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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 18 Jul 1928

Vol. 25 No. 6

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE. VOTE No. 57—RAILWAYS.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim bhreise ná raghaidh thar £5,000 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1929, chun íocaíochtanna fé Acht na mBóthar Iarainn, 1924, fén Tramways and Public Companies (Ireland) Act, 1883, etc., agus chun crícheanna eile a bhaineam le hIompar in Eirinn.

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £5,000 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for payments under the Railways Act, 1924, the Tramways and Public Companies (Ireland) Act, 1883, etc., and for other purposes connected with Irish transport.

Has the Minister any explanation to give for presenting to the House this Estimate in its present form?

This is the usual form. This Estimate is presented about this time of the year, and I would have thought that no great explanation would be necessary to justify it. The only explanation now is that the amount required this year has been reduced to £5,000, which is £1,000 more than the amount which the officials of the Department who investigated the working of the line in 1927 estimated as the amount that would be required. To call this a subsidy is, I think, as I made clear before. wrongly to apply that term to the Vote. It is to be noted that the moneys are granted for the working of three Government lines in Donegal, and when that fact is appreciated and the basis upon which it rests, I believe that the application of the word "subsidy" to this Vote will be realised to be a wrong application. There was an old working agreement entered into with the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway Company pre-war. Under that agreement, a weekly rate was fixed at which the line was to be worked. It is, of course, clear to anybody that a rate fixed pre-war, which was then a proper rate for the working of the railway, must be completely out of accord with the present working of any railway. This so-called subsidy is brought forward year by year really to re-adjust the old working agreement to the changed conditions since 1914. As the Estimate states, this Vote is a maximum amount. If the loss in the whole working of the system amounted to less than £5,000 in the year 1928, the difference would be credited in equal shares to the company and to the Government. In other words, it is to meet what is regarded as a probable loss that the figure is set down as a maximum. If the loss in the working of the line is more, the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway Company have to find the remainder. If the loss is less, then the difference between that and the amount voted is to be credited half to the Government and half to the Railway Company. This particular Vote has been made for some years past, and the amount has been reduced year by year. In 1924, the Vote was £7,240; in 1925-6 it was £7,000; with a like amount contributed by the Northern Government. In 1927 it was £6,000, with a similar amount contributed by the Northern Government. This year the amount is reduced to £5,000. That reduction follows upon the result of an investigation made year by year and an estimate of the probable loss. The sums voted have about met the loss that accrued from the working of these lines. On the investigation of the accounts last year, a report was presented to me, and that report put up recommendations that the amount of the subsidy this year should be reduced from £6,000 to £4,000. But after taking a variety of circumstances into consideration the conclusion was reached that it would be unfair to reduce it to £4,000, that it would be putting too much of a strain upon the Company to ask them to come down from £6,000 to £4,000. But the Company has been given to understand that this sum will be decreased. I do not think it will disappear, but some other arrangement will have to be come to. Even if this arrangement were to be continued for a number of years, the amount of the figure would come down from the £5,000 figure.

The working of the Government lines is under supervision during the whole time; the accounts are open for inspection to officials of my Department and reports are presented from year to year, and it is upon the reports so presented that decisions are come to as to what is to be the amount of the subsidy. It is open to the Dáil to ask to have the old agreement changed. The circumstances in the area served by these lines simply mean that the three Government-owned lines cannot be economically worked—that is, that the expenditure cannot be met at the moment out of the traffic receipts. If the lines are to be kept alive at all the subsidy is necessary. The amount of the present subsidy of £5,000 is all that is in question. This year I am going beyond the report of the Committee that investigated in putting the figure at £5,000. I am not this year cutting down the subsidy, as recommended, from £6,000 to £4,000. The conditions there are well known and, at any rate, the mere statement that this is in lieu of the old working agreement of pre-war days makes it unnecessary to go into the matter in any great detail on this particular Vote. I move the Vote.

This Vote, in my opinion, should be opposed by Deputies from all parts of this House until such time as the Minister for Industry and Commerce gives the House a guarantee that he will institute a proper and full inquiry into the management, control and policy of the Company, and until such time also as he gives a guarantee that he will issue instructions to the particular Company to retain in their service the nine stationmasters and clerks who are now under notice of dismissal by the Company and due to leave the Company's service to-morrow. I hope to show the House, by the instances I will give and the examples I will place before it, that it is not in the interests of the State, nor in the interests of the shareholders, nor in the interests of the workers, that this particular line should be subsidised or, as the Minister for Industry and Commerce likes to term it, that this Vote should be passed, except the Minister gives a guarantee that he will set up an inquiry into the finances of this Company and shows how the money that this House is called upon to vote is to be spent. In former years, when this Vote was under consideration, it was not opposed by the Labour Party owing to the fact that they realised that poverty and suffering existed in Donegal. Certain things have happened in the meantime, and Deputies on these Benches have learned about certain things in regard to the mismanagement of the Company which I hope to put before the House to-day. When I have done so, I believe that Deputies will look at this Vote from an impartial standpoint and will agree that the time has arrivel when we should not vote any further subsidy to this Company until a full inquiry has been made in regard to its working.

The financial position, as far as this year is concerned, is as follows:—The passenger receipts from 1st January to a few days ago are down by £1,500; the receipts in respect of goods, minerals and live stock are up by £1,600. That means that the net income is increased this year by £100 in comparison with last year. At the same time, I would like to point out that if this Company were properly managed and run on the same principle as the Great Northern or Great Southern, we believe the receipts could be increased to a much greater extent, the passenger receipts principally. I believe the Company, by the manner in which they are treating the public, are not attempting to compete properly with the bus traffic or to cope with the passenger traffic when there is a rush on. I would like to quote a letter which appeared in the "Derry Standard" on the 6th June last in regard to the management of this railway. The writer of the letter states:—

Dear Sir,

I gather from your columns that the dismissal of many employees of the Lough Swilly Railway is due to a necessary and enforced "economy" campaign.

May I suggest that much of the trouble is due to the thorough lack of organisation that characterises the company's methods?

On Sunday last there was an advertised excursion service for 3 p.m. to Fahan, Buncrana, Ballyliffin, etc. At 2.45 p.m. the entrance to the station was congested with would-be trippers, and to approach either one of the two booking office windows involved almost a free fight.

Two trains left the station about 3 p.m., and crowds who hadn't booked tickets by that time turned away, with expressions of disgust (some rather strong, I thought).

