Skip to main content

Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 13 Mar 1930

Vol. 33 No. 14

Wild Birds Protection Bill, 1929—Money Resolution (in Committee on Finance).

Minister for Finance

I move:

"Go bhfuil sé oiriúnach a údarú go n-íocfar amach as airgead a sholáthróidh an tOireachtas aon chostaisí fé n-a raghfar chun aon Acht do chur in éifeacht a rithfear sa tSiosón so chun leasú agus có-dhlúthú do dhéanamh ar an dlí a bhaineas le héanacha fiadhaine do chaomhaint.

"That it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys to be provided by the Oireachtas of any expenses incurred in carrying into effect any Act of the present Session to amend and consolidate the law relating to the protection of wild birds."

It is not expected that the costs incurred under this Money Resolution will exceed £20 per annum. There will only be the cost of publication in Iris Oifigiuil of orders made by the Minister for Justice and public notices of orders made on the application of the Minister for Lands and Fisheries.

Mr. E. Doyle

In connection with this Money Resolution, I object to money being spent upon Bills of this sort. We have other matters which are of great importance to this country, such as housing, the unemployment problem, the town tenants question, etc., which could be dealt with, instead of having old maids' Bills of this sort sent to this House from the Seanad and wailing and weeping over little birds. I object to the Money Resolution being passed.

Mr. Little

Might I ask if this Bill is to go to a Select Committee after the Money Resolution is dealt with? I understood it was a Private Member's Bill and not a Government Bill. The answer you, sir, gave me on a former occasion was that this was a Private Member's Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle

No. I do not think I ever told the Deputy that it was a Private Member's Bill. This is a Bill which was initiated in and passed by the Seanad and the Second Stage was moved in this House by a Minister in Government time; and an order was made accordingly that the Bill be considered in Committee. The Bill is down for consideration in Committee of the whole Dáil to-day. I have no recollection of telling the Deputy that it was a Private Member's Bill.

Mr. Little

I asked the Ceann Comhairle if it was a Government measure and he said it was not a Government measure. If it is not a Government measure, what is it?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Ceann Comhairle says a number of things from the Chair and he finds it impossible to remember them accurately when he is asked about them without notice. The Deputy might, perhaps, cite the Official Reports to prove that the Ceann Comhairle said this was not a Government Bill. I think the Ceann Comhairle declined to state whether it was a Government Bill or not. If the Deputy consults the Official Reports, he will find that the Ceann Comhairle stated the facts without commenting on them: that the Bill came from the Seanad and that the Second Reading was moved by the Minister for Justice in this House in Government time. The Ceann Comhairle, I think, did not go further than that.

Mr. Little

I pressed the Ceann Comhairle on the point and my impression is—I do not happen to have the Official Reports here, but if I have time while the discussion is going on I shall get them—that he said it was not a Government measure, but there was no reason why the Minister should not move a Bill which was not a Government measure. If it is not a Government measure, what else can it be except a Private Member's Bill?

An Ceann Comhairle

That dilemma, if it is a dilemma, should have been put to the Ceann Comhairle when the Committee Stage was being ordered. I am not at all accepting the Deputy's version of what happened. The Ceann Comhairle works on particular principles, and I am sure in this case, that he stated the facts. The facts, as I said before, are, that this is a Bill from the Seanad; that the Second Stage was moved by a Minister in this House in Government time, and it was ordered accordingly to go to a Committee of the whole Dáil. When the Money Resolution has been passed. the Bill will be taken in Committee of the whole Dáil.

Mr. Little

Might I ask the Minister if this is a Government measure?

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us pass the Money Resolution first.

Mr. Little

It is very important, because the whole question of order arises on whether or not this should go to a Select Committee, or whether the order adopted is irregular or not.

An Ceann Comhairle

Before the Minister replies, I wish to say that the order made for consideration of the Bill in Committee of the whole Dáil was quite proper, without any regard to the Minister's statement— if he cares to make a statement— as to whether or not this is a Government Bill. From the point of view of the Chair, what happened is that the Bill was sent to a Committee of the whole Dáil. That question of order is quite clear.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney)

The only thing I feel inclined to say is, if I may respectfully say so, that you, sir, have stated absolutely correctly what happened. This is a Bill which came down from the Seanad and which I moved here in Government time, and since Deputy Little has a thirst for classification, I shall allow him to classify it in any way he pleases.

Mr. Little

As a Government measure?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

The Deputy can classify it in any way he likes in his own mind. I may point out to Deputy Doyle that any sum of money which may be spent on this matter will be absolutely trifling—it may amount to nothing at all. It can never amount to anything except the most trifling sum, which could not be of any great importance for carrying out the most excellent projects to which the Deputy says it might be applied.

Mr. Doyle

Excellent?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I said the excellent projects which the Deputy thought the money might be applied to.

