IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 32—GARDA SIOCHANA. – Dáil Éireann (6th Dáil) – Thursday, 1 Nov 1928

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 32—GARDA SIOCHANA.

Mr. BLYTHE

I beg to move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £482,373 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íochta an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1929, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí an Ghárda Síochána (Uimh. 7 de 1925).

That a sum not exceeding £483,373 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Gárda Síchána (No. 7 of 1925).

MINISTER for JUSTICE (Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney)

The total sum which is required for this Estimate this year is £1,588,373. That shows a net increase of £18,508 over last year's Estimate. The main reason for that increase is the automatic increase under Sub-head A due to the payment of annual increments to members of the force. Members enter at a certain rate of wages, and, according as they have years of service, their rate of pay increases. Indeed, the increase under this sub-head would be much larger than what it is were it not that we found it possible this year to diminish the authorised number of sergeants by sixty-two and to substitute guards in their places. That total strength of the Civic Guard force is 7,210. That includes the Guards who are stationed in the Dublin Metropolitan area and who are the successors of the old Dublin Metropolitan Division. It also includes all the Guards who are stationed elsewhere in the Saorstát. The figures are these: there are 1,210 in the Dublin Metropolitan area, and 6,000 Guards in the rest of the country. It might be useful if I compared the present force of the Guards with the force of the Royal Irish Constabulary in the year 1914. On the 1st January, 1914, there were actually serving in the Royal Irish Constabulary, exclusive of the six countries —the figures I am giving are only concerned, of course, with the Saorstát— 7,859, and in the Dublin Metropolitan police 1,211, making the total number 9,070. It will be seen from those figures that the number of Guards stationed in Dublin is practically the same as the number in the old Dublin Metropolitan Police, but the Guards have much harder work to do because there are a greater number of them on traffic duty than there used to be in the old days. It has not been found possible, together with the adequate performance of police duties in Dublin, to reduce the force further than what the strength of the old Dublin Metropolitan Police was. In the rest of the country, however, a very large reduction has been made. We are estimating for this year to have 1,860 less Guards in the country than there were members of the old Royal Irish Constabulary. In the towns the work of the Guards has grown heavier than was the work of the old Royal Irish Constabulary. In the towns especially the work has increased enormously, and if I exclude Dublin, Cork and Limerick I find that the reduction for the remainder of the country works out at twenty-five per cent. That is to say, for policing the Saorstát outside Dublin, Cork and Limerick twenty-five per cent. less men are required than were deemed necessary in the days in which the country was policed by the Royal Irish Constabulary.

Mr. FRENCH

Did the Minister say "loyal" or "royal"?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

I said "royal." The number of stations has also been very considerably reduced. Excluding the Dublin Metropolitan area, the figure now is 840 as against 1,129 Royal Irish Constabulary stations on the 1st January, 1914. When we consider the number of the Guards, not only must we take into account what a very substantial reduction in numbers there has been as compared with that other force, but also that very much heavier work is put upon their shoulders.

Mr. ANTHONY

I desire to draw attention to the fact that there are now only four members of the Government Party in the House while a responsible Minister is speaking. There is only one Minister and only four members of the Government Party present while the Minister is moving a vote which, I may say, has my entire sympathy.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

That is not a matter for the Chair.

Mr. FRENCH

I think it is only fair to say that there is more than one member from the County Cork present.

Mr. DAVIN

On a point of order, are there twenty members present?

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

Is the Deputy asking for a count of the House?

Mr. ANTHONY

I ask for a count of the House.

Mr. AIRD

How many constitute a quorum?

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

There are more than twenty Deputies present, and the Minister may proceed.

Mr. ANTHONY

Are you including some of those outside the barrier?

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

The Minister for Justice.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

In addition to what is the real duty of a police force, the members of the Guards are required to perform a great number of other duties. They have to collect census returns and agricultural statistics. They have to act as ex officio inspectors of weights and measures, inspectors under the Foods and Drugs Act. They have to look after customs duties in regard to the prevention of smuggling, and excise duties in regard to the prevention and detection of illicit distillation.

Mr. DAVIN

On a point of order, are you satisfied that there are twenty members within the House?

Mr. ANTHONY

That is my point, inside the House and not outside the barrier.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

I am satisfied that there were twenty-one members in the House when I was asked a moment ago if there was a House. There is not a House now.

House counted and twenty members being present,

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

The Minister may proceed. There is a quorum now.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

The School Attendance Act, which is a new Act, has thrown a very great burden on the Guards.

Mr. FRENCH

I am very sorry, but I do not think there are 20 members in the House.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

There are 20 members, and I will not hear any more of these interruptions. The Minister.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

As I was saying, they have to enforce the School Attendance Act. They have duties in respect of foot and mouth disease, and in their work in looking after agricultural produce, etc., they are doing the work of agricultural inspectors rather than that of constabulary officers. In addition they have duties to perform in connection with traffic, and as every Deputy knows, traffic has become very much heavier than it used to be.

Mr. FRENCH

I am sorry to interrupt, but there are not 20 members in the House at present. It is really a serious point. The House is being addressed by a Minister of the Government, and there are not seven members of his own Party who will come in to the House to listen to his speech.

I accept that, but if the Government Party have no respect for their own Minister I want to emphasise it, and the only way I can emphasise it is by bringing members into the House to listen to the Minister's statement.

Mr. J.J. BYRNE

Is Deputy Anthony responsible for the conduct of the Government Party?

Mr. ANTHONY

Mr. ANTHONY

I take this opportunity of paying tribute to the officers and men of the Gárda Síochána, and I speak from experience gained not alone in Cork but in other counties in the Free State. In anything I have to say I do not want to appear as casting any strictures upon the Gárda Síochána, because I recognise that for a young force, having regard to the fact that they were brought into being at a time when there was a good deal of political trouble and heat in the country, they have justified themselves before the public. I may add that the Gárda Síochána have earned for themselves the encomiums of many people, and of the police chiefs in other countries, who are entitled to speak with authority.

Knowing what I do about the personnel of the Gárda, knowing that they comprise a body of young men of very high educational qualifications as compared with other men and apart altogether from the question of their physical fitness, I want to say that at some future date I may indicate a way in which their efficiency may be exercised to the fuller benefit of the State. I know that does not arise on the present Vote. I am not going to deal at any length with this Vote. I have attempted to be practical when dealing with many of the Estimates that have come before the House, and I would direct the Minister's attention to some facts brought before me in the last twelve months relating to supplies under Sub-head F —"Furniture, Barrack Bedding and Bedsteads." The sum expended on these matters may be very small when we take into consideration that the total Vote for 1928-1929 is £1,588,373. But it has come to my knowledge that in many Gárda Síochána barracks throughout the country the bedding, bedsteads and most of the furniture are of foreign manufacture. That is a state of affairs the Minister should direct his attention to, and see to it, that even though there may be a slight difference in cost of a pound or two, the furniture and bedding should be of Irish manufacture. That is a matter to which I direct the Minister's attention, and I think if he goes into it he will find I have not exaggerated but rather under-estimated the extent to which this obtains in Gárda Síochána barracks.

While on that subject, and having paid the tribute that I have paid to the Gárda and their discipline, I do know there are foreign agents in this country touting for orders from the Gárda for civilian attire. It has also come to my knowledge that while these orders have been placed in Dublin these civilian suits have been made in London. I want the Minister to take particular notice of this, not that I believe it is within the knowledge of the Gárda when ordering these suits, but the fact remains that these suits have been imported into this country. It may be that the Gárda should have gone further, seeing that they are a national force, drawing public money, and see that these suits of clothes were made in this country.

Now there are one or two matters in connection with the Vote on which I should like to comment. I suggest that in the allocation of barracks there are districts in this country in which a sergeant with four or five men would suffice for a very large area. On the other hand, you may have certain areas throughout the country in which you would require four or five barracks distributed over a particular area. But my experience of Cork, City and County, is that some of the barracks might be termed redundant, and it would be in the best interests of the State, whilst not for a moment advocating an increase in the Gárda Síochána, that there should be better distribution of barracks.

I am not going to give my opinion against the experience of police superintendents, against that of the Chief Superintendent, or that of the Minister, but it frequently happens in the case of the Vote we are discussing, and, indeed, of other Votes which have come under discussion during the session, that the Minister can very often get some useful information from Deputies representing various constituencies. I think if the Minister submits the suggestion which I have made to the superintendents or the Chief Commissioner of the Gárda Síochána, he will find that it is a useful one. It is just as well while we are on this Vote that, having paid a tribute to the Gárda Síochána for their efficiency, courtesy and all-round capabilities as a police force, I should say in support of this Vote that I, personally, am very glad to know that the Gárda Síochána are to-day attracting to their force a large number of young men physically and mentally fit, and that the waiting list is something like 5,000. To me, at any rate, that appears to be a big tribute, not alone to the administration of the Gárda Síochána, but, as I have frequently stated here, to the people of the Saorstát who have made it possible for that force to function. I am not one of those people who like to throw bouquets at any government department, but I feel constrained to say, so far as the Minister's administration of this and, indeed, all branches of his Department are concerned, and in so far as he has control and connection with the Gárda Síochána, I have not heard, so far as I am personally concerned, and I represent a very big constituency, even one justifiable complaint against the administration of the force in the city of Cork. I have, therefore, great pleasure in supporting the Vote.

