Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 31 May 1929

Vol. 30 No. 6

In Committee on Finance. - Estimates for Public Services. Vote No. 32—Gárda Síochána (Resumed).

The Dáil, according to order, resumed consideration of the Estimates for Public Services in Committee on Finance.

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £1,001,308 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith inioctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1930, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí an Ghárda Síochána (Uimh. 7 de 1925).

That a sum not exceeding £1,001,308 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1930, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Gárda Síochána (No. 7 of 1925).—Minister for Finance.

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

"That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration."—Deputy Ruttledge.

Mr. Lemass

In considering the administration of the Gárda Síochána, the first outstanding point that strikes the attention is the fact that there appears to be an excessive number of officers in relation to the actual number of Guards. I would be glad if the Minister, when dealing with this matter, would explain to us why it is necessary that we should have such a large proportion of superintendents to the number of Guards in the service. It seems to us, in the circumstances which exist in this country, the peculiar nature of the police problem, due to the widely scattered nature of the population, that although a number of sergeants and inspectors might be required in excess of the number which would be required for a more concentrated population, the number of superintendents should, in fact, be less in areas where the population is considerable. The attitude of the Ministry of Justice in building up the Civic Guard force appears to be largely identical with their attitude in building up other Government Departments. They are continuously making additions to the top, while, at the same time, decreasing the actual staff doing the work of the Department. We have been informed that recruitment for the Guards is stopped, and that consequently the number of Guards is likely to be diminished in a short period. The fact, therefore, that the number of superintendents and other high officers is to be maintained at the same strength during the coming year would seem to indicate that the Government does not anticipate any reduction of their number in consequence of the reduction in the number of Guards.

The Estimate shows a net decrease of a small amount. We are convinced that if the scheme of organisation were recast, and that if an effort were made to avail of modern mechanical devices in the utilisation of the Guards as a police force, a much more substantial decrease in the Estimate could be secured. It does not seem to me to be necessary that we should have four or five men stationed in practically every village. These men have very little to do except when there is a fair or a football match in their particular locality. For the rest of the time they are doing nothing. If, as has often been suggested here, the force were concentrated in larger numbers, in larger centres, with modern means of mechanical transport available, they would be able to do the policing of the entire country just as efficiently, if not more so, than it is done at present, with a considerable reduction of cost. Clergymen and others throughout the country have spoken to me about the danger which arises when these barracks exist in districts in which there is very little crime and very little need for the constant presence of the Guards. I do not mean the dangers which we discussed on the Minister's own Vote; but the fact has been brought to my notice that these barracks are often turned into what might be called local clubs, to which there is admission only for persons on friendly terms with the Guards. One priest in County Louth told me that he feared that the licensing laws were not being strictly enforced in his district, and he gave as his reason—I do not know whether it is true or not— that the local publicans were constantly playing cards in the barracks, and that consequently the Guards were hesitant in taking action against them. Whether that is true or not I do not know, but it seems to me, without having any accurate information to go on, that there is a possibility of such danger arising. This clergyman had a more extreme view than I possess. He maintained that the Guards were quite right in turning the barracks into a sort of club, and he insisted that they should be open to everybody, particularly to the poor and destitute, who, in winter especially, would be glad to go there and warm themselves before the fire.

Mr. Gorey

Some of them have extraordinary views.

Mr. Lemass

I agree that some of them have. Most of them are supporters of Cumann na nGaedheal.

Mr. Gorey

But they are all right.

Mr. Lemass

It is an old saying that Satan finds work for idle hands to do, and if we have in this country a large number of able-bodied young men, with only occasionally an adequate amount of work to do, it is only natural that they will disimprove as members of a trained force, and that the training which they got in the Depôt and the discipline instilled into them will be very largely lost, if they are left in what one of them described to me as a bog station with nothing to do all day but to watch the fields and the lanes round about. The police force is being at present maintained very largely, I think, on the system established by the R.I.C. The same division of the force is being maintained and very largely the same stations are being occupied. The fact that there has been a considerable improvement in transport facilities since then and the fact that the telephone is more widely available throughout the country would seem to suggest that we can effect an improvement by the concentration of the Guards in larger forces in centres in each county with an adequate supply of transport at their disposal, ready to go to any centre where their presence might be required, whether to police a fair, look after a football match or a sports meeting, or to deal with a riot in any part of the area, or for any other cause. The local Peace Commissioner or the ordinary citizen with a telephone in the district would only be too glad to notify the Guards in that central station if their presence was required in any district. They could get into that district just as fast, in the majority of cases, by modern systems of transport as they could at present get from the local barracks on their bicycles.

The number of Guards required for the country under a system of that kind would be much less, the cost of housing them would be less, the rent of the barracks would be less, and discipline would be much better, because it would be much more easy to maintain the morale of the force where they are in large numbers under the direct control of high officers who realise their responsibility. I put this view to the Minister in all seriousness. I think the present organisation of the force is very largely the result of the particular period in which it was established. At that particular time there was no opportunity to work out a new system, and consequently the Guards were constituted on the system which was then in existence and which had been established for R.I.C. purposes. The situation which existed before the Guards were established no longer exists, and there is an opportunity for the Government to review the whole system with a view to altering it. I suggest that it should be altered, and it could be altered with advantage to the Guards as well as to the taxpayers.

Mr. Shaw

I wish to join in paying a well-earned tribute to the Guards. They are a highly efficient, courteous and extremely popular force, a body of men that any country could and should be proud of, and, I submit, the country is proud of them. They are and always will be a living tribute to the memory of the late Minister for Justice, who was responsible for their establishment. I may say that there is no public demand for a reduction in their strength. I believe the public are prepared to pay for this service. Suggestions were made to shut down certain barracks in the counties which I represent, but no sooner was that made known than large numbers of respectable people, of all shades of opinion, came straight away to ask me to use my influence with the Minister for Justice to have these barracks retained. I hope that those barracks which it was intended to close will not be shut down, as the people are prepared to pay for this service. I see no reason whatever for referring back this Vote, and I hope the House will give a very substantial majority in rejecting that suggestion.

Mr. G. Wolfe

Before the debate concludes, I should like to say a few words of appreciation of the work of the Guards as I see it done. I think that there are very few responsible people of any class who will agree to a reduction in this Vote. The work the Guards do is widely appreciated, and their work, as most of us know, and gladly admit, is well done. Their duties are manifold. Their work is not solely to keep order, as in other countries. Many other duties are imposed on them and many duties have been added to their work since the force was formed. I am quite confident that these duties are carried out in a courteous and in an efficient way, and the people, as far as I can see, are perfectly satisfied with the work done. The number of police in this country is being compared with the number in England and in other countries. England is not comparable with this country at all. I know portions of England extremely well, especially portions of Yorkshire and Lancashire, and I know the conditions under which the police work there and what they have got to do.

