In Committee on Finance. - Vote 54—Fisheries (Resumed). – Dáil Éireann (6th Dáil) – Wednesday, 10 Jul 1929

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 54—Fisheries (Resumed).

Seán Ua Guilidhe

Ba mhaith liom ceist do chur ar an Aire mar gheall ar an staid in a bhfuil na h-iascairí shios sa Roinn agus i nDún Garbháin. Na báid atá acu, tá siad go dona ar fad agus níl siad in ánn báid nua na líonta do cheannach. Ba mhaith liom fhios d'fháil ón Áire cád tá in aigne aige do dheunamh ar son na ndaoine seo. Is dó liom gur éigin congnamh airgid do thabhairt dóibh. Ní fheicim aon tsli eile gur féidir cabhrú leo.

Tá ceist eile ann—ceist an mhargaidh. Nuair a bhionn iaseach maith ag na h-iascairí, níl siad in ánn margadh d'fháil na an t-iasc do dhíol. Ba chóir rud éigin a dheunamh chun margadh d'fháil dóibh.

I want to refer to the inland fisheries. I referred to them the other day when speaking on the Land Bill. I would again call the attention of the Minister to the fact that it is really of very little use to develop the inland fisheries, because at the moment, instead of developing these fisheries for the benefit of the State, they are only being developed for the benefit of the landlords and such individuals. We are, in developing them, only benefiting individuals who possess rights that should be challenged. It is a mistake to devote too much attention to inland fisheries. Until we are in a position to have these fisheries in such a position that the people of the State will benefit from their development, and the benefit will not go to a few individuals, we should not spend money on the development of inland fisheries.

Mr. Blaney

With reference to the question raised by Deputy White regarding the Foyle and Bann Fishery Company in seizing the nets of Donegal fishermen, I notice that the Minister said that he did not think that it was a matter that should be brought before his Department, but that it was a matter for the Court. In his reply I want the Minister to state what Courts he refers to. I presume that he must be referring to the Six County Courts. A fishery case was decided some time ago in the Free State Court. The agent of the Foyle and Bann Company prosecuted Donegal fishermen for fishing in the Foyle. The case came before District Justice Walsh, and he dismissed the case on the grounds that a question of title was involved. He stated that he had not any jurisdiction. When giving that decision he remarked that he would like if this case were appealed. Since then no appeal was taken, and I think it is a question for the Executive Council to fight the issue with the Northern Parliament and not to throw the onus on the fishermen of Donegal.

Mr. Ruttledge

Will the Minister state how many trawlers have been prosecuted during the past twelve months, and could he give the House any idea of the penalties that were inflicted? Is the Minister aware that a number of people have been put to considerable trouble in the matter of claims for instalments on boats in cases where they have already paid? Deputy Kilroy raised the question on a previous occasion. The Minister must be satisfied in that particular case that the party sued had paid already. I have had experience of cases down in the Belmullet area. I advised the people that the proper thing to do was to say nothing but to go into court and to fight the cases. As the Minister is aware, I have myself collected costs from his Department in the past month where cases were dismissed. These people were put to considerable trouble. The people had to go to the Post Offices and collect the counterfoils of the money orders they sent. Some poor people sent on instalments in notes, and in these cases the payments cannot be traced, and no possible defence can be put up. There is no doubt about it cases of this kind have happened and are happening through the country.

Mr. T. O'Reilly

There is one point on which I would like to address the Minister, and it is about the protection of fishermen in pursuit of their calling. I have a case in mind where a man was fishing. He had his nets half a mile from the shore in Valentia Harbour. A French trawler came along and ran through and tore the nets, and pulled the boat 400 or 500 yards. This man followed the French boat and got the captain arrested. He was detained until the following day, when the Superintendent of the Gárda released him, stating that he had no power to detain him any longer. The man who owned the boat was Mahony. He got no satisfaction at all. I wrote to the Department of Fisheries on his behalf, and the reply I got reads:

"I am directed by the Minister for Lands and Fisheries to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 3rd instant relative to the loss of nets by Jeremiah Mahony, and to say that your previous letter on the same subject was referred to the Department of Justice, and it is having their attention."

