The Estimates, as presented by my Department, are given in detailed sub-heads. I intend to deal very slightly with the matters which have already appeared from time to time in certain discussions except only for a certain discussion which I want to initiate in connection with the Trade and Industries Branch and in connection with transport. Apart from that, I would like to call attention to new items which appear for the first time this year and about which I desire to give a brief explanation, as well as referring briefly to certain items from Sub-head B onwards when there seems to be any explanation required, mainly because of an increase. In regard to items which appear for the first time, there is one in respect of the Geological Survey. It is included for the first time under the Trade and Industries Branch of the Ministry. There are four other such items, namely, Sub-heads J, K, L and L L. Sub-heads K and L must be taken in conjunction with the transfer of the Geological Survey from the Department of Education to the Department of Industry and Commerce.
I am asking the House to vote £1,000 for the first time for preliminary investigation work, such as trial borings or the sinking of trial pits. I am also asking the House to vote £300 to meet expenses in connection with the visits of foreign industrial experts, invited to advise as to the promotion or development of industries in the Saorstát. I hold that both of these items, but more particularly the first, should be taken in conjunction with the Geological Survey. The item of expenses for mineral investigations is one on which I would like to speak very briefly, because I can see in the immediate future a large number of questions put down to me as to why investigations are not being made, or trial pits and borings made in certain areas, and where I would be informed in the questions that the people of the district knew that iron-ore, or some other mineral was to be found there. I do not intend to use this money for the purpose of having these borings or pits made or sunk unless there is in the background some possible undertaker, some commercial firm or body which is going to work it. I hold that that money is necessary, but necessary for a very limited use.
I have had experience, not of a great number of cases, but sufficient to show that there is need for some sums to be expended under the auspices of the Department in getting such trial borings made as are here described, in order to assure people who believe from the researches made by the Geological Survey that there are minerals in certain areas, and who want to have some further investigation made before they proceed to sink money of their own in any development work, but unless there is a commercial firm in the neighbourhood which intends to carry out some development work I do not intend to use this money simply for the purpose of getting information. The information will be collected by the Geological Survey, and this is in addition to the moneys the Geological Survey will expend itself, to be used in particular instances. I believe the use of it will be very limited. It will be only used where there is a definite chance of development in a particular place, where a firm is near at hand, and where there is evidence to go to show that the firm is seriously, minded and that there is a likelihood of development there.
With regard to industrial investigations, it has been found necessary to introduce a Vote of this sort. The sum asked for is very small, but it will probably be increased in other years. There should certainly be an increase in future years if any benefit accrues from the amount asked for this year. It was borne in on my Department in the course of investigations and conversations that they have had up and down the country with a view to stimulating industrial efforts, that there are certain cases where one thing is wanted, and that is that there should be brought to the spot people who are running industries successfully elsewhere, industries which seem suitable for this country, but without having somebody on the spot to be brought into touch with people who are likely to open up an industry there does not seem to be any reasonable prospect of getting such an industry established there. There is the other side, that there will be very often investigations, necessary investigations, made for the most part by officers of my Department into industries in foreign countries to see what progress is being made there or how some handicap is being met that is retarding development. Whatever expenses have to be incurred by officials of my own Department for the purposes of making investigations and putting the results of those investigations before prospective developing companies will, of course, be met out of the sub-head regarding travelling expenses. This Vote has to be introduced because there is no other Vote out of which expenditure may be incurred for the bringing over to this country of investigators and industrial experts to give advice and who, having made investigations on the spot, will find out if there is anything inherently wrong with a projected industry, what the handicap is, and how that handicap can best be removed.
It is obvious from the limited amount asked for that this sum is not to be used to pay fees to the people who are brought over. It is simply to pay travelling expenses and subsistence. We have often found in many of these international conferences that one gets very valuable contacts, that one gets into touch with people about whom the statement may be made that a great value would accrue to this country simply from a visit of those people. Similarly we very often meet people who are sufficiently interested to come here, but not in the position of feed industrial experts. We think that we should have some fund out of which we could meet the travelling expenses and the subsistence allowances for whatever period these people remain in the country. For that purpose this £300 will be devoted.
With regard to sub-head LL—cinematograph films—a sum of £500 is asked for to make provision for the filming of Saorstát industrial attractions. From time to time I have been appealed to by our trade representatives abroad, more particularly those in the United States and our representative in Brussels, that we should have ready for their use a film which in the first instance was supposed to be for the purpose of inducing tourists to come into the country, but when the proposition was examined further, it was ascertained that people were enquiring as to the possibilities here, people who wanted to have shown to them whatever there was of industrial life and activity in the country. These people definitely gave it to us as their belief that the exhibition of such films would lead to certain developments here. Arising out of that, after the suggestion was first made, a conference was held of all the heads of the Department who necessarily would have to agree and to co-operate in the making of such a film. Certain industrial people outside were also consulted, and they were all agreed that there was good value to be got from a film of this sort if it could be produced in an attractive form.