I think Deputy Little and Deputy Lemass talked about the Guards spending their time kicking their heels about to warm themselves and doing nothing but sitting on the walls. If the Deputies went to England they would find that in every country village in which there are policemen, these men spend most of their time attending to their vegetable gardens. In these rural villages in England the police have nothing to do but attend to the ordinary work in a rural village. They have not to do school attendance work or the thousand and one things that the Guards in this country are expected and have to do. If Deputies visited some of these rural villages in England they would indeed say that the policemen stationed in them have plenty of time on their hands. Our Guards are not eight hour day men. They are 24 hour day men, and are liable to be called on at any hour of the day or night to give advice and attend to different matters that may arise. I must say that, as a rule, our Guards are of the greatest possible assistance to the people in the district in which they are placed. I think it was Deputy Little who deplored the want of education in the Guards. He thought that they should not be given the work of filling up statistics in connection with agriculture; that they had not education enough for that. Most of the Guards, or at least a very large number of them, are the sons of farmers. They are of an extremely good class, and I think that in the police force of any country you would not find a better class of men than are to be found in the Gárda Síochána.

With regard to their efficiency in preparing agricultural statistics, a Guard came to me on Friday last to get statistics in connection with my farming operations. I do a certain amount of mixed farming, and I understand something about it. The Guard took an hour to do the work he had to do, and understood the work thoroughly. I had to write out information for him. He was not content with anything but a very full statement in regard to my agricultural implements and matters of that kind. I had to give him the number of them, and in fact had to go out and have them counted for him. He was particular to that degree. He showed no signs of want of education. In fact it was very much the reverse, and I may say that he was very much all there. It took him very nearly an hour to do all the work he had to do at my place. If a Guard has to do that in the case of the majority of the people, then I do not think the Guards have very much spare time to kick their heels about on the walls in the way that Deputy Little drew a picture of. Deputy Little also said it was sad to see 40,000 young men applying to be taken into the Guards; that it showed a very deplorable state of affairs. Work such as the Guards are engaged on attracts Irishmen in every country where the English language is spoken. In many countries the police force is very largely manned by Irishmen. You have a large number of Irishmen in the police force in London, Liverpool and New York. Conversation with a policeman in any of these centres will soon reveal to you where he came from, and in fact the county he came from. It is a class of work that appeals to Irishmen. The outdoor life of a policeman, and association with high-class men, as the police mostly are, appeals to these young Irishmen.

I know from experience that many of the Guards have been in good positions, and I know that they have been willing to give up these positions in order to get into the Guards. Only last week two young men who are in very good positions in certain establishments in my county came to me and asked me to recommend them for entrance into the Gárda Síochána. I made inquiries about them, and found that they were everything that was desirable, and I gave them a recommendation; but, of course, as Deputies are aware, recruiting has stopped for the Gárda Síochána. That shows that it is not because young men are driven to it that they apply to get into the Gárda Síochána, but because they like the work, and because they think, amongst other things, that in joining the Guards they are doing a service to their country.

Deputy Lemass spoke in favour of reducing the number of Gárda stations in the country. In his opening statement, the Minister alluded to the fact that he had applications for stations to be re-opened in many places throughout the country. From my own knowledge, I can say that in certain lonely country districts there is a strong feeling that stations ought to be re-opened. The people in these districts want them re-opened, and are not backward in saying so. I have been approached on that matter, not so much by people residing in my own county, but by people on the borders of it, and who in a way may be considered almost to belong to it. It is perfectly certain, to my mind, that there is a strong feeling that there should be no reduction in the number of Gárda stations that are being maintained. Rather the feeling is that the number should be increased. There was a matter mentioned by the Minister to which I want to allude, and that is the extension of the telephone system to all Gárda stations, no matter how backward they are. In fact, the more backward they are the greater the necessity there is, to my mind, to have them connected up with the telephone system. I have noticed that on the main line in the south of the country there are certain Gárda stations that are not connected by telephone. They certainly ought to be. When these stations are called up, they have to depend on the good nature of their neighbours to have the messages sent to them. There is one station near me where that occurs. The Gárda stations have to be called up from time to time on many matters, and where they are not connected by telephone the Gárda have to depend on the good nature of their neighbours who have the telephone installed to have the messages delivered to them. This is a matter on which there should be no saving, because I think it is important that all the stations should have the telephone in. There is no service in the State that is more urgently in need of having the telephone system installed or one in which it could be of more use than in the Gárda stations.

There is another matter that I want to ask the Minister about. I have previously spoken to him about this, but the answer he gave me was not quite clear to my mind. I want to ask him if he will state clearly the position of officers, non-commissioned officers and men in the Gárda Síochána who resigned from the police force before the Treaty was passed and who were afterwards appointed to positions in the Gárda Síochána. What is the position of these men as regards counting years of service pre-Truce for pension purposes, because it stands to reason that if their years of service for pension purposes are only to count from the time that they were reappointed in the police by the present Government, and if their pre-Truce service is not to be included in that, then I fear they will be very hoary-headed members of society before they become entitled to anything worth considering in the way of pensions. I think it is only right that there should be a definite understanding on this point. The answer given by the Minister to me does not make it quite clear how they stand, and the men themselves are in doubt about it. I should like the Minister to clear up this matter, if he will be good enough to do so when replying. I am not in favour of this Vote being referred back. I see no reason for doing so. To my mind there has been no case put forward by any of the eloquent speakers on the other side. I do not think that the time has yet arrived when the leopard will lie down with the lamb in this country, or when the wrongdoer will be so scrupulous that he will deliver himself up without the necessity of having any police officer to look after him. I do not think we have arrived at that stage, and until we do I think an efficient force is necessary. I hope no reduction will be made beyond what is absolutely necessary.

Sir James Craig

I do not intend to support the amendment, because I think, on the whole, the Gárda do their work extremely well. I have personal experience of driving a motor car in the streets of Dublin for eighteen years, and I know the phases through which motor driving has passed. I say frankly that, as far as the general control of the traffic is concerned, the Gárda do it extremely well. There is cause for complaint, however, in the lack of control they have over the driving of buses. These buses have got beyond police control, particularly in the narrow congested roads. One of my friends followed a bus along the Booterstown road, and he found that it was travelling at the rate of forty-eight miles an hour. That is not an unusual rate of travelling along that congested road, and it is very dangerous to life and limb. There will be no improvement, I am afraid, until regulations have been drafted by the Local Government Department by which there will be a time-table in charge of the Guards, so that they will be able to stop bus traffic at any particular part and see by the time-table whether any of the buses have exceeded the speed limit. I think that fifteen miles an hour should be the limit along congested roads like the Booterstown road. The only way to have that regulation observed is by a time-table.

