Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 Apr 1930

Vol. 34 No. 6

In Committee on Finance. - International Labour Conventions.

Mr. McGilligan

I move:

"That Dáil Eireann approves of the following Conventions, copies of which were laid on the Table of the Dáil on the 5th day of March, 1930, namely:—

(a) concerning the marking of the weight on heavy packages transported by vessels;

(b) concerning the protection against accidents of workers employed in loading and unloading ships;

and recommends the Executive Council to take the appropriate steps for their ratification.

"That Dáil Eireann approves of the following Convention, a copy of which was laid on the Table of the Dáil on the 5th day of March, 1930, concerning the application of the weekly rest in industrial undertakings, and recommends the Executive Council to take the appropriate steps for its ratification.

"That Dáil Eireann approves of the following Convention, a copy of which was laid on the Table of the Dáil on the 5th day of March, 1930, concerning equality of treatment for national and foreign workers as regards workmen's compensation for accidents, and recommends the Executives Council to take the appropriate steps for its ratification.

"That Dáil Eireann approves of the following Convention, a copy of which was laid on the Table of the Dáil on the 5th day of March, 1930, concerning the creation of minimum wage-fixing machinery, and recommends the Executive Council to take the appropriate steps for its ratification."

The details of these Conventions have been given in the Stationery Office publication presented to the Oireachtas. I do not think it is necessary to go into any great detail on these Conventions. The first group are concerned with maritime matters generally. The titles of the Conventions themselves pretty definitely indicate the precise object of each Convention. There are just about two points in connection with these that might be noted. In the case of the first the indemnity with regard to unemployment is only in the case of loss or foundering of a ship and according to Article 2.

"This indemnity shall be paid for the days during which the seaman remains in fact unemployed at the same rate as the wages payable under the contract, but the total indemnity payable under this Convention to any one seaman may be limited to two months' wages."

Then there is a proviso with regard to the remedies that seamen have for recovering these indemnities. This Convention in Article 9 is said to be one which may be denounced after the expiration of five years from the date on which it first comes into force with regard to the particular country, and when Conventions have been denounced at the end of five years, that denunciation takes effect a year later; so approving of the ratification of this binds this State to it for a minimum period of six years.

The second is one which settled the minimum age for the employment of young people, persons under 18 years of age, in certain occupations—employment on vessels as trimmers or stokers. There are certain subsidiary regulations proposed, allowing, in exceptional circumstances, that people of 18 may be employed where no others can be got.

"In that case it shall be necessary to engage two young persons in place of the trimmer or stoker required."

Two persons must then be employed instead of one. This Convention can only be denounced at the end of ten years and denunciation takes effect a year later; so that if signed this holds for eleven years.

The third one, as the title shows, concerns the compulsory medical examination of children and young persons employed at sea, but not referring specifically to the matters dealt with in the second convention under discussion, that is, as trimmers or stokers. This simply provides in the case of those employing them that a medical examination must be made when young people are being employed on board ship, and the medical certificate must be given and renewed at certain stated periods. This Convention also if ratified holds for ten years and thereafter for a year.

The fourth Convention concerns the simplification of the inspection of emigrants on board ship. It is much looser in its terms than any of the others because it simply states that a scheme shall be drawn up, but certain things are left for purposes to be defined by the competent authority in each country. This is simply to ensure that in the business of carrying emigrants there must be definite regulations laid down and adhered to. Again it is a Convention which could be denounced at the expiration of ten years.

The next one is much the most detailed of any we have before the House this time, and the general effect of it may be seen without going into the details. It is enforcing on people who are engaging seamen the obligation to have the articles reduced to writing. The articles of agreement reduced to writing must include provisions relating to all the details set out in Article 6 of this Convention. Again this is purely in the interests of the seafaring classes, to see that they will know the conditions under which they will go to sea and to see that they will be enabled at the time to enforce the conditions under which they have signed. This is also under Article 21 a ten-year Convention and may be denounced at the end of a ten-year period.

The last of them concerns the repatriation of seamen. Articles 3 and 4 are the important Articles in this. It simply comes to this, that any seaman who is landed during the terms of his engagement or on its expiration shall be entitled to be taken back to his own country or to the port at which he was engaged, and provisions are made with regard to penalties. This also is a ten-year Convention.

With regard to the first group of six Conventions, the situation in this country with regard to the law is a little bit obscure, but an amending code has long been promised with regard to merchant shipping, and that is definitely reaching its final stages. Under the code that will be brought forward all these points are being met, so we are moving a little bit in advance of the legislation. It simply is because we know that the code that is likely to be brought before the House, not this session but certainly before the year ends, will ensure in relation to seamen all the necessary legislation to give effect to these Conventions that the Conventions are now being brought forward. Of all the Conventions that have been put forward by the International Labour Office these are the ones that commanded most respect from the countries generally. When I say that, it has to be taken with limitation to the countries that are obviously interested in seamen and shipping. There has really been established an International Court for dealing with international matters here set out. Deputies will have no difficulty in accepting the recommendations now brought forward or the legislation that will within a year be brought forward to enforce them.