This happened on 16th November, and this is the 10th July. Mahony has got no satisfaction since. It is a deplorable state of affairs that a foreign boat can come along like that and endanger the lives of fishermen who are in the legitimate pursuit of their daily occupation. These boats tear through the nets of men like Mahony, whose nets were value for about £19 10s., and in addition they caused the loss of two nights' fishing. I also drew the attention of the Department of Fisheries to the necessity of putting a railing at the heads of piers down in Kerry. With regard to that, I already mentioned the case of a man who lost his life down in Kerry because of the absence of a railing from the head of the pier. Nothing has been done to remedy that.

Mr. de Valera

What explanation has the Minister to give to the House for the expenditure of close on £28,000 on salaries, travelling expenses, etc.? On the fishery service only £18,000 is spent and £22,000 is spent on rural industries. There is an expenditure of something like £28,000 on a service which is about £40,000 altogether, and I want to ask the Minister whether there is a need for all these secretaries and secretaries to secretaries that we have here in the list on this Estimate? We have a Minister, a private secretary to the Minister, a Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister, a private secretary to the Parliamentary Secretary, a short-hand-typist to the Parliamentary Secretary, a secretary, a private secretary to the secretary, and many other Departmental officials. What are all the secretaries for?

Mr. Moore

Will the Minister tell us, if he gets an opportunity to reply at all, whether the sea fisheries co-operative association is intended to be a general development association or is it to have a limited and defined function? Will it be controlled by the Government, or is it intended that it will be a fisherman's association with merely Government representation?

Mr. MacEntee

I would like the Minister for Fisheries to tell us, since all the armed forces in the Free State must be under the control of the Government, under whose control are the armed forces of the Foyle and Bann Fishery Company?

Mr. Lynch

I have very little time in which to answer all the questions put to me. I will deal with what Deputy de Valera has said. Surely the Deputy is not so innocent as not to realise that when one is dealing with estimates for public departments the very estimates are almost entirely composed of provisions for administration? The estimates in nearly all cases are almost entirely for salaries and allowances. There are very few estimates where there is anything at all set aside for development. Take the estimate for the Department of Education, the estimate for the Gárda Síochána, or the estimate for the Department of Agriculture as an example. If one tries to make the comparison that the Deputy is making it will be found that the amounts practically entirely represent salaries. That is what estimates are for.

Mr. de Valera

What work is being done by your Department? What increase in connection with fisheries can be shown?

Mr. Lynch

I would take an extremely long time to deal with the functions of a Government Department. Two years ago on my estimate I went into the matter of the functions of the Department very fully. It deals with fishery law, and a great many matters in the way of loans, and so on. It would take at least three-quarters of an hour to explain the functions of the Department. If the Deputy went to the trouble of reading debates on estimates that were considered before he came here he could easily find out what is being done. He mentions the Parliamentary Secretary. I am sure the Deputy knows very well that, although this is on the Fisheries Vote, the Parliamentary Secretary's duties are mostly confined to the Land Commission.

Mr. de Valera

Doing part of the Minister's work.

Mr. Lynch

He is doing what Parliamentary Secretaries usually do. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance takes charge of the Board of Works. The Parliamentary Secretary in my Department takes charge of the Land Commission on my behalf. Very many questions have been raised and it will be possible for me to deal with only a few. One of the points most canvassed is the revaluation of boats and it has been declared that nothing was done in spite of promises. A certain scheme of revaluation had been agreed to. As I said last year, a Bill was actually drafted embodying that scheme. It was an extremely rigid scheme and, after further consideration, even though the Bill was drafted, we decided it was better to have the thing reconsidered from the point of view of individuals rather than parties. The scheme was that any loans given between 1916 and 1923 were written down in a certain percentage according to the year under-review. We found, on looking into the thing, that very many individual cases were just excluded either through being before the period or after the period. Therefore, we came to the conclusion that it was better to consider each case on its merits.

The question of the earlier opening of seasons was raised. The position with regard to that is that where there is any demand from any given place for earlier opening of a season we grant a public inquiry. Full notice is given in all the papers; notice is posted up in the Gárda Síochána barracks and on school gates, indicating that the inquiry is being held and every person is given an opportunity of appearing before the inspector. Evidence is taken and the inspector makes a certain report. That report is acted upon. It may be in favour of the demand that the season be opened earlier or it may be the contrary. If the inspector reports in favour of a change of season I normally act on the report and make a by-law to that effect.