It is quite usual for two or three buses to start together on the quays and to race one another, passing and re-passing one another, trying to pick up passengers, with great danger to life and limb. There is no control over them, and no check upon the speed at which they travel. I was driving along Merrion Square, and when I came near a corner a bus shot in front of me where three people were standing on the footpath. I was placed in the position that I had to drive on top of the three people on the footpath or have the bus run against me, or else stop in the narrow space left me, which latter I managed to do. The bus drivers have no regard whatever for traffic. The only other point I want to lay particular stress on is that the buses pass outgoing traffic around curves and they have no knowledge of what is coming. Over and over again I have met a bus on the wrong side of the road passing another bus at a particular curve of the road where it was impossible to see what was happening.

Through the kindness of the bus owners' association, I have here the instructions given by the bus owners to their drivers. These regulations number something like twenty-one but in the great majority of cases I do not think the drivers are paying any attention at all to what the bus owners direct them to do. "Drivers are strictly warned of the dangers due to excessive speed, and their attention is drawn to the legal penalties they incur by breaches of the law in this connection." I give the Minister for Justice credit for the fact that he instituted no less than 3,000 prosecutions during the year, and obtained 2,800 convictions, but that has done practically nothing to stop reckless driving. "Drivers are warned that two or more buses must not be drawn up abreast at any point." That is happening every day. "Drivers are warned that when stopping to pick up or set down passengers they must pull in to the near side of the road." That regulation is very often ignored. Bus drivers take no notice of oncoming traffic. The greatest danger is constantly experienced by running into those buses that stop directly in front. Drivers are also directed that they "must bring their vehicles to rest in a position entirely clear of tramlines whenever possible."

Drivers are required to look after their lights. The other night on leaving the Dáil I was going along Merrion Square. The night was rather misty and a bus came along with one sidelight. I did not see it until it was nearly on top of me when I was crossing the street. "Drivers are held responsible for ensuring that the driving lights, two head, two side, and one tail, are functioning properly after lightingup time, and are strictly warned against the practice of dimming outside the Metropolitan area." The next important regulation is, "When the tram is stationary, it must not be overtaken on the near side, and it may be only overtaken on the off side if the driver of the bus has assured himself that traffic conditions permit this to be done with safety." Quite constantly these buses are passing on the off side, and they have no chance of seeing what traffic is approaching when they pass out from behind a tram, so that they are blinded as to what is coming. "Drivers must not pass any traffic going in the same direction unless they are perfectly satisfied that their action is consistent with safety." As I have said, not only do they pass the trams but they pass any sort of traffic at a curve around which it is impossible for them to see traffic coming in the opposite direction. "Stopping or overtaking on corners is strictly prohibited." I say that they are breaking that direction practically every day.

I also want to refer to the question of third-party insurance. People are being killed and families left destitute because buses are allowed on the road that are not insured against third-party risks. When a person is killed or injured by such a bus there is no redress whatever for the dependents of the person killed or for the person who is injured.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

That would require legislation.

Sir James Craig

The only way to get legislation is to call attention to the abuse. Another point is that there is practically no regulation of overcrowding, which is also a very great danger. On some buses I must admit overcrowding is not allowed, but at times some buses are so overcrowded that there is very grave danger. There is nothing done by the police by way of examining the engines and other parts of the buses to see whether they are efficient for service or not. I recognise the great convenience afforded to the people of the country by these buses, and I am not in any way against them, because they are the greatest God-send in those parts of the country which have no other means of transport. In addition to that, the competition of the buses has brought down the cost of travelling considerably. For that reason, if the buses were properly controlled, I would be heartily in favour of them. While the Guards are doing their work most efficiently in many ways with regard to the control of traffic, I must say that the bus drivers have got completely out of control, particularly on the Dalkey, Rathfarnham and Dollymount lines. On these lines there is the greatest possible danger to life and limb—to drivers of motors and to pedestrians. Whilst there has been a tremendous improvement in the regulation of motor traffic, sufficient attention has not been paid to the regulation of pedestrian traffic. Pedestrians are still allowed to straggle across the road at all points. In Dame Street and other main streets there is a constant stream of people crossing the traffic on the roads. That matter is not being attended to sufficiently. Another class of traffic that is not properly regulated is the bicycle traffic. Cyclists are allowed to cut in on the left and right side of motor cars, and when a motor car stops they are still allowed to get in front. That is a matter that requires attention.

I ask the Minister again to insist on a time-table being supplied by the bus owners by which the Guards will be able to tell the starting time of buses and the time at which they are to arrive at their destination, and that prosecutions should be instituted when necessary. Last year the Minister said that he had given instructions to the Guards that any bus driver that exceeded a speed of 25 miles per hour should be prosecuted. I can tell him that almost every bus is exceeding that limit in the most congested districts around Dublin, especially in the districts I mentioned. I hope the Minister will take steps to deal with this matter of the bus traffic, as there is very great danger to life at present arising from it.

Mr. Anthony

I am not supporting the amendment to refer back this Estimate. Whilst I am often in disagreement with the Minister's policy, in so far as administration is concerned, in my view, and in the view of the majority of people whom I represent, the Gárda are doing excellent and useful work. I believe that the force can compare very favourably with any police force in the world. As Deputies Craig and Wolfe have said, the force has attracted the best type of young men in the country. The Gárda are an enlightened and, largely, an educated body of young men. So far as their physical fitness is concerned, it is apparent to anybody that in that respect they satisfy all our requirements. It is, of course, necessary that the activities and work of the Gárda should be reviewed from year to year here, and that many questions should be raised on this Vote, but I suggest that we should not import into this Vote the whole question of administration. It has been suggested that the force is too large. Personally, I cannot see that. It has also been suggested that there are too many barracks. I do not see that either. I know that there is a demand in certain districts for extra barracks and that when it was mooted that two barracks in my district were to be amalgamated, a number of people came to me and asked me to press the Minister to review that decision. I did not go to the Minister, but awaited developments, and I find that these two barracks are there still, and it is a very good job for the district that they are.

