Deputy Ruttledge and other Deputies mentioned that on a former occasion I and other Deputies proposed an amendment that the Vote should be reduced. In one case we moved for a reduction of £400,000 and in another something like £126,000. We were twitted with not being prepared to follow up our arguments on that occasion. I would have expected that Deputy Ruttledge and his Party who claim that this Vote could and ought to be reduced, would at least have taken pains to put forward an amendment showing where reductions might be made. If the Deputy, when he went to the trouble of reading the previous debates, had examined the amendments put forward from the benches on which I sat on that occasion he would have noticed that our proposals embraced two aspects. The first aspect was that in respect of the pay, allowances and upkeep of the Gárdai. We maintained that certain economies could be effected in that direction. The other aspect was in regard to the numbers and strength of the Gárdai, and we maintained that the condition of the country was such that it was not necessary to maintain such a number of effective Gárdai. When putting forward those amendments we, at least, went to the trouble of getting facts and figures and attempting to substantiate the facts and standing over them. The amendment of ex-Deputy Wilson showed that a considerable amount of examination had been given to the Police Votes in this and other countries, and, speaking on behalf of the farmers, he put forward definite constructive suggestions for a reduction of the Vote. On that occasion Mr. Wilson was speaking on behalf of a Party of 15, a Party which had very small financial resources. Deputies from the benches opposite are speaking on behalf of a Party of 57. I presume that all the members of that Party are not front bench men and are not extremely busy. Therefore, I believe it would be possible for members of that Party, if they really believed that definite economies could be effected and definite cuts made in this Vote, to examine it in detail, and having done so to put the opinions and conclusions they had formed before the House. That would give the House as a whole an opportunity of considering the question whether or not such cuts or economics could be effected, and whether if any constructive proposals were submitted they could be employed. But the Party opposite has done nothing of the kind. Instead, they have uttered sweeping generalities, sometimes accompanied by semi-veiled charges, against the members of the Gárda Síochána. In that connection it is to be observed that attacks of that kind were very few. From almost every side of the House there was general appreciation of the good work done by the Guards, and I personally want to associate myself with the words of appreciation spoken in that connection.
I am convinced that, physically, we have the best police force in the world, and that, intellectually, mentally and morally, we have a police force equal to that in any other part of the world. That always has been my opinion, but at the same time I should like to say this: that we must not regard the police force as above criticism. I feel, and always have felt, that our police force, however good it is, and it is very good, has certain imperfections. As a new force, raised up, one might say, from the ground, on a foundation that, at the time, had no existing personnel as regards officers and in very large numbers, it was bound to have certain defects. That might be expected in such a force, taking into account the conditions under which it was raised and the conditions that existed in the country during the period that it was being recruited. I think, in view of all these circumstances, that we can heartily congratulate ourselves, and also congratulate the officers in charge on the wonderfully effective police force which they have produced. I believe that it is a force that will improve from day to day.
As to how reductions might be effected in the cost and strength of the force, we might, as I have already pointed out, have expected that members on the benches opposite would have put forward certain constructive proposals—proposals of the nature that we put forward and that we might expect them to put forward. I, personally, am deeply interested in this matter, but as, at the moment, I am engaged in dealing with the aspect of this question of reduction of expenditure, I must regard this particular matter as being sub judice. I am a member of an Economy Committee which is dealing with the question of economy in all departments of State. Doubtless at some period of our deliberations the Vote that is now under discussion will come up for consideration before us. I had hoped, but my hope has been in vain, that I would have got in the course of this debate some indication of lines to work along in effecting economies. I regard any indications of help given in that direction in the course of this debate as being absolutely negligible.
On the occasion that I have referred to the Party to which I then belonged brought forward a motion the effect of which was that the strength of the Gárda Síochána force should be reduced, and the cost for its maintenance, etc, by the sum of £400,000. When that motion was moved, we pointed out that the sum indicated had not been arrived at after any close examination of the figures that went to make up the total amount of the Vote, but that we put forward a figure mainly in the nature of a token Vote, arrived at in a rough and haphazard manner so as to give us an opportunity of stating our views as well as an opportunity to the then Minister for Justice of stating his views on the question of the permanent maintenance of the Gárda Síochána force at its high level and strength. On that occasion I put forward certain opinions which I held then, and still hold to a very considerable extent. The statement made at the time by the then Minister for Justice led us to modify our views to the extent that we did not put our motion to a division. Apart from that fact, later happenings which followed almost immediately after the discussion of our motion led me to modify my views to a certain extent and to realise that, although it may not be advisable to retain a permanent police force at its present numbers in this country, the conditions then existing were such that I could not stand up and recommend a reduction in the strength of the force. Within a few weeks of the discussion on that motion the sad duty was cast upon me of forming one of the party that walked after the funerals of two members of the Gárda Síochána. One of them was shot in my own county at a place called Hollyfort. The other Guard was shot in another county. I then began to reconsider my position. I felt that I could not honestly put my hand on my heart and say "The conditions in this country are such that we can, at the present time, reduce the strength of the force," and I began to have my doubts about the matter. I want to say that the slayers of those two Guards have never been apprehended.