About 400 to 500 people who had booked tickets, but who couldn't get on the trains, remained on the platform for varying lengths of time, many going to demand the return of their money. The writer and family remained 1 hour and 12 minutes (4.12 p.m.) after advertised time of departure, and still there was no trace of any likely conveyance.

How much money, sir, did the L. and L.S. Railway Company throw away on Sunday?

How much will they lose throughout the summer season by virtue of the bad impression so many people have gained?

How long is this mismanagement to continue? and, lastly,

Are employees to suffer for this bungling?

Another letter I would like to quote is one which appeared in the "Derry Journal." When I refer to "Onlooker," I think the Minister for Industry and Commerce will probably smile. The letter is as follows:—

Sir,—"Onlooker's" comments on the Swilly Railway in Monday's issue of the "Journal" make amusing reading to those who, like myself, spent two sweltering hours in that company's palatial premises at Pennyburn last Sunday afternoon.

A train was advertised to leave Derry on that day at 3 o'clock p.m., and the scenes around the ticket office immediately before that time baffle description. This train was packed long before the time, and steamed out at 2.50, leaving at least two hundred people still fighting for tickets.

Naturally thinking that another train would be backed in, I succeeded in getting a ticket after a rough-and-tumble struggle, and in due course we were all admitted to the "platform." Half-past three came, and four o'clock, and it was just then we learned that the first and only train had to go to Buncrana, discharge its freight, and return to Derry for the people who expected to get away at three o'clock. There were many family parties there, several women carrying children in their arms, and they had to wait over two hours. I won't attempt to describe the scenes on the return journey. Anyone who has travelled on the line on Sundays is familiar with them, but how any company could expect to survive bus competition and treat its patrons in such a fashion passes my comprehension. The sooner the Free State and Northern Governments cease subsidising this company and thereby compel them to treat passengers as Christians, the better it will be for all concerned.

Just at the time the Company were refusing to accept traffic in the shape of passengers, hundreds of them, Sunday after Sunday——

Where to—to Buncrana?

To Buncrana, Fahan and other stations. I would like to quote another example which occurred on the occasion of the Letterkenny Feis on the 28th and 29th of June. The Company was not able to provide enough rolling stock at Burtonport railway station for the large numbers of people who were anxious to travel. In the railway carriages, which were capable of accommodating 700 people, there were 1,300 people. That was notwithstanding the fact that there were spare engines and rolling stock lying idle on other parts of the railway. At the time all that was going on, when the management were refusing to accept passenger traffic, they were complaining about their financial resources and stating that they had not enough money to carry on. I put it to any man here with any business ability: could any railway company expect to survive if they treated the travelling public in this particular manner? This is the company we are asked to vote £5,000 to in order to subsidise them and bolster up the inefficiency of the management and the directors.

In or about the time when the Company were refusing to receive passenger traffic, largely because of incompetent management, they tell nine of their employees: "We have no further need for your services owing to the financial conditions of the Company." Surely it is heartbreaking to find nine employees turned adrift on the roadside without any unemployment insurance and without any hope of getting work. As the Minister is aware, this Company, a number of years ago, applied to his Department for exemption under the Unemployment Insurance Act, on the grounds that the employees were in what was permanent employment, and, therefore, there was no necessity to pay unemployment insurance.

Another matter is the financial follies, if I might describe them, of the directors of this Company. The Company allege that they are not able to carry on with the present staff. We in this House are asked to vote £5,000 of a subsidy to the Company. The management of the Company a few years ago purchased land near their head offices in Pennyburn, Londonderry. The price was £11,000.

Actually paid?

They actually paid in or about £11,000, and, in addition to that, they had to pay upwards of £1,000 in order to complete the sales. Those lands were bought with the idea, I suppose, of building new offices or stores or accommodation for engines, but the arrangements were never proceeded with, and if the Company attempted to sell the land now they would not get £200. That is the way the finances are squandered, and why should we be called upon to vote £5,000? That is one of the reasons why the Donegal employees are cast on to the roadside. That is not the only item of financial bungling that the directors have indulged in. Not so very long ago the directors paid approximately £9,000 to one of their own railway directors for a couple of secondhand boats which were publicly declared to be half rotten. When the people in Donegal and Derry saw that the Company were going to pay £9,000 for these boats, it was the laughing-stock of the whole area. I believe the people were justified in laughing at this example of mismanagement, because only a short time has elapsed since they paid the £9,000 for the boats to ply on Lough Swilly, and we now find that they are both out of commission and they are not being used for coastal service owing to the fact that it would not be safe to travel in them. I believe public funds should not be voted in order to bolster up incompetency on the part of either the management or the directors of that particular railway.

The length of railway altogether is 99 miles, and in order to maintain that length of railway we find that there are a general manager, a locomotive superintendent, an assistant locomotive superintendent, an accountant, and a permanent way engineer. Railway companies, like the Great Northern or the Southern Company, can find competent railway managers in Ireland, and they can find competent engineers who are Irishmen, but we find, so far as this particular Company is concerned, that two of the chief officials are Englishmen and one is a Scotchman. When, however, it comes to effecting economies on this line, we find that these gentlemen from England and Scotland must not be inconvenienced, but the mere Irish from County Donegal must be thrown on the roadside. I want to know from Donegal Deputies of all Parties whether they are going to stand for that, for the policy of the directors of the Company throwing Donegal men on the roadside while the Company is top-heavy, so far as managerial expenses are concerned?

It has been alleged by the Company that some of these men with whose services they are dispensing are redundant, that there is no necessity for them as there is no work. If there is no work, as the Company alleges, who is responsible for it? The management, or rather the mismanagement, of the Company is responsible. Last May dismissal notices were issued to nine employees, but as a result of negotiations between one of the railway trade unions and the management it was decided to suspend the notices for two months, and a promise was given that a cancellation would be favourably considered. Before any of the men were dismissed two men resigned and, consequently, one would have thought that if the Company were going to pursue their policy they would only dispense with the services of seven. Instead of that we find that they are going ahead with these dismissals, and these nine men are going to be thrown on the roadside to-morrow. Some of them have comparatively long service. Some have families. They will have to vacate the Company's houses, leave the railway, and look for employment elsewhere owing to the blundering tactics of a Company to whom we are asked to vote £5,000 to bolster up incompetency on their part. There is no getting away from the fact that there is wild extravagance on the part of the Company, and I have already quoted a few cases to prove their incompetency and unbusinesslike methods, which one would not expect from a board of directors.