Of course, there are a number of people in this country, just as in other countries, to whom a police force is anathema. There are operating in this country, as in other countries, people of a lawless disposition, who, before the institution of the Gárda, had a very fine time of it. We know that footpads, garrotters, and people like that who are apt to interfere with the liberty of the subject, do not want the Gárda here; but every peaceful and lawabiding citizen, and anybody who aims at progress and stability, is very pleased with the great success that the Gárda have made of the very nasty job that they got to do. Some Deputies have stressed the fact that a large number of young men in this country are anxious to get into the Gárda, and that there are no vacancies for them. I am sorry to say that that has been used, even by some Cumann na nGaedheal Deputies, as an argument why certain allowances should be taken from the Gárda. I suggest that the same thing might be said in connection with any industrial dispute. Such an argument is most unfair to those young men, who gave their services at a time when they were very badly required, and when some of the young men Deputies speak about were not so anxious to get into the Gárda. Now, when it is sought to reduce the allowances of the Gárda, it is held as a threat over their heads that some 40,000 young men want to be enlisted in the force. That argument has often been used in connection with industrial disputes. It has been said that there are thousands of unemployed willing to take the place of those locked-out or on strike. I make a present of that argument to those who talk about the reduction of the allowances to the Gárda, because of the fact that there are thirty or forty thousand young men waiting outside the gates for admission.

As citizens we very heartily appreciate the work that the Gárda has done. Let us throw our minds back to a few years ago when there was nothing but chaos and turmoil in the cities and let us compare it with the present, when we find ourselves in the proud position that we are one of the most peaceful States in the world, notwithstanding that within the last year or two there have been acts done here which are not very creditable to the metropolis. But so far as the whole of the State is concerned it is different. The city of Cork, for example, is one of the most peaceable cities in Europe, and the same might be said of other cities in the State. I suggest that were it not for the activities of the Gárda I would not be standing here to-day, and very few of us would be here to-day. Though it may be slightly out of order to touch on the matter now, I should like to say that I deprecate very much any undue interference with the emoluments of the Gárda Síochána. While saying that I desire to say also that I believe that, as this is a new State, our Gárda are adequately remunerated, but at the same time I feel that at the earliest opportunity the allowance taken from them should be given back to them.

I think it was Deputy Ruttledge or some other member of the Fianna Fáil Party that drew a comparison with New Zealand and some other British Dominion. There is no comparison between New Zealand or Canada or Australia, or even South Africa, and this State. These countries have a tradition of peace and ordered conditions. It has been suggested that because they can do with less police per head of the population in New Zealand that we should do with a lesser number or that we should have a relatively lesser number. Here again I join issue with Deputy Ruttledge or any other member of the Dáil, whether he belongs to the Fianna Fáil or Cumann na nGaedheal Party. We must remember, as I have said, that the Dominions have a tradition of peaceable and ordered conditions. We have not had that for the last twenty years. We have had a succession of troubles; we had the agrarian trouble, and we only recently emerged from a revolutionary period, and surely no Deputy in any Party in the House can tell me that there is a comparison between this country, so far as the policing of it is concerned, and New Zealand.

I am glad to learn and to mark that there is a growing sense of security in this country. Coincident with that is a growing respect for law and for authority whether parental or the authority of the long arm of the law. We do know and must confess that for many years back in this country there was an entire disregard of law of any kind. There might be something to be said for that when it was British-made law, but there is nothing to be said for it when it is Irish-made law. This is the place to change the law, if anyone wants it changed; I suggest he is no good citizen who deliberately flouts the law, and from time to time in this House gives encouragement to people outside to disrespect the law as represented by the Gárda Síochána. I am glad to be able to say there is a growing respect for law in this country, and that is largely due to the way the law is being administered by the Gárda Síochána. As I said, not only was there disregard of the law as represented by the police force long before we had the Gárda Síochána, but there was disregard for parental authority. Any Deputy who has had any experience in the country will bear me out when I say that. There was disregard even for old age and for every class of authority in this country, and when we have our own police force, even though it is an Irish police force, we should give them every help and co-operation we possibly can. But when we got our police force what happened? A section of the community instead of co-operating with and helping the Gárda did everything they could to thwart their efforts and activities. I believe the Gárda should be above any political influence. They are not the child of any political party in this House. They are servants of the State and as such I am very glad to say that the Gárda of this country can be compared with any police force in the world. Having said that I want to suggest that while it is only right and proper that the activities of the Gárda should be brought into review from year to year we should entirely separate this Vote from the vote of policy as represented by the Minister for Justice.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are doing that.

Mr. Anthony

While supporting this present Vote I am not identifying myself with the whole policy of the Minister. I am glad to know that there is a growing civic spirit in this country and I can visualise the time when we may be able to emulate the action of the citizens of other countries where, when a member of the police force is in trouble, whether in arresting a pickpocket or a thief or an assassin, he will have the full and hearty co-operation of the citizens. That is the only contribution I wish to make to this discussion. I hope that in this and in future discussions of this Vote we will keep it distinct from the Vote so far as policy is concerned.

Mr. Kent

I consider I would not be doing my duty to my constituents if I did not protest against this enormous Estimate for the policing of the country. I fully realise we cannot do without a police force, and that a police force is a necessary evil in any country, but I consider that the numbers of the Gárda could be considerably reduced in rural areas. Deputy Sir James Craig made a complaint here as regards the regulation of motor traffic in the City of Dublin. We have no such complaint to make in the rural areas. The Guards are admirable in that respect. The traffic there is rather slow motion traffic and they have very little to do in that respect in those areas except to control the traffic of goats and donkeys. I do not suggest that the reduction in the Gárda should lead to unemployment. There are many ways and means of finding suitable employment for those young men. I suggest that those young men should be sent back to the land again and by the cultivation of the land they would be doing more for the peace and good order of the country by producing abundance of food for the unemployed and starving people of the cities and the towns than they are doing at present.

If that were done the poor people and the taxpayers would shed tears of gratitude, as it would be the first step towards relieving them from the enormous burden of taxation that they are groaning under. I have nothing against the Guards; I hear no complaints, and I have no complaints to make against them. From the fiery speech made by a Minister last week and the taunts and accusations levelled at Deputies on these benches, farmers could only come to the conclusion that there are a lot of criminals and assassins in the country. I say without fear of contradiction that this is one of the most crimeless countries in the world. There may have been a few dastardly crimes committed in the city of Dublin recently. Otherwise, where is there any crime in the portion of Ireland in which we live? The Minister for Justice is more to be pitied than blamed because he has hopeless and helpless machinery behind him, that could not track down the assassins of the late Kevin O'Higgins, or of the unfortunate juryman who was shot in Dublin. It seems to me that it could not apprehend a blind jackass wandering through the streets of Dublin. The healthiest of our race are leaving the country at an alarming rate and, in a few years, there will be no necessity for a police force, because the only people left will be the old and infirm. The land will then have become a barren and trackless waste, unless the Government does something for the relief of the taxpayers.

