point of view on the Government—the necessity of having gathered into one volume the bulk of this statistical information.

Mr. BLYTHE

That matter has been discussed with the Department of Industry and Commerce, and it is intended that such a publication should be issued. It is somewhat difficult to get ahead with it yet, because the Statistical Department is burdened with the census of population, on which it is at present engaged, and it is taking a census of production. When these two big works have been disposed of what Deputy Johnson requires will be attended to. Whether anything could be done in the way of bringing statistics together, short of a complete abstract, is a matter that would require some consideration.

Mr. JOHNSON

It would require very little consideration. If the forms were produced in similar shape and size they could be gathered together into a folio.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

My point of view is very much similar to that of Deputy Johnson. A great deal, if not all, of this information is available to Deputies if they know where to get it. It is all very well for Ministers to direct Deputies like me to a White Paper published by the British Government in 1922, as was done to-day in answer to a question. I say that it is the duty of the Government, with their officials and staffs, to facilitate us in getting information which will be readily understandable. With regard to this particular information which I am asking for, the Minister, as usual, attributes my reasons for asking for it to certain causes which are not the causes. The Minister has a very ready way of arriving at conclusions as to what is at the back of Deputies' minds, but perhaps he is sometimes wrong. It may be understandable that Deputies desire to get information for information's sake. I want to get on record certain statements in regard to taxation, because we have had conflicting statements made in public by Ministers themselves, and I want to be able to get information that can be regarded as absolutely reliable.

The PRESIDENT

Perhaps the Deputy will give us some particulars of that—what the statements were and when they were made?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I am not dealing with particulars; I am dealing with the general question that statements have been made, for instance, by the President, with regard to reductions of taxation since the period of the British occupation, and these statements have been contradicted by other people.

The PRESIDENT

The Deputy has stated that conflicting statements were made by Ministers, and he has not developed that. That is what I would like him to develop—what they were. when were they made and who made them.

Mr. DAVIN

One was made by the President in the North of Ireland, when he stated, last week, that one million pounds was given as the beet subsidy when he should have stated two millions.

The PRESIDENT

The Deputy is wrong. He has not got the correct figures.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I may, perhaps, be wrong in saying that conflicting statements were made by Ministers. If that is so I will withdraw that part of it. But I will say this, that statements have been made by Ministers which they have not been able to back up afterwards. The President made a statement with regard to Irish finances about two years ago which he contradicted later; he changed the figures given, and changed them very materially. I want to get figures which will be authentic and which will not be changed by the President to suit the particular political requirements of his Party. The same answer cannot be given to this question as was given to the other, that the preparation of these figures would involve a great deal of trouble in the case of officials. I have been refused information to-day which I believe I am entitled to, information I am asking for in good faith, and I maintain a Deputy is entitled to get the information which is placed at the disposal of the members of the Government Party by the officials when they require it but which is not available to members of other Parties. I say, with regard to information which has been given in connection with the administration of departments of State, that members of any Party have as much right to get such information as members of the Government Party, and I resent considerably the attitude that has been taken up by Ministers in regard to my two motions to-day.

The PRESIDENT

I would like to correct the Deputy's recollection of a statement made by me some time ago. He said that I had to correct my figures. I had not. I think if the Deputy will look up the matter he will find that I explained in the communication which I sent to the Press afterwards that three or four words were left out of the statement. No figures were altered. The Deputy might take a little more care to make sure that his facts are correct before he makes statements. The information that has been given by me in reviewing the very incorrect figures which were given by a member of his Party were acquired from the speech of the Minister for Finance in the Dáil in connection with the Budget, and if the Deputy would pay some attention to that speech he would probably find as many figures in it as he requires.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

Why cannot Ministers give the same information to the House as they give in utterances in the country?

The PRESIDENT

I have told the Deputy that if he looks up the Minister's Budget speech he will get all the figures that I gave.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I will not get this information I am asking for in the Budget speech, or in any other speech.

Mr. DAVIN

Will the President say where he corrected the statement he made in Monaghan last week in connection with the beet subsidy?

The PRESIDENT

I have no recollection of that.

Mr. DAVIN

I am quoting the "Irish Independent." There is a difference of a million somewhere.

Question put.

The Dáil divided. Tá, 24; Níl, 33.

Tá

• John Conlan.
• Bryan R. Cooper.
• Séamus Mac Cosgair.
• Tomás Mac Eoin.
• Risteárd Mac Fheorais.
• Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha.
• Patrick McKenna.
• Risteárd Mac Liam.
• Tomás de Nógla.
• William Norton.
• Ailfrid O Broin.
• Criostóir O Broin.
• Aodh O Cúlacháin.
• Liam O Daimhín.
• Tadhg O Donnabháin.
• Eamon O Dubhghaill.
• Mícheál O Dubhghaill.
• Seán O Duinnín.
• Donnchadh O Guaire.
• Mícheál O hIfearnáin.
• Seán O Laidhin.
• Tadhg O Murchadha.
• Pádraig O hOgáin (An Clár).
• William A. Redmond.

Níl

• Earnán Altún.
• Earnán de Blaghd.
• Seoirse de Bhulbh.
• Séamus de Burca.
• Sir James Craig.
• Máighréad Ní Choileáin Bean
• Uí Dhrisceóil.
• Osmond Grattan Esmonde.
• Desmond Fitzgerald.
• Thomas Hennessy.
• Liam Mac Cosgair.
• Pádraig Mac Fadáin.
• Patrick McGilligan.
• Saoirse Mac Niocaill.
• Liam Mac Sioghaird.
• John T. Nolan.
• Peadar O hAodha.
• Seán O Bruadair.
• Parthalán O Conchubhair.
• Máirtín O Conalláin.
• Eoghan O Dochartaigh.
• Séamus O Dóláin.
• Peadar O Dubhghaill.
• Pádraig O Dubhtaigh.
• Eamon O Dúgáin.
• Fionán O Loingsigh.
• Risteárd O Maolchatha.
• Séamus O Murchadha.
• Pádraig O hOgáin (Gaillimh)
• Máirtín O Rodaigh.
• Seán O Súilleabháin.
• Caoimhghín O hUigín.
• Patrick W. Shaw.
• Liam Thrift.

Tellers.—Tá: Deputies Wilson and Davin. Níl: Deputies Dolan and P. S. Doyle.

Motion declared lost.