Mr. RUTTLEDGE

I am not concerned at this stage in joining in a tribute or otherwise to the Civic Guards as Deputy Anthony has done. What we are concerned with is the question of the amount to be voted, and to consider it in the light of what has been voted in previous years. We are being asked by the Minister to vote a sum of £1,588,373. Some comparisons have been made by the Minister between the strength of the police force in the pre-truce or old R.I.C. days and its strength to-day. He may think that the comparisons are favourable to his outlook. He may satisfy himself that the position now compares very favourably with the position as it existed then, but it is only necessary to go into these matters in some little detail to show how unfavourably they do compare. If you take the period 1918 you find that the R.I.C., outside the D.M.P., numbered 9,867 for the whole thirty-two counties, and the cost of the entire force was £1,443,432. If he compares those figures with the figures which he has presented to the House I do not think that the comparison would be as favourable as he would lead us to believe. If we go outside the country and try to get comparisons with other countries we find how unfavourably these figures compare as regards this little country known as the Free State. In France there is one policeman to every 352 civilians, whereas in the Free State the proportion is 1 to 428.

Mr. ANTHONY

How long is it since they had a revolution in France, and how long is it since we had a revolution here? How far do these figures carry us?

Mr. RUTTLEDGE

I am not concerned with the Deputy's revolutions or evolutions at the moment, but I am concerned with facts. If we want to go back to evolutions and revolutions the Deputy can have them. In New South Wales the proportion is one policeman to 784 persons.

Mr. ANTHONY

There has never been a revolution there.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Let the Deputy proceed.

Mr. RUTTLEDGE

In New Zealand the figures are 1 to 1,312.

Mr. ANTHONY

No revolution there.

Mr. RUTTLEDGE

In Scotland the proportion is one to 754, and in England, a country that was involved in some little trouble with this country, if it was not involved in a great war, the figures are 1 to 831. These are comparisons to which we might take our minds back. I think they will show how unfavourably the Free State compares with other countries which may, perhaps, be in better circumstances than this country. The cost per head of the police in this country is, roughly, 10/-. It is a few pence over that amount, but we will give that to the benefit of the other side. In New South Wales it is 5/8½—similarly with other countries. I think there is no country that the Minister can refer to for the purpose of comparison that would compare unfavourably with the Free State. If there is, I would like to hear it. I think it is clear to anybody who takes the trouble to run and read that the Free State is paying more for its police force than practically any other country. Under such conditions, it would be expected that an effort would be made from time to time to try and cut down the force. We had it disclosed in this House in the last few days that the Army is merely an armed police force. I think the Minister for Agriculture was mainly responsible for that, and if you have an army, regarded and recognised as an armed police force, what is the necessity for having this alleged unarmed police force? The question occurs to us, what is the reason for such a large police force? The Minister for Justice treats the House so casually as not to give any particulars whatever as to the necessity for the force. In asking the House to vote away this large sum of over £1,000,000, one would expect that the raison d'etre would be given for keeping the force at its present strength. One would imagine that some particulars would be given of the crime existing in the country compared with the crime of previous years, that some effort would be made to compare these statistics to see how they stand and to see whether any reduction could be made in this redundant police force. That force is not as necessary—or perhaps it may be more necessary, but we should like to hear the Minister's views on it—for being used for political purposes as it was in days past.

Those who were present in this House in 1926 were told that the limit which the Executive authorised for this force was 7,222. The Minister told us to-night that the force, as it at present exists, numbers 7,210. That is within twelve men of the limit which was fixed in 1926. One would have imagined that there would have been some reduction in the police force, or at any rate that some hope would be held out of a possible future substantial reduction of the force. I am sorry Deputy Heffernan is not here. He stated at that time, backed up by Deputy Gorey, that this country was wholly over-policed. I do not know whether Deputy Gorey and Deputy Heffernan, now finding themselves in another part of the House, have not entirely seen through different glasses. Deputy Heffernan, at that time stated: "We are crystallising and perpetuating a system which differs very little in general policy from that which existed in the time of the old R.I.C." He urged the Executive Council to consider seriously how we might effect considerable reductions in the police force of the country. Deputy Heffernan followed that up by definitely suggesting and urging the Executive Council of that time to reduce the police force. He said that it should be reduced by thirty per cent. He stated that out of every one of the 871 barracks in the country, two to three men could be dispensed with. I cordially endorse the views that Deputy Heffernan expressed two years ago. I hope he has not changed so completely, on falling into the lap of the gods or the lap of the Government, whichever it is, and that the views he put forward then and which struck the Government so forcibly have not been forgotten by him to-night.

I would advise Deputy Ruttledge to get the Act and follow it.

Mr. RUTTLEDGE

I do not know what the Minister invited me to do, but I am inviting the Minister to explain the loss of £6,000 there, whether by statute or otherwise, and why this Dáil is asked to provide a sum of £6,000 which formerly would be provided by the City of Dublin. These are the facts, at any rate.

We have been shown that, instead of having a reduction, as we might have expected, there is an increase this year of £18,000, that notwithstanding all that Deputy Heffernan and Deputy Gorey said in 1926, instead of going down the money has gone up by £18,000. Those are the facts and, as I stated, no indication has been given as to when there will be a reduction. The Minister stated at one time that it would soon be down to 25 per cent. below the figure for the R.I.C.

Perhaps the Minister will give us some idea, when he is concluding the debate, as to the reasons for keeping this force at its present strength. We know that there is, from the Government point of view, a very useful adjunct of the force known as the C.I.D. Apparently all the promises that have been made in this House, all the alleged efforts that are being made to try to get them under some sort of control, so far as we can judge have not been very effective. Only in the last two or three days a man going along O'Connell Street was set upon by one of these—I will not call them men— individuals, dragged along the street, without a warrant or anything else and brought into Pearse Street Station. After he was there about three hours he was released, and in the meantime it was discovered that this was done by a member of the C.I.D. That happened on the 29th October, and the name of the man who was seized was Michael Noonan.

I would also like to know if the Minister takes any notice of cases where, when a sergeant or a gárda has given evidence, the District Justice states he does not believe a word he is swearing and dismisses the case. Does the Ministry take any notice of that? I have a particular case in mind where a sergeant, prosecuting a man, swore in the most definite terms that a certain crime had been committed and was backed up in the most definite terms by a local gárda but where the District Justice said he did not believe what the sergeant and gárda swore. His words are on record. The sergeant is still there, very useful, I assume, to the local Cumann na nGaedheal organisation, but from every other point of view, even the Minister's, a most undesirable member of the Civic Guard. Is there any notice whatever taken by the Department of the fact that a District Justice holds that a police officer is telling an untruth, that he is giving evidence that cannot be relied on? I hope that the Minister will deal with that matter when he is replying, and also the other matter to which I have referred. I do not want to go into a whole litany of details of things that happened all over the country. The Minister is conversant with the Newport affair in Tipperary, where some Civic Guards went out, attacked their own barracks, then got into trouble with some people in the town, and decrees were given against them. That sort of thing was very usual some time ago, but I admit it is becoming a good deal less usual. Still there is a great deal of it going on in the country, and perhaps we might be told what the Minister's attitude with regard to it is.

I think, in the words of Deputy Heffernan, that a case has been made for the Government to consider seriously how they might effect considerable reduction in the police force. Deputy Heffernan moved a reduction of £400,000 on a similar Vote to this. Whether he is exactly inside the inner councils of the Government, or is knocking at the door I do not know, but in either position I am sure that he is using his influence to try to get some reasoned outlook into the Minister's mind with regard to this reduction of £400,000 which he thought could be effected in the Civic Guard estimate, and which can be effected. Might I join with him in urging that the Civic Guard force can be reduced, as he urged, by 30 per cent.? That was his view then, and I am sure it is his view to-day. Perhaps I might also urge, at any rate with regard to the more highly paid officials, that the Government might consider Deputy Gorey's view that there could be a substantial reduction in remuneration. I say that with regard to the higher members of the force at any rate. I do not know whether, having changed their positions in the House, the views of these Deputies have changed with that. That very often happens. But in any case their views are there on record. The Minister was asked to consider the matter then, and I urge that he should consider it now in dealing with this estimate.

Mr. DAVIN

I was rather surprised to hear Deputy Ruttledge, with his knowledge of conditions in the country —a knowledge that all legal men must have—describe the police force known as the Gárda Síochána as a redundant or an unnecessary force. He went further and did worse, in my opinion, when he suggested that the force is either a political or semi-political body. I seriously suggest to Deputy Ruttledge, that that is a very dangerous doctrine to preach, and if he ever becomes Minister for Justice he may realise the seriousness of making such a statement against the force. So far as I am concerned I think that the Minister, the Chief Commissioner and the heads of the Gárda Síochána are, generally speaking, entitled to be complimented upon the general conduct of the Gárdaí and the fair and impartial manner in which its members do their duty. One can, as Deputy, Ruttledge has done, cite a particular case—I am not in the least disputing the accuracy of his statement—to show that a sergeant or a member of the Guards in some isolated place has done something unusual or something that would merit the condemnation of the Police Commissioner or the Minister, but there is no use in attempting to condemn the whole force simply because of one particular case.