I am asking for the sum of £500. That film will be prepared and actually got up, but still remains to be considered. A considerable amount of investigation has gone on as to what should be included in it. We have had promises of co-operation, I do not say in a monetary but in every other sense, and it is expected the £500 will cover anything that is anticipated in the near future. Similarly in connection with item J—Industrial Fairs—which provides a sum of £500 to meet the costs of industrial fairs and exhibitions. Item C simply means any exhibit of agricultural produce can be met out of other moneys. It is not meant that we envisage fairs and exhibitions in which agricultural products will not be shown. It should be remembered in considering this item also that if there were any big international exhibition in which it was thought fit to participate it would ordinarily be brought to this House and the sum of money likely to be expended would be agreed to. This is simply to meet an occasional small fair or exhibition which comes up two or three times during the course of any one year and where we would like to have a sum of money on hands. In case sites were taken and exhibits had to be prepared and got together and other arrangements begun at short notice, it would obviate the necessity in each instance for coming to the Dáil to ask that such and such a fair should be sanctioned and money voted for it.
It is simply to have a fund of £500 to meet the expenditure likely to be incurred in exhibiting Saorstát products at smaller commercial fairs and exhibitions. The other items outside sub-head A, I think, explain themselves. The travelling expenses item is up slightly this year, because there is included in it a sum in substitution of the amount of £250 which used to be voted to the old Vote of the Geological Survey Office. There is also included in it provision for extra sums of money to meet the possible cost of officials of my own who have to travel across when any industrial investigation is on foot arising out of which experts visit this country and concerning which it is proposed to get special information. Incidental expenses show an increase by reason of the fact that there used to be a separate Vote for incidental expenses belonging to the Geological Survey. The main purpose of expenditure was for provision of instruments for use in the fields.
Telegrams and telephones are always founded on the experience of the previous year. The item of £10 is more or less a token Vote. There has not been any expenditure even to the amount of £10 for some years past. The next item is much the same, Fees and Expenses of Medical Referees. That will depend entirely on the number of cases taken to the court on foot of which payment has to be made through a medical referee under the Workmen's Compensation Act, and cases under Special Service Inquiries, etc. The item—Subscription to the International Union for Protection of Industrial Property—has disappeared from this Vote and finds its place in the Industrial and Commercial Property Office Vote. The others are as they were in previous years, excepting subscriptions to the International Institution of Statistics and the International Commission for Air Navigation, in both of which cases expenditure is now proposed for the first time. These two institutions explain themselves. I may say in regard to these international associations, of which we are members, that the subscription covers the procuring of documents and it is considered, even if only for the documents alone, that the subscription is very well worth while.
Item H explains itself. The prize has never been won, and it is offered from year to year. Item J.1 shows a slight increase, which depends not on any budgetary arrangement here but on that of the League of Nations. The Saorstát contribution, both with regard to the League of Nations and the International Labour Office, is made out on the basis of paying ten units out of 987. When the League Budget increases our fraction of the contribution goes up too. That means that this year the League Budget has shown an increase. Item II is, of course, simply a re-vote of the money voted the previous year. The gift has not been given; it is under consideration. The other items are the four new ones I have explained, and the appropriations-in-aid do not call for any special comment.
(A.) Under Appropriations-in-Aid this grant was caused by performing certain work in connection with the training of disabled soldiers. We got paid exactly for the work done. There are fewer people getting payment at the moment and it is expected that the payment this year will be considerably less than any other year. Item D. under Appropriations-in-Aid is a new item. It means that in certain of the details to sub-head A. officials are shown as being on loan to the Shannon Power Development Office. In that case, of course, the expenses of these people are borne on the Shannon Power Development Fund, which has to repay to the Department the amount of salaries each year of the officials lent to them, plus a percentage to cover the superannuation of the officials.
Item (E), of £50, is expected to be the receipts accruing from industrial fairs and exhibitions. If any money were expended under the £500 voted under (J), if the Department of Industry and Commerce took a place or had any exhibition or fair, we would sell a space to the exhibitors and recover certain fees from them, but it will be observed that not much is expected. In this country, so far, it has been difficult to get industrialists to see any value in these fairs and exhibits, or to advertise themselves in that way. Under sub-head A.—Statistics Branch —the Statistics Branch is a branch of my Department best known to Deputies on account of the work it has done, and on account of the frequent calls to that office by Deputies intent on getting certain information. I do not propose to deal in detail with the expenditure set out here; if any questions happen to arise out of definite items I am prepared to answer them, but with regard to the work ahead as to when the results of the work that has been done may be expected, I will simply say the first volume of final figures resulting from the Census of Population will be published next week and will contain 135 pages of tabular matter showing the numbers of males and females in each larger administrative area, in each electoral area, in each town down to the smallest "cluster of 20 houses or more," and special tables showing birth, death, marriage and other rates for superintendent registrars districts, etc. The second volume should appear six or eight weeks after the first volume, and will show the numbers of males and females following each occupation in the Irish Free State in each province and county, in each town of over 1,500 inhabitants, and in each rural district. After these two volumes have appeared further volumes will be issued at short intervals dealing with industries, ages and conjugal condition, Irish language and the Gaeltacht, unemployment, religion, housing, birthplace, fertility and dependency. After about a month's time preliminary reports on individual industries will be issued in neo-style form at the rate of about two a week to the Oireachtas, to the Press and to the manufacturers covered by the returns until each of the forty groups of industries dealt with in the Census of Production have thus been completed. It is hoped that the final report on this Census, including figures in respect of all the industries, and in respect of agriculture, will be issued before the end of the year.
