Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 4 Jul 1929

Vol. 31 No. 2

In Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate—Repayment of Dáil Loan Subscriptions (Sligo).

Mr. Carty

I gave notice that I would raise, on the motion for the adjournment this evening, the matter arising out of Question No. 1 on the Order Paper. The question was as follows—

"To ask the Minister for Finance if he will state the number of persons in South Sligo who have received refunds of their subscriptions to the Dáil Loan (Internal), 1919-20; the number of claims remaining to be dealt with, and if he will state when Savings Certificates will be issued to the remaining subscribers."

The Minister for Finance, in his reply, stated: "I would refer the Deputy to the reply given to a similar question asked by him on the 17th April last."

The reply given by the Minister on the 17th April was that the form in which the records of the Department are kept is such that the preparation of the information asked for in the Deputy's question would entail an amount of labour on the part of the staff concerned, which would not, in his opinion, be justified, and, further, that applications which have not yet been disposed of will be dealt with as expeditiously as circumstances permit.

Now, I do not consider the reply given by the Minister regarding this important matter, which affects thousands of subscribers, as either complete or satisfactory. I do not consider it complete, because he has refused to give information as to the number of persons, if any, who have received a refund of their subscriptions, and the number of claims remaining to be dealt with; I do not regard his answer as satisfactory because he has failed to indicate any definite date when Savings Certificates will be issued to the remaining subscribers.

Surely the Minister does not maintain that the records in his Department are kept in such loose fashion that he is unable, at any time, to state the number of subscribers from a particular area who have received refunds of their subscriptions. There is no reason, at least, why this information should not be given. It could scarcely entail so much additional labour on the staff concerned as not to be justified. Perhaps it may be more correct to state that his refusal to give this information arises from the fact that so far no subscriber in South Sligo has received a refund, or because the number of those who have received repayment is so very small that the Minister is ashamed to give it. At any rate, we can only conclude, in the absence of more definite information, that such is the case, and that the Minister, for good reasons of his own, does not wish this House to know the ridiculously small number of persons in this area who have received a refund of their subscriptions.

It is now nine years since this Loan was raised. It is almost five years since the Dáil Eireann Loans and Funds Act, which gave the Minister power to issue Savings Certificates to subscribers, became law. Ample time, it must be admitted, has been given to the Minister to deal with all the outstanding claims.

The Minister, speaking in this House on the 22nd June last year (page 1303 of Official Report), stated: "I am confident that by the end of the present financial year repayment will have been authorised in all cases in which particulars of the subscriptions are recorded in my Department, and applications have been made for repayment; and also in cases in which, though the particulars were not recorded, satisfactory evidence in support of the claim has been submitted to the Department of Finance."

Now, in the particular area to which my Question refers over £3,700 was subscribed towards the Dáil Loan. From every parish authenticated lists of subscribers have been furnished to the Department. Individual applications have also been made by almost every subscriber, and these individual applications have in most cases been vouched for by the collectors in writing. During the last two years I forwarded to the Department several lists of subscribers from various parishes all over the former Parliamentary Constituency of South Sligo. These lists in every case have been fully vouched for by the collectors, and evidence is also in the possession of the Minister to prove that the amounts stated in these lists were handed to the Hibernian Bank in Ballymote for transmission to the then Minister for Finance. In addition to the lists supplied to the Department, I also handed in hundreds of individual applications from the subscribers, and in almost every case these applications had been certified as correct by one or more collectors.

All the lists and applications to which I have referred are now more than one year in possession of the Minister, and some of them almost two years.

If the Minister was so confident in June of last year that all applications, where satisfactory evidence in support of the claims was available, would be dealt with before the end of the financial year, why is he to-day not in a position to state the amounts refunded in South Sligo to date, and when the remaining applications will be dealt with? Does he consider it fair that those who so very generously subscribed to the Dáil Loan during 1919 and 1920 should be left for nine years without repayment? Others who fought on the side of the British during that period have long since been compensated at the expense of the Irish tax-payer. Why treat those who came forward with their money to assist in the struggle against the British in such a shabby way? Why not fix a definite date on which all subscribers, who have submitted satisfactory evidence in support of their claims, will be paid?