Mr. RUTTLEDGE

I would like to ask the Deputy how many cases he would like us to produce to convince him that there was something wrong with the force?

Mr. DAVIN

I would much prefer for the safety and well-being of the State that cases of that kind would be given privately to the Minister beforehand, so that the Minister would be given an opportunity of saying what he proposed to do rather than to bring it out in the House, because Deputy Ruttledge, if and when he becomes Minister for Justice, if things are done then as they are done now, will have to face criticism of the same kind.

However, he is entitled to do it, but I think it is a bad policy. Everybody knows that the police force is certainly not a redundant force. In our generation, and under the peculiar circumstances under which this State and Government were established, there will have to be a force of some kind—I cannot say at present what the number should be—in order that people who, otherwise, would abuse the law, would be made respect the law. That position will be just the same when Deputy Ruttledge and his Party come into office as it is to-day. We cannot ignore the fact that public men in this country have been for fifty, sixty or one hundred years, going around encouraging the ordinary man and woman in the street to believe that real patriotism depended on the extent to which the individual could challenge the authority of the day. We have to outlive that, and we can only do it gradually. We cannot all become saints in a year or so. I am sure there will be as much lawlessness when the Fianna Fáil Party comes into power as there is at the present time. I cannot quote figures, but it is natural with the political education we have received that that will go on for a considerable time, and I am sure that Deputy Lemass will agree with me. He will never be able to convert all the sinners into saints when he comes into office. The figures quoted by the Minister, as I took them down, were that the total strength, including the Dublin Metropolitan Division, was 7,210, whereas in pre-Truce days the R.I.C. consisted of 9,070, which shows the difference, as stated by the Minister, to be 1,860.

I want to raise a few points concerning the work of the Guards. I would like to see them a little more active in regard to the administration of the Food and Drugs Acts. I am not quite certain if they are as active in that way in some ways as they are in some areas. Perhaps we will have a word from the Minister when he is replying as to the activity of the Gárda Síochána in the administration of the Food and Drugs Acts. Another matter that I want to draw attention to is this: I want to know whether the Deputy or Assistant-Commissioner Murphy when giving evidence before the Inter-Departmental Committee dealing with traffic regulations expressed the views of the Ministry, or his own personal views, when he recommended the abolition of the speed limit for motor cars. That is one of the most ridiculous suggestions I ever heard, and it really amounts to this, that in this new force every policeman should be a judge of what is dangerous driving, and what should be regarded as a dangerous speed, for a motor car, a bus, or a lorry. I want to know if there was previous consultation between Commissioner Murphy and the Chief Commissioner, or whether he consulted the Department of Justice before giving that evidence, or whether the evidence he gave represented his own particular views. I notice that he has succeeded in persuading the majority of the Inter-Departmental Committee to accept that suggestion and, as a result, I suggest that in a few years we will be experiencing the same kind of traffic regulations, and break-neck speed, as one sees in the city of Paris. I am afraid Commissioner Murphy has seen too much of the city of Paris, and that what he saw in Paris led him into the foolish suggestion of recommending the abolition of the speed limit for motor cars.

It has been rumoured, and I think it is in order to refer to it now, that there is some Committee sitting, considering a further reduction in the pay of the Guards. I am not making this statement with any great authority behind it, but I have been asked if it is true. If it is untrue I would like the Minister to contradict the rumour, and make it definite and clear that there is no further intention of making any attempt at present at a further reduction in the pay of the ordinary Guards. If it was true it might lead to further resignations of some of the older members of the Dublin Metropolitan Guards. Personally I would not like to be a party to any recommendation or suggestion which would force out of the Metropolitan Guards the three or four hundred old members who are still serving in that area.

I would also like to ask the Minister whether there were any general instructions sent out to chief superintendents or to the superintendents regarding the attitude which they should take towards the abolition of redundant public houses. On reading the newspapers circulating in my constituency I find that superintendents going before District Justices in the different courts gave conflicting reasons in support of their demand for the abolition of public houses. It appears to me that it would be better if that was not done, if these superintendents were called together and given general instructions regarding the attitude they were to adopt in matters of that kind. I also want to know whether any general instruction was sent out by the Commissioner or by the Department of Justice, laying it down that motor drivers, omnibus drivers in particular, should not be prosecuted unless it could be proved that the speed exceeded twenty miles per hour. I read a report of one prosecution before a District Justice in my constituency where it appeared that the Superintendent had instructions, verbal or otherwise, of that kind. The Minister knows that the traffic law lays it down that the speed should not exceed twelve miles per hour. I see no reason for issuing any instruction to superintendents to ignore the law as it exists. If that has been done, certainly I think it should not have been done, at any rate until the existing traffic laws have been altered or the speed limit extended. Instructions of that kind should not be issued, if they have been issued. I hope the Minister will deal with that matter in his reply.

Taking the position generally, I am quite satisfied that the police force as it exists to-day is a well-conducted force. Certainly their work as far as I can get any knowledge of it, is generally approved of by all law-abiding persons. I have heard people in my area saying that Sergeant So-and-so or Guard So-and-so is a busybody and is prejudiced. I do not say it is political prejudice, but prejudice towards one publican in favour of another publican. When inquiries are made into complaints of that kind it is generally found that the person who gave rise to the complaint is trying to sell beer after the legal hours, so that to that extent the complaint is groundless. I believe it is the duty of every Deputy to encourage the police force of the time and certainly it is the duty of public representatives, especially members of this House, now or in the future, to do so and enable the force to carry out its duties fairly and impartially. That is what I believe the present Guards are making an honest attempt to do.

Mr. LITTLE

Some of the statements of the Minister for Justice were very interesting indeed. He made a comparison with the numbers of the R.I.C. in the twenty-six counties in 1914 and the number of police at the present time. He did not make any reference to the cost. The cost of the Constabulary alone in the year 1918 was £1,443,422, and that was for the thirty-two counties. The cost now for the twenty-six counties, and I take it this is the net estimate, is £1,588,373. Really it is misleading the House and the country to concentrate upon the matter of numbers and to avoid the question of the cost. Comparisons have already been made by Deputy Ruttledge of the number of people to one policeman in other countries. Ireland is not in the condition which apparently Deputy Davin seems to think it is in. He seems to think it is in a state of unrest of such a kind as to justify a greater expenditure to-day on police than was expended during the time of the R.I.C. If one were to examine the conditions closely I do not suppose that there is as much justification for a police force in Ireland as there is in countries like New Zealand or New South Wales. They have problems of mixed populations there which we have not got. Ireland is one of the most crimeless countries in Europe.

That brings me to another point made by Deputy Davin. He charged Deputy Ruttledge with saying things which would be against what one might call general public policy—saying things against the Guards doing their duty. He did nothing of the sort. He made a case which must be made, that the police at present are being used for semi-political purposes. The police are not merely used for the keeping down of ordinary civil crime, but every police barrack is a centre of information as to the activities of a certain section of the community.

Mr. GOREY

Shame, shame! They ought not.

Mr. LITTLE

The collection of that information may be necessary in a country where there is a section of the people going to disturb the conditions of the State, but I submit it should not be in the hands of the civil police. There is another Vote upon which we do not get much information, and that is the Vote for Secret Service. The amount of that Vote is £10,000. I submit that in a normal country—say, suppose that Ireland were completely a Republic to-morrow—it would be necessary to have a secret service Vote, but I certainly hope that the work of secret service will not be thrown upon the civil police. It is degrading to them; it is forcing them to look for information not merely upon questions of disturbance but upon questions which are really political questions. They are now asked to gather information about the activities of Republicans in their areas. That is the position, and so long as the police are so engaged, they cannot expect to command respect from the general public. They would have that respect if they were merely there to keep the peace and to prevent civil crime. An analogy, to my mind, is the difference between the metropolitan police before the Sinn Fein movement forced them to be unarmed and the time previous to that when they were armed. As soon as they became an unarmed force they gained enormously in the respect of the people, but so long as they were armed, and so long as they were a semi-political force used for crushing Sinn Fein meetings in Dublin City, they had nothing but the hatred of the people. If the police force to-day were strictly limited in their functions to prevent civil crime, and if the other work which the Government might think it necessary to do were carried out specifically by a force for that purpose, it would at least place the police in the country on a higher level.

The contrast between the status of a policeman in Ireland and the status of the average country person is very great indeed. So far as I can make out the cost of each policeman is something over £200, whereas a soldier in the Army costs £130 or £133. The police, therefore, are maintained on a more expensive scale than the soldiers in the Army. Anyone going through the country where the police are stationed is bound to notice the unnecessary number of small police barracks. A second point is the extremely comfortable type of men they are, and how very well dressed they are as compared with the ordinary people. Of course the police should be kept in a proper condition, but there should be some relation between the money expended on them and the surrounding real poverty of the people of Ireland. It brings home to one again that the recruitment of the police is in itself a political manæuvre. Young, strong, healthy men are drawn into the police force who otherwise would emigrate, take up farming or go in for some other line of activity. Their admission to the force may be counted as an asset from the point of view of the Government, as every policeman who gets in means a certain amount of bias in favour of the Party then in power.

