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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Apr 1929

Vol. 29 No. 1

Adjournment Debate. - Arrests in Dublin.

At Question time to-day, I asked the Minister for Justice to give us certain information concerning the activities on which the Detective Division of the Civic Guards has recently been engaged in Dublin City and County, and the Minister refused to give that information. There is at present in operation in Dublin a terroristic campaign directed against certain individuals and conducted by members of the police force. The Executive Council and the proprietors of the daily newspapers of the country are in conspiracy to prevent any information concerning that campaign reaching the ears of the general public. I think it is well, however, that members of the Dáil who have a primary and direct responsibility in this matter should understand what is happening. During the last three or four weeks a certain number of individuals in the City of Dublin have been made the victims of a carefully-planned and deliberately-carried-out scheme of terrorism. They have been arrested repeatedly, imprisoned for short periods in the Bridewell and released again. I understand that the law of the land is that a person cannot be detained for a period longer than twenty-four hours without being charged before a magistrate.

In order to avoid the necessity of compliance with that law, these individuals are released after twenty-three hours, and in some cases after twenty-three hours and fifty-nine minutes, re-arrested outside the Bridewell and imprisoned for another period of the same duration. Some of them have been arrested as frequently as fifteen times within the last few weeks. Every time they have appeared outside the doors of their own homes they have been taken into custody by members of the Civic Guard and lodged in the Bridewell. Houses have been forcibly entered, in many cases without the justification of a warrant. Doors have been broken, forcible entry has been made, and the occupants of the house threatened and abused. What the purpose of the campaign is it is not hard to decide. We get an indication of it from the fact that it is frequently reported to us that when these individuals are arrested by members of the Civic Guard, the attitude of the Civic Guard towards them is expressed in the words used: "We are going to make you fight." A number of the individuals have been assaulted.

Since the Dáil adjourned on 22nd March a slight change in tactics has been decided upon. Instead of the men being released in the day time they are now released at two and three o'clock in the morning. In many cases they are taken in motors out to the country and severely beaten and then released. I think it is not extraordinary that the Minister for Justice was so anxious to refuse any information in this matter to the Dáil. It is not extraordinary that the cloak of silence has been flung over these activities by the daily Press, considering that the daily Press is constant in its support of the Government. That is what is happening. It is well known to be happening to a number of citizens of Dublin. It is not so well known outside Dublin. The campaign has been in progress since the start of the by-election in Dublin City, North. We want to know why. I can tell you straight away the answer to that question which the Minister for Justive will give. He will tell us that it is a campaign for the suppression of crime and the suppression of criminals. I want to tell him that that is not so. The facts prove that it is not so. Men in custody on Saturday evening are released—the detectives do not like to work on Sunday—and are re-arrested on Monday. The men who were in custody during Holy Week were released on Holy Thursday for Easter, and were re-arrested on the following Tuesday. Does that look as if these men were criminals, dangerous criminals who should not be lost sight of, whom it was necessary to terrorise? Does that look as if the Minister or the Civic Guard really believe that these men, whom they have made the victims of their activities, are what they represent them to be?

We have no sympathy with crime. A very large number of the men arrested—those with whom I have been able to get in touch—have no sympathy with crime. They are men as honourable and as honest as any individual in this Dáil, and I know that. I suggest that this activity is embarked upon in order to provoke disorder in this country, which the party managers of Cumann na nGaedheal believe will be to their advantage and their interest. I deliberately accuse the Government of utilising the machinery which a majority of the Dáil has placed in their hands to provoke shooting and bloodshed, to provoke disorder in this country for their own ends, because they believe by doing so they will be able to stampede a section of the people into giving them that support which they will not now accord them. I make that accusation deliberately. The Minister will deny it. The members of the detective division who are carrying out the Minister's orders do not deny it. They have repeatedly said that these men will be subject to this persecution until they fight. What do they mean by fight? Until they hit back, until some of them, driven desperate by the persecution, will take the law into their own hands and hit back at their accusers. A number of these men have lost their employment. It was only to be expected that an employer, employing men who, he cannot be certain, will turn in to their work every morning, will find it necessary to dispense with the services of such men. I have one case in mind, the case of a married man with six children who was employed by Messrs. Guinness. He was employed by Messrs. Guinness for many years. He was arrested five times in one week, lost his employment, and now he is starving. That does not matter to the Minister or the party managers of Cumann na nGaedheal so long as these activities bring about the state of things which they think they are calculated to provoke. I think it is well that Deputies should know what is happening, and well that they should have an opportunity of saying whether it should be permitted to happen or not.

