Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Nov 1928

Vol. 27 No. 1

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE No. 7—OLD AGE PENSIONS.

Mr. BLYTHE

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £798,000 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1929, chun íoc Pinseana Sean-Aoise fé Achtanna na bPinsean Sean-Aoise, 1908 go 1924, chun Costaisi Riaracháin áirithe a bhaineann leo san, agus chun Pinseana fén Blind Persons Act, 1924.

That a sum not exceeding £798,000 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for the payment of Old Age Pensions under the Old Age Pensions Acts, 1908 to 1924, for certain Administrative Expenses in connection therewith, and for Pensions under the Blind Persons Act, 1924.

The only thing I need say in connection with this matter is that the decrease shown in the Estimate as compared with last year is largely due to the fact that there will be one less pay day—one less Friday in this year— than there was last year which had 53. It will be necessary later on in the year to bring in a Supplementary Estimate approximately for £150,000 for the purpose of meeting the additional charges which will fall to be paid because of the Act of the present year.

Mr. T. SHEEHY (Cork)

I should like to ask the Minister when the shilling cut will be available for those who have not already enjoyed it owing to the action of the Minister on the last occasion. It has come to about two-thirds of the old age pensioners but there is still a substantial number of old age pensioners who have not got it and to whom the additional shilling would be of the utmost advantage in connection with their support.

Mr. CLERY

There is, I note, on the whole a general improvement in the administration of the old age pension scheme. I think, however, the Department should see that there are weaknesses in the Old Age Pensions Act that ought to be modified to some extent. It is hard in some cases for the claimants to prove their claims owing to the system as it exists to-day. The Pensions Committee, seeing they are to a great extent administering the Act, should be taken more into the confidence of the Department. In many cases where claimants come before the Committee and after their claims have been considered and every aspect of the case has been gone into and a certain pension recommended the pensions officers., who perhaps get their instructions from the Department, appeal against the decision of the Local Pensions Committee. The position really is that the pensions officers very often appeal against the recommendations made by the Local Committee although they are very much less well informed of the facts than the Committee which has made the recommendation. I think, therefore, that the Committees since they are more or less facilitating the carrying out of the old age pensions scheme should be taken more into the confidence of the Department and that when they strongly recommend that certain pensions should be given more heed should be given to their recommendations by the Department.

I know there are many cases where the pensions officers are too rigidly opposing the recommendations made by the Committees, and in that way there have been great hardships often done to the claimants in regard to appeal cases. Those administering the old age pension scheme come a good deal more in touch with the poorer classes of the people than practically those of any other Department of the State. I think a very sympathetic attitude should be adopted by the pension officers. Probably they are not allowed by the Department to take up such an attitude, since it is the instructions of the Department, I understand, that they are to seek out in every possible manner any little flaw whatsoever whereby the claim might be turned down. If that is not the Department's view, it is very often the view taken by the pension officers. I know they have a very hard and difficult task to perform. Many people put up bogus claims, but on the whole I think the attitude of the officers is unduly harsh in dealing with claimants generally.

I know of cases brought before the Department, and I know they are always very generous in dealing with them on their merits. Still I think there is something wanting in the system. I am aware, and I make the point here, that throughout the country there are many people in receipt of old age pensions not entitled to the amount they are getting. I put that point very plainly, and I feel it is a fact, but against that there are large numbers of people getting no pensions or getting much less allowance than they should get. The Department's attitude seems to be this. They feel there are many people getting allowances they are not entitled to, and because they cannot get at them they are too stringent altogether trying to prevent other people getting allowances to which they are entitled. I think a general overhauling of the whole system would do no harm.

With regard to clerks of the Pensions Committees, I think the Department has no say at all in the matter. I think the Committee has power to employ a pensions clerk, no matter who he may be, and he may carry on at the pleasure of the Committee, the Minister for Local Government having no say whatever in his appointment. I am not pleading for appointments commissioners in this case, but I think that there should be at least some supervision. I think there is none. In fact, I know a case — I brought it before the authority concerned — where a county councillor who, by virtue of being a member of the council, is a member of the Committee, is acting as the paid secretary of the Committee. I think that that is not at all a proper thing, and I think if the Minister has no power to prevent a county councillor from acting as secretary and drawing a salary from the county council, of which he is a member, for acting as clerk of the Committee, some change should be made in the Act which would empower the Minister to take action in such a case. I think that the provisions with regard to the appointment of pensions clerks came in with the old age pensions scheme years and years ago. It was a new scheme at the time, and it has not been changed to any extent since. The Minister should look into that point and should be empowered to see that people are not appointed as clerks who should not be.

Another matter which would need attention is the blind pensions scheme. The fact that the blind pensions scheme was entirely inadequate was brought before the House some time ago. No person is entitled to draw a blind pension until he reaches the age of fifty years. There are many people throughout the country, unfortunately, who are imbeciles, and who are blind and unable to work, but they will not be allowed blind pensions until they come to the age of fifty years. I think the Department should give that matter serious consideration with a view to changing the Act to some extent, so that people who cannot earn their livelihood and who are very badly catered for, except by relief out of the public funds, should be enabled to get blind pensions at any age.

I would like to know what has become of the recommendations that were made by the committee that was set up some years ago to inquire into the working of the old age pensions scheme. Certain recommendations were made dealing with the work and powers of local pensions committees and dealing with the work, powers and salaries of pensions clerks. These recommendations were put before the Government some time ago. I read them some time ago — I have not them at hand at the moment — and I found that the recommendations were very good. I think that the Government, having set up a committee to inquire into the working of this scheme, should not put their recommendations aside without giving them very careful consideration. I should like the Minister to tell us what it is proposed to do with those recommendations.