The police are used here as they have been used in other countries. It is the same system that has been developed in Germany, the system of developing bureaucracy and developing the police so as to keep the people from wishing for a change in the conditions of Government. The police in their present position cannot be regarded as purely for the putting down of civil crime, and so long as they are in that position they cannot be regarded with the same respect as if they were used merely on the merits of the amount of crime in the country. I believe the force could be reduced enormously if it was to be strictly in proportion to the amount of crime. In England, Scotland and Wales you have one policeman to every thousand inhabitants. There is as much crime in one town in England in a week as would occur in the whole of Ireland in a year and yet the police force there is quite adequate.

Mr. M. HENNESSY

The Deputy is forgetting that every man in England is ready to act as a policeman for the protection of the people and the State. That is not the case in Ireland.

As a matter of fact, I was quite aware of what the Minister has said and did not intend to go into the details of the case, but I feel that I was quite entitled to mention the case now because this was the proper opportunity on the Estimate. If the Minister has an adequate answer, he has ample time to give it to us, and has all the machinery in his hands. I think that is all I wish to say on the matter, except that I hope the Minister will take into consideration that point of view, that the police in their activities should be absolutely and strictly confined to dealing with matters of crime, and should not, under any circumstances, be used for political or semi-political purposes. They have ample methods, as I have already said. They have their secret service money. They have ample methods to do the other work which they, from their peculiar point of view, consider should be done, without degrading the police of this country into carrying out work which simply brings odium upon them.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

As a constant frequenter of the streets in a motor car, I wish to compliment the Minister for Justice on the efficiency and courtesy of the Metropolitan and other Gárda. Now that they have learned their work, they are most efficient. Some three years ago, before they learned their work, they were holding up traffic in a way that was most tiresome and annoying. Within the last year, at all events, they have seen that it is their place to encourage the traffic to go on, and therefore there is no holding up. The desire on the part of the Gárda now is to keep a constant stream of traffic moving. I have only one complaint that I want to mention. A gentleman who came from Tramore told me that on Sunday evening crowds of people, as soon as they could get no more drink in Waterford, crowded out to Tramore, and that the publichouses there were practically open to anyone who wanted to go in. They were not, he thought under any supervision whatever by the Gárda. I want to ask the Minister if he will inquire whether there is any ground for this charge that was made by the gentleman as to the efficiency of the Gárda in that particular district.

Mr. J.J. BYRNE

I think that if there is any estimate that has ever been introduced into this House that deserves the commendation of the House it is the estimate which the Minister for Justice introduced this evening. I listened very carefully to the arguments put forward by the Opposition as to why this Vote should not be passed. Of all the ridiculous arguments that I have ever listened to, the arguments of the official Opposition to-night appear to me to be simply lacking in sense and logic. Deputy Little, who generally is a very logical speaker, put forward one argument as to why the police force should be reduced in this country. He drew a comparison between the police force in the Saorstát per head of the population and the police force in England per head of the population, and pointed out that in England they can do with a much smaller police force per head of the population than we can do with in this country. And then, to cap the whole illusion, in another breath he said there is more crime in England in one week than in Ireland in a year. Now, is that the condition of affairs that Deputy Little wants to see existing in this country? May I ask him what are the objects for which a police force is kept? Why do we maintain a police force at all? I suggest to Deputy Little that the first duty of a police force in any country is that they are in the nature of an insurance against crime. To me it is perfectly obvious that for anything that we have paid by way of insurance—on the admission of Deputy Little himself there is more crime in England in one week than in the Saorstát for a year—we have the Gárda Síochána as a thoroughly efficient and satisfactory force.

Mr. LITTLE

On a point of personal explanation, I pointed out that the British Government was apparently satisfied that its police were efficient to deal with the crime in England.

Mr. BYRNE

We are not concerned with what the British Government have to say in regard to their police.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

It satisfied Deputy Little.

Mr. BYRNE

What concerns us is that the people of the Saorstát are satisfied with the force here as it now exists. As far as I know, and speaking humanly and without any partisanship in the matter, I have never heard from any party in the city of Dublin—and I am as closely in touch with both parties as any member of this House— any complaint made in connection with the police force. I will only just point out one little sinister feature, or perhaps I should say two, that exist at the moment in the life of the city. In North Dublin City, where I reside, there has been within the past month or two a serious increase in the number of accidents due to motor traffic. Now, who are the main guardians of the people as far as these accidents are concerned? I suggest the police are. We had an accident a week or two ago outside Marlborough Street Schools. Whether a constable was there or not I do not know, but I suggest that more protection, if possible, should be given in the case of children coming out of the schools in the afternoon than is afforded at the moment. That would lead not to an increase in the cost of the police force, as it now stands, but rather to a diminution. We heard a lot of talk this afternoon about what is being done in other countries. Deputy Ruttledge brought us away to France, New South Wales, New Zealand and Timbuktu.

Have Deputies lived in these countries? A comparison has been made between Ireland and England. Let us come down to bedrock. I have had experience of living in England for a number of years, and I speak from experience when I say that so far as the efficiency of the police force is concerned, and as far as the safety of the subject and the protection of the people are concerned, there is no comparison whatever between the police force in Ireland and the police force in England. If you want to find a policeman in England in a time of crisis how long does Deputy Little think it would take to find one? I remember on one occasion in the City of Liverpool a man coming to my door and demanding admission to the house. None of the inmates of the house had ever seen him and would not admit him. He refused to go away and they sent out to endeavour to get a constable to do his duty. The person who went out was away three-quarters of an hour and no constable arrived. In the finish I myself had to go out to that man and act as a sort of constable myself, though not physically fitted for the job, and it took me two hours before I could get in touch with a policeman.

Mr. CLERY

I hope you did not handle him too roughly.

Mr. BYRNE

Well, anyway I had the pluck to do the job, and I carried it out. It is all very well to talk of reductions in the police force. Possibly, Deputy Little would say one of the means would be a reduction of the pay. I do not think I would be inaccurate if I say, and I think the Minister would agree, that the conditions of pay existing in the police force are not to the satisfaction of the force. I can go further and say that better salaries and hours are available in the police force across the Channel—a force that is not nearly as efficient as ours. I believe there has been a certain leakage of very good highly-trained men from our force across the Channel attracted by the better conditions there. If you want to have a satisfactory policeman you must give him reasonable remuneration for his work. Deputy Little made the point that if they were not employed in the police force they would be forced to emigrate. I have always contended that no matter what conditions exist there will be a certain amount of emigration. My attention was drawn to the fact that strong men come up from the country and finish their training here, and when they have spent sufficient time in the force to save up enough money they emigrate to America. There are causes for emigration other than economic ones. Here we have with regard to the police force two causes operating at the present time to check its efficiency. We may ask what is the reason for it.

We have been told the police force as it now exists is semi-political. I suggest that when statements of that kind are made in this House some reasonable evidence should be forthcoming to substantiate them. Wild statements of that kind do no good to anyone, and they hurt the morale of the force. We know that the force during the past few years has gone through difficult times, and the phases of crime that existed a few years ago no longer exist in the State. As Deputy Davin remarked, I think it is the duty of every public representative not to injure the morale of the police force but to do everything within his power to increase the efficiency of the force. I heard the Minister explain sub-head after sub-head in the Vote, and I think his explanation is one that would satisfy any reasonable man. He went through the strength of the force, and he pointed out that there has been a reduction of 1,860 in the Gárdaí as compared with the old R.I.C. in the Saorstát. That is a very substantial reduction. He pointed out as far as the city of Dublin was concerned the police force is at the same level now as it was a year or two ago. No man coming up from the country, no man who has occasion to pass through the city, will contend that the amount of work thrown on the force by motor traffic, the new buses, and a thousand and one other things has not considerably increased.

I heard the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance this evening telling the story of how Dean Swift when he found a little hole in a tablecloth made it larger and larger until he could drink soup out of it, and he pointed out that a Deputy who had criticised the Board of Works was attempting to expose that Department in a manner similar to that of the Dean. I think Deputy Little has been similarly engaged. There has been no valid reason given as to why this Vote should not be passed. When listening to the Minister's reasons for the increase in the Vote I considered that no more satisfactory reasons could have been adduced. The Minister explained that under one sub-head the increase was due to the annual increment. He turned to another sub-head and explained that the increase in that was due to the allowances given to a number of men in the force who had got married. Could anything be more satisfactory than that? These young men in the force who settle down are the men we can rely on. These are the men who are doing their duty, and these are the men who if Deputy Little's Party, or the Labour Party or my Party have occasion to call on their services will ungrudgingly and willingly get them.

MICHEAL O CLEIRIGH

Ba mhaith liom freagra a fháil ó'n Aire ar chupla ceisteanna sul a gcuirtear deire leis an diosbóireacht seo. Buaileann daoine isteach orm-sa agus deireann siad go bhfuil Gárdaí ag a bhfuil Gaedhilg san nGaeltacht ach nach mbaineann siad aon usáid aistí. An bhfuil a fhios ag an Aire go bhfuil na Gárdaí seo ag tabhairt droch-shompla do mhuinntir na n-áiteanna seo? Má tá Gaedhilg ag na Gárdaí san nGaeltacht ba cheart dóibh a bheith cúramach nach ndéanfaidh siad aon nídh chun an meas atá ag na Gaedhil ar a dteangain do laghdú. Sé sin an rud atá siad a dhéanamh—ag tabhairt droch-shompla do na daoine, ag déanamh gach rud atá Gállda, ag déanamh Seoiníní díobh féin.