I would point out that we are asked to subsidise a Company controlled by five directors, the majority of whom reside outside the Free State. The majority were no friends of the people who were looking for Irish freedom during the trouble. Apart from that, we are asked to bolster up their inefficiency. What experience have they to control the policy of the Company? They have no particular railway knowledge. Their only knowledge in that respect is that they have a few hundred pounds invested in the Company. I put it to Deputies, if they take the case of a wholesale drapery firm in Dublin, into which four or five directors who know nothing about drapery work are put, it will only be a matter of time before that firm becomes bankrupt. It is the same with the Company. I have quoted cases, and other cases will be quoted by other Deputies, to show that those connected with the management are inefficient. The Minister may say, when replying, that the services of some of these men can be dispensed with, as they are redundant, but has the Minister nothing to say to the extravagant salaries paid to men at the head of affairs, cross-Channel men? It is true that the Minister sent an inspector to the railway some time ago, but he did not report in regard to the expenditure of £11,000 or £12,000 in regard to waste ground, nor in regard to the loss incurred in the purchase of those two boats.

I appeal to the House to insist on the Minister, before giving this subsidy, setting up a committee of inquiry to investigate the whole working of the line, and, in the meantime, those employees who are to be turned out on the road to-morrow should be retained in the company's service until the committee has reported. The Minister may say that these men's services could be dispensed with. I would point out to him that in 1920 there were employed by this company 89 stationmasters and clerks, and that that figure will now be reduced to 49. Although it has been pointed out to the Minister by certain directors and by the management that everything is right, so far as the Company is concerned, I know from inner knowledge of the Company that things are not right, and that this House would be ill-advised to vote money until a proper inquiry is made into the whole situation. A few days ago there was a meeting held of employees from all parts of the line, and the following resolution was passed:—

"This meeting deplores and condemns the brutal and unreasonable action of the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway Company in its refusal to consider any proposals involving a mitigation of the terrible hardship being inflicted upon the stationmasters and clerks who are being dismissed, and on their families and dependents, because of follies and bungling for which they are not responsible.

"The meeting realises that the only argument which the people responsible for these unnecessary dismissals recognise is the strike, but, being painfully cognisant of the fact that a strike at this stage may mean ruin to the line, and having a deeper interest in its welfare than its directors and management, feels reluctantly compelled to withhold action for the moment, but calls upon the Free State and Northern Governments to institute an immediate inquiry into the working of this company in the interests of equity and efficiency, and to give early and favourable consideration to the claims of our disemployed colleagues."

If the Company are allowed to proceed along the line upon which they have been proceeding for some time past there is no getting away from the fact that a crisis will be reached and that a strike will occur. There would be a strike to-morrow were it not for the fact that a strike at this particular juncture would probably mean the closing down of the line and it would probably not be reopened. While the employees are more concerned about the running of the line than the manager and directors, this House, with its eyes closed and blindfolded in regard to what is going on there, is asked to vote £5,000. The employees are not afraid to strike, but if the Minister is adamant in his refusal to set up a committee of inquiry you will possibly see a strike, the line closed down, and neither this House nor the newspapers can blame the employees, but they can blame the Minister and Deputies here for not insisting on a committee being set up to inquire into the working of the whole concern.

Deputy Cassidy bases his opposition to this Vote on two grounds. He says that the money should not be voted by this House unless and until full inquiry is made into the working of the Company, and also until a dispute, which unfortunately obtains at present between the Company and some of its employees, has been satisfactorily settled. So far as the first point is concerned, if the Minister does not find that he has sufficient information without an inquiry I, for my part, shall vote for such inquiry, but, offhand, it appears to me incredible that the Minister should have been asking the House for a number of years to allow a subsidy to be made to this Company without having all the facts and figures before him. I feel perfectly certain that the Minister has before him all the facts which any inquiry could elicit.

As to the second point which Deputy Cassidy made, I am aware of at least some of the facts. I do think that while there are probably redundancies in the staffing of the line, the dismissal of these men will result in very great hardship. I know personally that in one or two cases, at least, that hardship will be very grievous indeed. I have in mind one admittedly very efficient man whose wife has been very ill for a considerable time. He has certainly worked the station, about which I know a good deal, better than ever I have known it to be worked before, and yet he is one of the persons who, if this arrangement stands, will have to go. I know that hard cases make bad law. I know perfectly well that you cannot run a railway company or any other business merely by having regard to a man with a long, weak family. I am aware of that, but at the same time, when a company is in receipt of assistance from the State, it is not unreasonable to ask that the Department should bring sufficient pressure to bear on the company concerned, to see that it does, at any rate, exhaust all possibilities of amicable agreement in order to avoid discharging any of its employees. The only other observation I want to make is that Deputy Cassidy seems to treat this whole matter as if it were a question between certain directors of the Lough Swilly Railway Company on the one hand and the Government or the Dáil on the other. Really that is not the way to look at it.

What I referred to was the mismanagement of the Company, not of individual directors.

I do not mean to say that the Deputy alleged any criminal offence against them, but I will say that he spoke at considerable length, and more than once he referred to the origin, domicile, and so on, of these particular people, and he rather suggested that we were giving them presents of money. As far as I am concerned, if it were a present, I owe them nothing, unless they could regard as a debt some very uncomfortable hours spent in the railway carriages. I have no sense of gratitude towards them at all, and if it were a question of doing a favour to the Board of the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway Company, I should not be at all inclined to support the Vote, but that is not really the issue at stake. The issue at stake on the broad question is that the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway Company is a small line, which owns about twelve miles and operates nearly a hundred. The greater part of the line runs through an exceedingly poor district. The greater part of the line which it operates was built out of State money for the purpose of opening up certain portions of the congested districts. I do not believe that it was ever successful, but I do not suppose that it was ever expected that that line would really pay. I mean to say that the portion of the line which was leased by the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway Company was comparatively successful for a number of years as long as our fishing industry was more flourishing than it is now, but at best I do not suppose it could ever be a commercial proposition. The real question is whether it is not a reasonable object of public policy to keep lines of communication open in a district which is sorely in need of them. I do not think there will be any dispute that it is, and I submit to the House that that is the real question in this case.