Mr. SHAW

I recognise that for some time past there has been a very great improvement in the administration of the Old Age Pensions Act, but there are a few matters in connection with which I think there could be considerable improvement. One of the greatest difficulties with which I have to contend at present is the difficulty which applicants for pensions have when proving their ages and in putting before the pensions authorities in Dublin proofs to show that they have arrived at the age of seventy. When they fail to obtain birth certificates the procedure is, I understand, that they have to make an affidavit before two Peace Commissioners. In the counties I represent, the people seem to be very unfortunate in not being able to obtain birth certificates, but in numerous cases they are unable to do so. The result is that the onus is put on the claimant of endeavouring to get two old people whom he knew in his youth to swear an affidavit to prove that he is over the age. I have had untold trouble in connection with innumerable cases, and I am sorry to say that a great many of them have certainly been, to my mind, unduly delayed. I believe that they are sympathetically considered, but at the same time these old people have sometimes to go twenty, thirty, and forty miles to get this proof, and it is undoubtedly a very considerable difficulty.

The only other matter which I wish to bring forward in the nature of a very serious grievance is this: that where persons who were in receipt of British war pensions in respect of relatives who were killed, and who gave their ages when they were claiming these pensions, have these pensions automatically reduced, while at the same time they have not been able to obtain their old age pensions in the Free State. I have one particular case in mind, which will illustrate thousands of cases of the same kind—the case of Mrs. Willis, of Harbour Street, Mullingar. She was in receipt of a British war pension of 11/- a week for a son of hers who was killed in the war. She gave her age on filling in the documents for the war pensions people. Six months ago she arrived at the age of seventy, and her pension was automatically reduced to 6/- a week. She has gone before the Peace Commissioners, and she had got several people of seventy in the locality where she was to testify, but to-day she is further away from getting the old age pension than she was when the 5/- a week was taken from her. That is a matter that I think the Minister for Finance ought to take up with the British Finance authorities. They have automatically reduced her 5/- a week; she is not receiving it from the Free State, and they are benefiting to that extent. That is affecting thousands of other people in the Free State who have received and are entitled to British war pensions. I know that at present there is an investigation with regard to war pensioners and the grievances of war pensioners, and this is a matter we should take up. It is really very important, because it is not fair that the British War Pensions people should be saving 5/- a week at the expense of the woman I have mentioned, while at the same time, because she is not able to prove her age, she cannot obtain a pension here. I put that case before the Minister, and I hope that the matter will be investigated, because it affects a very large number of people in this country.

Mr. DAVIN

I want to draw the Minister's attention to a type of case which, in my opinion, is the cause of unnecessary hardship amongst a rather limited number of pensioners. I refer to the case of persons in receipt of pensions who find it necessary to enter county homes. When a person who is in receipt of an old age pension goes to the county home payment of the pension ceases. When such an individual leaves the county home he cannot get the pension allowance again without making a fresh application. Very few cases of that kind have come under my notice, but I have been assured by the officials responsible for dealing with pension applications that it is considered necessary that the law should be amended so that pensioners of that type would be allowed automatically to receive their pensions without going through the formula of making fresh applications. If it is considered necessary or advisable to amend the law to enable people of that kind automatically to receive the pensions which they were in receipt of before going to the county homes, I suggest to the Minister that the necessary amending Bill should be introduced without further delay.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

resumed the Chair.

Mr. DAVIN

I would like to refer briefly to another matter. It appears to me to be the procedure of the local pensions officer automatically to oppose all pension applications, or to make a case against them. Dealing further with that aspect it appears to me that the pensions officer in a great many cases—I do not say in all cases— goes out of his way to make a case against the pension application, especially on the question of maintenance allowance. When an application is made for a pension the local pensions officer is asked to report on the circumstances of the applicant. In doing so he takes into account the valuation of the holding on which the applicant lives, the number of hens, ducks, and drakes that the owner possesses, and he appears to fix the standard income on the average number of eggs sold during the year by the owner of the home in which the pensioner resides. I have been trying to get figures in some cases regarding the income, or the so-called income of the owner of the house in which the applicant resides and I find it impossible to get detailed figures to justify the pensions officer opposing the application. The whole question depends on what is reasonable maintenance allowance for the pensioner in the place where he resides. There appears to be a great difference of opinion between the view held by the local pensions committee and the pensions officer in matters of this kind. I do not know if any new instructions could be issued to pensions officers so that they will only put up cases against applications where they have evidence to support their cases.

I rose to bring under the notice of the Minister particularly the first point I mentioned in regard to individuals who go into county homes, who are in receipt of the pension, and which is stopped while they are there. It is necessary, I understand, under the existing law for them to make a fresh application before payment of the pension is renewed. I suggest that whatever slight amendment is necessary to remove that obstacle should be made without further delay. I think it is an unnecessary restriction, and that where a person is in receipt of a pension before going into a county home that person should automatically receive the pension on leaving that institution.

PROINNSIAS O FATHAIGH

Chuala mé gearán go bhfuil an iomad comhachta ag na hoifigigh áitiúla i gCondae na Gaillimhe. Nílim ar aon intinn leis sin. Tá comhacht ag na hoifigigh seo cur i gcoinne an phinsin ach níl comhacht acu stád do chur leis. Tá fhios agam go bhfuil daoine ag éileamh an phinsin agus nach ceart é do thabhairt dóibh. Ach mar sin féin, is léir dom go gcuireann na hoifigigh rodhian i gcoinne iarrthóirí fán pinsean in áiteacha áirithe. Táim ag smaoitiú ar dhuine amháin ach níor mhaith liom a ainm a luadh anso. Ach caithfidh mé admháil go bhfuil cothrom na féinne le fáil ag na sean-daoine nuair a chuireann siad a gcúiseanna os cóir lucht an Chustuim, má tá cúis mhaith acu. Is dócha go bhfuil rialacha príomháideacha curtha amach ó áit éigin go dtí na hoifigigh áitiúla agus is dócha gurab iad na rialacha seo is bun leis an déine in a bhfuil siad ag cur i gcoinne an phinsin in áiteacha. Ach níl siad uilig mar sin.