We had a discussion on this matter in the debate on the Central Fund Bill. In the course of the discussion I asked was it not a recognised principle of government in this State that men are considered innocent until proved guilty, that any man charged with a crime should be brought into court and faced with his accuser. The Minister for Justice described these statements as clichés of nineteenth century Liberalism. Apparently these principles, which are recognised as the foundation of government in most civilized countries, are something to be sneered at and derided in this Dáil. You have in your Constitution certain principles enunciated: "The dwelling of each citizen is inviolable and shall not be forcibly entered except in accordance with law.""The liberty of the person is inviolable and no person shall be deprived of his liberty except in accordance with law." Are these more clichés to be ignored or are they to apply to adherents of one Party in the State only? Is justice to become the prerogative of the supporters of Cumann na nGaedheal? Is it for that the Minister for Justice or those who act for him, because I do not believe he was consulted in the matter, have marked out certain individuals to be broken by this persecution? Are they to be deprived of the rights of citizenship, of all the rights you guarantee them by your Constitution and the rights which in any civilised countries would not be denied them?

We have heard from members of Cumann na nGaedheal in this Dáil and from others outside it frequent expressions of their adherence to the principles of democratic government and the will of the people. We have had the President in the recent election campaign, prior to the opening of this terroristic campaign, talking about the necessity of preserving the right of trial by jury in this State and of the great things they were going to do to preserve that right. Does trial by jury apply only to one section of the people? If these men are guilty of any crime, if there is the slightest shred of evidence to connect them with any crime why are they not brought into court and that suspicion substantiated there? If there is against these men the slightest justification for the action taken, it is, I think, the duty of the Civic Guard and the duty of the Minister for Justice to have these men charged before a magistrate. That is not being done and the fact that it is not being done is proof that they have no evidence, that they are unable to associate these individuals with anything that has happened in this country. I hope members of the Dáil will take some opportunity, an opportunity which they may have on some other occasion, to express disapproval of these occurrences by their votes. They cannot do it now but I think they ought seriously to consider the facts now. I think also that the people of the country, through this Dáil, ought to know what is happening, that here at any rate we should make an effort to break down the barrier that is erected between the activities of the Civic Guard and the people by the daily Press. We have a definite statement from the Minister for Justice that no order was issued to the Press not to publish reports of these raids. We have it stated by the Minister that it was not even intimated to the proprietors of newspapers that the Government considered it undesirable that they should publish reports of raids. The daily Press of Dublin is deliberately of its own free will keeping this information from the people. I hope that fact will be remembered by certain Deputies in this Dáil. It certainly will be remembered by those on this side.

I do not want to take up any considerable portion of the time allowed for the discussion. I merely want to suggest that it seems to me, from the situation, that the campaign which is being conducted against these individuals is an illegal one. It seems to me that those who ordered that campaign, who are associated with it and carry it out, are committing illegalities. The question whether they are or are not committing illegalities may not be questioned in the courts while this Government is in office, but I can assure Deputies here and those associated with the campaign outside the House that if there is any foundation for the belief that this campaign is illegal, and that these constant arrests and imprisonments are being carried out in violation of the Constitution, on some day they will have to take their trial for that action before a jury. There is, I think, no Statute of Limitations applying in matters of this kind. Deputies may be inclined to think that I am exaggerating. I am not. It is inevitable, if this campaign is continued, that there will be reaction. I think it is inevitable that the individuals subject to persecution of this kind will do one of two things: either they will clear from the country or take retaliatory action, and it is on that fact that the Ministry are banking. It is to produce one or other of these two results, preferably the latter. I assert that they have decided on that line of action deliberately, because they hope by it to produce a feeling in the country that it is necessary to maintain them in office as the people who dealt with disorder before and may be trusted to deal with it again; but if such disorder takes place in this State I want the Deputies to understand that they are now being informed that it will take place as a direct consequence of the provocation which the Government are giving.

This has been, in a way, rather an interesting discussion, and this very highly rhetorical speech which Deputy Lemass has just poured out has been rather interesting. As usual, of course, Deputy Lemass is endeavouring, after his fashion, to run with the hare and to hunt with the hounds, to take the part of crime and to denounce crime, to show all his sympathies with those men who are endeavouring by criminal methods to upset this State and to make life impossible for respectable citizens in this State. All his sympathy goes with them, and then he flings in an odd expression here and there, "I have no sympathy with crime." What was the whole tenor of his speech? What was his whole question to-day? What were the objects of his question? Were they to get information? Not at all. He tells us he is absolutely full of information. He knows all about everything. He does not want information. What does he want? He wants to bring all the influence that he himself possesses, all the influence that he can arouse in his Party, to hinder the Guards in their efforts to keep down crime and what I trust will be their successful efforts to keep down crime. What has happened? There was as dastardly and as cowardly a murder as could be committed, the murder of young Mr. Armstrong. There was an attempt to murder a man—Mr. White—who had done nothing else except his duty as a citizen in a clear case of finding a prisoner guilty. I heard no denunciation of these crimes from Deputy Lemass.