Deputy Law has put his fingers on the real point in this matter when he says that the question for the consideration of the Minister and the House is whether this Dáil is prepared to assist in maintaining the existing lines of communication so far as they affect Tirconaill. The whole question, I admit, concerns our lines of communication as between the Free State portion, that is Tirconaill, and the Six-County area, which this railway partly serves, and the extent we are prepared to close down these lines of communication. I am personally quite satisfied that the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway Company, under the existing management, cannot continue to carry on under the present state of affairs. Therefore, this House, some time in the immediate future, will be called upon to set up some inquiry which will determine the future working of the railway and the working conditions of the people who work on the railway. The question whether we vote £4,000, £5,000 or £6,000 is not going to decide the matter. I have a suspicion at the back of my mind that this undue haste in wiping out one-sixth of the clerical staff of the Company is in anticipation that we are drifting towards the absorption or the amalgamation of the line. If we are going to allow this policy of the hidden hand which is going on between the directors and the management of the Company, behind the backs of the Dáil, this House will, in the future, be presented with amalgamation proposals which will seriously prejudice our lines of communication.

I say the whole subject is very important from the national point of view, and unless this House and members of all Parties—and I do not think it is a Party matter—face the problem as we find it, it will be worse in twelve months' time when we come to discuss another subsidy than it is to-day. I do not want, at this stage, to say anything which would prejudice the future working of the concern. We are all anxious, even if an inquiry is going to be held, to continue working the line. I have reason to believe that at least one of the directors of the line would welcome an inquiry. I think an inquiry would be justified. I would like to know from the Minister, in case he refuses to grant an inquiry, the grounds upon which he refuses to set it up. If the Minister is satisfied—and I am—that economies must be effected in order to enable this line to carry on under the existing state of affairs on its own, let these economies be effected by reductions at the top as well as at the bottom. Does any Deputy in the House, particularly from Tirconaill, Deputy Law or anybody else, suggest that this Company, with its small number of employees, in or about three hundred, requires the supervision of a general manager, glorified or otherwise. He is a very able railway man, I will admit. Then they have a locomotive superintendent, an assistant locomotive superintendent, a permanent way engineer, and an accountant, at an expense of £3,400 a year and their chances.

From what I can gather, the expenses of these particular five supermen in a year would amount to about 50 per cent. of their total salaries. In any case, the salaries of the five supermen responsible for the mismanagement of this particular line average £680 a year. The clerical, administrative and supervisory staff contains 60 employees. The yearly salaries amount to £11,500, and the average for each employee is £191 13s. 4d. per year. I am satisfied from the little I know of the negotiations which have been going on recently that a case can be made for the elimination of two or three of the men who have been served with notices of dismissal. I say no more than that, as far as I know, but I have not been acting behind the seenes in this matter. I have to act on information which I believe to be reliable. I have received it from those who have gone into the matter much more closely than I have. In any case this House would be confronted perhaps with the same position twelve months hence, if in the meantime we are not confronted with the absorption of this line by another railway company who will not serve Tirconaill as it should be served, and it will not have the same supervision of this Parliament as it has to-day.

I want to know from the Minister whether he is prepared to set up this Committee of Inquiry. He is not. I hope he will give an opportunity to this House to allow the mismanagement of this Company to be exposed as it can be exposed, I think, in the light of day. If those who began the inquiry cannot justify the position they have taken up and the statements they have made, give the Company an opportunity of justifying or rebutting those statements. What has the Minister to hide? There is nothing to hide. Therefore, let him have the whole matter exposed and have the whole matter of the railway inquired into from the administrative point of view or from that of the present policy of the Company. I think the House should decline to allow a subsidy even of £5,000 to be voted to the directors of this concern, who have, in the manner Deputy Cassidy pointed out, mismanaged this Company, and who are not anxious to get more traffic and make the Company a paying concern. He quoted a case where excursions were advertised for Letterkenny Feis on the 28th and 29th of June. I am not quite sure whether the management of that Company would not be anxious to make a failure of the Feis. It is quite evident that they were not prepared to cope with the traffic offered to them. While engines, locomotives and other rolling stock were lying idle close by, they packed the train, which was capable of accommodating only 700 people, with 1,300 people. There is something radically wrong in that. I believe my statement is perfectly reliable. The power of the Minister's officials to inquire into the working of the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway either in the past or the future merely goes to the extent of examining the expenditure or revenue. They satisfied themselves that the manager was entitled to claim £30 or £40 in addition to his high salary. The expenses were receipted, and that satisfied them. I am not aware that they have power to inquire into and examine the policy of the Company in so far as it may be concerned in catering for the travelling public in Tirconaill. These are matters which this House should in the existing circumstances inquire into. This House should set up a Committee of Inquiry at any rate to see if this Company can carry on under the existing methods of management, or whether the case made is one for the absorption of the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway by a greater combine that will carry on and serve the travelling public of Tirconaill under the direction of another Parliament other than this one.

It appears to us, from the information we have been able to get concerning the circumstances surrounding this Vote and the working of the railway line to which it refers, that a very reasonable case can be made out for the suggestion put forward by Deputy Cassidy for an inquiry into the working of these lines. It is possible, I do not think it is likely, that the result of such an inquiry would be to establish definitely that there was a certain redundancy in staff and that reductions would have to take place, but there are serious grounds for believing that the management of the Company is not all that might be desired and that there is room for economy other than by a reduction of staff, and that consequently some useful purpose would be served by holding an inquiry such as has been suggested. We have the figures, which have been already quoted in this House, concerning the receipts in respect of the passenger and goods traffic. From the beginning of this year the receipts in respect to goods traffic are up by some £1,600, but the receipts in respect of passenger traffic are down by almost, though not quite, a similar amount. The cause of the decline in the passenger traffic receipts may be the increased intensity of bus competition with which the railway is contending. It is also very possible that the decline is directly due to the fact that the facilities which the Company are providing for the carrying of passengers are not suitable.

Deputies who reside in Donegal and who have experience of travelling upon these lines may not immediately note the particular circumstances under which passengers are carried. The manner in which the company does its business would be more apparent to any person who visited the county, never having been there before, and who had personal experience of the conditions under which passengers are conveyed. Some time ago I had occasion to go to Donegal on business which necessitated my travelling all over the county. I may say it is my usual practice to travel third class, but when I got into Donegal and saw what their third-class carriages were like, despite my slender resources I decided to travel first class. It is doubtful, if I were prepared to travel third class, if I could have forced myself into some of the carriages in the train. The people were crowded into these carriages like cattle in trucks. They were sitting on top of one another and others were standing.

