Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 16 May 1930

Vol. 34 No. 17

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 63.—Wireless Broadcasting.

Minister for Lands and Fisheries (Mr. Lynch)

I move:

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £66,386 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana, dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1931, chun na dTuarastal agus na gCostaisí eile a bhaineann le Fóirleatha Nea-shrangach.

That a sum not exceeding £66,386 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1931, for the Salaries and other Expenses in connection with Wireless Broadcasting.

Parliamentary Secretary to Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Heffernan)

The full amount of the Estimate for the Broadcasting Service for the financial year 1930-31 is £75,386, which represents an increase of £48,876 over the year 1929-30. Of this increase, £47,700 is for the proposed central high-power station to which special reference is made later; £890 for programmes and £286 in respect of various minor items.

The receipts last year from licence fees amounted to £13,355, from the import tax on wireless apparatus to £30,700 and miscellaneous receipts £40, making gross revenue of £44,095 and net revenue, after deduction of cost of collection at 10 per cent., of £39,686.

Mr. Briscoe

Might I point out that the Minister in proposing the Vote mentioned £66,386?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a very ancient mistake. The Parliamentary Secretary is correct.

Mr. Heffernan

Total expenditure on the Broadcasting Service amounted approximately to £28,259 so that there was an estimated gross surplus of £11,427. Of this amount, about £3,000 must be regarded as a set-off on a commercial account basis for interest on capital and provision for depreciation, leaving net estimated surplus of £8,427. All these figures are subject to such minor alterations as may be necessary when the various accounts have been closed.

The number of licences issued last year was 25,269, showing a decrease of 756 as compared with the previous year. This decrease is probably mainly due to a fall in the number of crystal sets in use not being overtaken by an increase in the number of valve sets. Most people who begin with crystal sets hope eventually to get valve sets, so that the number of valve sets tends to increase continually and of crystal sets to fall. This is the case where the service afforded (i.e., the crystal range of the existing stations) remains unaltered. The slight setback in the number of licences is, however, regarded as only temporary and it is expected that it will soon be recovered and be followed by a steady increase. The extent to which evasion of payment of licence fees exists is problematical, but the question of taking further action, by legislation if necessary, with a view to enforcing payment of licence fees is under consideration.

The revenue of £30,700 from the Customs tax on wireless apparatus shows an increase of about £3,000 over the previous year. This tax provides the greater part of the broadcasting revenue. Policy in regard to the tax is a matter for the consideration of the Minister for Finance, but so far as the Post Office is concerned, there appears to be no present possibility of raising sufficient money for the broadcasting service by any other means.

The revenue for the current year, 1930-31, is estimated at £14,000 from licence fees and £30,000 from the import tax, making gross revenue of £44,000, or, deducting cost of collection at 10 per cent., net revenue of £39,600. Total expenditure on the Dublin and Cork stations out of all Votes is estimated at £32,000, leaving gross surplus of £7,600, of which £3,000 must be earmarked against interest and depreciation. This means that the Dublin and Cork stations, i.e., the service at present operated, should produce a surplus of about £4,500.

Broadcasting being a State undertaking there is an obligation on the State to provide so far as possible equality of service for all the population. Such obligation is the more imperative when private enterprise is not permitted to provide a service. The Dublin and Cork stations were not erected with any hope of providing a service throughout the entire Saorstát. They were intended to give a local crystal service only, with further developments in view.

Of the total population of approximately 3,000,000 only about 700,000 or 23 per cent. are estimated to reside within the range of crystal reception of the Dublin and Cork stations. The use of a valve set is necessary at distances of over about 15-20 miles, and therefore reception on cheap sets is available to less than one-quarter of the population. Moreover, owing to the location of the Dublin and Cork stations, reception even on valve sets is difficult in parts of the country owing to inadequate signal strength or the incidence of the phenomenon known as "fading."

The best possible service having regard to the technical problems involved could be provided by a central high-power station. A station of 60 kilowatts aerial power, such as it is proposed to erect, would, it is estimated, afford good reception on crystal sets to about 2,200,000 or 75 per cent. of the population, and good to fair reception on simple valve sets to a considerable number of the remaining 25 per cent.

It is expected that reasonably good crystal reception from the high-power station will be practicable within a radius of 80 miles; beyond that up to 90 or 100 miles good reception on valve sets is anticipated. At distances over 90 miles from the station "fading"—i.e., coming and going of signals—is likely to occur. On this account good reception even on valve sets may not be possible in some parts of the extreme southwest, west and north-west seaboards. It is hoped, however, that the latest technical developments may help towards overcoming this trouble, but the position of the Department is that constant good reception cannot be guaranteed in advance in these areas.