Chuala mé fhéin Gárdaí ag a bhfuil Gaedhilg mhaith—Gaedhilg níos fearr b'fhéidir ná mar atá agam-sa—ag déanamh magaidh faoi'n Ghaedhilg agus faoi na Gaedhil san nGaeltacht. Ní deas an rud san ó Ghaedheal. Nílim ag fáil lochta ar na Gárdaí uilig mar gheall ar seo. Ach ba cheart do no Gárdaí seo athrú do dhéanamh agus an sprid Gaedhealach atá ionnta—mar atá i gach Gaedheal óg—do neartú. Ba cheart do'n Aire no do thaoisigh an Ghárda a chur in iúl do na Gárdaí seo atá san nGaeltacht agus atá in ánn Gaedhilg do labhairt gur ceart dóibh deagh-shompla, in ionad droch-shompla, do thabhairt do na daoine. Is furus don Aire an méid sin do dhéanamh agus ní bhéidh morán costais air.

Rud eile, dubhairt múinteoirí scoile liom go bhfuil Gárdaí, imeasc daoine eile—ní h-iad na Gárdaí amháin ar a bhfuilim ag fáil lochta—ag cur obair na scoileanna ar neamh-ní toisc go bhfuil siad ag cainnt i mBeurla leis na páistí agus ag tabhairt isteach rudaí Gállda——damhsaí Gállda agus cleasa Gállda— in ionad damhsaí agus cleasa nGaedhalach. Dá bhfuigheadh siad so comhairle—is dó liom go mba leor san—ó'n Aire ná ó thaoisigh an Ghárda táim sásta go mbeadh athrú ann agus bheadh níos mó measa ag na daoine ar na Gárdaí agus gan morán le déanamh acu san mbearraic. Muna bhfuil Gaedhilg acu, tá am go leor acu chun an teangadh d'fhoghluim. Ba cheart féachaint chuig sin freisin.

Tá a lán cainnte annseo mar gheall ar droch-shaoranacht agus deagh-shaoranacht. Do réir mo thuairime, ní féidir leis an Gárda no leis an Airm, cibé lionmhaire atá siad, cosc no deire do chur le clampar no trioblóid in aon tír. Sé an taon nidh amháin a cuirfheas cose le clampar ná meas a bheith ag na daoine orra féin agus meas a bheith acu ar an Rialtas atá acu de bharr deagh-dhlighthe agus deagh-ghíoín. Má fheachann an Rialtas chuige, sin ní bheidh an méid céanna Gárdaí ag teastáil uatha.

Ceapaim freisin go bhfuil an iomarca bearraic ann. Is dó liom go bhfuil an Rialtas ag leanúint do réir an scéim a bhí annseo faoi'n tsean-réim. Síleann siad gur ceart bearraic a bheith in gach áit in a raibh sé san am atá thart. Ach tá athrú ann anois agus ba chóir don Rialtas a scéim féin a cheapadh. Dá ndéanfadh siad seo, bheith airgead le spáráil acu le h-aghaidh rudaí eile. Thiocfadh leo an tairgead seo a chaitheamh san nGaeltacht ar rudaí go mbeadh tairbhe ionnta do na daoine.

SEAN O GUILIDHE

Aontuighim le Teachta Micheál O Cléirigh mar gheall ar gach nidh adubhairt sé i dtaobh na Gardaí. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil ins an Ghaoltacht Gárdaí ná fuil aon Gaoluinn acu, ná aon mheas acu ar an nGaoluinn. Ní ceart é sin. Na rudaí eile atá le rá agam abrochaidh mé as Béarla iad.

Somebody has said that it appears to have been the policy of the Government to place barracks where the British Government had barracks in the old days, and to instal as many men in them as there were R.I.C. men formerly. It appears to me as if that policy were being followed, because in many remote parts where there is no crime, where the people are absolutely peaceful and law-abiding, I see in the Estimates that sums of £1,500 are provided for building nice houses. In these buidings there are three or five or seven men whose work, as far as one can see, is practically nil. I know of one particular area myself, between two fairly populous towns with a good police force in each town. Would it not be possible to have these remote areas patrolled by motor cycle police? In these days police forces are more mobile than they used to be even ten years ago. Would it not be possible, therefore, to have these remote areas regularly patrolled from the larger centres? It would avoid the necessity for putting up expensive buildings, especially in rather poor districts, affording a rather strong contrast very often with the houses of the people who have to pay for these buildings. Many of the houses in the immediate neighbourhood of these barracks are very poor houses—many of them are in ruin. It makes a very strong contrast when a fine new, expensive building is put up, housing a certain number of men who have very little to do, in the midst of these other houses. I do not blame the men. I suppose they do their work as best they can, but they have very little to do. The people are saying to-day what they said in the old days about the R.I.C.: "Why have we so many police; what do we want them for?"

Deputy Byrne, I think it was, asked us to produce any evidence of political bias. I am sorry to say that I am in a position to do so. I do not know whether the county I come from is more unfortunate in this respect than others. Deputies will remember a law case some time ago in connection with certain happenings in the Co. Waterford. An action was taken by civilians against certain members of the Gárda Síochána, and rather substantial damages were given against these Gárdaí. In another part of that county just as bad treatment was meted out to other men, but as that incident may give rise to another civil action, I had better not enter into it. What I wish to stress is that apparently these men, who were found guilty in the court of conduct unworthy of any civilian, let alone a police officer, are still retained in the service. It would be desirable that every effort should be made to rid the force of men of this type. A certain barracks with which I am acquainted was attacked at night at that time. Everybody in the district knows who attacked the barracks. It was attacked by some of these men, and these men are still in the force. I regret to say that apparently others of their type are still in the force. I have here a letter, some of which does not make very pleasant reading, but perhaps it will emphasise the fact that some men of this type are apparently in the force yet, and it will possibly make the matter clear if I read some extracts. It is from the husband of a postmistress in the County Waterford who has no connection with politics. The letter says:—

"As you are aware, my wife is postmistress here. On Friday, the 12th inst., two men called at the office and asked to see the cash book. Thinking they had come from the head office at Cork for the purposes of an inspection she handed one of them the book and asked if they had come from Cork. One of them replied, saying they had come from Cappoquin. She then went upstairs for the P.O. cash. When she turned round to return with the cash she found to her amazement that one of the strangers had followed her and was standing beside her in her bedroom. At this time I came into the house from the yard and went upstairs where I found my wife almost in a state of collapse. I asked what was the matter, and the stranger replied in a rather dogged tone, saying: ‘What's the matter with who?' My wife then gave me to understand that this man had come from the Post Office to inspect the books and that it was all right, so I returned downstairs, although I thought it strange that he should be in one of the bedrooms. I found another man in the kitchen, evidently taking stock of all it contained, and, from his actions and manner, wanting everybody to understand he was a member of the C.I.D.. I then left the house. What subsequently happened was as follows; My wife was kept for four hours in her bedroom, having become too weak from fright to be able to leave it; all the while having to reply to questions relating to the office and also to questions which apparently had nothing to do with it. At one time she had to go down to the kitchen. When passing through the kitchen she asked her assistant to warm a little milk for her, but he ordered the assistant not to do so. She again returned upstairs, and being by this time unable to stand she sat on the bed. He followed and, sitting opposite to her resumed his questioning. After a while, his companion having succeeded in frightening the assistant, and having satisfied himself as to the contents of every drawer and cupboard in the house, went also upstairs to the bedroom, and for the remainder of the time stared insolently into the face of my wife. What all this meant I am at a loss to understand. No inquiries regarding any loss or irregularity in connection with this office had until then been made; neither did those men state the object of their visit. I can only surmise that it was in connection with the Savings Bank Book. the property of ——. This book had been sent to Dublin during July and had not been returned to him, although he had written several times for it. Those men had the book in their possession, and upon producing it asked my wife to explain some discrepancy in dates which it contained and in forms relating to it, but being in such a condition mentally and physically because of the drastic treatment received from them she was unable to recollect or explain anything. The difference in the dates which I have referred to was simply a clerical error which may occur in any office ..."

The other details are not of much importance.

These men were apparently police officers and surely police officers, calling on people in connection with a matter of this kind, should not behave as they did, for this seemed to be Black-and-Tanism in excelsis. I might mention another instance which occurred outside my own house. One night a country man was proceeding home—a man who has no connection with any political movement—when he was held up by these gentlemen—not uniformed members of the force but ununiformed members. He was questioned as to where he had been and he was told that he had been seen talking to the secretary of the local Fianna Fáil club. They wanted to know what he was talking about and why he remained so long talking to the secretary of the Fianna Fáil club and when the man protested about being searched they said "Don't get the wind up. You will have plenty of company." That is not the sort of conduct that will make the police force respected. These incidents referred to in the letter which I read are disgraceful, and, in the interests of the force, every effort should be made to see that men capable of doing this sort of thing should not be tolerated in the force. As a rule, I must admit, I have found the police courteous and careful but undoubtedly there exists amongst them a certain number of men who would be a disgrace not alone to a police force but to any civilised country in the world.