The farmers, I maintain, are the principal taxpayers. Unfortunately, it is very hard to get them to realise that, or to get them to do anything in their own interests. The farmers should be the Government of the country, instead of the Government we have at present. When farmers were organised to a certain degree some of them took the opportunity to desert the ranks. I must say that Deputy Heffernan set a good example in that respect, when he turned his back on the Farmers' Party and joined the ranks of the wire-pullers. Perhaps it is more profitable to be amongst the ranks of the wire-pullers than to be looking after the interests of the unfortunate farmers. Perhaps I am wandering away from the guardians of peace and order. The peace of the country was never as secure as it is at present.

Mr. Shaw

Thanks to the Guards.

Mr. Kent

Thanks to the peaceful citizens. In the rural areas the people know how to conduct themselves. Our policy is to keep peace in the country, and to use every constitutional means in our power to clear out this Government bag and baggage at the next election, because they have brought nothing but destruction and ruin. We will then have some peace, and there will be no necessity for half the police force. As regards sending those who are now in the police force back to till the land, no better argument in support of that suggestion could be made than that put forward by Deputy Wolfe.

Mr. Hogan (Minister)

To till whose land?

Mr. Kent

The Guards must be practical farmers when they want to give instructions, as Deputy Wolfe explained. I think if the Guards were used for that work it would be more advantageous for the community.

Mr. Wolfe

On a point of explanation. My name has been mentioned. The Guards were accused in a previous speech of Deputy Ruttledge of being inefficient, and I endeavoured to show from my experience that they were not——

Mr. Flinn

They were not what?

Mr. Wolfe

Wanting in education.

Mr. Kent

As far as I understood the Deputy he invited this Guard out to instruct him in farming.

Mr. Wolfe

May I say that the Guard came to me and asked for certain statistics, which I endeavoured to give him, and it took a considerable time to do so.

Mr. Kent

At any rate the majority of the Guards would be usefully employed in the cultivation of the land.

Mr. Hogan (Minister)

Whose land?

Mr. Kent

The untenanted land, if you wish to give it to them.

An Ceann Comhairle

Now we are getting away from the question altogether.

Mr. Kent

I am sorry. I support the amendment proposed by Deputy Ruttledge to send this Vote back for reconsideration. I am absolutely certain that if it went back for reconsideration it could be considerably reduced, and thus relieve the burden on the farmers. When we keep a police force I maintain that we should give them decent salaries, and not be taking away their boots and their bicycles. I hope the day will come when we will have the wheels of industry humming and the click of the knitting needles in the hands of the fair sex. Then we will be able to give the guards back, not only their boots and their bicycles, but also supply them with socks.

Mr. T. Murphy

Deputy Anthony has expressed the view we hold in connection with this Vote, and with the amendment. While we decided to take that course, I think we would be very strongly tempted to vote for referring back the Vote from an entirely different reason from that which animated the Deputy who put down the amendment. If it is not out of order I would like to re-echo what Deputy Anthony said with reference to the policy of the Minister. It is very pleasant to hear tributes in the House to the work of the force. They are well deserved. But the members of the force who have had to put up with a worsening of their condition, are not at all sure that there is any genuine ring about the tributes paid to them. At any rate the results do not bear that out, and I would stress what Deputy Anthony said in pressing the Minister for an assurance that in the near future the whole policy recently decided upon by the Ministry in this connection will be reviewed.

I think it is not overstating the position to say that the Guards have won a place in the hearts of the people by the manner in which they do their work. The best tribute to their impartiality is the fact that in a comparatively short time, at the end of serious trouble, any hostility to them that existed, by reason of the circumstances that obtained at the time the force was established, has died out, and that even criticism is lacking in force and is evidently only believed in, by the people who make it, in a halfhearted way.

I think it is all to the good and that it certainly is proper that the work of the police force should be examined, but I think there is no substance whatever in the suggestion that there should be a wholesale reduction in the force. For instance, I cannot see the point in Deputy Kent's suggestion that all the Guards should be converted into agricultural instructors. They would probably be expecting pay for that work, and Deputy Kent would be one of the first to complain of the burden put on the taxpayers in this already official-ridden country. I think that Deputy Wolfe made a good point in connection with the extension of the telephone service, and the Minister ought not to permit this Estimate to come up again without having that position remedied. It is true that in recent years there has been a reckless disregard for human life on the part of motor drivers, and it is not unknown for people to drive motor cars, not alone on country roads but through towns and villages, when heavily under the influence of drink. If accidents occur, and there is no proper line of communication between Gárda barracks, it is very difficult for the police to take proper action. I know of a recent case where a police officer had very great trouble in tracking down a particular offender in that respect. I think that the Guards should get all the facilities that the Department can put at their disposal for doing their work efficiently and thoroughly.

Turning to the point that the country can be policed well with a smaller force, that is a matter with which I do not agree at all. I have heard the argument advanced time and again that during a certain comparatively recent period in our history two or three men in each district, constituting what was known as a police force kept order. Now, I think the least said about the circumstances that obtained at that time the better. Many of us know the way in which order was kept, many of us know the methods that were adopted in keeping order, and if we had one-tenth of the disregard for public opinion at the present moment that we had then, the absolute brutality with which people were treated, to say nothing of the fact that blackmail was systematically levied off a number of people during that regime, if we had the smallest approach in the present force to conditions of that kind, we would have a continuous sitting here from January to December discussing it.

I am anxious to have a statement from the Minister as to whether he is still determined to persist in a policy which, in my opinion, is neither good for the Guards nor good for the people. I trust that he will bear in mind the very proper suggestions that have been made by Deputy Wolfe for an extension of the facilities for the Guards for the proper execution of their duty.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney)

A great deal of the criticism which has been passed upon the Guards to-day as regards their number and other matters is precisely the same criticism which was passed on them by the same Deputies a very short time ago. Figures were given refuting the statements then made by Deputies, but it appears that the figures had no effect upon them, because we find exactly the same statements being made now as were made about six months ago, when this Estimate was last under discussion. Deputy Ruttledge did say something new; and with what was new in this debate I will deal first, rather than with the figures and the arguments put forward before and refuted before, and which entail on my part the repetition of the last speech I made upon this subject.

Deputy Ruttledge started off by stating that there were five Commissioners in the Guards. There is one Commissioner, two Assistant Commissioners, and two other Commissioners. He stated that each one of these had a chief superintendent as his private secretary. I would like to know where he got that information from; by what flight of imagination he managed to arrive at that conclusion. The facts are that the Commissioner has a private secretary who is not a chief superintendent, but an ordinary superintendent, and the others have no private secretaries at all. Where the Deputy got that information from I am certainly at a loss to know; but, whatever the source of information he may have, it is a source of the most inaccurate information.