Mr. T.J. O'Connell

We are pleased to see the Minister bringing forward these Conventions for ratification. Our complaint in the past has been the delay that sometimes occurs in bringing forward Conventions that are adopted by the International Labour Office. The Minister made a reference to the publication by the Stationery Office of the text of the Conventions. I would like to point out that the publication in this particular form is rather misleading, because anybody who would take this up and read the title of it would think that this in fact contained all the Conventions. You could not blame a person for taking this up and assuming that it contained all the Conventions that were adopted by the International Labour Office. This contains the Conventions that it is now proposed to ratify. I think something should have been stated to that effect. The Minister knows that there are very important Conventions adopted which are not yet brought forward for ratification and which are not included in this publication.

With regard to the Conventions that are being adopted here, I have nothing to say, but I would like to get some information from the Minister as to what are his intentions in reference to some of the other Conventions which are not being brought forward for ratification and which have been adopted for a good many years. There are two or three Conventions that workers in this country are particularly interested in. There is the Hours Convention of 1919. There were certain objections with regard to that. I think the main difficulty was the refusal of the Conservative Government in Britain to adopt it. I understand that the Labour Government in Britain are now proposing to adopt it, and that it is only the exigency of Parliamentary time that prevents them from doing so. I would like to know what the intentions of the Minister are. I do not see that there can be any great difficulty now about adopting it. It would make no radical change in this country, because the principle of the 48 hours' week is very generally adopted in this country already, and it would not make any material difference in so far as industrial activity is concerned.

There is another matter that I think the Minister should have no hesitation in bringing before the Dáil for ratification—that is the Convention with regard to night work in bakeries adopted in 1925. In practice we have no night work in bakeries in the Saorstát. There is general agreement among workers and employers in regard to that issue. One of our own delegates from the Saorstát, Professor O'Rahilly, was largely instrumental in having this Convention adopted. I think there is no reason why it should not be brought forward for ratification. There has been objection that because there is night baking in Northern Ireland bread would be brought in across the Border if the Convention were adopted. But in practice at the present time there is no night baking.

There is the White Lead Convention and a few others. There is insurance of agricultural workers. I would like to know from the Minister what his intentions are with regard to these. I am glad to see this number now brought forward for ratification. I think it should be a general principle that when Conventions of this kind are adopted by the International Labour Office they should be brought before the Dáil for ratification at as early a date as possible. The general intention of these Conventions is that legislation with regard to industrial matters and workers generally should be brought to a definite level in all the countries of the world. In countries like our own a good many of them are already in operation. We should be anxious to set a good example to other countries and to have a reasonable standard of industrial conditions adopted.

Mr. McGilligan

I agree that this document might have been produced in another form. One might conclude from the title "Conventions adopted" that it included further Conventions. That is not the case. It might be better if it were "certain Conventions," or "Conventions adopted by the Conference and now about to be proposed for ratification" or something like that. At any rate, it is quite clear to the House that it is by no means an attempt to mislead. It is simply an inadvertence. If it is in order to discuss these Conventions that are not being ratified, I could go into seven or eight.

Mr. O'Connell

What we are anxious to get are the intentions of the Minister.

Mr. McGilligan

I can simply say that I am moving to ratify eleven. We have already ratified about ten. There are eight outstanding, and we do not propose at present to move in these eight. There are about three in connection with compulsory insurance necessitated by medical benefit. We have not that system at present and we do not propose to introduce it and therefore cannot bring in the Convention. As to night baking, we are leaving it over for consideration, as there is the question of the single-man bakery. In fact there is no night baking here. We had left that over as certain investigations are not concluded. As to the Hours Convention, we certainly are not going to move ahead of industrial countries who are our competitors in a certain way and who have not ratified. We cannot put ourselves in a worse position in so far as there is the remote possibility of any enlargement of that Hours Convention.

Mr. O'Connell

Do I take it that if this Hours Convention is ratified by the British Government, we will consider it?

Mr. McGilligan

It changes the situation very much in favour of ratification.

Mr. O'Connell

I did not understand the Minister's reference to the night bakeries.

Mr. McGilligan

The position is that there is no night baking, but there are certain one-man bakeries. It is a question of how far this Convention would interfere. There is also a certain reaction on bakeries across the Border. The fear has been expressed by certain people that if night baking were definitely abolished here it might lead to certain competition by firms across the Border who are not prohibited from night baking and do carry it on at night.

Mr. O'Connell

Does the Minister hold out any hope?