The first ten reports will deal with the boot and shoe industry, the soap and candle industry, the tobacco industry, the woollen and worsted industries, the brewing and malting industries, the distilling industry, the fertiliser industry, the bacon-curing industry, the seed-crushing industry, and the sugar confectionery and jam-making industries. I know that there is a certain amount, I cannot say of dissatisfaction, but of inquiries going on as to why these volumes have been delayed so long. Some of them, indeed, were ready for issue many weeks ago, but it was found that certain difficulties had arisen, difficulties in connection with the placing of the contract for the printing of the volumes. It must be realised that there is a vast amount of printing to be done, and that the Stationery Office had some difficulty in making the printing contracts in the way that seemed to them to be the most suitable. These issues are now defined, and the printing will soon take place. To those who will insist on making comparisons with the census taken in Northern Ireland and elsewhere, and the speed with which these volumes in other places have been produced. I can only say that people should defer judgment until they see the exact type of document and volume of return that is produced here, and say, before making up their minds, as to whether it was not worth while waiting for the better classified information that the Statistical Branch is going to produce. I must ask them to suspend their judgment a little while. I can assure them that there was no delay on the part of the Statistical Branch that was not inevitable. I am sure also that there was no delay on the part of the Stationery Office responsible for the printing of the volumes. I have asked Deputies to assist in having this information produced at the earliest possible moment by refraining from asking for statistical information, which, of course, could be given, but which would mean that the Director of Statistics and his whole staff would be taken from the regular procedure with regard to this production, if they had to supply detailed information. I hope Deputies will assist, as they have done up to now, by refraining from getting that out-of-context information until such time as the volumes have appeared.
The trade and industrial branch is a branch with which I would like to deal. I have already referred to the geological survey which, for the first time, is included in this branch and is included for this reason that there has been an appreciable quickening of interest in the prospect of mineral development in the country. I say that because I have had many more applications in regard to mineral development recently than there have been for some time past. In that connection, I have always had to point out to investigators the difficulty I am in with regard to a particular Article of the Constitution and the fact that legislation implementing that Article had not been brought in. That legislation is at present being considered; part of it, in fact, has definitely left the Department's hands, but there is no hope of having it introduced before the autumn session. I hope that before Christmas there will be no obstacle, as far as this House can take away that obstacle, in the path of those who wish to proceed with any mineral developments.
In order to make ready against the time when I think there will be a certain development work done with regard to minerals it was thought fit to have the Geological Survey transferred, so that the work of the Geological Survey which has hitherto been of a scientific and research type will be directed more to the commercial possibilities of certain minerals in the country. It is felt that the Geological Survey, as at present organised and as previously run, did its work without any immediate reaction towards the commercial possibilities of development. For the future, we want two sides of the Department's work looked to. We will try to have it that the commercial possibilities will be the main thing to which they will look, that field surveys and work in other respects can go on as before but that always there will be the reaction to the commercial side and the possibility of development.
There is a trade and industries branch generally. As I have been asked a considerable number of questions in connection with the work of this section. I propose to deal with it in detail. I will just state, in as brief a way as I can, the work this branch has got through. I will then ask Deputies to consider what has been done and I will ask them to put up suggestions as to what other work should be undertaken by this particular branch of the Department with a view to stimulating the industrial development of the country. It must be realised at the beginning that when this Ministry was founded there was no administrative machinery for dealing with either industrial or mineral development. Consequently when the Ministry was established it was thought the first step necessary was to make a survey of existing industries and in particular to discover how they stood in comparison with their position in 1914. In order to get first-hand information, it was decided to approach each industry and in cases where there was no organnisation covering the whole country, to summon a meeting either of the several organisations which existed or of all the firms engaged in the industry and ask such a meeting to nominate four, five or six representatives who could speak authoritatively for that industry. Regular meetings of these committees have been held since, and in this way first-hand information on the state of each industry has been obtained, as well as what, in the view of those engaged in the industry, would assist towards reviving or stimulating the industry.
Industrial Advisory Committees have been set up for about 35 industries and as a result the Department has obtained comprehensive reports on the general conditions under which industry is carried on and at the same time the meetings have assisted towards promoting organisation amongst those engaged in industry, where organisation had not previously existed.