You must have been the attraction.

Possibly I was the attraction. The fact remains that any person with an alternative method provided for him by an omnibus company would not take the risk of going a long and tedious journey under the conditions which I saw those people travelling. The trains, in my experience, never started to time, and certainly never arrived to time, and there were always long and tedious waits in every station. Certainly the impression left in my mind was that a considerable improvement in the management of the company could be effected, and if the company is to survive as a business concern such an improvement will have to take place or the omnibus is going to put the railway company out of business. It is obvious from the figures we have that the omnibus is putting the railway out of business as far as passenger traffic is concerned. It is necessary for these lines to get trade. The building of these lines was a great boon to the parts of the country which they serve and which are some of the most backward in Ireland. If the facilities which the fish industry would require, and the ordinary facilities needed from time to time by the country, are to be provided in those areas, the railway lines must be preserved. They cannot be preserved in this way unless we are prepared year after year to vote this subsidy, or some re-organisation of the line takes place that would enable an increase in passenger traffic receipts to be made and that will put the company on a paying basis. The lines are State property. They were built mainly, at any rate, with money provided by the taxpayers. In many cases the taxpayers are being asked year after year to pay for the working of the line. It is our duty to see that the amount which the taxpayer has to put up is reduced to the minimum possible. If there does appear to be a very serious case for a general inquiry into the management of the line it is our business to ensure that such an inquiry will take place before we can in a lighthearted manner vote money to make good the losses which unbusinesslike methods have resulted in. The matter raised concerning the contemplated reduction in staff is another matter which this House should take into consideration. Yesterday, when leave to introduce this Estimate was given, the Minister, in reply to Deputy Cassidy, made some remark to the effect that Deputy Cassidy wanted the State to subsidise redundant employees of the railway. But he has informed us to-day that he is proposing to vote £1,000 more than the officials who investigated the condition of the line recommended should be given. He said it is due to a variety of circumstances which he had to take into consideration. When this House is going to vote £1,000 more than the officials who carried out the investigation considered necessary we should know why precisely he recommends it. We should be told who the Minister is proposing to subsidise by giving this additional £1,000.

Deputy Davin thinks there is a case for the dismissal of two or three officials, but not for the dismissal of the entire number it is proposed to get rid of. Deputy Law said that individual cases will, no doubt, mean hardship, although he said it is not possible to make a general rule in consequence of the one hard case. I would like to know if there is not a general rule operating in the case of the dismissal of these employees. I heard of a case to which Deputy Law has referred. It is the case of an employee of the railway company who happens to be an official of the Railways Employees' Union. Is it a fact, as is suggested, that it is the key men of the Union who are being picked out for dismissal? It appears to me, if there is a redundancy of staff and if a certain number have to be dismissed, that the rule which appears to be put into operation by the Great Southern Railways is the fairest; that is, that men having the shortest period of service should be the first to go, and not that a competent official— as Deputy Law said, a very efficient man—should be dismissed, while others with shorter service are retained. Taking these matters into consideration, it does appear to us that a useful case can be made for an inquiry. I hope the Minister, in his reply, will deal with this seriously and not in the frivolous debating manner in which he usually answers arguments of this kind. We are anxious to know what he has to say, if he has anything to say, with respect to what Deputy Cassidy said. Otherwise we are prepared to back Deputy Cassidy in his attitude by voting with him.

I rise not in any way as a partisan in this case, but merely to back the appeal for an inquiry. A case has been put by Deputy Cassidy which, I think the House will agree, was one of the best-documented and one of the best-stated cases that they have heard in this House. A prima facie case for an inquiry seems to have been made. I am not going to prejudge the result of that inquiry. I can see difficulties. I want to be fair. It is in a spirit of fairness I am asking for the inquiry. For instance, I will put the case that I see certain difficulties even in the cases stated by Deputy Cassidy. I can see possible explanations, but the question is as to whether these explanations are correct. The fact that there are possible explanations is a very good reason why, unless we do receive a satisfactory reason within the knowledge of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, we should proceed to find out whether there are satisfactory explanations of what has happened. For instance, Deputy Cassidy stated that a train which ought to carry 700 was carrying 1,300. That is a point in favour of the company, because the company is out to make money, and it was not doing a thing of that kind without a particular reason. You are dealing with peak loads. Excursion loads are peak loads. There was so much a peak load on this particular occasion that the ordinary accommodation was strained from 700 to 1,300. It does not follow at all that the taking of that particular traffic, even if paid for, would be profitable. Peak load traffic is very expensive traffic. What I am suggesting now is that the company may have a case; they may be able to say that that extra traffic which they were asked to take on a particular occasion, the people whom they turned away from the booking offices, they would not have taken at any price as a commercial proposition. Anybody who has ever costed out a variable supply or a variable demand knows that peak load stuff is often apocryphal in costs. I gave the House, some time ago, a case in relation to electric supply where part of the peak load sold at 4d. a unit cost nearly £5 to produce. The company may be able to put up that case; it may be able to say that to deal with this exceptional traffic, at that particular moment, was not a thing that they could commercially do. They may be able to say that the idle plant on that date was at a part of the line from which it was not economical to move it to the particular place; it would have to be used at any commercial price. They may be able to say that the idle plant had duties for the following day and so on, which would have made it impossible to deal with that matter. I am suggesting now deliberately the difficulties which might be there. The fact that those difficulties are there, and that that case could be put, is the best reason why, unless the Minister for Industry and Commerce has within his knowledge facts which will show that those were not the explanations—unless he has a satisfactory explanation in his possession—the very good prima facie case which has been put up by Deputy Cassidy is a case for inquiry.