Mr. BRISCOE

I quite agree that in discussing a matter involving the nature and conduct of the police force generally, it is only fair that those who criticise or comment favourably should have some experience or some knowledge of what they are discussing. I wish to contribute in a slight degree to the debate and to say that as far as Dublin city is concerned in one way we are possibly a great deal more fortunate than other parts of the twenty-six counties and that in another aspect we are much less fortunate. We have here in Dublin city a police force consisting of two arms. We have the ordinary force that would be classed as equivalent to the old D.M.P. and in regard to whom I have nothing to say except the highest praise. I had occasion to transact certain business where I had to have their aid and their help and I must say the ordinary uniformed police force in the matter of ordinary police duties as far as Dublin city is concerned, with very few exceptions, is a force upon which the people is to be congratulated.

On the other hand, we have what is called the equivalent of the old "G" Division, sometimes called the C.I.D. I say this in no sense of guessing, but absolutely straight and premeditated that a good many members of the C.I.D. of whom I have had experience in the city are men who are definitely the remainder of a political organisation, absorbed or taken into the police force for nothing except political work. The men I have in mind never had the training or experience that would permit them in present circumstances to hold the positions they do, and to hold the peace of the city on occasions in the hollow of their hands. Most of us on these benches have had experience at one time or another of raids in the past, and have been subjected to all kinds of inquiry and indignity by these people. I do not want to go into the past or say whether it was right or wrong to have those people for that purpose, but I say in present circumstances a great many of these men should be put to other employment. I do not say they should be disbanded or discharged or sent away, but I do say that a great many of these men, from their service and previous occupation, should now be taken and absorbed in the ordinary police force. They should receive the ordinary training which the ordinary recruit gets when he joins the force. They should be properly disciplined and not put out on the streets until after a certain number of months' service had been spent in the barracks in training, where they should remain until they learn the ordinary routine of the police duties. Then they should be put out amongst the uniformed men for a period to get personal contact with police duties through intercourse with the ordinary citizen. Subsequently, if a man is fit to be drawn out of the ordinary uniformed force, and put into the detective force—I wish to lose sight of the description "C.I.D."—when fit for that work, well and good. At the present time there are men classed as Gárda and paraded as Gárda, and, as far as I am concerned, I wish to say it is an insult to the ordinary police force of Dublin to call them either Gárda or policemen; they are neither one nor the other. I am prepared, if called upon by any member of the Department of Justice, to give a long list of details which might serve some useful purpose and might improve conditions. I have said on other occasions that I am satisfied that some of these members are only too glad to provoke breaches of the peace. I said on a public platform on one occasion that I believe from their actions they would be only too glad to see disturbance going on.

I would like to ask one or two questions arising out of the introduction of this Estimate. The Minister mentioned a figure in connection with barracks in occupation by Gárda throughout the country, and said that the number of such barracks was less now than during the time of the R.I.C. I would like to know if the Minister took into consideration in his calculations the 130 odd barracks now under construction, as appears in the Vote for the Office of Public Works. Would that figure increase the number of barracks that are available now?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

No.

Mr. BRISCOE

These are taken into consideration. I am satisfied with that. In the Vote itself I notice on page 111 the item "Superannuation and retired allowance," amounting to £136,495.

On turning to Vote 16 I cannot bring it into line with any figure in that Vote, and I would like if the Minister would tell us where it comes from. I see item "L" of Vote 16 specifies pensions, gratuities to members of the Gárda Síochána including members of the old D.M.P., £63,000, but under which item of that Vote are the superannuation and retiring allowances referred to under Vote 16?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

If the Deputy looks at page 74 I think he will find the particulars he wishes.

Mr. BRISCOE

I have nothing further to say except to ask the Minister to consider the advisability of absorbing into the ordinary police force the members of the C.I.D. who have not had ordinary training in police work. Perhaps then, after a certain period, a number of the grievances that have been expressed, and which may possibly be expressed further from these benches, will disappear.

Mr. T. SHEEHY (Cork)

As a Southern Deputy I wish to add my testimony to that already paid by Deputy Anthony to the efficiency of the Gárdai. In the South we are proud of the Guards. We recognise them as a great pillar of the State, and we believe that they are doing their duty faithfully and conscientiously to the Treaty and to the Constitution.

Mr. LEMASS

Hear, hear.

Mr. SHEEHY

I went through two General Elections and no one could say that the Guards took any part whatever with regard to politics. They carried out the law impartially between all candidates, and at the declaration of the poll all the candidates bore testimony to the impartial and fair manner in which they discharged their duties. I would appeal to the House to pass this Estimate unanimously. I have listened to the speeches this evening for the last two or three hours. They were all more or less moderate, and they all recognised that in the Free State we must have a police force. None of them stated that our present police force should be done away with, though some said that their numbers should be reduced. If the Deputies who hold that view would take one step forward and would stand firmly to the oath they took when entering this House to be loyal and true to the Constitution and Treaty we could then run the country with a reduced police force and a reduced Army. The same arguments were put forward about the Army as about the police. There were sneers at the boys in green, but the boys in green have come to stay as well as the Guards, and they will be here when all of us have long passed to our reward, upholding what they were organised for, namely, to keep the State as firmly and solidly as it is to-day.

Mr. LEMASS

It was not my intention to intervene in this debate, because I had very little hope that I would be able to convince the Minister of the error of his ways and the falsity of his arguments, but now that one whom I can regard as an ally has entered the House I can attempt to do so. That ally is the Minister for Agriculture. It appears that the Minister for Justice is under the impression that the police force consists of 7,210 men. It is to be regretted that he was not present when the Minister for Agriculture was speaking on the Army Estimate a few days ago and when he informed the House that in addition to the 7,210 men in the Civic Guards we had 12,500 policemen in the Army. If the Minister for Agriculture is correct we, therefore, have 20,000 policemen in the country, and it must be remembered that the functions of the Civic Guard, as defined by the Minister for Justice, do not differ one iota from the functions of the Army, as defined by the Minister for Agriculture. We have both forces serving the same functions and both costing the State several millions between them. The Government from time to time professes its anxiety for economy, and Deputies frequently emphasise the need for economy. Surely there is here an avenue along which it is possible to achieve economy. We have two forces performing the same functions.

I am trying to quote the Minister's exact words: "Both established for the purpose of ensuring that the people of the country will have the right to do wrong." 12,500 men in the Army, established for the purpose of ensuring that the people of the country will have the right to do wrong and 7,210 men in the Civic Guards established—I hope the Minister will agree—for the same purpose of ensuring that the people of the country will have the right to do wrong. If, as Deputy after Deputy repeatedly assured us, this is one of the most crimeless countries in the world; and if, as Minister after Minister assured us, any abnormal conditions which heretofore existed are now rapidly disappearing, it is possible to combine the functions of these forces, thus to reduce their numbers, and incidentally reduce the cost of both. The Minister for Justice is apparently very definitely of the opinion that the functions of the Civic Guard are not what are normally regarded as police functions in other countries. He compared the number of Civic Guards now in the Twenty-six Counties with the number of members of the R.I.C. in the Twenty-six Counties in 1914. He also compared the number of Civic Guard stations now in the Twenty-six Counties with the number of R.I.C. barracks in 1914, and by doing so and claiming credit for that argument, he has undoubtedly conveyed the impression that the functions of the Civic Guard are identical with those of the R.I.C. in 1914. The functions of the R.I.C., as stated by Sir Hamar Greenwood or somebody of that ilk, were identical with the functions of the National Army as stated by the Minister for Agriculture.

Mr. HOGAN

Or Balfour.

Mr. LEMASS

Any of them. They all talked much the same. The Minister has probably studied the various replies they gave to identical questions asked of the British Government. Certainly he has all the phraseology.

Mr. MacENTEE

What is bred in the greenwood comes out in the Minister for Agriculture.

Mr. LEMASS

We know, and some Cumann na nGaedheal Deputies know, that the R.I.C. was not a police force as such. It was the active service unit of the British army of occupation in this country. Their function was not merely to ensure that people had lights on their carts, drove on the left-hand side of the road, and did not beat their wives. They had a definite function, namely, to ensure that the authority of the British Parliament would be maintained in this country against the wishes of the Irish people, and when the Minister compared the relative strength of the R.I.C. with that of the Civic Guard, he gives the impression that the Civic Guard should have the same functions and perform the same duties in the Free State as the R.I.C. performed here some years ago. I would like if the Minister would correct that impression, and if he modifies his statement in concluding the debate and asserts, as I believe he will, that the Civic Guard have no other duties to perform except the normal duties of a police force, he will, perhaps, find that he has much difficulty in justifying the actual number of the Civic Guards. The number of police in this country, in proportion to the number of the people, is higher than in the majority of countries. It is much higher than in England or Scotland or Wales, and yet we know that the conduct of our people is much better than that of the people in those countries. Our people are not as addicted to crimes as the people in the large towns in England and Scotland. Deputy J.J. Byrne tried to maintain that that was due to the fact that the Civic Guards are here in such numbers.