In some cases joint meetings have been held with representatives of the workers engaged in the various industries. At such joint meetings it is the practice to exclude discussions on wage questions, but all other aspects of the industry have been frankly discussed. It might be noted here that this machinery has been warmly welcomed by the industries concerned and members have been content to travel from distant parts of the country two or three times yearly, entirely at their own expense, in order to attend meetings.
Prior to the appointment of the Tariff Commission, the Branch had a duty of receiving applications for the imposition of a protective duty. Where such applications emanated from a single firm or several firms an industrial advisory committee was immediately formed for that industry, so that the members could speak for the whole group, and it was the industrial advisory committee which prepared and submitted applications in the first instance to this Department. A considerable amount of detailed work was got through in that way prior to the establishment of the Tariff Commission, and the result of it has been seen in this way, that even since the establishment of the Tariff Commission applicants who are making their appearance before the Tariff Commission have come to my Department for several kinds of information and have made use of it before the Tariff Commission in regard to conditions, rates of wages, and other matters in such and such an industry. At the same time there have been applications made to the Branch from time to time by the Tariff Commission, and they have made use of the information which the Branch collected before the Tariff Commission itself was set up. The Branch also has the duty of reporting twice a year on the state of employment in each of the protected industries, and this has been done largely through the machinery of the advisory committees in those industries.
All machinery at the disposal of the Branch, that is to say, the industrial advisory committees, conciliation meetings and conferences of other types, as well as reports prepared by officers travelling through the country on various official duties, are used in order to prepare a survey of the existing industrial position, with as full details as possible of each industry in the country, giving a picture of the general economic conditions under which industry is carried on, including every aspect of its interests—for example, wage and labour conditions, supplies of raw material, markets at home and abroad, etc. Such information is kept up to date by preserving as intimate contact as possible with each industry. It is becoming almost a practice with any industry which finds itself confronted with new difficulties of any type, so long as they are difficulties of a general character and not confined to a particular firm, to discuss these with officers of the Branch either at a formal meeting of the Industrial Advisory Committee or informally. It can be stated that hardly any change of any consequence affecting the welfare of an industry passes unrecorded.
When asking for sanction to the appointment of certain types of inspectors I said that I proposed in future to use any inspector appointed, no matter for what purpose—Trade Board Regulations, factory inspection or anything else—as a general reporter on industry in the country as he found it in the course of his duty. The scheme that was then put forward in a tentative way has in fact worked out very well. A considerable number of journeys have to be made up and down the country by officials of mine to attend conciliation meetings, to see to the carrying out of the Trade Board Regulations and to make inspections in the factories and workshops, and wherever these people have any time at their disposal they are expected and do look into the conditions of industry as they find them in a particular locality and report on anything that requires attention, and as to which an investigation could be started likely to lead to useful results. The first object aimed at, namely, compilation of a general industrial survey is almost completed and needs only the figures which will be made available for the Census of Production to be regarded as complete for the moment. Any consideration of policy can proceed on the basis of this information, as the standpoint in preparing the survey has been the possibility of improving the conditions under which existing industries are carried on and discovering in what way by Government action they can be stimulated. The task already described for making an industrial survey is regarded as the first step towards considering what should or could be done in the way of fostering industrial development. At every meeting of each of the Industrial Advisory Committees the question of ways and means of helping existing industry is always discussed. In general principle a protective tariff was regarded by most of the industries as the correct panacea. This aspect of the matter has been dealt with by the establishment of the Tariff Commission.
Another question which cropped up frequently in the early days was the provision of industrial credits. This was dealt with to some extent at least by the Trade Loans (Guarantee) Acts. The work done under this heading by the Branch is included in the statutory duties of the Branch but must be mentioned here as the only powers which the Department has to assist industrial development financially. On frequent occasions, in informal ways, people and firms have been brought together in such a way as to secure financial easement to a company or make available funds for expansion. That work although carried on in that informal way has had successful results in cases.
At the moment it is proposed to extend the Trade Loans Guarantee Act for a further year. The legislation, in fact, would have been before the House only for the fact that it depends to a certain extent on the discussion which is to take place on the Report of the Public Accounts Committee. When that legislation does come forward, I shall bring it forward not as meaning the last word with regard to the provision of industrial credit, but simply because it is a matter which it has been decided to try out—a matter which has not been as productive of results as was hoped or expected, but it is a piece of legislation about which I have asked for advice on many occasions and which, in fact, these advisory committees have had brought to their notice from time to time, but we have not yet been able to get any serious proposition as to how that Act could be amended so as to secure better development than has actually accrued from it.
In a great many other ways information was obtained or assistance given to firms in connection with such matters as supplies of raw material, markets abroad, arrangements for joint conferences with ancillary and subsidiary industries, relief from troublesome customs, or other official procedure which was found capable of adjustment. In one particular way the information collected by the Branch has proved very helpful to individual firms desirous of expanding their business or entering upon a new line of business. There is no organisation in the industries themselves, with very few exceptions, which compiles the kind of information available in the Branch, that is to say, estimates of total consumption, estimates of how far existing producing units meet the total consumption, either in all the products or in different grades of the products. Frequently this information and the advice based on it have been found of great value. Lists of available factories and factory sites are kept in the Branch with notes as to the general facilities available in the neighbourhood for certain types of industries.