Tá rud eile ann—níl fhios agam an mbainnean sé leis an sgeal so—agus isé sin ná luach na dtithe. B'fhéidir go bhfuil tigh nua ann agus nach bhfuil ach £1 i gceist maidir leis an phinsean ach mar gheall ar an luach á cuirtear ar an dtigh ní féidir an pinsean do thabhairt do'n seanduine. Ní dó liom gur ceart sin.

Rud eile—nuair a chuireann duine iarrtas isteach fán phinsean agus nuair a gheibh sé an pinsean i ndeire na dála, an bhfuil aon riail ann an pinsean d'íoc ón chéad lá a cuireadh isteach an t-éileamh? Muna bhfuil riail mar sin ann, ba chóir riail do cheapa.

Nuair a théidheann duine ag a bhfuil an pinsean isteach san otharlainn chondae, no áit mar sin, is dó liom go mba cheart an pinsean d'íoc le lucht na hotharlainne fhaid agus tá sé annsin agus é do thabhairt arís dó go díreach nuair a thagann sé amach.

Maidir le pinseanna na nDáll, thug an tAire geall dúinn go mbeadh Bille os cóir na Dála i gcoinn tamaill chun an cheist sin do shocrú. B'fhéidir go mbeadh an tAire in ánn eolas do thabhairt dúinn cathain a bheidh an Bille sin os ar gcóir.

Mr. P. HOGAN (Clare)

I have very little to say on this service except to try to find out if the Minister would give any indication as to what is the standard of assessment by which income is made out. I asked that question before on several occasions, but so far I have not been told. We know from experience of pensions committees that certain values are placed on certain things which are not the value of these things when calculating income for old age pension purposes. There is a very illuminating light thrown on this matter when we consider that if an applicant for an old age pension has a few pounds in the bank he is charged at the rate of 10 per cent. on that money. I wonder if the Minister for Finance would tell us where 10 per cent. could be got on any money now. Would he be prepared to issue a National Loan and offer 10 per cent.? If he did I am sure it would be over-subscribed before long.

In the matter of blind pensions, I would like to ask if the Minister would consider having these claims considered more quickly and much earlier. In my constituency I know cases waiting for six or eight months before they were investigated. Surely that is a hardship, because these people have to depend upon somebody to take care of them, to lead them about, and to give them assistance. To leave cases of that kind for eight or ten months is a state of affairs that should be remedied. Surely some means could be devised by which the Minister could arrange that medical inspection would take place at an early date after the application for a pension was made. That is a matter to which I suggest the Minister should give serious consideration. I put a question about it to-day, but I do not think it was taken seriously. I think it should be considered seriously. I know several people who have applied for old age pensions, whose claims have been turned down because they could not prove their age. In the first place they cannot find certificates. That is a fairly common occurrence. Then they cannot collate their age or something in their memory with some incident that can be traced. They cannot convince the Minister that they are the age. Do these people, in the official mind, ever become seventy, or how are they going to prove that they are seventy? They linger on, and make fresh applications, go before the committee, their pension is granted, an appeal comes up the pension is rejected, and the thing goes on eternally.

There is no means of deciding. I think there ought to be some means really by which these people would be allowed to receive a pension on the evidence of certain responsible people who could subscribe to the belief that they were seventy years of age. I find it is impossible for these people to find the necessary data to convince the Minister. I have also a case or two where people who were American citizens came home and cannot get their pensions because they have not been long enough in the country. I know of a case where a man is in very necessitous circumstances. I do not believe Finance and the Local Government Department, especially the latter, are anxious to be hard on any particular individual who is making a claim, but there is legislation, and this poor man cannot get a pension. He is in necessitous circumstances and is entitled to the pension in common fairness and justice. The legislation was passed years ago. Some alteration in it should, I suggest, be made. I would ask the Minister to look into these matters, particularly the matter of age, the amount, and the basis of assessment, and see whether some means cannot be arrived at by which some of the hardship may be alleviated or removed entirely.

Mr. MAGUIRE

There is one aspect regarding old age pensions that needs special attention, that is, the calculation of the means of the applicants— of small land holders. It is easily understood that the valuation, say, of a cow will vary in different parts of the country from three pounds to as much as twenty pounds a year. Still we find that in the poor parts of the country, at least it is my experience, that the valuation put on a cow, in many instances, is in excess a good deal of what the value is. Then again, the pension officer may take the valuation of half an acre of oats, turnips, or other crop. These crops cannot be calculated at a money value inasmuch as the farmer uses a crop for the purpose of feeding cows or cattle, which is included by the pensions officer and is necessary for their very sustenance on the farm. In calculating the value of crops of this sort used for the purpose of keeping cattle in existence, you are taxing twice the same commodities, to the disadvantage of the applicant. If more consideration were given to the locality and as to the actual value of cows, which are the main source of revenue, I am sure good results would accrue, as far as applicants are concerned. I am satisfied that the actual amount on which these things are assessed are too high.

Again one very important factor which would go a long way towards doing justice to all concerned would be if the pension officer took more into account sub-committees dealing with the cases. These sub-committees are made up of people interested, in the first instance, in saving themselves as tax payers and cutting expenditure down within reasonable limits, at the same time with a keen knowledge of what the actual condition of all its applicants is. If the pension officer took into account, and put it before him when he and the Committee are discussing the various cases, how he has calculated the means of each applicant, what means he has discovered, and any other information he has on his mind that may not be in the possession of the Committee, you would find that very fair amounts would be arrived at as a fair calculation for all concerned. As it is, the pension officer refuses to give any information at all to the sub-committee as to how he has arrived at the amount. The sub-committee, seeing there is such a wide discrepancy between what they estimated as the applicants' means and what the pensions officer estimated, feel that their opinion does not count, and they go to the opposite extreme and grant, without full consideration, the fullest possible award. The result of that is injurious from an equitable point of view in arriving at what would be a fair pension.