There are two other points Deputy Cassidy brought out. He brought out the question of £11,000 and an extra £1,000 being paid for land which he says is worth now only £200. That is an extraordinary difference and gives one furiously to think. I find it very difficult to conceive a condition in which a piece of land could be bought for a railway company for £12,000 which in the temporary lack of use would come down to the value of £200. If there is such a case, and Deputy Cassidy has stated that after inquiry there is, and if we are asked to pay £5,000, then there is a strong case for inquiry. He gave us other cases. There was the case of the two derelict boats. Some people do palm off their property upon public affairs. Deputy Cassidy, I do not suppose, is an expert in shipping. A boat could look very rusty and in very bad repair and yet be a very excellent piece of property, but here is a case where he says that he knows that £9,000 was paid for two boats that are now obviously derelict. His information may be wrong. If his information is right, and suppose it is a new piece of information, it is an insight into the condition of Government administration of that company which would explain a much larger loss than the £5,000 of subsidy which we are asked to put up. As I say, I do not want to judge the case. I will say again, that if Deputy Cassidy's facts are sound, he has put forward as good a prima facie case for inquiry as I have ever heard put before the House. Unless the Minister is in possession of information, and I think that he thinks he is, in relation to at least one of the specific matters which he raised, and is in a position to tell the House that he is in possession actually of information which will enable him to rebut the prima facie case made by Deputy Cassidy, then an inquiry should lie in this matter.

No prima facie case has been made for any inquiry. Deputy Cassidy pretended to give one: two days' excursion trains; an allegation about the times; £11,000 for a piece of ground; and an allegation about the purchase of two boats. All that goes to lead the House to conclude that it was the present management bought the particular waste ground at Pennyburn.

The Company.

The present management—the management were giving the money. The Company dates from the time the railway was started. The same thing applies to the purchase of the boats. Then there were two days upon which excursion trains were run overloaded and possible passengers turned away. Deputy Flinn says there was a prima facie case and destroys it by his statement about peak loads. I do not believe there is any case whatever for an inquiry. I think any attempt made to establish a case only founds itself upon a misconception that there is apparently, as to the difference between the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway and the Government lines which are being worked by them. We vote money, not to the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway Company for their own use and benefit, but for the working of Government lines. I made the statement before that they were working upon an old basis, a pre-war arrangement, which is completely out of date, an arrangement which no layman, thinking of the times, could ever come to the conclusion was correct. The mere statement that it is a pre-war fixture, and that they are operating on the basis of that at the moment, is sufficient case, I think, for some subsidy. You can vote a subsidy and let the lines be kept open, or refuse to vote it and let the lines be closed down, and let, not merely the present redundant employees, but all the people necessary for keeping the lines open get out of work and never come into work again as far as that is concerned.

That is a threat.

That is a fact that is ahead. Deputy Davin can judge as to whether it is a threat or not, as he knows exactly what the situation is.

Does the Minister put forward that as a threat, or is it an answer to our proposal to set up a Committee of Inquiry?

Deputy Davin, whether I put it forward or not, has characterised it as such. Deputy Cassidy can make up his own mind. Supposing there was waste ground bought near Pennyburn, has Deputy Cassidy pretended to go into the circumstances in which it was bought? Has he pretended to talk about the pressure put by the Derry Corporation upon the people to change the station from the present location many years ago?

Did they change?

They did not. What are they doing at present? Trying to secure a lease of the present site. As to the boats bought they are in use.

How many?

Both. They are surveyed every year.

Does the Minister state that the boats are in use?

How long were they out of use?

I cannot answer that, but I do know that they are surveyed every year for the purpose of use as feeders.

The Minister should be allowed to make his speech without interruptions.

I know more about the County Donegal than most of the Deputies from that county. I think that can be easily understood in the case of Deputy Cassidy.

About one side of the case—the side of the management of the railway company.

I am not standing up for railway management. I scrutinise it every year, in so far as they apply moneys which they get from this House for the working of three Government lines.

Did you receive a report concerning the failure of this Company to provide reasonable travelling facilities for the Letterkenny Feis on the 28th June? Did you ask for an explanation, and are you satisfied with it?

I got no report. I got no such complaint; therefore the rest could not follow.

Did it go to your Department?

I do not believe it did. I have not received it, and I think I would have got it, as this Vote was on to-day. I have been asked as to economies which may be effected in the management or amongst the higher officials. Again, that question simply shows the confusion in the minds of the people asking it. I have nothing to do with the Londonderry and Lough Swilly management, in so far as they manage the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway system. Having the management there, I have asked the House to entrust to them, as the only people who can do it, the running on a particular basis of the three Government lines, which without them we cannot run, or without them we could not have run in the past.

What is the mileage of the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway Company's property?

It is very small.

What is?

That is a different matter. If it is only a mile, and they have one hundred officials, it is nothing to us—we are not paying anything for them.

Would there be a subsidy if the Government lines did not run to Dungloe Fort to supply the British?

There was.

Even before Deputy Carney was a stalwart soldier in Dungloe Fort the lines were kept.

I was not.

Neither Dungloe Fort nor Deputy Carney enters into the consideration—or the safeguarding of either. Can we not get down to the question that Deputy Lemass asks? If there was only a mile of railway owned by the company, and they had 2,000 officials, we have nothing to do with that.

The Minister must be allowed to make his speech. Let us have the speech from the Minister first and a little cross-examination at the end.

As long as we are satisfied that their management in respect of the three Government lines is efficient, and that the working of the three Government lines entails a Vote on this House of £5,000, that is all we have to be satisfied about. I do not believe any committee set up by the House could effect, if the company liked to refuse it, entry into the company's premises, or that they could get the company up for examination. They certainly would have no business inquiring into how the company operate the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway line, and we have nothing to do with that. What we are concerned about is the three Government lines and the fact that there is capable management there—that we have the very best for the time being. We propose to grant a sum of money to them, and we scrutinise the accounts year by year, and pass judgment on them, imposing upon them certain economies, as we think fit, seeing that they are carried out, judging them as they come along from year to year, showing at the end of each year to the Dáil that we are satisfied as to what this company has done, and that we can show figures that it is being done.

Imposing economies at the bottom, nothing at the top.

There is no top as far as the Government is concerned.

How are the estimated losses arrived at?

May I be allowed to make my speech, and, if I neglect to give the facts, the Deputy can ask me then. I am told that there is room for economies as regards the executive officers. As a matter of fact, in so far as there are, that particular item falls for consideration in a very slight way every year. It has been considered, and it has been reported to me, and I am convinced that there is no economy worth considering to be effected—no economy that we can bring about.

On the locomotive side.

On any side as far as the higher people are concerned.

You are looking after them anyway.

I have to do with the higher officials. I have to do simply with the three Government lines, and if people can only separate the management of the railway from the Government lines they run for us and from the officials who run them, we would get a better appreciation of the situation. Deputy Lemass says that I am asking the House to vote £1,000 more this year than was estimated as the loss. I am not.

You said it yourself.