In addition to making a survey of existing industries in the country and examining their possibilities of development, time has been given to compile information on various industries which might, if circumstances were favourable, be established. Contact has been made with many firms in Great Britain and abroad and conversations conducted with a view to proper consideration of the conditions under which certain industries could be established. In some cases, such as artificial silk, cement, kelp, etc., exhaustive inquiries have been made and very full information is available. There are at least three cases in which inquiries were made and information supplied which have led to people taking up seriously the idea of starting an industry that is more or less new in the country, but these matters are under discussion in certain ways and I do not like to go into them now. Information as to the general conditions necessary for the establishment of a great many new industries has been compiled, and in this way suggestions made from time to time by people proposing to be engaged in such industries can be usefully checked and tested.
A steady effort has been made since 1923 to use the purchasing powers of the various Government departments for the purpose of assisting to maintain existing Irish industries. At the suggestion of this Department the Government Contracts Committee was appointed, of which an official of this Branch is a member. Each contract is scanned from the point of view of making sure that few contracts, if any, leave the country for goods which can, in fact, be made in the country. This duty entails a considerable amount of work, and led to a very big amount of very useful work being done in the country which otherwise might have left it.
In order to complete the industrial survey described already, and as far as possible to view the industrial situation geographically as well as from a general economic point of view, arrangements have been made to visit the principal towns in the Saorstát and, by calling a meeting of the principal business men in the town, obtain at first hand information as to how the town stands industrially, whether it has retrograded or progressed, and what local feeling is as to what financial resources would be available for any new industrial development, and what local conditions are from the point of view of choice of the new development to be considered. These visits are being at present paid and, so far, they have been welcomed everywhere. The general idea in this is that one would get some appreciation of industry as it previously existed in a town, get a particular, definite view of factories or sites available, and attempt to get in close conjunction in each town with the man who has some technical knowledge of industry, the man who may not have technical knowledge, but has good business experience, plus the local gentleman with a certain amount of capital to spare. An effort is being made unceasingly to get, in every town in which visits are made, an appreciation of the fact that where Government help is needed it will be given under the existing conditions, to point out to the people that they must depend on their own local knowledge and local enterprise, but that they can be favoured and fostered in many ways.
The work under the heading of Commercial and Trade Development moves pari passu with the work under the heading of Industrial Development. Although not much can be done to assist the sale of Irish-made goods in the home market, every opportunity is taken to draw the attention of large consumers to any article made in the country, and to the advantages either in price or quality which the article happens to possess. At the meetings of the Industrial and Advisory Committees the possibility of using more largely Irish made goods has been brought to the attention of industries which use such goods, and in some cases joint meetings held with the Advisory Committee representing the makers of these goods. A very special example might be cited here. It was found possible to get the wholesale furniture people into touch with the manufacturers of furniture in the Saorstát, with the result that a considerable amount of orders which, I fear, otherwise would have been placed outside the country, have been located with home firms.
Cases have occurred where firms have written asking for the names of suppliers in Great Britain or abroad of certain classes of goods, and the opportunity was taken to draw their attention to the fact that these goods of good quality and price were available in the country. The bulk of the efforts of the Branch under this heading is directed, however, towards finding markets outside the Saorstát for Saorstát products. This involves, in the first case, the preparation of exact information as to the tariffs levied on various classes of goods in different countries. A great deal of use is made of the Branch by commercial firms throughout the country. The compilation of this information is a rather troublesome duty requiring very careful work. Not only have foreign tariffs to be studied closely, but constant correspondence has to be carried on with our representatives abroad and with others in order to confirm and, in many cases, interpret such information.
A duty of a somewhat similar type has to be performed by compiling lists of firms, particularly in those countries where we have commercial representatives, prepared to act as selling agents for Saorstát goods. Particulars of the commercial and financial standing of these firms have to be obtained and the information so made available conveyed to such firms and bodies in the country as can make proper use of it.
Trade representatives have been appointed in New York. Paris, Brussels and London, and it is only in these countries that the regular machinery of direct inquiry can operate. For other countries recourse is had to the ordinary commercial and inquiry agencies. The trade representatives abroad have imposed on them the duty of pursuing inquiries as to possible outlets for Saorstát products; of reporting on the financial and commercial standing of firms proposing to do business for Saorstát firms; of intervening in commercial disputes where one of the parties is a Saorstát citizen; of taking steps to prevent the improper use of Irish trade marks or trade descriptions or of marks suggestive of Irish origin; and of reporting on the conditions under which certain industries are carried on in the country to which they are attached. Generally, the trade representatives keep the Department informed as to the economic conditions of the country to which they are attached and of any new developments which might have some bearing on, or interest for, Irish firms.
