Before the debate concludes, I should like to say a few words of appreciation of the work of the Guards as I see it done. I think that there are very few responsible people of any class who will agree to a reduction in this Vote. The work the Guards do is widely appreciated, and their work, as most of us know, and gladly admit, is well done. Their duties are manifold. Their work is not solely to keep order, as in other countries. Many other duties are imposed on them and many duties have been added to their work since the force was formed. I am quite confident that these duties are carried out in a courteous and in an efficient way, and the people, as far as I can see, are perfectly satisfied with the work done. The number of police in this country is being compared with the number in England and in other countries. England is not comparable with this country at all. I know portions of England extremely well, especially portions of Yorkshire and Lancashire, and I know the conditions under which the police work there and what they have got to do.
I think Deputy Little and Deputy Lemass talked about the Guards spending their time kicking their heels about to warm themselves and doing nothing but sitting on the walls. If the Deputies went to England they would find that in every country village in which there are policemen, these men spend most of their time attending to their vegetable gardens. In these rural villages in England the police have nothing to do but attend to the ordinary work in a rural village. They have not to do school attendance work or the thousand and one things that the Guards in this country are expected and have to do. If Deputies visited some of these rural villages in England they would indeed say that the policemen stationed in them have plenty of time on their hands. Our Guards are not eight hour day men. They are 24 hour day men, and are liable to be called on at any hour of the day or night to give advice and attend to different matters that may arise. I must say that, as a rule, our Guards are of the greatest possible assistance to the people in the district in which they are placed. I think it was Deputy Little who deplored the want of education in the Guards. He thought that they should not be given the work of filling up statistics in connection with agriculture; that they had not education enough for that. Most of the Guards, or at least a very large number of them, are the sons of farmers. They are of an extremely good class, and I think that in the police force of any country you would not find a better class of men than are to be found in the Gárda Síochána.
With regard to their efficiency in preparing agricultural statistics, a Guard came to me on Friday last to get statistics in connection with my farming operations. I do a certain amount of mixed farming, and I understand something about it. The Guard took an hour to do the work he had to do, and understood the work thoroughly. I had to write out information for him. He was not content with anything but a very full statement in regard to my agricultural implements and matters of that kind. I had to give him the number of them, and in fact had to go out and have them counted for him. He was particular to that degree. He showed no signs of want of education. In fact it was very much the reverse, and I may say that he was very much all there. It took him very nearly an hour to do all the work he had to do at my place. If a Guard has to do that in the case of the majority of the people, then I do not think the Guards have very much spare time to kick their heels about on the walls in the way that Deputy Little drew a picture of. Deputy Little also said it was sad to see 40,000 young men applying to be taken into the Guards; that it showed a very deplorable state of affairs. Work such as the Guards are engaged on attracts Irishmen in every country where the English language is spoken. In many countries the police force is very largely manned by Irishmen. You have a large number of Irishmen in the police force in London, Liverpool and New York. Conversation with a policeman in any of these centres will soon reveal to you where he came from, and in fact the county he came from. It is a class of work that appeals to Irishmen. The outdoor life of a policeman, and association with high-class men, as the police mostly are, appeals to these young Irishmen.
I know from experience that many of the Guards have been in good positions, and I know that they have been willing to give up these positions in order to get into the Guards. Only last week two young men who are in very good positions in certain establishments in my county came to me and asked me to recommend them for entrance into the Gárda Síochána. I made inquiries about them, and found that they were everything that was desirable, and I gave them a recommendation; but, of course, as Deputies are aware, recruiting has stopped for the Gárda Síochána. That shows that it is not because young men are driven to it that they apply to get into the Gárda Síochána, but because they like the work, and because they think, amongst other things, that in joining the Guards they are doing a service to their country.
Deputy Lemass spoke in favour of reducing the number of Gárda stations in the country. In his opening statement, the Minister alluded to the fact that he had applications for stations to be re-opened in many places throughout the country. From my own knowledge, I can say that in certain lonely country districts there is a strong feeling that stations ought to be re-opened. The people in these districts want them re-opened, and are not backward in saying so. I have been approached on that matter, not so much by people residing in my own county, but by people on the borders of it, and who in a way may be considered almost to belong to it. It is perfectly certain, to my mind, that there is a strong feeling that there should be no reduction in the number of Gárda stations that are being maintained. Rather the feeling is that the number should be increased. There was a matter mentioned by the Minister to which I want to allude, and that is the extension of the telephone system to all Gárda stations, no matter how backward they are. In fact, the more backward they are the greater the necessity there is, to my mind, to have them connected up with the telephone system. I have noticed that on the main line in the south of the country there are certain Gárda stations that are not connected by telephone. They certainly ought to be. When these stations are called up, they have to depend on the good nature of their neighbours to have the messages sent to them. There is one station near me where that occurs. The Gárda stations have to be called up from time to time on many matters, and where they are not connected by telephone the Gárda have to depend on the good nature of their neighbours who have the telephone installed to have the messages delivered to them. This is a matter on which there should be no saving, because I think it is important that all the stations should have the telephone in. There is no service in the State that is more urgently in need of having the telephone system installed or one in which it could be of more use than in the Gárda stations.
There is another matter that I want to ask the Minister about. I have previously spoken to him about this, but the answer he gave me was not quite clear to my mind. I want to ask him if he will state clearly the position of officers, non-commissioned officers and men in the Gárda Síochána who resigned from the police force before the Treaty was passed and who were afterwards appointed to positions in the Gárda Síochána. What is the position of these men as regards counting years of service pre-Truce for pension purposes, because it stands to reason that if their years of service for pension purposes are only to count from the time that they were reappointed in the police by the present Government, and if their pre-Truce service is not to be included in that, then I fear they will be very hoary-headed members of society before they become entitled to anything worth considering in the way of pensions. I think it is only right that there should be a definite understanding on this point. The answer given by the Minister to me does not make it quite clear how they stand, and the men themselves are in doubt about it. I should like the Minister to clear up this matter, if he will be good enough to do so when replying. I am not in favour of this Vote being referred back. I see no reason for doing so. To my mind there has been no case put forward by any of the eloquent speakers on the other side. I do not think that the time has yet arrived when the leopard will lie down with the lamb in this country, or when the wrongdoer will be so scrupulous that he will deliver himself up without the necessity of having any police officer to look after him. I do not think we have arrived at that stage, and until we do I think an efficient force is necessary. I hope no reduction will be made beyond what is absolutely necessary.