It is not the case, as Deputy Hennessy by way of interruption pointed out, that there is a very decided difference between the attitude of the English people towards their police and the attitude of the Irish people to the Civic Guard. Deputy Hennessy said that every man in England is a policeman and is anxious and willing to assist the police forces in the detection of crime. That attitude does not exist so strongly in Ireland for the reason that there are too many policemen here. Take the average Irish village with half a dozen public houses, a few cottages and a police station with five or six Civic Guards. If anything occurs in that village—two men fighting at a street corner or a man runs away with another man's chickens—everybody says "Oh, there is something for the police to do at last, thank God, it will prevent them getting too fat." That is the attitude. They see the policemen have nothing to do but hanging round the barrack door or strolling up and down the village street and they are rather glad that anything should happen which makes them feel that they are getting value for the money they are spending on the police. In England, where there is only one policeman to every five or six thousand of the population, the instinct of self-preservation makes everybody anxious to help the police and makes everybody try to do what in them lies to prevent any crime. It is because we have too many policemen that we have not got the right attitude towards the detection and suppression of crime here. We do not object to the adequate payment of members of the police force and I think if Deputy Byrne—I am sorry he is not here—compares the average rate of payment in Britain to the English police force with the rate of payment here he will find that we pay our police force much more.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

Oh no, far less.

Mr. LEMASS

I am sorry that I am not able to produce the figures now but I got a report issued by the British Government concerning the various rates of pay in the numerous police forces in England, and I found that on the average, rank for rank, the pay is much less in England. If the Minister can correct me I will be glad. Personally I think the police are adequately paid. A man in barracks provided with his clothes, his food and housing accommodation and with £3 or £3 10s. per week, pocket money, is not badly paid. As a matter of fact I was reading a newspaper article last Sunday by a well-known journalist who asserted that no member of the Civic Guard considers himself properly equipped unless he has a dress suit and a kit bag.

Major COOPER

Does Deputy Lemass read the English Sunday papers?

Mr. LEMASS

I read that one and I have never objected to anybody else reading it. Certainly I was rather interested to hear that item of news, because we do not get that type of news in an Irish paper. No member of the Civic Guard considers himself properly equipped unless he has a dress suit and a kit bag. You can imagine what happens in Rosmuck, the Glenties or the Rosses—members of the Civic Guard parading down to the dance hall in their dress suits, and they are under the impression that they are badly paid! They can afford to go around regularly in dress suits when they are not in uniform. We are rather glad that we have got 7,210 people in this country who can go about in dress suits. Five or six years ago we could not parade that number of people in dress suits. We have them scattered throughout the country to give a tone to the social life of our towns and villages. That is rather satisfactory, but, unfortunately, the members of the Civic Guard do very little else except to give tone to the social life of our towns and villages. The purpose for which we want them is not to parade at village dances in dress suits, but to ensure that any person who wants to disobey the laws enacted by this Assembly will get what is coming to him. Mind you, that can be ensured. The Civic Guard in the detection and the suppression of minor crime, at any rate, have been remarkably successful. They have been remarkably unsuccessful in solving the bigger sensational crimes that have occurred in the last few years, but that is possibly due to circumstances not in their control.

The fact is that they have been reasonably efficient as a police force, but unfortunately we have to come to the conclusion that there is not enough work to justify such a number of them, or to prevent a number of them from becoming ineffective through sheer idleness. These remarks are with reference to the normal police force provided for in the estimate alone. They do not cover the 571 who cannot be described as policemen in the ordinary sense. They consist of 235 Gárdaí on detective duties and 336 in plain clothes. I hope the Minister will tell us the exact difference between a Gárda engaged in detective duties and a Gárda in plain clothes. There seems to be a distinction, because the Gárda detective on duty gets 7/- per week extra, while the Gárda in plain clothes only gets 5/- a week extra. Apparently there must be a distinction and a difference in the amount of work to be done. Unfortunately, in connection with those 571 people I cannot say any word of praise. Deputy Davin seems to think that it is a dangerous doctrine to preach that the Civic Guard is a political or a semi-political force. It is a dangerous doctrine, but it is much more dangerous to suppress the fact when we know that it is so. I can prove to any committee or to any court, or to any person who wants it proved, that the Civic Guards did act as an election machine for Cumann na nGaedheal last September. I can produce men who saw them in the barracks in Leixlip, in County Kildare, with a series of Cumann na nGaedheal posters in the day-room posting them up on boards to display them round the town.

I can produce hundreds of men all over the country who can declare that they have seen Civic Guards defacing and tearing down the posters of other political parties. I have seen them doing it myself. I can produce several hundred witnesses who will prove that the Civic Guards have interfered, without any justification whatever, in the political activities of members of this Party. I never yet travelled down the country for the purpose of addressing meetings, and I was not in the hotel until every Civic Guard or detective in the county was hanging round the street corners watching the people who were coming in and going out to see who was meeting me. That happens to the members of this Party everywhere they go. You may placard the hoardings for weeks before the meeting, and announce it in the local papers that you are coming, but they do not believe it until they see you are there, and they are always there to make sure you arrive.

It may be that they are protecting us, but I do not think that is so; in view of the several other types of cases, in which we could produce rather startling evidence, I have definitely come to the conclusion that it is not so. These cases—cases of assault by members of the Civic Guard—have occurred, and are regularly occurring, throughout the country. The Minister used some phrase in connection with them when the matter was raised by a question. I think "technical assault" was the phrase he used when the Civic Guards took a man into a barracks, hit him a few punches, and turned him out again.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

I beg your pardon. The words I used were "trivial assault," that being the verdict found by the jury in the Cork case.

Mr. LEMASS

A trivial case?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

The jury found that the assault was trivial.

Mr. LEMASS

Mr. T. O'REILLY

There are some places in this country where the duty of compiling the Parliamentary Register devolves on the Civic Guards. Kerry is one of these places. My experience is that they work in a very partial manner. They disfranchised hundreds of Fianna Fáil voters in Kerry at the last election and they went so far as to tear down Fianna Fáil posters from the gates at some of the polling booths. I can only come to the conclusion that they are a semi-political body, and I leave it at that.

Quite recently I had to draw attention to another case, that of a returned American who could not go up and down the streets of Carrick-on-Shannon without being followed by the Gárda. One night they molested him and attempted to shoot him. These things are not fair. Down at Arigna recently a man named Cull was arrested and charged, I believe, with having caused the Portumna fire. That man was living a hundred miles from Portumna and the Garda knew very well that he was not there. He was brought to the barracks and detained for a considerable time.

Then there is the case of ex-Deputy Seán O'Farrell, mentioned by Deputy Lemass and Deputy Little. I think these things are a scandal and it is a scandal that we are paying men for doing these things. I think it is very unfair. I certainly say in respect to the number of the Garda and the cost that it is excessive. In every little town in the country there are Garda barracks and in them there are four or five men. In Carrick-on-Shannon there are ten or eleven men. I do not know what use they are. I do not see them do any work. As far as we are concerned, I think the sexton of the chapel would be quite competent to do the police work and if he wanted assistance all he need to do was to ring the bell. I cannot understand why there should be ten or eleven men kept there. As well as that, there are two or three C.I.D. officers going about the country arresting men like Seán O'Farrell and Cull and throwing men's turf out on the mud and the rain. Why have that large number of them? Why is this tremendous sum asked of the taxpayers of the country? We cannot afford it and the sooner we get it into our heads and the sooner the Government gets it into their heads, to cut down that force to a figure that we can be expected to pay, the better.

Mr. MAGUIRE

In opposing this Vote, I do so on two grounds. First, that the amount of money being spent on the maintenance of the Gárda force is entirely in excess of the actual requirements of the State; and, secondly, because I believe from actual experience that that force is being maintained for the purpose of propagating the doctrines of one political party in the State. There is not the smallest doubt about it. While listening to the statements made by the Minister, we on the opposite side were told of the services of the Gárda Síochána. We were told that their services were for the general good, and that their services were at the disposal of all parties on all occasions, including specifically the last two elections. The Minister may have made that statement in good faith. I know I am not an exception, but I have to take exception to certain experiences, and I am sorry that I have to make this statement. I am sorry because we realise that a police force is necessary in this, just as it is in any other State, and I realise that in the police force of the Gárda Síochána we have good, honest and sincere young men, men who would be a credit to any service to which they would be asked to give their services. But when I find that the experience of these young men who have joined up that force is that the officer immediately in charge of them, their superior officer immediately in charge, has taken a certain definite action in regard to politics in this country, and that that action has been extended to the extent of actually assaulting the citizens of this State, and that that immediate superior officer's conduct has been condoned by the higher authorities in charge of his Department, and that the entire conduct and misconduct of that man and other officers is condoned by the Minister responsible in this House; when on various occasions acts of violence on the part of this man have been questioned here the Minister gets up and condones it, and the only extenuation or excuse he offers is that these acts should be brought into the law courts and the cases tried there, then we understand the position. When you find a responsible Minister in this House taking up that attitude you can only come to the conclusion that he condones these acts and that he knows that these acts are going on. He knows how impossible it is for a civilian living under the terrorism of a force such as the Gárda Síochána, how impossible it is to expect him to bring forward evidence in these circumstances to prove his case in court. In the last June and September elections I had experience of the Civic Guards acting under the control of their sergeant and their superintendent also. They were actually standing by when the tri-colour, the flag of this State, was torn down by opponents of ours in that fight, and for that act no arrest was made, although the superintendent of the Gárda was standing on the street and actually watched the transaction.