The wave-length of the Dublin station, 413 metres, is suitable for a high power station, and it will be utilised for the new station.

Apart from the question of affording crystal reception to the majority of the population, the erection of a central high-power station is likely to become necessary in order that a service of any kind worth the name could be given. Broadcasting development in Great Britain and European countries generally is in the direction of high-power stations. Great Britain is erecting six twin wave high-power stations, Germany, Sweden, Norway, Italy already possess stations of 50 or 60 kilowatt power, and several other such stations are in course of erection or are projected. The signals received in the Saorstát from these stations, although not constant (i.e. subject to "fading," etc.), are of considerable strength, and as the number of these stations increases reception of the Dublin and Cork stations becomes more difficult except in fairly close proximity to these stations.

The all-in capital cost of the high-power station, it is estimated, will be between £70,000 and £75,000. The actual cost within these limits must depend upon realisation of necessarily approximate estimates for buildings and equipment. It is quite certain that the higher figure will not be exceeded. Moreover, of the total capital expenditure £12,500 is for Customs Duty on plant, etc., so that the actual total cost of the high-power station will be between £57,500 and £62,500.

Of the total estimated capital expenditure, the amount provided for in the current financial year 1930-31 is £50,700, made up of £47,700 in the Broadcasting Estimate and £3,000 in the Estimate for Public Works and Buildings, leaving a balance of approximately £20,000 to £25,000 to be voted in the financial year 1931-32.

The annual charges are estimated at about £9,000 in respect of interest on capital and depreciation, and £11,000 on running and maintenance costs. So that additional annual revenue of £20,000 will be required to cover the recurring charges.

Minimum estimates of revenue at saturation point allow for a revenue of £65,000, or, deducting cost of collection at 10 per cent., net revenue of £58,500. Deducting from this amount of £58,500 the total expenditure at the present rate on the Dublin and Cork Stations of £34,500 shows increased revenue of £24,000 which will be sufficient to cover charges of the high-power station with some thousands over for programme development.

On a commercial basis the Broadcasting Service has an accumulated surplus of £13,500, so that there is every likelihood that it will pay its way in the future and, perhaps, continue to produce a surplus.

Station Orchestra—A proposal for an increase in the numbers of the Station Orchestra is at present under consideration. Symphony Concerts—Four Symphony Concerts were given by the 2RN Symphony Orchestra during the past winter season. The public concerts were discontinued owing to lack of public support.

Other important broadcasts during the year included five concerts of the Dublin Philharmonic Society, two operas by the Dublin Operatic Society, and ten operas by the Station Opera Company. Also concerts of the Waterford Oratorio Society, the Waterford Musical Society, and the Sligo Musical Society.

A special feature of the programmes last year was the broadcasts in connection with the Catholic Emancipation celebrations in the Phoenix Park and at Cashel. The programmes also included descriptions of the Dublin Horse Show Jumping Competitions, the Phoenix Park Motor Races, and many hurling and football matches, Gaelic, Rugby and Soccer.

Talks Programmes—The question of development of the Talks Programme is under special consideration, and it is hoped to arrange for lectures over a more varied range of subjects next winter.

The market reports broadcast include daily Stock Exchange report, weekly report from the Trade Commissioner in Great Britain, weekly bulletin supplied by the Department of Agriculture, London Provision Market, Salford Cattle Market, etc.

The question of special Schools programmes has been under consideration in conjunction with the Department of Education for a considerable time. The success of schools programmes depends upon the installation of receiving sets in primary schools throughout the country. No definite steps can be taken to promote such installations pending the erection of the high-power station as the kind of set required and, therefore, the cost, will depend upon the service given by the high-power station. The question will, however, be fully considered in the meantime.

The co-operation of the Department of Education in arranging an Adult Educational Talks programme has been sought. News Service— The arrangements for the news service have been recently revised and a better service is now being given. Foreign Relays—A number of experimental relays of foreign programmes were carried out during the winter and the results were on the whole successful. Inclusion of such relays as regular programme items must be deferred pending arrangements with foreign stations in regard to re-transmission rights.

Mr. Moore

Before the discussion starts would the Parliamentary Secretary say who is finally responsible for the artists selected? Has the Director at the station the right to veto the artists selected by the Musical Director? Has he the final right to say who will perform or not?