References have been made by Deputy Anthony and by Deputy Murphy to the reduction in the allowances made to the Guards. That matter was fully discussed on a motion brought forward by Deputy Corish recently, and I do not purpose again to go into the arguments which lead us to conclude that that was a proper course to take. But when I find Deputy Ruttledge now breaking in with criticism I must own that I am more than a little astonished. It shows a willingness to make any sort of criticism of the Government on the part of Fianna Fáil that may come into their heads. Let them criticise rightly or wrongly, logically or illogically, consistently or inconsistently, it does not matter. "Let us criticise. Let us find fault." That is the function of an Opposition, they seem to think, whether it is logical or illogical, whether it is consistent or whether it is inconsistent. Now, just listen to Deputy Ruttledge's remarks on the cutting down of the Guards' allowances:

When the Minister seeks to make economies, and when the Department tries to effect some economies, they tackle it in a method not approved of by this side of the House. They tackle it by what we say is a rather mean method. They attack the allowances. When these men joined the force the Minister of the time was satisfied that the allowances were only commensurate with the positions they occupied. The Minister, this year, in a wild drive to secure economies, was supposed to take the boots off the Gárda. We all had experience of the Gárda prosecuting unfortunate people all over the country for not keeping shoes on the donkeys. The Minister thinks he can take the shoes off the Gárda, and also deprive them of some of their cycling allowance as a means of effecting economy. I suppose we on this side of the House should be glad that something is being done to bring things down to a proper level, but we do not think it is a genuine effort at or a decent means of effecting economy to act in this way.

That is Deputy Ruttledge's speech. Now, let us consider Deputy Ruttledge's actions. Deputy Ruttledge thinks that this is a mean method, and it is a method not approved of by Deputies on that side of the House. Then, I fling my memory back, not for a very long period, but to a vote that was given, not only by the Fianna Fáil Party, but by Deputy Ruttledge himself, when he and they voted for that reduction.

Mr. Ruttledge

When the Minister goes back to that vote, would he examine the statement that was made by the leader of the Opposition explaining the reasons why our Party was voting in that way?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

It was a method which had not the approval of that side of the House. That is what Deputy Ruttledge told us, and because it had not the approval of that side of the House, that side of the House voted for it. That is the new method. We had it very recently, when Deputy de Valera stated that he approved of an amendment of Deputy O'Connell's but was going to vote against it. Now, we have another example, when the Fianna Fáil Party disapproves entirely of the cutting down of these allowances. It had not their approbation. They thought it a mean, low-down thing and yet both walked into the division lobby in order that they might vote for what they thought was wrong and what they thought was mean. I do not know whether, when Deputy Ruttledge was speaking here, he was giving utterance to his real opinion or whether, when he was voting here, he was giving utterance to his real opinion. Certainly there is no reconciling Deputy Ruttledge's vote with his speech. Since Deputy Ruttledge's speech or no speech could have the same effect in this House as a vote it certainly appears to me that Deputy Ruttledge's vote must have been the expression of his honest opinion, and in connection with this criticism, which is passed now by a member of a party which is the last party in this House that can fairly or honourably bring forward a criticism of that kind, I say it shows the absolute worthlessness of any criticism coming from these benches.

Mr. Ruttledge

I would ask the Minister if he would mind reading the speech made by the leader of the Opposition explaining the grounds on which we voted.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

The grounds given were that he considered the Guards adequately paid without allowances. In the opinion of the country he said the Guards were adequately paid without allowances, and he gave his vote for the cutting down of those allowances. Deputy Ruttledge gave his vote for the cutting down of these allowances, and now to come here and say that that was a wrong economy, and that it had not the approval of their side of the House, certainly appears to me to be the most cynical procedure that to my mind could be adopted. To my mind it is not a straightforward procedure, and no explanation could make it straightforward on the part of the Deputy or his party. Deputy Ruttledge again declared that there was substantially no reduction in the number of the force from the times of the R.I.C. I gave him those figures last year. I showed him what a very considerable reduction had been made. If he looks up the debate he will find those figures, but I suppose if I repeat the figures to him now it will be exactly the same next year. He will come along when the next Estimates are being introduced and will repeat precisely the same statement, no matter how it may be refuted.

Deputy Lemass also makes a statement that there are too many superintendents. He does not give us the reason why he thinks that there are too many superintendents. He gives us no idea of the reason which caused him to come to the conclusion that there were too many superintendents. He states: "In my opinion 126 superintendents are a great deal too many for this country." As to whether he ever inquired into the work superintendents have to do, or anything of the kind, he does not tell us. How the numbers could be reduced he does not tell us. He is simply satisfied in giving his conclusion. Possibly he is right. I am sure he is right.

Mr. Lemass

So am I.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

It is much better to give conclusions when you do not know much about the matter you are arguing, and I am sure he was wise in giving his conclusions and not giving us the grounds on which he reached those conclusions. Deputy Lemass can be very astute on occasions, but I may inform him that if he makes a comparison there are now 126 superintendents in the Free State when there were 163 in the time of the Royal Irish Constabulary. That is a very big reduction, indeed. He could have got those figures out of last year's report also. As I say, Deputies do not seem to mind those things. They simply return to the charge. I suppose we will hear the same from Deputy Lemass next year. In addition to that, in the days of the Royal Irish Constabulary there were a considerable number of head constables who were of the greatest assistance and took a great deal of labour off the shoulders of the district inspector. Now there are no head constables.

Deputy Lemass stated that a clergyman in Louth told him that the Guards were keeping their barracks as a sort of club into which the local publicans entered, and in the opinion of that clergyman—Deputy Lemass did not endorse or express the view himself—the licensing laws were not being properly enforced. If Deputy Lemass would tell me the name of the barracks in which this is supposed to happen, or the name of his informant, that matter could be probed, but I do think it rather strange if the clergyman sees an abuse, an open and patent abuse according to him, in his parish that, instead of communicating with any officers of the Guards or with my Department, or with anybody who would be in a position to inquire into that matter, he takes simply the line of informing Deputy Lemass with, I suppose, the hope that Deputy Lemass will bring it up in this House and that there may be something in it by which a certain amount of extra mud can be slung at the Guards. He talked about able bodied, idle young men and about Satan finding work for idle hands to do. The Guards are not an idle body of men. They have heavy and onerous duties to perform. They have the policing of this country to do first of all and that is a very difficult business. They have a great number of laws to enforce and in addition to the work they have to do in policing this country, they have also a vast amount of non-constabulary work to do.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle took the Chair.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I have told the House before, and I think the House fully appreciates it, the amount of work that they have to do. They look after school attendance and agricultural statistics. Here let me stop for a moment. Deputy Wolfe has already stated that he, from practical experience, could say that the taking of agricultural statistics is very well done. Deputy Little declared it was not well done; that the Guards are not educated enough to do it. What is Deputy Little's authority for that statement? Surely the persons who ought to know if the statistics are being carefully, accurately, and properly taken are the Department of Agriculture? Has there even been a complaint from the Department of Agriculture? Never. The Department of Agriculture, on the contrary, have expressed their views that the agricultural statistics are very carefully and very well compiled.