That action was reported to headquarters in Dublin, but no report ever came back as to what the findings on it were. The fact remains, at any rate as far as we can see, that the officers concerned were left in their positions and are still in them. I am informed that the sergeant in charge, in addition to the salary he draws as a sergeant in the police force, has since been awarded a pension for military services, which are a rather doubtful commodity as far as he is concerned. As to the statement made by the Minister for Agriculture that members on this side of the House were given assistance and that he had never heard of them being prevented from holding public meetings—I have no experience myself of being prevented from holding a public meeting—I have the experience that supporters of mine and of our Party who attended meetings at which I spoke were assaulted in the presence of Civic Guards, and no action was taken. I was not present in the House when reference was made to an assault recently on a man in my county —Seán O'Farrell, ex-T.D. I have heard the particulars of that case. This man attended a committee meeting of the Gaelic League. At the conclusion of the classes he was taken from that meeting, and the condition in which he came back from the Civic Guard station after being there for two hours, was visible to everyone who met him. His own statement is that he was grievously assaulted by the person who arrested him—a C.I.D. man. He states that while he was being assaulted in the barracks he called in the assistance of some Guards. The sergeant in charge came into the room in which he was being beaten by the C.I.D. man, and stood there watching the proceedings. He was beaten into a battered and bruised condition in the presence of the sergeant, who stood there watching the proceedings.

There is no use in the Minister getting up and stating, as he did on a previous occasion, that the courts are open to these men. There is no use in the Minister denying these charges, or in trying to minimise them, for, if evidence is required, ample evidence can be brought forward to prove the facts as stated. If the Minister is going to endeavour to maintain a service in this country the members of which act in such a way as I have outlined, he certainly cannot maintain that that is a service that is essential to the well-being of this State. If, as I stated at the opening, a Vote was asked for the service of a police force that was doing real essential service, one that would be impartial and that would engage in the detection of crime, one that would see that there was fair play for every citizen of the State who wanted to live an honest life, then such a Vote would receive from me, and from everyone on this side of the House, our full support and be passed without any discussion whatever. We realise that this force is used for a distinct purpose. The main purpose for which it is used is to keep the Cumann na nGaedheal Party in existence. For that purpose they use different methods. One is bribery to the extent of showing patronage to those who support them, but to those who do not agree with them they are prepared to use violence and terrorism. If it is for that purpose that this House is being asked to vote a sum amounting to about £2,000,000—it amounts to that when all the items are taken into account—then I say that the House is being asked to give its assent to an impossible proposition. I say, too, that this country is being fooled to the extent that the Cumann na nGaedheal Party is using the police force in this country for the purpose of maintaining that Party in office through methods, as I have stated, of bribery and terrorism.

Mr. JASPER WOLFE

The principal argument that I have heard in the criticism in regard to this Vote is the suggestion that the members at present in the Gárda Síochána force are too numerous. Assuming for the moment that the force is larger than those of us with economic tendencies would wish, I desire for a moment that every party in this House, and every member of every party and group would ask himself this question; who is responsible for that? Who is responsible for the state of affairs that has existed between 1922 and 1928 that has made it necessary for this country, for its freedom and its safety, to have in the Free State to-day a larger number of Civic Guards than we would wish for if the choice lay with us? I think, so far as the occupants of the Government Benches are concerned, that they can say without fear of contradiction "We are not responsible for the condition of affairs which have prevailed in this country from 1922 to 1928 and that has made that force necessary as regards the numbers constituting it to-day." I think that my friends in the Labour Party and my colleagues in the Independent group can say the same.

Surely the Deputy is not going to hold me responsible for what Deputy Maguire said?

Mr. MOORE

On a point of order. Deputy Maguire made no such statement. He opened his speech by paying a tribute to the Gárda.

Mr. GOREY

I will quote his exact words. He said: "People were living in terror of a force such as the Civic Guard is." Will the Deputy contradict that?

Mr. MOORE

He was referring to individuals.

MINISTER for EDUCATION (Professor O'Sullivan)

Mr. CORRY

Mr. CORRY

No; with attempting to escape. The capture of this terrible individual by a force of seven men has cost the taxpayers £6,092. I am very anxious to make clear the distinction between the C.I.D. and the Gárda, but it is rather surprising when we hear about the confidence which the people have in the police force to find that one individual can be in a parish for two years without being captured, although seven men have been constantly after him. Now I come to the question of persecution. There is one young man in Cobh whose house has been raided about eighty times during the past four months. The police go up at seven o'clock in the morning and search his house for documents, but, finding none, they come back again at 10.30 a.m., and return again at dinner hour for another search for documents. I put it to any sensibly-minded Deputy, is there any individual who would be idiot enough to keep documents in his house after it had been raided in the morning, knowing that it would be raided again later on? That is a system of persecution which is being brought against certain individuals for the purpose of driving them out of the country. It is a system which the Minister should look into and put an end to. This constant raiding of houses by any force of men is unjust to any citizen. Deputy Gorey was good enough to allude to salaries, and to say that the farming community were the only people whose salaries were back to the pre-war rate. I seriously suggest that the farming community, who apparently are to be the beast of burden for everything in this country, cannot afford to pay over £3,000,000 for policing a piece of an island. If the Executive Council are going to continue that game, they will find that they will turn even Deputy Gorey's late party against them, and then it will be all up.

Mr. T. MURPHY

Deputy Gorey invited members of this part of the House to make a contribution to the debate. Our attitude to the Vote under discussion and the Gárdaí as a force has been clearly stated by Deputy Davin this evening. So far as I personally am concerned, I would like to avail of this opportunity to say that in my opinion the work of the Guards is done as well as it could be done under the circumstances. I had not the advantage of hearing many of the speeches this evening, but I gathered from those that I did hear that there was a suggestion that the wages of the Guards should be reduced. I think that would be undesirable, in view of the fact that members of that force suffered a reduction in wages not so long ago. I think Deputy Gorey was wrong in saying that the wages of a Guard is £3 10s. a week. I think it is £3 as a result of a reduction made some time ago.

Mr. FITZGERALD KENNEY

Yes.

Mr. T. MURPHY

Somebody referred to the action of the Guards in connection with elections. I would like to say that, so far as I know it, the attitude of the Guards at election times has been scrupulously impartial, and I never had an experience other than that of courtesy and kindness from them anywhere any time I had occasion to meet them. I have a recollection, however, of an experience not so pleasant when, on behalf of a candidate in 1922, I took part in the elections, and I remember that we had at that election a police force, and from the conversations I had with men alleged to be on police duty on that occasion, I learned that their particular duty was to vote for particular candidates. The people who were supposed to be police officers at that election told me that they had voted 27 or 28 times during the election. That is an experience which we should get rid of.

Mr. GOREY

I saw them at it, too.

Mr. T. MURPHY

There should be a force that would be strictly impartial and prepared to serve under any Government set up by the people in this country. A plea has been made for amalgamation or closing down of certain police stations. I can only give my own experience in that connection, and say that whenever the authorities signified their intention of closing certain stations in my constituency, I found that when the news of that intention got abroad I and other Deputies in the area were handed very extensively-signed petitions against the proposal. The Minister had his way, however, on nearly every occasion when stations were closed. There was an extensive local feeling against the closing of the stations on the ground that it would not be desirable. I must say that I have never experienced any display of bias on the part of the Guards, and I never saw any sign of terrorism attempted to be exercised over any section of the community. I think it only right that that should be stated.

Mr. DOLAN

In order to correct, perhaps, a wrong impression in the House about the position in Leitrim I think it well as a representative who has always received the votes of the majority of the people in that county at every election since 1918 that I should assure the House that there are law-abiding citizens in that county. I would remind Deputies also that Seán MacDermott was a native of County Leitrim and that the people there are very proud of that fact. Leitrim is ordinarily a law-abiding county and the majority of the people are glad that certain wrong-doers in our midst are afraid of the Civic Guard. Deputy Maguire has endeavoured to create an impression in this House that the people there are living in terror of the Guards and that the position there is that no law-abiding citizen has any respect for them. I think it is a tribute to the Guards that every person of any responsibility who stands for decent Government recognises that in the difficult circumstances under which the Guards were recruited and during the transition period over which they had to operate a wonderful transformation has taken place in that county. I daresay we would not like to go back on the history of the last few years, but we know that Leitrim being rather a backward county became a hiding ground for many people who went on the run from other counties. Leitrim being a hilly county was naturally a safe hiding place and there were portions of that county where trains could not pass safely and where it was not safe for banks to transfer money from one portion to another. There were a good many bank robberies.

Mr. LEMASS

And embezzlements.

Mr. DOLAN

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Will the Deputy quote the Standing Order about the three times?

Mr. FLINN

I understand that a Deputy can speak for ten minutes in Committee, and more than once. Is that not so?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I think the Deputy has got the wrong book. He has the first edition.

The PRESIDENT

It is out of date. I will intervene for one moment to say that we have spent something like sixty hours on the Estimates this year. The Estimates, with the Appropriation Bill, will require to be passed by the 1st December if we are to have money to carry on these services, and that is a consideration that Deputies ought to bear in mind, in view of the fact that something like forty more Estimates have got to be considered.

Mr. McENTEE

If it would convenience the Minister I am prepared to go on now. At the same time I would like to say, with all due respect to my friend Deputy Flinn, that we would not like the Minister to be a recurring decimal in more than two places. I move to report progress.

Progress ordered to be reported.

The Dáil went out of Committee.

Progress reported, the Committee to sit again to-morrow.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.28 p.m.

Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 1 Nov 1928