I have had a great deal of experience with the local government officials here, and in the matter of appeals I found them very expeditious and anxious to do their best within the limits of the law for the applicants. At the same time they are not as favourably placed as the pension officer would be if he were instructed to take his case and consult with the committee when these applications are before it.

Mr. CONNOLLY

Since the last occasion when the Old Age Pension Act was before the House we find universal satisfaction through the country. I do not think the country has suffered much loss by the contribution of one shilling extra to old age pensions. There is one thing which has inflicted great hardship on a number of old people, and that is the difficulty of getting sufficient evidence to prove their age. I know in many cases they look the age, and even more, but are not able to find sufficient evidence to prove it to the pensions officer. I do not know whether it would be proper for me to speak with regard to reducing the age to, say, sixty-five, or to have some system introduced into the old age pensions papers such as a confidential report from the Old Age Pensions Committee. In our county the committees in general are conscientious in granting pensions to old people. We find in most cases that their findings have been accepted by the Local Government Board. Having regard to the conscientious manner in which the sub-committee can deal with the matter, there might be some sort of form introduced upon which they could make a confidential report and say: "We are of opinion that the applicant in this case is to the best of our knowledge and belief, a certain age," seventy years or so, and allow that person to benefit by it. As to reducing the age to sixty-five——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

That is a different question.

Mr. CONNOLLY

Very well. There are people of 65 years of age——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The Deputy cannot discuss that matter as it requires amendment of the law.

Mr. CONNOLLY

There are people of that age in dire circumstances, and their means of livelihood is much less in many cases than that of people who can prove that they are of the necessary age. The money paid in old age pensions is not entirely lost to the State, as the contributions of nine or ten shillings a week very often come back in the shape of revenue. These people cannot indulge in luxuries. They can only buy the merest necessities of life. A more generous outlook should be taken by pensions officers when cases come up for review. The best means of doing that would, in my opinion, be to have a closer co-operation between the committees and the Department which administers the fund. There should be joint responsibility. If the onus was placed upon the sub-committees in various districts, and if they were put upon their honour to report faithfully they would do so. In that way a good deal of distress would be relieved and people who gave real human service to the State would be put in a fairly independent position. They are entitled, after all, to be in that position. In many districts, where the land is poor and where the means of getting money by selling the produce of the land is scanty, the people have no other prospects beyond the old age pension. The pensions granted in my area are generally very small, and vary from three shillings to six shillings a week. They seldom reach the maximum amount. That shows that the sub-committees are very conscientious in the matter of dispensing public funds. Special regard should be paid to cases in which people reach the age or a little over it. People of 70 or 72 years of age very often have no means of finding out what their age is. I trust that that fact will be borne in mind, and that the Minister will direct the attention of inspectors to it. It will relieve great distress, and the money will not be lost to the country.

Mr. T. MURPHY

It is rather pleasant for some of us who have somewhat severely criticised the administration in regard to old age pensions for the last four or five years to be able to say that the attitude now adopted by those administering the Act is a good deal less rigid than it used to be. I would endorse what has been said about the officials of the Department concerned. I have had experience of the very sympathetic way that cases have been dealt with by them, and I would like if the Minister would endeavour to have the same attitude adopted by the pension officers who have to deal with the claims. Deputy Davin, I think, stated that the local officers usually adopt the attitude of being hostile to claims and take up the position of viewing each claim with suspicion until it is formally established. In my opinion the attitude of officers should be a great deal different, and they ought to be considerably more helpful to claimants than they are. Their whole attitude, so far as a good many of them are concerned, seems to be purely automatic, and they seem to confine themselves to dissenting from any recommendations made by the pensions committees in connection with claims. The appeals appear to be entered automatically.

There are some other matters that require attention. The question of age is frequently a source of trouble to applicants and, when appeals are entered and questions of age are involved, applicants are often in a difficulty about getting the proper kind of evidence to satisfy the Department. Those of us who have experience of this kind of work would, perhaps, be able to help applicants, but generally they are not able to understand the type of evidence that would be acceptable to the Department. Claims are consequently rejected, and the whole machinery of lodging fresh claims and the same routine of going before the Committee have to be gone over again. Some arrangement should be made whereby, if applicants are in a position to furnish additional information, the claims could be decided by the Department on that additional information rather than having applicants to go through the whole routine again, thus involving considerable delay and loss of a certain amount of pension. A fair case could also be made for removing disqualification in the case of people who enter county homes. Most of those who go into county homes are people who are destitute and who have nothing whatever, not a penny, to exist on. When they leave the county home they often have to wait for three or four weeks for a meeting of the local committee. That is a matter of great hardship. If it is possible to remove that hardship it should be removed.

As I say, pension officers should be more helpful to applicants. A great many people who make claims, which afterwards become the subject of appeal, have not the slightest idea how to establish their cases when they get appeal notices. The officers should adopt a more helpful and sympathetic attitude to claimants of that type and should assist them in putting their cases properly before the authorities. The few matters which I have mentioned appear to be the only criticisms which I have to offer, but I wish to express the hope that the legislation which the Minister has promised in regard to blind pensions may be expedited. A good many causes of complaints have been removed, but others still remain, and I hope that they, too, will be removed so as to make the system better than it is.

Mr. BRISCOE

There is only one item on which I would lay stress, and that is in connection with the onus put on applicants to prove their age. I have had some considerable intercourse with the Department responsible and I must bear out what Deputy Murphy has said in regard to the officials, as those with whom I came into contact were considerate and sympathetic, but in some cases they were bound by regulations which they found it impossible to overcome.