A lot of discussion has centred around the position with regard to several fisheries in the country. Several fisheries are like any other private property. As long as they are there and their title is established I certainly have no authority to abolish that title. The only way to proceed would be to adopt the same procedure as in the case of land. It might be possible to do it in that way. If the country were prepared the spend the money we could have a Fisheries Purchase Bill the same as we had a Land Purchase Bill. But merely by a stroke of the pen to initiate a policy of abolishing all private property might lead to considerable trouble with regard to property as a whole. Deputy Tubridy referred to certain steps with regard to industries in his particular area.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am afraid that the Minister cannot go any further. The time is up, as it is now 10 o'clock.

Mr. Clery

Could I put a question to the Minister?

An Ceann Comhairle

No, the time is up.

Mr. Aiken

Could it not be continued if the House agreed to it?

An Ceann Comhairle

No.

Mr. Clery

The Minister may account himself very fortunate, as he got away with a lying statement just as he did last year.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Clery has used sufficient bad language for one day.

Question—Go gcuirtear an measta-chan thar n-ais chun aith-bhreithniú do dhéanamh air—put.

The President

I desire to put you a point of order, sir, of which you are the sole judge. I presume that as you put the question some time after 10 o'clock it is the second part of the guillotine Resolution which applies, and that the only Question which can be put from the Chair is the Estimate and not Deputy Derrig's amendment.

An Ceann Comhairle

The terms of the Resolution come to by the House to-day in regard to the transaction of this particular business stated that the proceedings on the Estimates, "if not previously brought to a conclusion, shall be brought to a conclusion at 10 p.m. on Wednesday, July 10th, 1929, by putting from the Chair forthwith and successively the Questions necessary to bring the proceedings to a conclusion." The Resolution goes on to state: "Provided that after the said hour on the said day a Question shall not be put from the Chair on any amendment, nor upon any motion other than a motion necessary to bring the proceedings forthwith to a conclusion, and then only when moved by the Government." The President's point is that the Question moved by Deputy Derrig was not moved by the Government and cannot be put. I think that under the terms of the Resolution it was a Question which was necessary to bring the proceedings to a conclusion. It fell to be put at 10 o'clock, and the proviso applies to such other questions as may fall to be put subsequent to 10 o'clock.

Tá

Aiken, Frank.
Allen, Denis.
Blaney, Neal.
Boland, Gerald.
Boland, Patrick.
Bourke, Daniel.
Brady, Seán.
Briscoe, Robert.
Buckley, Daniel.
Cassidy, Archie J.
Derrig, Thomas.
De Valera, Eamon.
Doyle, Edward.
Everett, James.
Fahy, Frank.
Fogarty, Andrew.
Gorry, Patrick J.
Goulding, John.
Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
Houlihan, Patrick.
Jordan, Stephen.
Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
Kent, William R.
Kerlin, Frank.
Killane, James Joseph.
Killilea, Mark.
Kilroy, Michael.
Lemass, Seán F.
Little, Patrick John.
Clancy, Patrick.
Clery, Michael.
Coburn, James.
Colbert, James.
Cooney, Eamon.
Corkery, Dan.
Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
Crowley, Tadhg.
Davin, William.
Maguire, Ben.
MacEntee, Seán.
Moore, Séamus.
Mullins, Thomas.
O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
O'Kelly, Seán T.
O'Leary, William.
O'Reilly, Matthew.
O'Reilly, Thomas.
Powell, Thomas P.
Ruttledge, Patrick J.
Ryan, James.
Sexton, Martin.
Sheehy, Timothy (Tipp.).
Smith, Patrick.
Tubridy, John.
Walsh, Richard.
Ward, Francis C.

Níl

Aird, William P.
Alton, Ernest Henry.
Beckett, James Walter.
Bennett, George Cecil.
Blythe, Ernest.
Brennan, Michael.
Brodrick, Seán.
Byrne, John Joseph.
Cole, John James.
Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
Conlon, Martin.
Connolly, Michael P.
Cosgrave, William T.
Craig, Sir James.
Crowley, James.
Daly, John.
Davis, Michael.
De Loughrey, Peter.
Doherty, Eugene.
Dolan, James N.
Doyle, Peadar Seán.
Duggan, Edmund John.
Dwyer, James.
Egan, Barry M.
Esmonde, Osmond Thos. Grattan.
Fitzgerald, Desmond.
Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
Haslett, Alexander.
Hassett, John J.
Heffernan, Michael R.
Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
Hennessy, Thomas.
Hennigan, John.
Henry, Mark.
Holohan, Richard.
Jordan, Michael.
Kelly, Patrick Michael.
Keogh, Myles.
Law, Hugh Alexander.
Leonard, Patrick.
Lynch, Finian.
Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
McDonogh, Martin.
MacEóin, Seán.
McFadden, Michael Og.
McGilligan, Patrick.
Mongan, Joseph W.
Murphy, James E.
Myles, James Sproule.
Nally, Martin Michael.
Nolan, John Thomas.
O'Connell, Richard.
O'Connor, Bartholomew.
O'Hanlon, John F.
O'Higgins, Thomas.
O'Leary, Daniel.
O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
O'Reilly, John J.
O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
Rice, Vincent.
Roddy, Martin.
Shaw, Patrick W.
Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
Thrift, William Edward.
Tierney, Michael.
Vaughan, Daniel.
White, John.
White, Vincent Joseph.
Wolfe, George.