Mr. Heffernan

The Station Director has the final say, subject, of expenditure on the salaries of course, to the ratification, if necessary, of the political head of the Department. Naturally the political head does not interfere with the selection of artists for the programme, but he has the right to interfere if he so desires. In regard to musical items there is a Musical Director who is subject to the overriding authority of the Station Director.

Mr. Moore

Then we are to take it that the Broadcasting Station is a one-man show, that the Broadcasting Director decides what items will be given, except representations are made presumably to the Parliamentary Secretary by a person who is not satisfied?

Mr. Heffernan

There is an Advisory Committee in existence but the final decision rests with the Station Director. It must rest with somebody.

Mr. Lemass

There are a few remarks which I desire to make in connection with this Estimate. Looking over the figures, one is struck by the fact that the proportion of the total expenditure which is proposed to be spent on programmes appears to be very low, even when the estimated costs of the new high power station are taken out of the accounts. I took the trouble of comparing the figures for the wireless broadcasting service here with those for the service given by the British Broadcasting Company. I find that of the total expenditure in Britain 65 per cent. is spent on programmes but only 45 per cent. of the total expenditure here is devoted to the same purpose. On the other hand, seven per cent. of the total expenditure in Britain is paid in salaries to officials whereas 28 per cent. of the total expenditure here goes to the same purpose. On the maintenance of plant the figures are: 19 per cent. in Britain and 10 per cent. here. For overhead charges, such as rates, office accommodation, etc., the figures are 9 per cent. in Britain and 17 per cent. here.

It is probably inevitable that the officials should be proportionately higher here than in England in consequence of the smaller nature of the service, but the difference appears to be very great—so great, indeed, as to suggest that the station here is over staffed if the service in England is taken as a criterion. That we should spend proportionately four times the amount on salaries of officials than is found necessary in England seems to suggest that some revision in that direction is possible. If such revision was effected it would enable the amount spent on programmes to be increased to a point nearer to the proportionate amount spent by the British Broadcasting Company.

I have no doubt that the Parliamentary Secretary is aware that there is considerable dissatisfaction with the general nature of the programmes. Undoubtedly very good artists and very good performers have been engaged occasionally. The complaints which are current, however, are to the effect that a lack of originality is shown in selecting the programmes and a lack of variety in the nature of the items provided. The Parliamentary Secretary has just stated that the station director is solely responsible for the nature of the programmes and for the artists selected to perform. Amongst the complaints which I have heard very frequently are statements to the effect that one particular artist of no great ability who happens to be a relative of the station director is given undue opportunities of performing, while other artists of known and recognised ability, who have made application to be allowed to give performances, have not been asked to do so. It has been alleged that one must be a friend of the station director or in a position to influence a friend of the station director to get a chance of performing.

Undoubtedly it is possible that these complaints are exaggerated, because the persons who are rejected by the station director always attribute that fact to causes other than their own lack of ability, but at the same time, if the Parliamentary Secretary will go into the matter, he will find that persons whose ability to give performances has been recognised by the number of engagements they have received at concerts and similar functions, have not been given opportunities of performing at the wireless station, whereas other performers of questionable ability appear frequently, even though in some cases letters have been written to the Press appealing to the station director to keep them off. The Parliamentary Secretary told us that the estimated number of licences to be issued in the coming year is less than the actual number issued last year. I notice from the Estimate that the receipts anticipated from licence fees are £14,000 as against £15,000 last year. I do not know whether the falling off in the receipts from licence fees is to be attributed to the programmes or not, but it seems peculiar that this reduction in receipts from licence fees should be expected to take place in the year in which a new high-power station will be erected and commence to operate. The case for the high-power station is that the service will continue to be a paying one even after it has been constructed, because in addition to the surplus now available, the revenue from licence fees and import duties will be increased to cover the additional outlay.

There is another item on the Estimate regarding which we want some information. That is the estimated receipts of £50 from advertising. I do not know to what extent wireless stations have been used for advertising, and if it is intended to develop the practice of using them for that purpose to any extent. Undoubtedly the revenue of the station could probably be considerably increased if facilities for advertising were given, but I doubt if the popularity of the station would be increased as well. In fact, in the United States practically the only source of revenue of the various privately-owned stations operating there is advertising. Either advertising through the wireless station should be definitely banned or, if not banned, should be developed upon some pre-conceived plan. I do not know what the present arrangement is, but I would like to be informed. Are facilities only given to a limited number of advertisers or is it generally known that commercial firms can, if they so desire, advertise their goods through the wireless station? Personally, I would prefer to see advertising definitely kept out of it altogether, because those who are compelled to listen-in to the Dublin station, because of their inability to get other stations while it is in operation, want to hear whatever programmes are offered and not the merits of somebody's pills or somebody else's boots.