I had one case of an old woman who applied for a pension in the usual way. Her case was turned down on the grounds, as stated, that she had not sufficient proof of her age. I went into the matter and found that she was born in the Rotunda Hospital. In the records of the hospital it was stated that a Mrs. So and So had given birth to a daughter. The child's name was not entered in the hospital register, and very considerable trouble arose as to whether the applicant in this case was the particular person born on a particular date in the hospital. After a time, by accident, I came across the idea of finding out if this woman had any other sisters. I discovered she was an only daughter, and after a time the Department accepted that as sufficient proof of her age. She subsequently got her pension and the back money. I am not making the claim that there is anything due. During the time, however, that the claim was under consideration, and before it was granted, she was in a very poor state of health. It was a great hardship on her to have to wait from week to week until this technical difficulty was got over.

There are several cases in which it is impossible to produce baptismal certificates. It frequently happens that pages are missing from parish records. In cases of that kind I would suggest to the Minister that he should take the recommendation of the local pensions committee in regard to a person's claim and accept that as final one way or the other. I suppose it will be said that I am rather fortunate, but in any transactions that I have had with the Old Age Pension Department where genuine claims were made satisfaction was given. There is always difficulty, of course, in proving the date of birth, in the sense of being able to produce a birth or baptismal certificate. I hope that the Minister will try to bring in some regulation which will be a help to the officials of his Department in cases such as I have mentioned.

Mr. COLOHAN

I desire to support what Deputy Hogan said in asking the Minister to give consideration to an amendment of the principal Act in the case of returned nationals from America. One case was recently brought to my notice. It was that of an old woman who, when she was out in America, sent money home regularly to help an infirm brother and sister. When she had saved some money in America she came home and spent her savings on the support of her infirm brother and sister. Now, that woman herself is deaf and blind. She is in a destitute condition, and is ruled out from getting the old age pension herself on the grounds that she lived outside of this country for a period of more than twelve years. I think that is very hard. We must look at her case in this light, that when she was in health and vigour herself she did her part in sending home means from America for the support of an infirm brother and sister. In that way, she did her part in helping the State. Now, because all her money is gone she is left destitute by the State. Her case is a very sad one, and something should be done to meet it and others of the same kind. It is very hard indeed that people like her should be ruled out from getting the old age pension under the residential section in the Act. That section should not be rigidly adhered to in cases of that kind.

I have nothing but the best to say of the officials in the old age pension branch. When I went to them with cases from my constituency the claims I made were considered with courtesy and care. In fact, that is no new thing with me. I found that out years ago. I do not believe that I ever said anything against them here in recent years as to the authorisation of pensions. There were some cases that I fought very strongly with the Department. In some of those cases, I found out afterwards that the means of the people involved were more than double that laid down in the Act, and that the information supplied to me was altogether wrong. I always found, when I put up a fair case, that the officials met me in a courteous way, and were always willing to do what they could to help the applicants. On the question of returned nationals, I hope that the Minister for Finance will give that his earnest consideration. It is very hard on these people who, while out of the country sent their hard earned savings home for the support of relatives, that they should be deprived of the pension in their old age, and especially when they are in great need of it, simply on the grounds that they were out of the country for a certain period of years. If the Minister does something to remedy that situation I think he will have the support of Deputies in all parts of the House.

Mr. MULLINS

I desire to support the motion before the House. This is one of the few Votes that I would like to see increased. The one criticism that I have to offer is under Sub-head B — Expenses of Pension Committees, £7,500. In the present condition of things, and under the present powers conferred on local pensions committees, I think that a considerable amount of money could be saved if we were honest in abolishing them and allowed the pension officers to have full and complete dictatorial power. From the experience that I have had of local pensions committees, I am forced to believe, as a Deputy said here some time ago, that they are only registering machines for the local pension officers' decisions. They have really no power of granting pensions. I sympathise with the complaints made by several Deputies as to the want of co-operation between the local pensions officers and committees. It seems to be the procedure on the part of the local pensions officers, immediately a claim is passed by the local pensions committee, to dissent and object. I have found, in a few cases, a want of sympathy and a lack of understanding on the part of the pensions officer.

In cases of appeal, I think, as Deputy Clery has said, that there is a want in the Act. That want is either to give the local pensions committees increased powers, to trust to their judgments and their sense of citizenship to see that the powers given are not abused, or else abolish them and be honest, and let the pension officer be the dictator. Deputy Shaw raised a point and suggested that it should be taken up with the British Government. That reminds me that there is a little item in the Minister's regulations which should be taken up with the Government here with regard to British war pensions. In the constituency from which I come there are several towns. This matter vitally affects a number of old people in them. In the town I come from, the battle of Jutland in 1916 took its toll of the people in the place. Several of the old people were in receipt of British war pensions for the loss of their sons. Because these people were getting 10/- a week the Free State Government refused to grant them the old age pension on reaching the statutory age. I think that is not only unfair but very mean. I do not see why, when a person attains the age of seventy, consideration should be given to money which comes from a foreign Government, and which is not paid out of the pockets of the Irish taxpayers, in recognition of services rendered to that Government by the sons of the applicants concerned. I brought a case in this connection a short time ago before the Department, and it was turned down. I should like the Minister to give us some indication of Governmental policy regarding cases of the nature I have mentioned. I do not see why such people should be debarred from receiving the old age pension because they are in receipt of moneys which are not paid by the taxpayers of Saorstát Eireann.

On the question of harshness, I am sorry to say I cannot agree with several of the Deputies who have spoken. As to the grounds on which means are assessed, I have had a considerable number of cases within the last six months, and I found that in each case there has been considerable cause for complaint on this question of means. I would like some directions would be given to the pensions officer by the responsible authority in Dublin to have a little bit of human understanding and tact when dealing with these cases. These people cannot hit back themselves. They cannot fight their own battles and have to rely on somebody else to do it for them. More often than not the person on whom they depend is not in a position to deal with the real facts, and the result is that these people are thereby injured.

