I move: That Deputy Flinn be suspended from the service of the House.
SUSPENSION OF A DEPUTY.
The question is: "That Deputy Flinn be suspended from the service of the House."
I would like to tell the House——
I think the motion is carried.
I would like to tell the House——
The motion is carried. Deputy Flinn will withdraw from the House.
DEPUTIES
Votáil.
I heard no Division challenged.
A DEPUTY
Yes, it was.
Division ordered.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 71; Níl, 55.
Tá
- Aird, William P.
- Beckett, James Walter.
- Bennett, George Cecil.
- Blythe, Ernest.
- Brennan, Michael.
- Broderick, Henry.
- Brodrick, Seán.
- Byrne, Alfred.
- Byrne, John Joseph.
- Carey, Edmund.
- Doherty, Eugene.
- Dolan, James N.
- Doyle, Peadar Seán.
- Duggan, Edmund John.
- Dwyer, James.
- Egan, Barry M.
- Fitzgerald, Desmond.
- Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
- Good, John.
- Haslett, Alexander.
- Hassett, John J.
- Heffernan, Michael R.
- Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
- Hennessy, Thomas.
- Hennigan, John.
- Henry, Mark.
- Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
- Holohan, Richard.
- Jordan, Michael.
- Law, Hugh Alexander.
- Leonard, Patrick.
- Lynch, Finian.
- Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
- McDonogh, Martin.
- McFadden, Michael Og.
- McGilligan, Patrick.
- Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
- Conlon, Martin.
- Connolly, Michael P.
- Cooper, Bryan Ricco.
- Cosgrave, William T.
- Crowley, James.
- Daly, John.
- Davin, William.
- Davis, Michael.
- De Loughrey, Peter.
- Mongan, Joseph W.
- Mulcahy, Richard.
- Murphy, James E.
- Murphy, Joseph Xavier.
- Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
- Myles, James Sproule.
- Nally, Martin Michael.
- Nolan, John Thomas.
- O'Connell, Thomas J.
- O'Connor, Bartholomew.
- O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
- O'Hanlon, John F.
- O'Leary, Daniel.
- O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
- O'Reilly, John J.
- O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
- Reynolds, Patrick.
- Roddy, Martin.
- Shaw, Patrick W.
- Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
- Thrift, William Edward.
- Tierney, Michael.
- Vaughan, Daniel.
- White, Vincent Joseph.
- Wolfe, Jasper Travers.
Níl
- Allen, Denis.
- Blaney, Neal.
- Boland, Gerald.
- Boland, Patrick.
- Bourke, Daniel.
- Brady, Seán.
- Briscoe, Robert.
- Buckley, Daniel.
- Carney, Frank.
- Carty, Frank.
- Clery, Michael.
- Coburn, James.
- Colbert, James.
- Cooney, Eamon.
- Corkery, Dan.
- Corry, Martin John.
- Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
- Crowley, Tadhg.
- Derrig, Thomas.
- De Valera, Eamon.
- Fahy, Frank.
- Flinn, Hugo.
- Fogarty, Andrew.
- French, Seán.
- Gorry, Patrick J.
- Goulding, John.
- Hayes, Seán.
- Holt, Samuel.
- Houlihan, Patrick.
- Jordan, Stephen.
- Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
- Kent, William R.
- Kerlin, Frank.
- Killane, James Joseph.
- Killilea, Mark.
- Kilroy, Michael.
- Lemass, Seán F.
- Little, Patrick John.
- Maguire, Ben.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- MacEntee, Seán.
- Moore, Séumas.
- Mullins, Thomas.
- O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
- O'Kelly, Seán T.
- O'Reilly, Matthew.
- Powell, Thomas P.
- Ruttledge, Patrick J.
- Ryan, James.
- Sexton, Martin.
- Sheehy, Timothy (Tipperary).
- Smith, Patrick.
- Tubridy, John.
- Walsh, Richard.
- Ward, Francis C.
Tellers:—Tá Deputies Duggan and P.S. Doyle. Níl: Deputies G. Boland and Allen.
The motion is carried, and I accordingly ask Deputy Flinn to withdraw from the House.