Mr. Lemass

May I inform the Minister that I have heard the Minister for Agriculture saying that the statistics are not worth the paper they are printed on?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

He has never said that the statistics compiled by the Guards are not carefully and accurately compiled. I know he did state that statistics are very dangerous things for certain persons to handle. He did state, if Deputy Lemass and other persons of his party did not give all the attention that they do give to statistics, they would not land themselves in the morasses in which they do land themselves. I have heard the Minister for Agriculture say that, and I concur with the Minister for Agriculture. But I never heard him say that the Guards were inefficient in the collection of agricultural statistics. There are a very considerable number of other duties which it is necessary for the Guards to perform. I have already told them to the House, and I am not going to enumerate them again. A very considerable amount of the Guards' time is taken up in the performance of these duties.

Deputy Kent suggested that the Guards should be reduced to a very large extent; that they should be given holdings on untenanted land. There is no intention of reducing the Guards to any very large extent, or of dismissing any serving Guards at the present moment. But I will pass on Deputy Kent's suggestion to the Minister for Defence. I know that the Minister for Defence will be very glad to know that it is the opinion of the Fianna Fáil Party that soldiers who are now disbanded should be given farms of land in preference to any other persons. I do not know whether Deputy Kent is completely at one with Deputy Lemass in that, or whether Deputy Lemass is going to disown him. But I will pass on the suggestion as being the view of certain men of the party opposite.

On the question of the shutting down of barracks, it is perfectly accurate, as Deputy Shaw and Deputy Anthony stated, that we have contemplated the shutting down of barracks. Without exception the local inhabitants have been, so to speak, up in arms. Petition after petition has come in asking: "For goodness sake do not shut down our barracks."

Mr. S.T. O'Kelly

From the local publicans.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Not from the local publicans, but from the local priests and other people of importance, and from the ordinary working farmer. Heavily signed petitions are regularly coming in, and I am sure they are signed by supporters of Deputy O'Kelly's party. I know that amongst the supporters of that party there are persons who do not wish to have pilferings or crimes going on.

Mr. Lemass

That is a very serious admission.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

It may be, but there are. I make that statement gladly and joyfully.

Mr. Lemass

You will have the Minister for Agriculture contradicting that.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I hope some time it will spread up from the lowest to the very highest. No definite decision has yet been taken on the closing of any barrack. The matter is simply in contemplation. There may be some barracks closed because, as I have pointed out, at the end of the year the force will be reduced by 200 men. That may necessitate the closing of some barracks, but as to what barracks, if any, have to be closed, no decision has yet been arrived at. It was pointed out, of course, on the other hand, by Deputy Lemass that there are lonely country districts, and that in lonely country districts there should not be barracks. That is an argument which I cannot follow. It seems to me that if you have a lonely country district and a large tract of country which is unpoliced, that that is a beautiful gathering ground for criminals and that the lonely parts of the country are parts that want to be very carefully watched.

I have already stated that we are installing a very considerable number of telephones in the country. Out of our 840 stations, there are telephones in 600. In my opening statement I pointed out that there was a certain extra cost this year for installing telephones. I believe greatly in the use of telephones for Guards. It prevents criminals escaping; it enables Guards to keep in close touch with each other in defeating crime, and it saves a great deal of travelling from station to station. But that everything should be done by telephone, as Deputy Lemass suggests, and that you should have three or four barracks to a county, simply shows a complete ignorance of Irish country life. We know that Deputy Lemass represents a city constituency. He is essentially a city man, and has the mind of a city man. He does not know the first thing about country life or country conditions. If some turf is being stolen, or some hay is being stolen, if eggs are being pilfered or someone is assaulted— all the ordinary minor offences which people want to report to the police—of course, people want a police barracks in their neighbourhood in order to make reports.

Deputy Lemass said that thing could be done on the telephone. If someone is assaulted, and he wants to make a complaint to the Guards about it, he may have some miles to walk, but his barracks is reasonably within his district. He can go there and make his complaint. Deputy Lemass's idea is that there should be a barracks perhaps twenty miles away, and that he could go to his telephone and ring up the barracks and make his complaint. That might be sensible enough in a big city, though it would not work even there. But how on earth could it work in a country district where there are no telephones. If some farmer wants to complain to the Guards he would have to go to a Guards' barracks before he would reach a telephone. Deputy Lemass's ideas that the country is precisely the same as Dublin, and what is possible and feasible in Dublin is possible and feasible for persons living in a country district, are completely hopeless. That is all I have to say about it.

Deputy Wolfe asked a question as to the pensions of ex-members of the R.I.C. who are serving in the Gárda. Previous service in the R.I.C. is not reckoned at all for calculating pensions in the Gárda, but members of the R.I.C. who were disbanded, and who got pensions and are now serving in the Gárda, while serving in the Gárda do not receive pensions. The pensions remain in abeyance while they are in the Gárda, but when they leave the Gárda their pensions are resurrected. Practically the same thing happens in the case of persons dismissed from the Gárda and who have got special pensions under the Act which was passed for the giving of pensions to dismissed and resigned R.I.C. men. If they are serving in the Gárda, their pensions also remain in abeyance during the time they are serving in the Gárda, but when they go out on pension from the Gárda the pensions are resurrected.

Mr. Briscoe

They are entitled to two pensions subsequently?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Yes.

Mr. O'Kelly

Will the Minister tell us to how many officers and men in the Gárda those conditions apply?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I could not give the Deputy that information now. I would require notice of that question. I cannot carry all these figures about with me. There is just one other point which Deputy Sir James Craig mentioned. That was about motor buses and motor transport generally. Of course, as to third-party insurance being necessary and speed limits being necessary, all I have to say is that these matters would require legislation, and it is not a matter with which the Gárda can now deal at all. As the Deputy is aware, a report was published recently which deals with this question. In that report certain recommendations were put forward on the question of third-party insurance. As the Deputy will find if he reads the report carefully, that is not by any means as simple a question as it might appear. As far as the speed limit and the examples which the Deputy gave of reckless driving are concerned, I can only say that of course if the Gárda find buses going at an excessive limit, or if they are driven recklessly, then they prosecute. There has been a large number of prosecutions. I think the Gárda are doing all that can be humanly expected of them in bringing prosecutions for these offences. If the prosecutions that they bring are not deterrents then that would probably be because the fines are not large enough. I do not, however, think that the Gárda could be expected to detect more cases than they have actually detected and in which they are bringing prosecutions. Deputy Sir James Craig read out orders which are given by the bus companies to the drivers of their buses. Some of those are not legally enforceable. The driver might disregard them and yet might not be driving to the danger of the public. I agree with Deputy Sir James Craig that a very considerable number of the drivers of motor buses do not regard these instructions. These instructions are regarded by a certain number, at any rate, of the drivers of buses as really so much window-dressing, or something which enables the owners of the buses to say, "here are our regulations," but they do not actually carry out those regulations. I believe there is a considerable amount of that. I know that the Gárda are watching the motor buses as carefully as they can.