Mr. McGilligan

It is being considered very favourably.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. McGilligan

I move:

"Go n-aontuíonn Dáil Eireann leis na Convensiún seo leanas, dar leagadh cóipeanna ar Bhoard na Dála ar an 5adh lá de Mhárta, 1930, eadhon:—

(a) i dtaobh an mheáchaint do mhareáil ar phaeáistí troma bheidh á n-iompar ar árthaí;

(b) i dtaobh lucht oibre bhíonn ag ládáil agus ag díládáil long do chosaint ar thionóiseí;

agus go molann don Ard-Chomhairle na nithe is oiriúnach do dhéanamh chun a ndaingnithe.

That Dáil Eireann approves of the following Conventions, copies of which were laid on the Table of the Dáil on the 5th day of March, 1930, namely:—

(a) concerning the marking of the weight on heavy packages transported by vessels;

(b) concerning the protection against accidents of workers employed in loading and unloading ships;

and recommends the Executive Council to take the appropriate steps for their ratification."

These Conventions are pretty accurately described by the title and I do not intend to go into the details of them, especially in regard to the second, as to which there is a considerable amount of detail given in the Convention itself. As to the carrying out of these, the gist of the Conventions can actually be said to be in force in the country. There may be legislation required on small points, but in the main we believe that the full effect of the Conventions can be got by certain changes which we propose to make in statutory orders that will mainly cover the second. On these points, I have been to a certain extent in consultation with people who would be most definitely concerned and do not find any disagreement as to the effect of the two Conventions or the change that the statutory orders require. Again, even though it be ahead of the changes or orders, I am asking the Dáil to agree to the acceptance of these two.

Mr. Corish

Could the Minister give any explanation as to what it is proposed to do as to (b) "Concerning the protection against accidents of workers employed in loading and unloading ships." The position as far as dock labourers is concerned is very uncertain. In some small towns men are given the job of procuring a gang of workers to load or unload a boat. They are called stevedores, but are not really stevedores. When it comes to the question of a man meeting with an accident and having to sue them for compensation, they are men of straw. I have in mind a case in Wexford where a man took an action against a supposed stevedore and was unable to get any compensation. I am wondering if the adoption of this Convention will make the position any clearer and if it will safeguard the position of workers to any greater extent than in the past. To my mind, the person who employs a man of that kind, who is not a stevedore in the accepted sense, should be held liable for compensation in case of accident to a workman, and I should like to have the Minister's view as to the exact position.

Mr. McGilligan

I am not sure that the point which the Deputy refers to is going to be covered. The second Convention of the two we are discussing deals with various ways of protecting against accident the workers employed in the loading or unloading of ships. If the Deputy will go through the various articles, he will see that they mainly refer to the places where these people would be employed, such as approaches to docks, wharves, or premises, having to be guarded. There will be certain Harbour Commissioners who will be responsible there. Similarly, when one gets to Article 3—a ship lying alongside—the means of access must be guarded in particular ways. The onus may rest either on the master of the ship or on whomsoever is in charge of the dock or wharf. In nearly every case under these Articles, although not so stated in the terms of the Convention, there stands out somebody as definitely being responsible for having places made safe. I do not think the special point the Deputy is at, of people calling themselves stevedores and getting gangs of men, is really covered by this. The Deputy raises the question as to who is responsible. I do not think that is met by this at all. The only ground I can give, and it is a sufficient ground for the purpose of the Convention, is that I can issue new regulations under the Factory and Workshops Act which will bring about the conditions I want to ensure.

Mr. Corish

I am concerned about the responsibility of some person when a dock labourer, or somebody like that, meets with an accident. I should like if the Minister would do something about that or have it examined.

Mr. McGilligan

Certainly I shall get the point looked into. I think it is not a Convention point.

Mr. Corish

I am satisfied that it does not come into this, but I thought it was an opportune time to raise it.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. McGilligan

I move:

"Go n-aontuíonn Dáil Eireann leis an gConvensiún so leanas dar leagadh cóip ar Bhord na Dála ar an 5adh lá de Mhárta, 1930, i dtaobh an sos seachtainiúil do chur i bhfeidhm i ngnóthaí ceárdais agus go molann don Ard-Chomhairle na nithe is oiriúnach do dhéanamh chun a dhaingnithe.

That Dáil Eireann approves of the following Convention, a copy of which was laid on the Table of the Dáil on the 5th day of March, 1930, concerning the application of the weekly rest in industrial undertakings, and recommends the Executive Council to take the appropriate steps for its ratification."