On a point of order. Is it wrong for a Deputy to use the words "privileged attack," when a Minister chooses to speak last and is in the privileged position of making statements to which no Deputy is in a position to reply?
I do not know if we can now discuss the question of what has happened. The Deputy asked me the question: Is it in order for a Deputy to say that a Minister is making a privileged attack? I did not hear these words used. I thought different words were used. It is not in order for any Deputy to make an attack upon the Chair—upon anybody occupying the Chair, whether the Ceann Comhairle, the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, or a Deputy who is a member of the Panel of Chairmen. I did not catch any reference at all to the fact that the Minister was speaking last. The reference I caught seemed to have reference to the Chair. In any event the question has been put and decided, and I do not think we can go back on it now.
I wish formally to protest on behalf of our Party—we think the Ceann Comhairle is irritable this morning.
Deputy Flinn will have to withdraw in any event, as he has been asked. The decision of the House has been given and Deputy Flinn has been asked to withdraw in accordance with that decision, and I think no point of order can be raised on that.
Mr. Flinn then withdrew from the House.
As you have admitted that you did not catch what Deputy Flinn said——
Perhaps the Deputy will allow me to say this. A certain question has been put from the Chair and decided, and we cannot have any point of order raised on that —that matter is now decided. The Deputy is mistaken altogether in his attitude towards the Chair if he thinks that, when a point of order is put to the Chair, the Chair admits that it is a matter for argument. I answered Deputy de Valera's point, though I think there was no necessity, strictly speaking, to answer the point at all, seeing that it relates to something that was already decided. The question is decided, and a point of order cannot be raised now on it, but if any Deputy desires to raise the point generally and gives me notice of it, he can raise it subsequently, or the matter can be raised generally by a motion in the House, but no question can be raised now on a decision which has been reached. The Deputy will realise that.
Could we get any information as to what the Deputy was suspended for?
Not now.
He was suspended by the House.
Merely by a majority vote—putting him out of the House without any conceivable justification whatever. In my opinion there was no more disorder——
Call in Dr. Lange to give a lecture.
I wish to protest against Deputy Flinn being put out of the House. There were absolutely no grounds for it. (Interruption and cries of "Sit down.") I will sit down just when I like. No Deputy will make me sit down.
Will the Deputy sit down.
I protest against a very illegal action on your part. (Cries of "Sit down" and interruption.)
Deputy Coburn must sit down or he must be named.
I want to protest against the wrong decision taken here this morning—it is most illegal.
The Chair allowed an insult yesterday evening from a Minister to pass. Ministers can do what they like.
There is no use getting into a state over this matter. This whole question is one which can be decided. A particular decision has been taken.
On a wrong statement made by the Chair.
That may be. The decision has been taken and it cannot be gone into now. It may be gone into at a future date, but it cannot be gone into now.
We heard the words "privileged attack." That has been distorted now into "privilege of the cat."
I gave Deputy Flinn an opportunity of saying what he actually stated.
Did you get information that the Government had a majority before you enforced the expulsion? (Interruption.)
The impression here is that there is, on the part of the Chair, a decided prejudice against Deputy Flinn which does not appear against other Deputies.
Let us get clear on this. This is rather a disorderly discussion. Deputy Flinn has taken up a particular attitude——
You are prejudiced against him.
That attitude has been consistent towards the occupants of the Chair. When Deputy Padraic Hogan (Clare) was Leas-Cheann Comhairle he was told by Deputy Flinn that a ruling he had given was a "damn shame."
On a point of order. He did not say anything of the kind.