As part of the Branch's activities in assisting towards more extended marketing of Saorstát products abroad, consideration has to be given to the possibility of Saorstát producers participating in certain fairs and exhibitions of a commercial character held in Great Britain and in Europe. Considerable work is entailed in this, as Saorstát producers have to be induced to participate and the financial arrangements are in some cases somewhat complicated, and, generally, the duty of advising on, and carrying out, any actual participation involves considerable responsibility.
The duty of considering and advising upon the making of commercial treaties rests on this Branch. Although I have not yet been able to bring forward any commercial treaty for ratification by this House, a considerable amount of spade work is necessary to clear the ground. A large number of treaties were inherited and these have all had to be examined, so as to see if they fit in with the conditions which it is hoped to be seen operating in the country, and to see, at any rate, that if any commercial treaty is made it will not contain any clause or schedule of articles which might hereafter operate as a hindrance to industrial development here. We have also to supply intelligence with regard to commercial and industrial development everywhere to every department or branch of my own department likely to make use of it, and to supply material for and to take over the editing of the "Trade Journal."
I find myself, in connection with this Branch, definitely at times brought up against a claim that because new industries are not springing up it is the fault of the Government and particularly of this Department, and that because businesses or industries here may from time to time disappear that must be regarded as a blot upon the activity of the Department. With regard to the disappearance of business or industry any business which has disappeared has to be examined as an individual case with or without any Government failure either to come, or not to come, to its aid, or whether its disappearance was due to its own failure. One should remember that the disappearance of certain businesses actually and definitely marks progress and improvement in certain directions. I know that there could be got together a considerable list of businesses where, if one set out from house to house, one could enumerate a certain number of disappearances. I have seen such a list, and I have seen on such list gathered together into one firm three or four branch offices of one head house, and where the one firm now produces everything that was formerly produced in the three subsidiary businesses. Upon the list made out previously, each of the houses counted separately; and although that might amount, on such a list, to three black marks as absences of business against the Government, it would in fact mark progress, because it afforded marked appreciation of the idea that the gathering together of production into one economic unit gives the producer a better chance of keeping the home market and obtaining markets abroad by reduced overhead charges and so on. But, in any event, I would not admit, and do not admit, that a mere enumeration of businesses that have gone out, or of industries that have gone out, or the mere statement that such and such an industry used to be carried on and is not now, and such an industry might be established under conditions rather vaguely described— I would not admit that any of these statements were criticisms of this Department.
In the end any industrial enterprise is going to depend upon having proper men to take charge of the industry. Outside that, these individuals, if and when they come, could be helped by having conditions made suitable. Let us survey what are the conditions that are likely to bring industrialists here, and let each of the people concerned bear his proper part in seeing that conditions are so modified that at the beginning any industry that can be established will have a proper chance. In a country which has a monopoly of some raw material obviously there is an immediate chance for development. Let it be pointed out where we have a monopoly of any particular raw material, and where a chance of development in favour of it is not given. After that survey let us proceed along the lines of inquiring: is there sufficient training and ability in coping with competition to substitute for that monopoly, or practical monopoly, of some raw material? And even when one gets training and ability to cope with competition and enterprise these things might all be spoiled by adverse conditions, such as the location of buildings, whether the wrong spot has been selected, or whether one more suitable might not have been selected having regard to transport. The transport charges may be such as to operate against an industry backed up by the greatest enterprise. Labour and wages may operate against other advantageous conditions. The bringing in of the raw material, where the raw material is not found at home, and the conditions under which the manufactured article is afterwards exported, are all things that must be taken into consideration. These are things upon which Government action can have very little and certainly no effect if the people concerned are antagonistic.
I have to meet with another criticism in connection with this branch which, at least, I am elevating as the development branch of the Ministry in order to meet a point previously made. I am told that there is too much money spent upon statutory work and enforcement and not enough in connection with development work.
If that means that one ought to strike arbitrarily some proportion as between moneys to be spent on what is called enforcement or statutory obligation work, and moneys for development, there might be a case made that the division of the moneys voted to the Department under this Vote was rather badly placed as between what is called the enforcement side and the development side. But remember it is this Dáil which insists upon the statutory side. Where statutory conditions are imposed upon officials of my Department they have been imposed upon them by this House or some previous House, or by laws accepted by this or a previous Dáil. Unless it is being argued that inspection and enforcement work should be dropped, and that the money which is being paid to factory inspectors and Trade Board inspectors should be taken from them and handed over to people who will be vaguely set what is called development work, I do not know what is meant.