The Convention provides that there should be a period of rest of at least 24 consecutive hours in every period of seven days. At one time we were rather reluctant to ratify this Convention, because we were not quite clear as to the situation here. But we put queries to the International Labour Office explaining the situation where we found there was variation that to our mind seemed to be in a slight degree a breach of the Convention, and their position is that the practice here is quite in line with what the Convention involves. There is one thing that we possibly lack. There is no general provision which would lay down suitable penalties for non-compliance, but we can get that attended to if necessary. The practice is in accordance with the Convention.

Mr. Corish

I think that is a very important matter. Take the case of the seamen. I know a case where a boat is at sea for weeks and the men at work the whole week.

Mr. McGilligan

This is industrial undertakings.

Mr. Esmonde

Would a tramway company come in under that heading?

Mr. McGilligan

I would say yes. I am not sure, but I think so. I think Article 7 of the definition of industries would cover either the making of a tramway line or the transport of people on tramway undertakings.

Mr. Corish

If the Minister agrees that tramway workers come in, would not bus drivers also come in? I think this is a matter that needs far more attention than the question of driving trams. We know that the hours worked by these men are very long and I do not think that any of these bus drivers gets twenty-four hours' rest in a week.

Mr. McGilligan

Not twenty-four hours' rest in seven days?

Mr. Corish

I am quite satisfied they do not on some buses. That I say is responsible for so many accidents in buses.

Mr. McGilligan

They will have to come in. The important matter that I rely upon in the statement for the purposes of this Convention is the term "industrial undertaking," which includes the transport of passengers or goods by road, rail or inland waterway. That is quite clear, I think.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. McGilligan

I move:—

"Go n-aontuíonn Dáil Eireann leis an gConvensiún so leanas dar leagadh cóip ar Bhord na Dála ar an 5adh lá de Mhárta, 1930, i dtaobh lucht oibre dúthchais agus lucht oibre iasachta do chur ar aon dul maidir le cúiteamh do lucht oibre as tionóiscí, agus go molann don Ard-Chomhairle na nithe is oiriúnach do dhéanamh chun a dhaingnithe.

That Dáil Eireann approves of the following Convention, a copy of which was laid on the Table of the Dáil on the 5th day of March, 1930, concerning equality of treatment for national and foreign workers as regards workmen's compensation for accidents, and recommends the Executive Council to take the appropriate steps for its ratification."

In this again we are advancing a little bit ahead of legislation. There is a workman's compensation code in draft. It would have been here only for the complication caused by a certain measure introduced last Session. It definitely will establish the law in line with the provisions of this Convention. We are only concerned here with the principle of equality of treatment as between national and foreign workers in regard to the principle of workmen's compensation.

Mr. Corish

Are death claims covered?

Mr. McGilligan

There may be details which are not covered—those we will go into, any details we can see which are contrary to the terms of the Convention. There may be difficulties, and there are difficulties as we see to be surmounted by legislation as to equal payments as between foreign and national workmen. But the principle of equality of treatment is the one we are founding it upon, and we are going to see to every detail of the legislation.

Mr. Corish

The reason I asked the question whether death cases are covered is because there is a certain amount of doubt as to what the procedure is, in so far as accidents at sea are concerned, where a man loses his life. I know a case of a woman down in Wexford whose husband was killed in Canada by a fall down the hold of a ship. Four years have clapsed since that man's death, but the thing is not settled yet. I am wondering if this legislation will speed up a case of that kind. It is a very important matter to know how the law stands as far as these people are concerned.

Mr. McGilligan

It would speed up the settlement of the case as between two countries, both of whom have ratified the Convention.

Mr. Corish

Has Canada ratified?

Mr. McGilligan

I think we have taken the step first. I do not think Canada has ratified.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. McGilligan

I move:

"Go n-aontuíonn Dáil Eireann leis an gConvensiún so leanas dar leagadh cóip ar Bhord na Dála ar an 5adh lá de Mhárta, 1930, i dtaobh gléas do bhunú chun tuarastal minimum do shocrú, agus go molann don Ard-Chomhairle na nithe is oiriúnach do dhéanamh chun a dhaingnithe.

That Dáil Eireann approves of the following Convention, a copy of which was laid on the Table of the Dáil on the 5th day of March, 1930, concerning the creation of minimum wage fixing machinery, and recommends the Executive Council to take the appropriate steps for its ratification."

This last has to do with minimum wage fixing machinery, and in regard to this we have legislation.

Mr. Corish

You do not use it.

Mr. McGilligan

We use it too much, I think. There may be difference of opinion. As to the machinery, in this matter the machinery in the Free State is the machinery of the Trades Boards Act. I agree we might apply the Trade Boards Acts to certain industries to which they are not now applicable, but we should also remove their application from certain other industries to which they are applicable. We might have consultation to see if there could be agreement upon that point. At any rate, so long as we have machinery which establishes some method of fixing a minimum wage we are definitely in line with the Convention, and we have legislation here.

Question put and agreed to.