Yes, you did. That is not true.

Will you let us have it now?

I have denounced these crimes in the House, and if the Minister wants to speak let him stick to the truth. He has deliberately stated that I sympathise with crime and with criminals. He is not speaking the truth.

Let us get from Deputy Lemass and from Deputy Lemass's Party a complete denunciation of the crimes.

Let us get from the Minister for Justice control over his forces. That is what we want.

As usual, Deputy de Valera goes off the track with his red herring. That is not the way to get a clear answer to a clear and definite question.

Let the Minister follow the clue I gave him and he will be tracking down some dangerous criminals that are in his own employment.

Deputies listened to Deputy Lemass's speech.

I did not accuse the Minister of sympathy with crime.

The Deputy accused the Minister of stirring up crime in the country.

May I ask the Ceann Comhairle if Deputy Lemass in the course of his speech did not denounce the crimes to which the Minister referred?

I only desired to indicate that when one strong speech is made on one side without interruption we will have to hear a strong speech on the other side.

A true speech.

Truth is difficult to agree upon. We will have to hear the Minister giving his view.

You have heard of two crimes that were committed. Deputy Lemass talked of a scheme of terrorism. Who are the persons who are endeavouring to set up a scheme of terrorism?

The C.I.D.

You heard that there were gunmen going about committing murder——

The gun-bullies who took people into the fields at midnight and threatened them with guns.

There is a small body of men who are endeavouring to commit murder and on certain occasions they succeeded, as in the unfortunate case of poor Mr. Armstrong. Are those men to be allowed to carry on? Are they to be allowed to hatch their conspiracy? Are they to be allowed to make other arrangements that they wish to make for the carrying on of their murder campaign? Is that your idea? Or are those men to be carefully watched, arrested and examined if there is any suspicion against them? Are those men to be prevented from carrying out what they are endeavouring to carry out, a terrorist scheme to prevent the functioning of juries in this country, and to prevent, as I say, decent citizens living lives which decent persons in a law-abiding State are entitled to live?

May I ask the Minister a question. How does he hope that the measures he is adopting are going to stop any of these things? How does he expect to trace down anybody by this procedure of arresting the same individuals five, six and ten times, and of taking men out and threatening them with guns in the fields and telling them that they must give information of this, that, and the other kind. If the Minister's attitude is going to be the attitude it was here when a question was raised by Deputy Hogan in respect of a certain information which was sworn in Clare as to outrages by C.I.D. on certain individuals—if he is going, before examining these things, to say that nothing of the kind occurred what can he expect from these forces but indiscipline of this kind?

That is a very long and interesting interlude. I wonder why the Deputy did not make a speech "off his own bat" instead of interrupting me.

Answer him.

I am perfectly entitled——

A Deputy

Hamar Greenwood.

Thank you. Any more interruptions?

He accepts that as a compliment.

I may inform the Deputy as far as the question Deputy Hogan asked was concerned, he suggested that assaults had been made on certain persons in Clare, and I told him I was satisfied on the reports before me that no such assaults had been committed. I am perfectly satisfied on the reports which I have that no such assaults were committed.

It is the Dublin metropolitan area we are now discussing.

Deputy de Valera has been asking this question.

Give him a halo as well as a harp.

The Minister knows what happened to young O'Keeffe down in County Cork.

I am afraid I must ask the Deputy to speak a little more slowly.

Deal with the remarks that have been made.

Let us come back to Dublin.

As far as Dublin is concerned, it is the duty of the Guards, and it is a duty which the Guards are going to carry out, to see that crime is prevented. They have a double duty. They have a duty to detect crime which has already been committed, and they have to do everything in their power to track down criminals. They have another duty and a more important duty, and that is to prevent crime.

By committing it.

What does any State exist for except to see that every law-abiding citizen is entitled to live his life——

In the Bridewell.

Without interruption.

Dr. Watson.

That is the first duty of every Government, and it is a duty which this Government intends to carry out. It is going to see that a handful——

I am anxious to get one piece of information from the Minister only, and that is: how does he expect that this procedure is going to do anything of the kind?

This procedure is going to stop crime. It has stopped it, and it will continue to stop it.

In what manner?

If the Deputies opposite do not wish to hear me, I have no further anxiety to continue.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.55 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 11th April.

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