As far as I can ascertain no person in South Sligo has received a refund so far. The Government is treating these people in a shameless manner. Certainly more consideration should be expected from a native Government. Surely sufficient time has elapsed to enable the Government to discharge their liabilities towards those who subscribed to this loan.

I would like to hear from the Minister, when he comes to reply, the number, if any, who have received a refund of their subscriptions in South Sligo and by what date he expects to be in a position to authorise refunds in the remaining cases. There is just one other matter arising out of this question on which I would like to get information from the Minister. The Dáil Loan closed on the 17th July, 1920. After that date, certain sums, which had been collected in South Sligo, were handed to the Hibernian Bank in Ballymote by different collectors for transmission to the Department of Finance. These sums had been collected before the date on which the Dáil Loan closed, but, for some reason, the collectors were unable to lodge these sums until months after that date. In some cases, the money was not lodged until over a year after the date on which the Dáil Loan was closed. The total sum, according to my information, that was lodged in the Hibernian Bank after the 17th July, 1920, was £731. This money came from various parishes throughout South Sligo. I should like to know what is the position regarding this money? Did it reach the Department and, if so. will the Minister see that people who subscribed before the date on which the loan was closed, but in whose cases delay occurred in forwarding the money to the Department, will receive payment in the same way as those whose money was received before the 17th July, 1920?

Mr. Blythe

I do not know anything about the matters to which the Deputy last referred. He should have given me some notice of them. With reference to the position in South Sligo generally, there were very few names furnished to the Dáil Department of Finance or, if they were furnished, they were lost. I think they were not furnished. Therefore, the original register contained practically no names from South Sligo. That, necessarily, resulted in delay. In any areas where the original register was fairly complete, I think very little remains to be paid except in cases where applications from the individuals have not been forthcoming. Another difficulty in connection with areas where we had no register of names was that until a month or so ago claims were still coming in. It was almost impossible to do anything in those areas where there were no names on the register until we had stopped the influx of claims. It was dangerous to admit claims in an area where they equalled, or where they were even less than, the amount in hands, because of the possibility of other claims coming in equally well vouched, which would exceed the amount in hand. In areas where we had no names on the register and where we had claims in excess of the amount in hand, we were faced with the difficulty of deciding between them. That is the difficulty which we are now attempting to solve, and we hope that, within a very short time, we shall be able to devise a method of deciding which of the claims which are equally well vouched are to receive repayment in respect of areas where the claims are in excess of the amount in hand. Now, that no fresh applications are being received, where the claims are equal to or less than the amount in hand and are reasonably well vouched, we hope to get on pretty fast.

In South Sligo no payments have actually been made yet. Certain payments will be made shortly. There has been, for reasons that the Deputy is aware of, a great deal of furnishing of evidence recently. The Deputy has been active, and the new Deputy for the constituency has been active, and all sorts of evidence has been flowing in. South Sligo is not alone as an area for which practically no records were available. There are certain other areas in the same position, and in those areas people, through no fault of their own, have had to suffer delays, while in other areas payments were made. I cannot undertake to go into the case of South Sligo specially. All these cases are now in hands, and I believe that under the new conditions we will be able to dispose of them all very much more rapidly than in the past. I should say that, certainly within the present financial year, we will be able to reach a point where very few cases will remain to be disposed of.

Mr. de Valera

Has not the Minister made very small provision this year for the paying off the loan?

Mr. Blythe

There is now every prospect of being able to get on with the work much more rapidly, the main factor being as I have stated, that in an area where the claims equal the amount available there is no danger now of fresh applications coming in. In cases where the claims exceed the amount, we know exactly whom we have to deal with, and some process of eliminating those who seem to be the weakest can be carried through.

Mr. de Valera

Is the Minister aware that there is a great deal of complaint from all parts of the country—I have heard complaints myself—at the delay? The people who are entitled to get the money cannot understand why the Minister will not make provision so that, this year at all events, these claims will be satisfied.