At a later date in the following year I had again to give very serious thought to the motion which we then put forward as to whether we would be justified in asking to have the strength of the force reduced. I had the sad and unhappy duty cast upon me of following the funeral cortege of the very Minister for Justice who had defended the Vote for this force in the Dáil on the occasion that our motion was discussed, the Minister who argued for the retention of the force at its old level. Having taken part in that sad cortege, I again felt that I could not put my hand on my heart and say that I honestly believed that the conditions then existing in this country were such that we could at once proceed to reduce the strength of our police force. Again, I may point out that the perpetrators of that deed are still at large. I still believe, however, that the strength of the police force that we have in this country is too large for the requirements of the country. Taking into account the economic conditions of the country as they exist to-day, as has been pointed out by Deputy Kent and others, I believe that the burden which the maintenance of this force casts upon the main taxpayers of the country, who are the farmers, is too much. We must, however, take into account whether the conditions that exist at present, and are likely to exist in the future, are such that the strength of the force can be reduced. Personally, I have doubts as to whether we would be justified in saying that the conditions that at present exist are normal and are such that the strength of the force can be reduced. I believe that we have not yet developed a sense of civic responsibility, of the necessity for co-operating with the guardians of law and order, or a sense of personal responsibility in the maintenance of law and order such as would enable us to guarantee that we can carry on with a smaller police force than we have at present.
If the Deputies on the opposite benches are really anxious, and I believe they are, to reduce the force, because apart from any question of political propaganda they must know as everybody in touch with the conditions in the country knows, that a reduction in the strength of the police force for economic reasons is essential, then they should try and create an atmosphere and a sense of civic spirit which would make the ordinary man realise that the police force is not the force of a Party but the force of the Government and of the country, and that it is the duty of every law-abiding citizen to offer help to the police when his assistance is required. When that day has arrived, when the sense of civic responsibility has grown to such an extent that the people will freely and willingly give their aid to the police, then the question of a reduction in the strength of the police force might be considered, but it would be too soon to consider it before that. I am of opinion that it would be unwise, both in the interests of economy and of the future social and political welfare of the country, that the force should be stereotyped at its present numbers. I think the day will and must come when we can bring the policing of this country and the observance of law and order in line with that which exists in other countries.
It appears to me that two conflicting points of view exist on this subject. We should take a definite side in regard to these views. One view is that the police force should be maintained at its present strength, and that if duties are not there for the police to perform then duties must be provided for them. Measures passed by this Dáil have added to the duties cast on the police, which increased the necessity for the maintenance of the present strength of that force. Extra duties have arisen out of the development in transport conditions in the way of regulation of traffic. Then new Acts, such as the School Attendance Act, have the effect of imposing additional duties upon the police. As I have said, there is that point of view, that because of these extra duties cast on the police they must be maintained at their present strength. On the other hand, it is said that instead of throwing on the shoulders of the police new duties from time to time we should avoid doing anything of the kind, and that as conditions improve the numbers of the police force should be reduced to a number commensurate with the capacity of the country to maintain. I hold that view. I hold that we should not stereotype and make permanent the existing strength of the force. I think both from the point of view of economy, and the point of view of the political and social welfare of the country, it would be well that people should learn there is a certain responsibility cast on them as citizens for the observance of the law and the maintenance of order, and that the man who gives information to the police now cannot be regarded, as he too often was in the past, as an informer and a renegade to his own people.
Certain criticisms were put forward from the opposite benches with regard to the political activities of the Gárda Síochána. I gathered that those criticisms generally did not apply to the uniformed forces, though certain criticisms were made of the uniformed force tending to associate them with political activities. I do not think that was a widespread opinion, but it was definitely put forward from the opposite benches that members of the non-uniformed force were acting as political agents. It seems to me that is a simple matter. It depends upon the question of what is political. If the activities of the Guards are confined to carrying out their normal duties I cannot see how their use in that connection could be regarded as taking part in political activities. If political activities mean the building up of secret organisations for the purpose of using force and attaining ends which certain parties wished to attain, certainly it is the duty of the C.I.D., or of the uniformed force, to take all the steps they can to get information regarding such activities. It was suggested that owing to activities of members of the C.I.D. freedom of speech was not allowed at the elections. I happened to be a candidate for election on many occasions. I was first a candidate on behalf of the Farmers' Party, and later a candidate of that Party when it had entered into alliance with the existing Government Party. When I was a Farmers' candidate pure and simple I never had the slightest difficulty in making myself heard.