I did hear a phrase used one day to the effect that if the five millions that were put into the Shannon scheme were put into industrial work, look at what would have happened. How would the money be spent? If that five million were available, how would it be put into industrial work? Is it that there would be more subsidies to industry, and, if so, on what basis would they be given? Does it mean that the Government should go into business, establish factories, proceed to get works and hire business men to run the works, and that that money should be spent in that way? Or does it mean that larger sums should be supplied under the Trades Loans Act? That would be a foolish suggestion, seeing that all the money there has not been utilised. I would like to have it explained, when people speak of putting the five millions into industry, how, exactly, it was to be put into industry. Was it that the Government was to take up industry on its own, say, by some method of subsidies, by handing over largesse to some established industries and saying: "You spend that money, and we believe in a year or two things will be right and we will get a return for our money by increased revenue or some other indirect way," and if people speak of the proportion of money that may be spent in the development as compared with enforcement and obligatory work, the only way to end that is to repeal some of the statutes that imposed these duties upon officials in regard to inspection. When people say there are no visible results from the amount of money spent in the enforcement of statutes, is that argument really seriously advanced? There surely are visible results in the absence of the sweating conditions that the Trade Board Acts set out to prevent, and in the reduction of the number of accidents that factory inspection was instituted to prevent. There are visible results from almost every statutory obligation put upon any of the officials of my Department, and if it is thought that these statutory obligations are too oppressive, or that too much money is spent in the enforcement of them, the only way to meet that argument is the repeal of the statutes that enforce those obligations. I do not think that the particular statutes that are going to be enforced are such that there will be any necessity to repeal them. I think it will be found by anyone who considers the situation that the Trade Board Acts and the Factory Inspection Acts do good.
It must be remembered that through the operations of these inspectors and officials, who journey up and down the country frequently and who are in the closest possible touch with industry and know the conditions in the small towns they have to visit and inspect in the most thoroughgoing way, that we are able to collect information through the country and disseminate it to the people who are likely to need it, to people in the country and to people abroad who are likely to come in. Through the statutory activities of these officials, there is an amount of material got together for use at headquarters and for dissemination to people through the country and the people from abroad who may come in.
There is in this Vote a sum of money voted to the Transport and Marine Branch of my Ministry. I was asked on a previous occasion if I considered that the Railways Act of 1924 had done good and what further steps were to be taken with regard to transport. On this matter I must be brief. I claim emphatically that the Railways Act of 1924 has done tremendous good and that it has shown good results even at the present moment. The first advantage accruing to the public from that Act was that on the 1st January, 1925, there was imposed by the Railway Tribunal a reduction on railway charges and freights—a remarkable drop of 12½ per cent. on passenger fares and 10 per cent. on goods freights. I consider, further, it was an advantage to certain parts of the country, in fact to the country as a whole, in the abolition of the baronial guarantees, which proved so burdensome to the guaranteeing areas and in some cases was more than the ratepayers could very well bear. It is objected that the easing or appeasing of their situation has been brought about by throwing the burden upon the general railway shareholders and passengers. That may be the case. At any rate it was a spreading of the burden. That burden was spread in another way that I will refer to later. I think people should take an example from the Listowel and Ballybunion Railway, deceased, and from the Dublin and Lucan Electric Tramway, or Railway, almost definitely deceased, but now being resurrected in another way. If people consider that if the baronial guarantees had not been placed on the shoulders of the general public there would be certain areas in the country in which there would to-day be no railway transport. In fact, the amalgamation scheme preserved transport in certain backward areas in the country. Most of these baronial guaranteed areas would have suffered the same fate as the Listowel and Ballybunion Railway were it not for the amalgamation scheme.
There has been a new classification of merchandise which is definitely settled in line with Irish requirements. The standard conditions of carriage have been settled and the amount of the standard revenue the company can earn has been definitely decided, and the rates charged by the company in order to earn that revenue have been decided also.
That definition has involved the subtraction of £400,000 from the expenditure that the railway company wanted to have established. In addition to that there is this matter which must be taken into consideration, and that is that since the passing of the Railways Act of 1924 there has been a considerable saving. If you take the cost of the running for 1924, the last year of the amalgamated and absorbed companies, and compare that with the expenditure in 1927 you will find a decrease to the amount of £777,000. In other words, the economies that have been effected under the amalgamation run to £777,000. If one looks at that amount and the amount of money required to pay, say, the guaranteed and preference shareholders and that the payments on the ordinary stock could be met out of £777,000, one gets a true reflex of the advantage that amalgamation has been to the company. There is one further point that has to be made about the Railways Act. I do not think that to-day there is any well-informed opinion against amalgamation. The objections that were held to amalgamation at one time have disappeared. In fact, the objection now appears in a different form. At the time the amalgamation was going on certain people opposed to the amalgamation process said that one thing that was to be destroyed by the amalgamation was the competition that hitherto prevailed between the railway companies. It was pointed out that there was, in fact, no competition against the railway companies, that the railway lines, as situated, did not allow of competition. Now the argument is gone to the other extreme. The amalgamated company is now faced with competition that we are told is wasteful, and that the element that provides that competition should be harnessed and brought under control. Since the amalgamation there has arisen a new competitor to the railway, a competitor that was not thought of in 1924. That competitor has now reached his present dimensions and stature. That is the competition from the road motor vehicles. That competition has had a considerable effect in withdrawing moneys from the revenue of the Great Southern Railways Company. If that goes on the standard revenue provided under the Railways Act is now impossible of attainment, and it would be inequitable to the railway company to allow its being maintained. In other words, if passengers pass from the rails to the roads then the amalgamated company should be enabled to adjust itself to the situation.