Mr. CAREY

I wish to say a few words on the question of proof of age, which is a matter of great importance. I have from time to time come across cases in East Cork where it is utterly impossible to get baptismal certificates. We have got people who know the applicants for pensions to make affidavits, but in many cases these affidavits are of no avail. In some cases people who have been drawing the old age pension have made affidavits concerning other people, and no notice has been taken of them by the pensions officer. I think that when people make an affidavit that they have known an applicant for a pension a certain number of years and had gone to school with the applicant it is unfair that notice should not be taken of that affidavit. In certain cases names on school roll books would not be taken as proof of age. If there is any little doubt at all the benefit of it should be given to the applicant. I ask the Minister to try and see his way to deal as leniently as possible with these poor old people.

Mr. S. JORDAN

I have very little to say on this Vote, as practically every point of importance has been already dealt with. When the question of means crops up it is the custom of the Department to attribute means to certain applicants for pensions who have safeguarded their interests by having an agreement with a son or daughter. as the case may be, when getting married. It is the custom down the country to have a marriage agreement People may not believe that, but it is a fact. It is not all a matter of love affairs in the country. People protect their own interests, and the father and mother do not relinquish their rights. There is generally a settlement whereby they get a room in the house and are clothed and fed, and simply because of that agreement the old age pensions officer puts it against them as means. If this agreement were not made probably those sons or daughters might tell their fathers or mothers after a few years that they were not wanted in the house, and then these old people would find themselves inmates of a county home, and that would cost the rates a certain amount of money every year. The rates are saved by that agreement to which I have referred, but because of the agreement the Government refuses to give to these people the pension to which they are entitled. I think that is a point the Minister ought to consider. This marriage settlement ought not to be brought up against these old people who are protecting their own interests by living on in their own homes until it pleases God to call them.

As regards proof of age, there are thousands of cases where people cannot produce baptismal certificates. In these cases the custom is to swear affidavits and send them up. Incidentally I might mention, pension or no pension, the affidavits are never returned. A lot depends on the particular man who drafts the affidavit. I have heard it stated on reliable authority that the affidavits in many cases are not worth the paper on which they are written, because they are not properly worded. Some person in a district thinks he is able to draft an affidavit, and he puts into it the words "I believe the person is such and such an age." When the affidavit goes to the Department the technical point is raised that the words "I believe" are not sufficient. To get over that difficulty I would make the recommendation for the Minister's consideration that the Department would draft a form of affidavit which would be acceptable, that the pensions officers should get a supply of them, and in cases where a person makes an application for a pension and is refused on the grounds of age the pensions officer should supply the affidavit drafted by the Department to the old people, who would then know that in swearing an affidavit they were swearing a properly-worded one. Some people might say that these old people would swear anything. I do not think that is true. I believe that when swearing an affidavit they do so to the best of their ability, and they swear what they believe to be facts. I ask the Minister to take that suggestion into consideration. If he thinks it would be an advisable thing to do it might save a lot of bother in the future in connection with old age pensions.

Other Deputies who have had recourse to the Department have stated that they have been treated very fairly and decently by the officials there. I would like to add my tribute to others in that connection. I had several cases of appeals regarding old age pensions, and I must say that any time I went to the Department I was met very fairly there. In cases where pensions officers had appealed against the decision, if there was any slight evidence in favour of the applicant for pension that could be brought forward in support of the original claim the Department was certainly very fair in the matter. In a good many cases I was successful, and the pension was given to these people although the pensions officer had appealed against the granting of it. I would like to say that, as far as the Department is concerned, they do their utmost certainly to meet all cases of appeal.

I want to conclude by asking the Minister to give consideration to the point about the affidavits, if he thinks it is worthy of consideration.

Mr. SMITH

I would like to support the suggestion made by Deputy Maguire, that there should be closer co-operation between the pensions officers and the local sub-committees. It seems to me that the pensions officers who functioned under the British regime have a kind of feeling that Pension Committees were not very scrupulous during that time, and that perhaps these are composed, even yet, of men who are not very scrupulous. I think it is only right to inform the Minister that as far as we know there is a complete change of heart on the part of the local committees and that they realise their responsibility to the fullest. I think, when the pension sub-committees make recommendations, especially where means are involved, that more co-operation should certainly exist between the pension officers and these committees. I find that there is not that co-operation that should be there. I think that is a very good suggestion, and I hope that more recognition will be taken of the recommendations and decisions of the sub-committee in the future in this matter.

Mr. JOHN DALY

In my district I find that about ten or twelve years ago pensions were allotted to poor old women whose sons had married at that time. Now that pension was a reduced one, and since that time a family of seven or eight have grown up. As I said, the pension was a reduced one at the time it was granted, because of the means and the land. But I hold that when seven or eight children come along they over-balance the means, and they should be taken into account now.

There is another case in my particular district, a particular case where a woman, when giving the wages of her husband, said he was a labouring man getting ordinary wages. The pensions officer found out that he was a road steward getting £2 a week. That was only two or three years after she had enjoyed the ten shillings a week. He found that she had £60 overdrawn. Now he is paying her the pension only by giving her credit for the ten shillings a week in the £60 she has overdrawn. The woman has now to be supported out of the rates, because her husband died a few years ago.

I am now making an appeal to the Minister. I was trying the other day to find him, but I could not catch up with him. I am making the appeal now before the whole House, and I am sure there is not a Deputy here who would object to the woman getting the 10/- a week now. I ask that the poor old woman get a clear sheet after having paid £30 out of the £60 that was overdrawn. If she is given back the 10/- a week it will be a relief to the rates. She will drop out of the rates, and we have a lot of people ready to drop into her shoes. I make a personal appeal to the Minister. I am afraid to go home if I cannot do something for her in this case.