I am asked a question and I must answer it. Further, when other Deputies were in the Chair—when the Leas-Cheann Comhairle was in the Chair, the same thing happened constantly. The Ceann Comhairle and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle must not be put into the position of being constantly harped at. They are in quite a different position to Ministers. A Minister is fair game. In fact, Deputies have attacked Ministers to an almost endless degree. As I have pointed out frequently, to attack a Minister is generally in order, but it is not in order to adopt the same attitude towards the Chair. I dislike discussing this general matter in the absence of Deputy Flinn, but it might be possible to have it raised with Deputy Flinn present. We might possibly get the whole matter settled by next Wednesday. It was stated here a few days ago that when the Chair called upon a Minister to conclude the debate, that was the closure. That is an insinuation against the Chair which is constantly being made. Such a statement as was made here that the cat has come back was an improper statement in reference to the Chairman of this House. The general impression I received is that Deputy Flinn's attitude towards the Chair is altogether a wrong attitude. If I am deceived in that, I shall be the first person to acknowledge that I am deceived. There are 152 Deputies in the House and myself. With 151 of these Deputies it would appear that the Chair, whoever occupies it, is able to agree. With the 152nd there is some disagreement and there is at least a prima facie case that it is the fault of the Deputy. As I say, if I am deceived in my view as to the desire of a particular Deputy constantly to treat the Chair with disrespect, then I shall be very glad to be undeceived and very glad indeed to start upon a new line. I feel that if responsible Deputies on the Front Opposition Bench are desirous of consulting the Ceann Comhairle on this matter it may be susceptible of settlement. I think it is hardly susceptible of settlement by speeches across the House, and not susceptible at all of settlement by disorderly interruptions.
As far as I am concerned, and as far as the Leas-Cheann Comhairle is concerned, we are quite prepared to discuss the matter either in the Committee on Procedure and Privileges or with the responsible leaders of the Opposition Party. That particular discussion might lead to a solution of the situation in which it appears to Deputies on the Opposition Benches that a particular Deputy is singled out for special treatment. That is the only suggestion I can make. I am prepared to allow that suggestion to work, but for the reasons I gave before on one occasion—not from my own point of view, because my own position in the Chair is perhaps such that I can refrain from taking notice of a great many things which may be said, but from the point of view of other Deputies who may succeed me in the Chair and who may have to fulfil the difficult duties that fall to the Chair—from that point of view I regard it as my bounden duty to see that a proper attitude is maintained by Deputies towards the occupant of the Chair. That is my principal concern in the matter. If there has been any mistake or any difficulty it may be solved. I think it cannot now be solved by Deputies, and particularly by taking it in the House when Deputy Flinn is absent.
There is something you said which possibly might have reference to something I said yesterday, and I would like to make——
I did not refer to the Deputy at all. I have no knowledge of anything the Deputy said yesterday—not the slightest.
With regard to Deputy Flinn's statement, the statement you quoted from him regarding Deputy Hogan when acting as Leas-Cheann Comhairle, that is absolutely incorrect. I was listening to the statement. He said: "If so-and-so, then it would be a damn shame."
The statement is on record. I have given it very careful consideration. It was definite. However, that makes no difference. If there is a misunderstanding, it can be cleared up. If there is no misunderstanding, and if any Deputy endeavours to carry out a particular line towards the Chair, that endeavour is bound to be unsuccessful. That is the whole situation.
In view of the fact that there was on the part of the Chair an obvious misunderstanding as to the words used by Deputy Flinn, in view of the further fact that Deputies do not appear to know why the suspension was moved, and the additional fact that Deputy Flinn was, in my opinion, no more disorderly than many other Deputies have been on many occasions, will you take a motion now to rescind the decision that has been arrived at?
I will not. I suggest to the Deputy that there is a method by which a solution can be found before Wednesday. I will not take a motion now. I disagree with the suggestion that any other Deputy was disorderly to the Chair in that particular fashion—I do not think that is so. I think Deputy Lemass himself is an example to the contrary.
Might I give what seems to me an explanation of the words that the Chair complained of, particularly about "the cat comes back"? I did not catch that word. It seems to me that the idea is that you are stricter than the previous occupant of the Chair. Surely we all recognise that some people in the Chair have a greater degree of strictness than others. I do not think that particular remark was in any way uncomplimentary to the Chair.