The amalgamated company should make the carrying of goods its chief concern and not set out to be, as in the past, a passenger-carrying service. That is one of the things of the future. If, as has been claimed officially by the railway company, certain travellers and passengers are irretrievably lost, then it will mean that the railway situation will have to be regarded from another angle. At the moment there is a continuous clamour for coordination or control of transport, and that cry seems to include all transport. And when people speak of the defection of passengers from the railway system to the roads they speak as if entirely the case is that the passengers had gone on to the buses, that they had gone to the transport companies. That is not so. In fact, the greatest drain on the railway system is not so much the motor buses as the private motor car. The drain from the railway companies is not at all so much due to the proportion of its traffic that has been taken by the bus companies. The bus is a serious competitor, and I am not going to minimise that at all. But public opinion seems to regard the bus as almost the only competitor, and seems to think that the private car plays no part in taking the traffic away from the railway company. It does play a big part. And it must be remembered in this connection that the receipts in the last couple of years have not shown that there is any great decrease with regard to merchandise generally and live stock in the matter of transport. One may say that the situation is either the same or has improved. There is no pessimism with regard to that. It is only the drop in the passenger receipts which is serious. That has to be put in conjunction with the argument recently put forward about control. The question in regard to control is, is that control to operate with regard to the public-owned passenger-carrying motor vehicles? One obviously is not to control the private car. One cannot control the car which a man uses on the public highway when the highway is there for him, when he meets the charges with respect to that highway. One cannot say to such a man owning a private car—whether it is a car or a lorry—that he should not use that car which he has paid for and bought at his own private expense. Otherwise one would have to face the rather revolutionary proposal that a firm owning lorries and proposing to carry stuff over the roads should be prohibited from doing so; that they should be told they could only carry stuff to the nearest railway station to be transported again to the station nearest the place at which the goods were to be delivered, and that then they could have the use of a motor vehicle there if they liked. Such a proposition would be ludicrous, and it would be certainly ludicrous in the case of the private car-owner who would be conveying himself and his family and friends from his residence to town.
Therefore, it means that there are two public transport services under consideration. That, again, will have to be divided into its various aspects. Undoubtedly there ought to be better control of the public transport services than at the moment in regard to regulations concerning the safety of the public in the buses and the people using the highway along with the omnibuses. There is at present under consideration by a Departmental Combuses, and, possibly, better regulations with regard to the speed of motor 'buses, and, possibly, better regulations with regard to their width and length, and also better regulations as to the convenience and safeguarding of the lives of the passengers, drivers and conductors. That is one aspect of this matter which can be dealt with by itself, and which is being dealt with, I had hopes that the Committee would have reported by this time, and we could have before the Dáil whatever the recommendations of that Committee are with regard to these matters. Undoubtedly, that is a matter that can be dealt with by itself.
Then comes the question of the suitability of the buses for certain types of roads and how the roads are going to bear—not the weight, because that is another matter—the passage of certain buses operating along them at frequent intervals. There is the question whether the vehicles are too wide for the narrow roads, and so forth, and there are matters with regard to the safeguarding regulations. The financial side is a matter that can be dealt with from an aspect by itself.
It must be remembered there was a policy established with regard to motor taxation and the Road Fund. There was a policy established and announced in this House two years ago, and it amounted to this: that one took the roads as they were in 1914, when there was little or no motor traffic, nothing relative to what it is at present. It was thought possible to find out what the roads then cost with regard to their making and upkeep. Whatever moneys were expended on the roads in 1914 were mainly contributed by the ratepayer, because the motor taxation was inequitable at the time. The ratepayer is equalised with the farmer for this purpose. What we did was, we took the farmers' selling costs of two years ago as compared with the selling costs in 1914. We said we would apportion against the ratepayer the amount that the ratepayer used to contribute for the maintenance and upkeep of the roads in 1914, increased by whatever percentage the farmers' selling costs of two years ago showed in comparison with the 1914 selling costs. In other words, we would put the ratepayer in the country in the same position as in 1914, and if he gets a better price for his stuff we increase what he used to pay proportionately; we equalise with the current values at the moment, and everything beyond that has to be met by motor taxation. That has been the policy for the last two years. If the roads are going to be torn up by unnecessary bus services, these services will meet the cost of the wear and tear by payments enforced against them. That is the position as it stands.
There is one defect in that plan, and that is the incidence of the portion of the moneys which has to be met out of motor taxation as between the private owner and the commercial vehicle, the public transport passenger-carrying services. That is again, at the moment, being looked into. Supposing a better adjustment is made, one that is regarded as equitable in the sense that one takes the percentage of damage done to the roads by the heavy bus traffic and sees that of the moneys to be paid out of motor taxation for the upkeep of the road, an adequate proportion will be taken from those who run buses along the roads, then the situation is equalised. The ratepayer pays no more than in 1914. He was satisfied with the types of roads in 1914.