If I did I made a mistake and I went on to make an explanation. I said we are fixing the maximum at a higher point than what those who investigated the matter recommended. The £5,000 was the maximum. I am simply raising the maximum by £1,000 beyond what they recommended it should be.

Will you not have to pay up to half of it?

Up to half of it —to give them, to a certain extent, an incentive to make economies, and we get back half. I believe £5,000 will be the Vote. I said also that the recommendation of the £4,000 was not put up very strongly. After the consideration of the Report I got certain questions asked and answered, and I came to the decision—I cannot go into the grounds now for my decision—that this particular maximum was required. I do not know what people think they are going to inquire into who wish to have an inquiry.

Into the mismanagement.

Into the mismanagement of the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Company's own system?

And into the future working of the Company.

The only ground put forward for an inquiry was the items of the two excursion days and this purchase of some piece of waste property, not for Government lines, and the purchase of two boats which were not for the Government lines.

Out of the Company's general funds?

Have you ever travelled in one of the carriages of those lines?

I have Deputy Lemass has referred to that and he thinks it is not right to have the facilities for passenger traffic that this Company should have judged by anyone who knows that county; he thinks they are inured to the hardships and that you must get a sort of Great Southern standard in Donegal whether Donegal can bear it or not.

That is not so.

I am not speaking to Deputy Cassidy at the moment. Deputy Lemass thinks it ought to be judged by somebody who does not know that particular railway. We received on Friday last from Deputy de Valera a kind of lecture on hair-shirt economics in this country. But Deputy Lemass does not like to apply that doctrine to railways working in Donegal.

Is it not a fact that the railway workers there are paid ten per cent. less than in other parts of the country?

I think that is so, and that it is required. I think the standard of travel is what the county can bear; in fact, it is more than the county can bear, because we have to vote £5,000 and the Northern Government £5,000. It is not a sound argument if the traffic receipts will not meet expenditure. We have been scrutinising the expenditure very closely.

They do not want traffic.

I never can understand the point of view of people who say that railway managers do not want traffic. The expenditure has been reduced since 1924 from £71,000 in that year to £70,000; 1925, to £67,000; and in 1926 to £63,831. That is how expenditure has gone down. The management laboured in bringing down their expenditure and have succeeded.

What about the other side? What about pulling in receipts? They are not anxious to do that.

I say they have a very efficient railway manager upon that line. I go so far as to say he is the most efficient railway manager this country has. I said that three times already.

He is able to pull the wool over your eyes.

That may be proof of his efficiency, but he is efficient as a railway manager, very efficient, and I think in his cooler moments Deputy Davin will admit that he has been a success. With regard to how that line is worked, anyone coming from other parts of the country may go to Donegal and complain of the stuffy, over-crowded slow trains, and the long waits at railway stations. But there never was the same volume of comic comment on the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway as there has been about other railways in the South of Ireland. They never approached anything near the West Clare and Ballybunion Railways.

They never treated their employees in the same callous manner.

The standard has to be according to the particular county, and in these definitely closed-in railways it has to go according to the standard of the people round about. You will not get first-class railway accommodation such as you will get on the Great Southern or as good a permanent way, or you will not get Great Southern time or the accurate running to time on the Londonderry and Lough Swilly as you do on the Great Southern. The coat has to be cut definitely according to the cloth. I do not know that there is anything more to be said except to say again that they are working under an old 1914 arrangement, which is completely out of date. Everyone must recognise that a 1914 arrangement must be out of date. There is talk of a 10 per cent. cut in the wages of the railway employees. As a matter of fact we had to vote a subsidy and to vote this money to pay wages.

And salaries.

No. Wages— almost entirely wages. The House is faced with this situation. According to what I may term Deputy Cassidy's threat, the House is asked to call a strike for the employees or a lock-out for the railway directors. If you do not vote the subsidy everybody recognises the railways cannot last, and by the time you have voted the subsidy again the railways will have gone down to such a point that they will hardly ever be able to have a chance to stand up again.

Not if you set up an inquiry.

Not if you set up an inquiry and seek to keep employees, not merely redundant now, in employment, but a certain number who were redundant three years ago. I shall take the blame for a certain number of these dismissals. I actually pressed upon the directors of the Company, so far as our lines were concerned, that there were certain stations where the traffic receipts were so small that it was an outrage to have them continued as stations. If the railway management are to be criticised for anything, it is that they have kept a small number of men in employment for two years, where we did not think them necessary.

If they put them out they would have to bring in new men to do the work.

They would not. I put it to the House that we are paying the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway this cost of working our lines that we think is reasonable. We check their statements and the results year by year, and we see nothing to complain of, either in the way they are cutting down their expenditure or in the attempt they are making to facilitate traffic. Some of the things they did resulted in more passenger travelling, but less passenger receipts. I claim responsibility for that. But we have nothing to complain of in the way the management is working, either as to the matter of expenditure or receipts on the line. I do not think that people ought to be asked to hold up the subsidy required because of the three statements made with regard to the piece of waste ground at Pennyburn, about which the facts have not been given. At any rate if that sum of money was paid and wastefully expended, which I deny, it was not done by the present management; they had nothing to do with it. Similarly with regard to the purchase of the boats which are in commission; they were not purchased by the present management.

Yes, purchased from one of the present directors.

They were purchased, I think, but the particular gentleman from whom they were purchased is deceased. It was not under the present management. The only outstanding items now are these two matters of the excursion train——

Not two excursion trains. I only quoted two. It is happening every Sunday regularly.

And every day there is a fair day.

That is the only case made.

It did not happen on the 12th of July.

That may be a drive at Deputy Carney's associates. They would be all going in on the 12th July to see him. I do not know what else it means. With excursion fares on days that have been referred to, we have very little to do. We look at the ordinary course of progress over the line. Then there is the item of the boats. The House is asked to hold up the payment of what we think is a reasonable amount of money in order to enable the Company to meet its working expenses, incurred over the three lines. You can refuse to vote this money and the railways will close down. The three Government lines will close down. What will happen the other lines I do not know. At any rate our portion of it drops. We will take up the consideration of it in the autumn, and by that time a greater portion of the line will have been lifted by the people in the neighbourhood.

A good character.

If you discontinue the payment, you are not going to be able to enforce an investigation into the Londonderry and Lough Swilly line.

The Minister says it does not matter whether there are five or five thousand officers in the management. I would like to be informed how the estimate of the loss is arrived at, and what proportion of the management expenses are taken into account when estimating the losses on these lines?