Mr. Doyle

The Bill is not worth a farthing.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

It will not cost much more.

Mr. Little

I think this motion should be opposed. I think this Bill is wrongly conceived. Something should be done to prevent the export of certain wild birds; there is no doubt about that, but this Bill deals with it in the wrong way. The treatment of wild birds should be approached from the point of view of educating young people not to be cruel to wild birds. That should be a matter for the national schools, and as for the question of trading in wild birds, that should be brought under control by having traders and bird fanciers subject to a system of registration.

Mr. Law

May I ask you, a Chinn Chomhairle, how all this arises on a Money Resolution?

Mr. Little

In opposition to it.

Mr. Law

The Deputy is making a Second Reading speech?

Mr. Little

I am speaking against the Money Resolution.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy meet the point of order raised by Deputy Law that he is making a Second Reading speech?

Mr. Little

I think we ought not to waste money on the matter at all. On this motion on the Order Paper I think we are entitled to discuss what we are going to spend the money on. In discussing that we are bound to discuss the merits of the Bill, and if we do not discuss the merits of the Bill, I do not know what we are to discuss.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a nice point. On the Money Resolution the Deputy is entitled to discuss the question of the expenses of the Bill but clearly the merits of the Bill arise for debate on Second Stage. The House has already agreed to the principle of the Bill, and the details of the Bill will be discussed in Committee, according to the Order already made by the House. The Deputy is confined now to discussing, as Deputy Doyle very briefly and relevantly did discuss, whether it is a proper thing to spend any money upon this matter at all, but not so as to bring us back to the Second Reading debate.

Mr. Little

I think in discussing the question of the Money Resolution one must have an eye upon the amendments we have to deal with. In looking at these amendments I can find no amendment that adequately deals with the matters I am raising now. Not only are there no amendments there of that kind, but no such amendments could possibly be introduced into the frame-work of the Bill as it stands. Therefore I say it is not proper that this House should devote public moneys to this Bill. I think I am perfectly entitled to point out the defects in the Bill at this stage before the Bill is amended, because if I were out of order in that this is the wrong time to take the Money Resolution, and it should be taken after the Committee Stage. Otherwise looking to what is going to be done in the Amendment Stage, I believe I am entitled now to argue against the Money Resolution being taken, because the Bill is defective in principle.

An Ceann Comhairle

I was prepared to give the Deputy a certain amount of latitude on this matter, and on this particular Bill, which is not a very contentious one, but if the Deputy puts such a clear point of order I must decide it on account of the precedent it creates. The Deputy's complaint is: he objects to the Bill because there are no amendments down for Committee Stage which would make the Bill acceptable to him and, therefore, he must discuss the defects of the Bill now, which defects he contends will not be met by anything done in Committee. The Deputy could have made his objections to the principle of the Bill on the Second Stage, or he could have put down amendments to the Bill which would be taken at the Committee Stage, but he cannot, on the Money Resolution to any Bill, object to the Bill on principle, and indicate the defects in the Bill by way of omission. That would be impossible. The Bill was introduced and read a Second Time and it can be discussed, section by section, in Committee. The Bill will be reported, and there will be a Fifth Stage. These are all opportunities for discussing the Bill, but the Money Resolution is another thing altogether. and it cannot be used as another stage for discussing the principle of the Bill.

Mr. Little

May I ask, a Chinn Chomhairle, what we can discuss on the Money Resolution?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will recollect various points of order put to the Ceann Comhairle in the House. I think he will remember that this is the kind of question which the Ceann Comhairle does not answer.

Mr. Little

I do not think he can. I submit with all seriousness that a Money Resolution, as now dealt with by the Ceann Comhairle, is purely a formal matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

No.

Mr. Little

Because you cannot discuss an amendment on it or discuss the principle of the Bill, and there is nothing else to discuss.

An Ceann Comhairle

If it is not within the ingenuity of the Deputy to find anything else to discuss, it is not for the Ceann Comhairle to suggest to him how he can carry on a discussion.

Mr. Little

I think that the Chair is not dealing with this matter in the spirit of seriousness which it deserves. There is a serious question of procedure here. I think it is obvious after this discussion that a Money Resolution is largely a formal matter on which you can raise neither a question of principle nor a question of detail on an amendment.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy searches the records of the House and the Official Debates he will find that there have been debates on a Money Resolution, but it is clearly intended that there should not be a debate on a Money Resolution which would be merely a repetition of the Second Reading debate. I am really very serious in this because, while the matter of the Bill is not of what you might call first importance, the question of order is of some importance.

Question put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 82; Níl, 40.

Tá

Níl

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Duggan and P.S. Doyle; Níl, Deputies Cassidy and E. Doyle.

Motion declared carried.

Resolution reported and agreed to.

Top