Mr. J.X. Murphy

I would like to put this question to the Minister: In dealing with road traffic some time ago he told me, in answer to a question, that it was proposed to introduce legislation to deal with the recommendations in the Report recently issued on Road Transport. Can the Minister give us any idea when that legislation will be introduced?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

In this matter I am really outside my own Department. This is really a matter for the Department of Local Government and Public Health. That is the Department which deals with the matter of road regulations. I just want to say again that the Guards are not in fault in these matters raised by Deputy Sir James Craig. The Guards are really doing their level best. I think that is the only question which really arises on this Estimate.

Sir James Craig

I would like the Minister to instruct the Guards that if they are doing their level best now they should try to do a great deal more. I do not think anybody listening to me will deny that bus competition is followed by furious driving, with the greatest danger to all possible traffic on the road. I make that statement very deliberately.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

The Guards are doing everything they possibly can to check that. It is not very easy to get detections in all cases. The Guards are doing their very best. They have strict instructions, and they have brought a very large number of prosecutions indeed.

Sir James Craig

They should bring more.

Mr. Briscoe

Will the Minister state if it is the duty of the Guards to check the registration of buses owned by bus companies operating in the territory of the Saorstát? I understand there is an arrangement between the Northern and the Free State Governments whereby Northern-owned bus companies running buses in the Saorstát agree to register half the buses in the Northern area and the other half in the Saorstát. I am told also that the Customs officials have no power, if they do notice that a particular bus company might have nine out of ten buses registered in the North and only one registered in the Saorstát, to restrict the traffic of the buses in the Saorstát. I would like to know if the Guards have the power to enforce the provisions of the agreement so that the bus companies would register fifty-fifty.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

An agreement between whom?

Mr. Briscoe

Between the Northern Government and the Saorstát Government.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

There is no breach of the law. If a person brings a bus from Northern Ireland into the Saorstát there is no infringement of the law and all the Guards can look after is an infringement of the law; that is the business of the Guards. Any other question as to Customs or anything of that kind is done by the Customs officials.

Mr. Briscoe

Is there no means of enforcing the agreement under which bus companies outside the Saorstát, but actually operating in the Saorstát, shall register their vehicles, half in Northern Ireland and half in the Saorstát?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

As far as agreements are entered into, it does not concern my Department, and I suggest that the Deputy should put questions on that matter to the Minister really concerned.

Amendment put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 42; Níl, 80.

Tá

• Aiken, Frank.
• Blaney, Neal.
• Boland, Patrick.
• Bourke, Daniel.
• Briscoe, Robert.
• Buckley, Daniel.
• Carney, Frank.
• Colbert, James.
• Cooney, Eamon.
• Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
• Crowley, Tadhg.
• Fahy, Frank.
• Flinn, Hugo.
• Fogarty, Andrew.
• French, Seán.
• Gorry, Patrick J.
• Goulding, John.
• Hayes, Seán.
• Houlihan, Patrick.
• Jordan, Stephen.
• Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
• Kent, William R.
• Kerlin, Frank.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Kilroy, Michael.
• Lemass, Seán F.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• MacEntee, Seán.
• Moore, Séamus.
• Mullins, Thomas.
• O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
• O'Kelly, Seán T.
• O'Leary, William.
• O'Reilly, Matthew.
• O'Reilly, Thomas.
• Powell, Thomas P.
• Ruttledge, Patrick J.
• Ryan, James.
• Sexton, Martin.
• Tubridy, John.
• Walsh, Richard.
• Ward, Francis C.

Níl

• Aird, William P.
• Alton, Ernest Henry.
• Anthony, Richard.
• Beckett, James Walter.
• Bennett, George Cecil.
• Blythe, Ernest.
• Bourke, Séamus A.
• Brennan, Michael.
• Broderick, Henry.
• Brodrick, Seán.
• Byrne, John Joseph.
• Carey, Edmund.
• Cassidy, Archie J.
• Coburn, James.
• Cole, John James.
• Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
• Colohan, Hugh.
• Conlon, Martin.
• Connolly, Michael P.
• Corish, Richard.
• Cosgrave, William T.
• Craig, Sir James.
• Jordan, Michael.
• Kelly, Patrick Michael.
• Keogh, Myles.
• Law, Hugh Alexander.
• Leonard, Patrick.
• Lynch, Finian.
• Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
• McDonogh, Martin.
• McFadden, Michael Og.
• McGilligan, Patrick.
• Mongan, Joseph W.
• Mulcahy, Richard.
• Murphy, James E.
• Murphy, Joseph Xavier.
• Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
• Myles, James Sproule.
• Nally, Martin Michael.
• Nolan, John Thomas.
• Daly, John.
• Davis, Michael.
• De Loughrey, Peter.
• Doherty, Eugene.
• Dolan, James N.
• Doyle, Edward.
• Doyle, Peadar Seán.
• Duggan, Edmund John.
• Dwyer, James.
• Egan, Barry M.
• Esmonde, Osmond Thos. Grattan.
• Everett, James.
• Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
• Good, John.
• Gorey, Denis J.
• Haslett, Alexander.
• Hassett, John J.
• Heffernan, Michael R.
• Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
• Henry, Mark.
• Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
• Holohan, Richard.
• O'Connell, Richard.
• O'Connell, Thomas J.
• O'Connor, Bartholomew.
• O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
• O'Hanlon, John F.
• O'Higgins, Thomas.
• O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
• O'Reilly, John J.
• O'Sullivan, Gearoid.
• O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
• Rice, Vincent.
• Shaw, Patrick W.
• Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
• Thrift, William Edward.
• Tierney, Michael.
• Vaughan, Daniel.
• White, Vincent Joseph.
• Wolfe, George.

Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Briscoe and Flinn; Níl: Deputies Duggan and P. S. Doyle.

Amendment declared lost.

Vote put and agreed to.