That may be. It seems to me that the Deputy was introducing a particular meaning in the Minister's speech deal-with the Leas-Cheann Comhairle which the Minister's speech did not contain. It is quite in order to say that a certain statement was irrelevant. The Chair does not take that as a reflection on the Chair. If it did, the Chair would be very busy rebutting reflection on the Chair. When I read the debates, I charge myself continually with extreme leniency. As I say, if there is a misunderstanding it can be cleared up between the leaders of Deputy Flinn's Party, the Leader of the House, and the Ceann Comhairle before the next meeting.
May I make this clear? The previous remarks made by Deputy Flinn were certainly considered by the Chair, but the subsequent action was taken by the Chair arising out of what you understood Deputy Flinn to have said. I want to make it clear that what I heard Deputy Flinn definitely state was "privileged attack." You may have imagined him to have said "the privilege of the cat." That was wrong on your part, and I wish to have on record what he said. I took the precaution of asking Deputy Flinn if what I heard was right and he said "Yes." You are not clear yet as to what he has said. I would like to ask you now if you still think he said "the privilege of the cat," or if you are satisfied that the words he used were "privileged attack"?
I would have taken Deputy Flinn's word at once as to what he had said. If he said the words were so-and-so I would accept that at once, and I accept Deputy Briscoe's statement as to what was said.
Standing Orders do not permit of a review of a case in which a decision of the House has been taken in a matter of this kind. They are such that they exalt into a very important and privileged position the Speaker of the House. That is a position as to which I think there is general agreement amongst all Parties from their experience of the attitude which must be maintained to the Chairman of the House. If an occasion should arise when there is disagreement as to the judgment of the Chair, that cannot be settled immediately. It may be settled afterwards and ought to be settled satisfactorily, but certainly not in the heated atmosphere in which the incident occurs. The spirit of the Standing Orders, as I read them, is that a decision of the Chair must be accepted without question, and the decision of the House which follows upon that, whether we subscribe to it one way or another, is fundamental to the conduct of business. If there has been a misunderstanding in this connection, if there has been a misconception, if there has been any incident which ought to be taken into account this is not the time for it. It cannot be done satisfactorily. We have business to discharge here and can only do it in the light of the Standing Orders as they are framed. I think members generally will agree that subsequent to such an occasion as has taken place with regard to the decision of the House is not the time to settle any matter in dispute and I would suggest that it should be allowed to drop at the moment.
Those are your Standing Orders.
I realise that this thing can only be discussed now with the courtesy of the Chair. A decision of the House has been come to, and the Chair must be upheld. We all realise that it would be impossible to conduct this or any other assembly if the decision of the Chair were not upheld. It seems to me a palpable injustice has been done. It seems to me— I have been here during the whole debate, as many of the members were not —that the injustice might be undone as quickly as it was done. Deputy Flinn's general attitude in the House is one we cannot discuss now, but his attitude and his statements which brought about the decision which has been come to were not, I believe, intended to be offensive to the Chair, and were not directed to the Chair. If the Ceann Comhairle, as he certainly did, did think it was offensive to the Chair he was mistaken. I believe from what has been said that the Ceann Comhairle probably realises by now that he misunderstood the statement. Therefore, sir, again by courtesy of the Chair, perhaps as an injustice has been done to a member of the House, that injustice might be undone just as hastily as it was done.
I do not think that is possible. I asked the Deputy to repeat what he said. He refused to repeat it, and therefore I had no means of determining what was said except by my first impression. I think the atmosphere created by the discussion we had is a good and proper one, but I do not think we can go into the matter now. I think before next Wednesday, if there has been a misunderstanding, that can be cleared up. The suspension of the Deputy would last for a fortnight. Deputy O'Kelly stated that what Deputy Flinn said was imperfectly understood, and that the Deputy did not mean any reflection upon the Chair. On that statement coming from the Deputy himself the matter might be settled, but I do not think we can settle it now. A decision of the House has been taken, and cannot be gone into now, but if there is an injustice it can be settled.
As I was sitting beside Deputy Flinn——
We cannot continue now. I accept completely Deputy Briscoe's account.
I will not detain you a second. What I am afraid of is this. At any future time if the Ceann Comhairle appears a little defective in his hearing it may precipitate the precipitation of us from this House.
The Ceann Comhairle will have to have his hearing attended to.