Will the Minister tell us whether he knows or does not know that these two boats that have been mentioned are working or not working?

Will the Minister tell the House that this £11,000 was not paid out of the Company's revenue— will he tell us that, after an investigation by his officials, or is he prepared to make further inquiries into it? I am definitely assured that this sum was paid out of revenue. When speaking before, I did not use any threats or threatening language.

The Deputy is not now speaking again.

I want to make it clear that I did not stipulate any particular kind of committee. Does the Minister still persist in refusing to set up a committee, even a Departmental Committee nominated by himself, to inquire into the working of the line?

I inquire every year.

That Committee will be set up to inquire into revenue and expenditure?

Into everything.

But not into policy?

Yes, everything, including policy.

That is very valuable information. The Minister has been trying to deny it in his speech.

In answer to Deputy Carney, I may say that the boats are working. In answer to Deputy Davin, as to whether this £11,000 was paid out of the Company's revenue, I say that this £11,000 was not paid out of revenue. If there was any money used for that it was money out of the War Claims Compensation money.

Was not that the Company's revenue?

I do not think so.

Well, if it was, the Deputies will have it placed for a particular date and they will know over what period it accrued. But it has nothing to do with what the Company has done since 1924, or with the revenue since then. I think that is sound. I misunderstood the Deputy altogether if he was referring to any departmental inquiry. There is a most searching departmental inquiry taken every year and everything is gone into and a report is presented. If the Deputy means the policy of the line with regard to attracting more traffic over the line, certainly that is one of the points most definitely looked into. It was one of the most important items.

And the cost of management?

The cost of management comes into it to a very slight extent. Deputy Lemass raised that. I would not like to say at the moment what percentage of the entire expenditure goes against management, but it is a very small thing.

It does matter.

No. If they had 15,000 or 2,000 people working we do not pay the fractional cost of every one of these. We get a segregation of what can be placed against the ordinary working of the Government lines.

Let me inform the Minister that his information is incorrect. The two boats are not working; one is working, but the other is not.

I do not know if the Deputy is insisting on the present time; if he is, the Deputy is incorrect.

In view of the fact that the Minister is not going to set up this Committee of Inquiry——

I am not—the sort of inquiry that Deputy Davin speaks of.

A committee to inquire into the management and control of the railway?

If the Deputy means an outside committee, no.

In view of the fact that nine men are going to be turned out on the roadside, will you guarantee a conference between the management and representatives of the trade union to discuss the question of dismissal?

I would not make that promise without having a better case made for the calling of a conference. I have had meetings of certain people interested in the railway on the workers' side.

But not one in which both the management and the employees were represented?

No, and I would not be prepared to have such inquiry unless there is a better case made for it.

Does the Minister mean to set up any committee?

I will have my ordinary Departmental investigation.

Which will report to this House?

No, by no means.

In view of the fact that there is a widespread opinion in Donegal that the main reason for the railway is that it supplies the troops in Dungloe Fort, I think a committee should be set up. For that sake alone there should be a committee. The people there have the opinion that the reason it is being subsidised is because there is a British fort there and they have to keep the line open.

That is another bit of an obsession.

There is more involved in this than a mere Party vote, and I do not want a Party victory over the bones of nine or ten men. Is the Minister prepared to hold an inquiry through his Department, giving an opportunity to representatives of the staff to put forward evidence as against dismissal, and their reasons why certain people should not be dismissed, together with other suggestions for the better working of the line?

I will hear representations from the employees, and I will be glad to get from them suggestions as to additional economies which can be brought about, as well as suggestions regarding the dismissals.

Pending the report of that inquiry, which, on behalf of the staff, I am prepared to accept, will the Minister hold over the dismissals for a period of two weeks or a month as the case may be?

I did not say I would hold an inquiry. I said I would receive representations from the men. I am not going to interfere with the management in the matter of certain dismissals that they think to be necessary and about which, having seen certain facts, I must say I agree with them on the whole.

In regard to the whole line?

Yes; on the whole I think I do.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 69; Níl, 57.

  • Aird, William P.
  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Beckett, James Walter.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Blythe, Ernest.
  • Bourke, Séamus A.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Byrne, John Joseph.
  • Carey, Edmund.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Cole, John James.
  • Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
  • Conlon, Martin.
  • Connolly, Michael P.
  • Cooper, Bryan Ricco.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Craig, Sir James.
  • Crowley, James.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • De Loughrey, Peter.
  • Doherty, Eugene.
  • Dolan, James N.
  • Doyle, Peadar Seán.
  • Duggan, Edmund John.
  • Egan, Barry M.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Thos. Grattan.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Gorey, Denis J.
  • Haslett, Alexander.
  • Hassett, John J.
  • Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
  • Hennessy, Thomas.
  • Hennigan, John.
  • Henry, Mark.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Jordan, Michael.
  • Keogh, Myles.
  • Law, Hugh Alexander.
  • Leonard, Patrick.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
  • McDonogh, Martin.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James E.
  • Murphy, Joseph Xavier.
  • Myles, James Sproule.
  • Nally, Martin Michael.
  • O'Connor, Bartholomew.
  • O'Hanlon, John F.
  • O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearoid.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick.
  • Rice, Vincent.
  • Roddy, Martin.
  • Shaw, Patrick W.
  • Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
  • Thrift, William Edward.
  • Tierney, Michael.
  • Vaughan, Daniel.
  • White, Vincent Joseph.
  • Wolfe, George.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Boland, Patrick.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Daniel.
  • Carney, Frank.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Cassidy, Archie J.
  • Clery, Michael.
  • Colohan, Hugh.
  • Cooney, Eamon.
  • Corkery, Dan.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Davin, William.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Reilly, Thomas.
  • Powell, Thomas P.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Sexton, Martin.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fahy, Frank.
  • Flinn, Hugo.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hayes, Seán.
  • Holt, Samuel.
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
  • Kerlin, Frank.
  • Killane, James Joseph.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, Michael.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • O'Connell, Thomas J.
  • Sheehy, Timothy (Tipp.).
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Tubridy, John.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Francis C.
Tellers—Tá: Deputies Duggan and P. Doyle; Níl: Deputies Davin and Cassidy.
Motion declared carried.
Resolution ordered to be reported.
The Dáil went out of Committee.
Resolution reported.
Question—"That the Dáil agree with the Committee in this Resolution"— put and agreed to.
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