Mr. CORRY

I would like to support Deputy Daly in that case, because I know the particulars of it. I was, however, astonished to hear that there was any Minister that Deputy Daly could not capture. I would also wish to support Deputy Mullin's statement here that you either wipe out the committees or give them at least some power. I think the action of the pensions officers in many cases is to be deplored, particularly with regard to the matter of means. I happen to be a member of a pensions sub-committee. Some of these reports came up before us and the actual valuation of means was ridiculous. There was a valuation of so many hens which were on the poor old woman's place, and there was a valuation placed on so many eggs in the year. I do not know whether the pensions officer was in consultation with anybody or if he valued how many eggs would the hen lay in the year. I think it is ridiculous.

Very small farmers, in making over their places to their sons on marriage, keep a room in the house. They have their meals and clothing, and so on. Now very often the owner of that farm at the present day is a man with a wife and young family to support, and if he has to provide for the support of the father and mother in addition he is apt to clear out and leave the place and all there. As the Minister is aware, at the present day, those small farmers are not able to pay their way, not to mind supporting their fathers and mothers. The stopping of the old age pension on these grounds—and it is occurring every day—is very unjust and unfair. I think in these cases the Minister should make some special change in the arrangement by which these old people will not be victimised in this manner. You have the case of a small holding with a valuation of £50, perhaps some of them as low as £10 valuation, in which the old couple keep a room in the house and they get their clothing and, therefore, under the existing arrangement they are to be kept out of their pension on that account. That is unjust and unfair.

In regard to the onus of proof, that is another matter that is unfair. We had several cases of that description in my area recently, and I must say that as far as I could judge the objections of the pensions officer were totally unsound. The people were, apparently at any rate, over seventy years. I think that the victimisation of these people, because they cannot bring forward their birth certificates, is very unfair.

I submit that where people in the district who know them and who are themselves over seventy years, and who can vouch that those people are older than they are themselves, should be sufficient for them in the way of proving their age. I would ask the Minister to give very serious and definite consideration to the case of small farmers in this matter of means. Farmers at present have very little means, and if they have to support the old parents the burden will be too heavy, and it only means that these people will have to be wiped out.

Mr. KILLANE

There is just one phase of the question about old age pensioners to which I would direct the attention of the Minister. That is the case of the small farmer who has a grown-up son. The choice that is presented to that son is to wait for the father to die or to go to America or some other country to earn a living. Everybody in this House recognises that it is a loss to this country to have so many of the youth leaving the land. The old fellow will not give up the farm to the son and allow him to get married until he himself dies. He will hold on to it. It is not worth the son's while waiting for a little bit of land, perhaps five or ten acres. He has no choice but to go to America or wait until he is almost ready to draw the old age pension himself. That is a phase of the question that ought to be considered in its national aspect. The Minister should devote some little thought to it. It will be the means of keeping at least one member of a family at home, and it will put the land into the possession of the young, energetic man, who will be able to manage it both in his own interest and for the benefit of the State. A man of seventy years is not able to do much farm work, either to his own advantage or to the advantage of the country. There are many farms from five to fifteen acres in extent, and it is hardly worth a young fellow's while to wait for ten or twenty years for the old fellow to die, wishing probably every day for his death. It is not worth a young man's while to wait so long in order to take over possession. Possibly the land would come into his hands when he would be a cripple and almost entitled to the pension.

Mr. HOLT

One of the main grievances of applicants for pensions is that the details with regard to their means are not furnished to them. A list of the items that comprise their means, together with a list of the prices charged, all of which go to make up the statement that the pensions officer prepares, is never furnished. An applicant is informed that he has been refused a pension on the grounds of means. The old person, who in most cases is unable to read or write, is expected to make a statement refuting what has been submitted by the pensions officer. The applicant has no idea of what comprises the statement of means, and he does not know how it is made up. He is, nevertheless, asked to submit proof that his means do not exceed a certain amount which is submitted by the pensions officer. I do not see how, in the present circumstances, he can do that. Either the Committee or the pensioner should be furnished with a list of the items that go to make up the statement of means. The Committee should have that, and the pensioner should have access to it.

Mr. KILROY

We find in the West that the stipulations between old people and their children who are about to be married, or who are actually married, are one of the greatest obstacles to the old people receiving pensions. It is quite natural that the old people, in parting with a little farm, would make a stipulation of that kind as regards maintenance, and it is not fair that such an item should debar those poor people from receiving a pension. They have been paying taxes all their lives, and it is a very serious problem for them if they are debarred from receiving a pension. The little farm is not sufficient for them to live on, and when they come to this age, a little item of the kind I have mentioned should not debar them from their just rest.

As far as blind pensions are concerned, persons must be totally blind before they can receive a pension. I hope in the new Bill the Minister will see that there will not be any hardship on the old people as there was in the past. People who are not really able to work because of blindness are entitled to get a pension. They may perhaps have sight enough to walk around, but not enough to work. I know instances where such people were deprived of pensions. That matter requires serious consideration, because the hardships are very severe indeed.

I find that the local pensions officers are usually afraid of supervision from the Local Government Department. When the Department sends down an inspector, the inspector visits the old people and interrogates them. Instructions should be sent to the inspectors to be more considerate as far as judging the age and appearance of an old person is concerned. I know of many instances where people who were unable to prove their age, although they had reached the limit, were deprived of their pensions. Any lenient-minded person would easily admit that they were over seventy. Many people who submit affidavits with regard to their age usually put a stamp of two shillings or two and sixpence on the affidavit. I understand that stamp is not at all necessary, and I think it is the duty of the officials concerned to make that known to the old people.

Mr. BLYTHE

When the Old Age Pensions Act of 1924 was passed the Minister for Local Government and myself interviewed the officials responsible for dealing with appeals, and we asked them to deal as sympathetically as they could with all cases, and if there was a real doubt to give the applicant the benefit of that doubt. I have no doubt that the praise we have heard to-day of the appeal officials results from the instructions then given. I think, on the whole, there is very little to complain of in the administration of the Act. No matter what regulations or provisions we may have, difficulties will always arise. I believe the provisions that exist at the present time are in the main satisfactory.