Mr. Blythe

Seventy-five per cent. of the loan has been repaid. The exact figure may be a few pounds under or over that. There remains 25 per cent. to be repaid. That covers a number of very difficult cases in some extremely difficult areas. Of that 25 per cent., portion would be moderately easy to deal with. I do not know when we will deal with the last of the cases. I am afraid that, no matter what method of dealing with the matter we adopt, there will be some cases that will be almost insoluble. With reference to delay, it is often difficult to explain delay to an individual. I had a case brought to my notice recently in going through the country where the delay was due to the claimant's own carelessness. He made several applications, and actually had a receipt. With that receipt in his hand, he made a mistake in the particulars furnished. He was informed that his application was not correct. My Department could not understand how he could give those particulars if he had a receipt. We did not, for reasons of prudence, point out to him what the mistake he was making was. He continued to make the application, and he continued making the mistake. He was extremely indignant about the delay, which was entirely his own fault. Owing to the fact that we have in large numbers of areas more people applying than there is money for, the Department do not, if claimants make mistakes, correct the applications. We cannot say: "We have received your application, but you should state you live in such a place, or your name is not James Joseph, but John." We cannot correct applications, because we might be helping somebody who was not really entitled—who was brother or relative of the person entitled, or a person of the same name—to make an application. I do not see how we can get over that. Some of the delays have been caused by carelessness of that sort. There is also a very common form of delay where, in perfectly good faith, people apply for more money than they actually subscribed. A lot of cases have come to my notice in which I could not believe that the people were wilfully applying for more than they subscribed. In the course of time they probably began to think that they had given more than they really had. All these difficulties cause delays, and I see no way of getting over them. While in areas like South Sligo very little has been paid, in other areas, where the records happened to be good and facilities were available for the Department, practically all the money has been paid.

Mr. Carty

The Minister admitted that no payments were made in South Sligo.

Mr. Blythe

I do not say that there was absolutely none made.

Mr. Carty

Well, the fact that so few repayments were made in South Sligo would indicate that this particular area has been neglected to a certain extent. I should like to get an assurance from the Minister that this area will receive special attention during the next few months and that repayment will be expedited as much as possible. With reference to the moneys which were lodged in the Hibernian Bank, Ballymote, after the loan was closed——

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a separate question.

Mr. Carty

It arises out of this question.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is now making a second speech.

Mr. Carty

I want to point out to the Minister that he has already been furnished with a certified return by the manager of the Hibernian Bank in Ballymote, who also furnished me with a copy of the return. That return was sent to the Minister almost a year ago. A number of people whose money was handed in to this particular bank after the loan had closed are very uneasy as to whether or not they will receive a refund of their subscriptions. I should like if the Minister would look into the matter and get his staff to deal specially with this area. There is a sum of £731 involved. It relates to 12 different parishes, according to my information. I should like if the Minister would give me an assurance that he would look into this matter.

Mr. Blythe

The question will all depend on whether or not that money was received. If the money was received it will be repaid on the same evidence as the other moneys. If it was not received the presumption is it was used for other purposes. I am sure the Deputy is aware that people did not really regard this money as a loan at all. They regarded it as a subscription, and they were quite willing to have it put into the Self-determination Fund, or some other fund. There have been cases where money was collected for the loan, and the permission of the subscribers was sought to devote it to some other fund. In some cases permission was not sought.

Mr. Carty

Can I take it that when the money was collected from the subscribers before the Dáil Loan closed, and handed in afterwards by the collectors to the bank and later transferred to the Department of Finance that the money will be refunded to the subscribers even though it reached the Department after the loan had closed?

Mr. Blythe

The real point is: was it accepted as loan money? If it went to the Dáil Department of Finance, I presume it was accepted as loan money. If it were, it would be refunded. It would not, I think, have been accepted by the Department of Finance except as loan money.

Mr. Carty

The reason I put the question is because I have heard—I do not know whether the reports are well founded—that some of this money which was handed in to the bank, for transmission to the Department of Finance, was later drawn from that bank by one or more individuals and used in one case for private purposes and in another case for purposes alleged to be in connection with the Army. I do not know whether these statements are correct or not but I am giving the Minister the information. That is one of the reasons I should like to have this matter specially investigated. As I stated, there is a sum of over £700 involved.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.55 p.m. until Friday at 10.30 a.m.