Tellers:—Tá: Deputies G. Boland and Allen; Níl: Deputies Duggan and P.S. Doyle.

Question declared lost.

Main question put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 76; Níl, 49.

Tá

Aird, William P.
Alton, Ernest Henry.
Beckett, James Walter.
Bennett, George Cecil.
Blythe, Ernest.
Brennan, Michael.
Brodrick, Seán.
Cosgrave, William T.
Craig, Sir James.
Crowley, James.
Daly, John.
Davin, William.
Davis, Michael.
De Loughrey, Peter.
Doherty, Eugene.
Dolan, James N.
Doyle, Edward.
Doyle, Peadar Seán.
Duggan, Edmund John.
Dwyer, James.
Egan, Barry M.
Esmonde, Osmond Thos. Grattan.
Everett, James.
Fitzgerald, Desmond.
Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
Haslett, Alexander.
Hassett, John J.
Heffernan, Michael R.
Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
Hennessy, Thomas.
Hennigan, John.
Henry, Mark.
Holohan, Richard.
Jordan, Michael.
Kelly, Patrick Michael.
Keogh, Myles.
Law, Hugh Alexander.
Leonard, Patrick.
Byrne, John Joseph.
Cassidy, Archie J.
Clancy, Patrick.
Cole, John James.
Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
Conlon, Martin.
Connolly, Michael P.
Lynch, Finian.
Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
McDonogh, Martin.
MacEóin, Seán.
McFadden, Michael Og.
McGilligan, Patrick.
Mongan, Joseph W.
Murphy, James E.
Murphy, Joseph Xavier.
Myles, James Sproule.
Nally, Martin Michael.
Nolan, John Thomas.
O'Connell, Richard.
O'Connor, Bartholomew.
O'Hanlon, John F.
O'Higgins, Thomas.
O'Leary, Daniel.
O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
O'Reilly, John J.
O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
Rice, Vincent.
Roddy, Martin.
Shaw, Patrick W.
Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
Thrift, William Edward.
Tierney, Michael.
Vaughan, Daniel.
White, John.
White, Vincent Joseph.
Wolfe, George.

Níl

Aiken, Frank.
Allen, Denis.
Blaney, Neal.
Boland, Gerald.
Boland, Patrick.
Bourke, Daniel.
Brady, Seán.
Briscoe, Robert.
Buckley, Daniel.
Clery, Michael.
Colbert, James.
Cooney, Eamon.
Corkery, Dan.
Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
Crowley, Tadhg.
Derrig, Thomas.
De Valera, Eamon.
Fahy, Frank.
Fogarty, Andrew.
Gorry, Patrick J.
Goulding, John.
Houlihan, Patrick.
Jordan, Stephen.
Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
Kent, William R.
Kerlin, Frank.
Killane, James Joseph.
Killilea, Mark.
Kilroy, Michael.
Lemass, Seán F.
Little, Patrick John.
Maguire, Ben.
MacEntee, Seán.
Moore, Séamus.
Mullins, Thomas.
O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
O'Kelly, Seán T.
O'Leary, William.
O'Reilly, Matthew.
O'Reilly, Thomas.
Powell, Thomas P.
Ruttledge, Patrick J.
Ryan, James.
Sexton, Martin.
Sheehy, Timothy (Tipp.).
Smith, Patrick.
Tubridy, John.
Walsh, Richard.
Ward, Francis C.

Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Duggan and Doyle; Níl: Deputies Boland and Allen.

Motion declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

In accordance with the terms of the resolution arrived at to-day, I shall now put the questions on the remaining Financial business.

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Jul 1929