Deputies have suggested that no attention was paid to the opinions of the local committees, and Deputies have also suggested that pensions officers appeared to have instructions to oppose all applications. That is not so. They have no such instructions. They are left the largest possible measure of freedom in exercising their judgment in different cases. For instance, in estimating means, it is the duty of the officers to keep lists of prices locally and, so far as they can, give an impartial and accurate estimate of the means. Where you have numbers of officers operating in different areas where the circumstances vary it is impossible to obtain uniformity of outlook or uniformity of treatment, and one officer is bound to take a different view from the view that would be taken by another officer in the same case, and we only get uniformity in so far as it can be got by the operations of the appeals tribunal. It is impossible to give any better instructions where there is such diversity of conditions than that officers should take all the circumstances into account and act quite impartially. I am satisfied that officers do that, and that if there are differences they are simply honest differences that you will find in the outlook of any two men dealing with any work like this.

I do not think I need attempt to go over the individual points raised by Deputies. As I indicated in reply to a question the other day, the drafting of the amending legislation in regard to blind pensions seems to be extremely difficult. It is one of those cases where, if a certain type of amendment were passed, we should find that we had departed altogether from the principle of blind pensions and had instituted a system of invalidity pensions, which is a step we are not prepared to take at present. Meantime, while consideration is being given to this question of amending the definition of blindness, instructions have been given again for the most sympathetic administration of the Act, and I understand that as a result of that special sympathetic administration of the Act, the number of hardships that were experienced have been very materially reduced.

I do not think that we can remove the provision whereby the onus of proof of age lies on the applicant, but if any sort of reasonable evidence is given it is accepted. Where no evidence can be given, and where no affidavit that will contain any facts that indicate that it is really based on knowledge can be made, inspectors are sent down to see the person, to talk with those who have known that person for a considerable length of time, and to come to a conclusion. We have been using the inspectors much more frequently than in the past. I do not know that any great change can be made in that respect. I would remind Deputies that in the case of blind pensions and old age pensions, as in other matters, we are up against many unfounded applications and, in many cases, the cooking of evidence. I mentioned last year, I think, that in two parishes in County Mayo a conspiracy of fraud had existed for a considerable time. The agents of the fraud were two parish clerks who prepared false birth certificates, and the clergymen in these parishes were so careless as to sign the certificates prepared by the clerks and submitted to them without even checking them. The result was that the Revenue authorities accepted these certificates signed by the local clergymen, and were actually defrauded of £27,000. Things like that indicate that you can push the plea that the pensions officers should be sympathetic too far. It is much easier and better, where sympathy has to be exercised, that it should be exercised by the appeal tribunal, and that the pensions officer, while he should not act against the applicant, should take all care to see that nobody gets a pension who is not entitled to it. If an old age pension be given to somebody who was not entitled to it, it means on the average that from £120 to £140 of State money goes to waste. I do not see that, in the main, any change can be made in the system, or that any steps can be taken to give instructions to officers to scrutinise cases less carefully than they do.

With regard to the old age pension committees, some time ago when some changes were being made in the law it was suggested that the committees should be abolished. When we looked into the matter, we came to the conclusion at that time that as far as the great majority of the committees were concerned it would be all to the good to abolish them, but that there was a minority of committees who had done their work well and conscientiously. For the sake of that minority, and in the hope that we might find other committees later on taking a more serious view of their responsibilities, we retained the committees. I am satisfied that where there is a good committee, which does not pass cases without scrutiny, and does not pass cases that it knows to be wrong, then a great deal of attention is paid to the opinion of that committee. But where we have a careless committee, an entirely irresponsible committee, the members of which are simply out to get a little popularity by passing all the cases that come forward and by awarding the full amount, then no attention is paid to the opinion of that committee. There can only be improved co-operation between the officers and the committees according as the committees take a more serious view of their duties in the matter. As I said, there have always been some good committees. It may be that within the past two or three years other committees have improved and that we have a greater number of good committees now.

With reference to taking 10 per cent. of the value of the money in the bank as income, that is prescribed by the Act, which says that the first £25 of the capital value shall be excluded, and that the yearly value of so much of the capital as exceeds the sum of £25 shall be taken to be one-tenth part of the capital value thereof. So that in doing that the officers were simply carrying out the provisions of the Act. I do not think that we can ignore any kind of means in calculating what is the weekly or yearly income of a person for the purpose of the Old Age Pensions Acts. It does not make a bit of difference whether the money comes from a shop, a farm, a pension from the British Government, or anything of that sort. I think it would mean a fundamental alteration of the Acts if we excluded any class of means. I think we must include all. If we decided, on the other hand, to abandon the means qualification altogether, it would mean a very great increase in the sum annually required, and I do not think we can make any change.

It was agreed upon some time ago, and legislation is being prepared to deal with the case of people who lose their pensions going into the county homes and cannot obtain them without a fresh application. Deputy Jordan suggested a stock affidavit. It is not that the affidavits are valueless or that they are ignored because of their form; it is because of their substance. I do not think if a person said: "I believe so-and-so is seventy years of age because I am seventy-two myself and he was in the next class below me in school" that that affidavit would not do. The use of the words "I believe" would not invalidate it. But if it is an affidavit that is entirely vague and contains no facts that the person making it knew of, then it has to be ignored. Deputy Daly mentioned a case where he thinks the pension that was fair some years ago would not be fair now because several children have to be supported out of the production of the farm who had not to be supported when the pension was given. It is open to the pensioner to raise the question and to have the pension reviewed.

With regard to people excluded on the ground of being United States citizens and for similar reasons, it is recognised that the provisions of the Act in that respect should be amended.

Question put and agreed to.