The decision to establish a high-power station is a wise one, and, as was pointed out by the Minister for Finance in his Budget statement, an inevitable one. In view of the state of the revenue of the service which, as the Parliamentary Secretary told us exceeds by £4,500 the total expenditure, the only alternative to the establishment of a high - power station would have been a reduction in fees or duties, but the decision to establish a high-power station is right, because there are quite a number of people not wealthy enough to afford valve sets who would be glad to instal crystal sets if the facilities were offered to them. In that connection I want to direct the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary to complaints which have been the subject of correspondence and articles in the Press concerning the method of charging on portable receiving sets. Originally the arrangement was that a 10/- licence would cover all wireless apparatus in the home, whether there were one, two or three sets—crystal, valve or both. Some time ago there was a new order issued by the Department to the effect that the fee for a licence for the possession of a portable wireless set should be 10/-, but that such licence should only be issued to a person who had already secured a licence for an apparatus of the fixed variety. The arrangement works out in such a manner that a person owning a portable receiving set must take out a licence for a set he has not got, before he can get a licence for the portable set. There seems to be no justification for that arrangement whatever. I do not think that the Parliamentary Secretary has increased the revenue of the service in consequence of that arrangement. The portable receiving set is very hard to detect in actual practice, and the owner need not pay any licence fee if he does not want to. He is not encouraged to pay by this ridiculous arrangement which compels him in the end to pay double fee. I think that that order, issued by the Department of Finance, should be revised and the fee upon portable sets made the same as on all other forms of receiving sets.

Mr. Briscoe

The Parliamentary Secretary has been unduly optimistic as regards the future of this Department. This is one of the very few Departments which the Dáil has had control of practically since its inception and the Dáil has the making or marring of the Department in its own hands. This Department is distinct from all other Departments inasmuch as it is entirely dependent upon the goodwill of the listeners and if there are no listeners this Department sinks. If there are plenty of listeners, the State will benefit. Yet it is the one Department where those by whom the State benefits are least considered. For a considerable period of time associations of listeners and individual listeners have been writing to this Department and expressing their views and trying in every possible manner to have their grievances met in some way, but they have been absolutely turned down by whoever controls the Department. The Advisory Committee of course is a joke.

The Parliamentary Secretary bases his calculations as regards the high-power station on the past. He forgets that when wireless was introduced it was something novel, that people took it up out of curiosity or as a hobby and very few took it up as an essential of the household. Last year the number of listeners dropped considerably. The Parliamentary Secretary has pointed out that there are 700 less licence holders at present than there were this time last year. He tries to argue that the explanation of that is that crystal users have now become valve users and refers to the increased customs revenue as an indication that his statement is correct. I want to challenge that and tell him that he is absolutely wrong. The increase in the customs revenue is due practically entirely to the importation of eliminators, most of which have been imported by the Electricity Supply Board to replace eliminators already in use in view of the change of the current in the Rathmines and Pembroke districts. If the Parliamentary Secretary thinks I am wrong in that he can get a special return from the Customs and Excise Department and he will find that there was a great number of eliminators included in last year's returns and that they account for the increase in customs revenue, and that it is not, as he says, due to the change over from crystal to valve sets. Last year I suggested to him that he should keep a record of crystal users as distinct from valve users and he stated that it was a good suggestion which he would adopt. He has taken great care to-day not to state what the proportions are; how many licence holders were crystal users last year and how many this year; and how many were valve users. These are the kind of particulars that we want on this Estimate rather than the hypothetical arguments put forward by the Parliamentary Secretary.

I am glad to hear that the Parliamentary Secretary is at last considering the question of an educational programme, particularly for the use of schools. I am particularly glad because it indicates that at last we are going to have afternoon programmes which will help considerably the people engaged in the wireless business who will by that means be able to test wireless apparatus for prospective customers which they have not been able to do up to the present.

Before entering upon a general criticism of the Estimate, I should like to ask for some information on certain points. In the Dublin station we have a station director. That would indicate to the public generally that he is a director who knows his business from all its angles. But if we look at the explanatory note given we find that this is a temporary position filled by a divisional inspector seconded from the Insurance Commission on a certain scale of salary. How is the public to have confidence in a station director selected in that way? Surely the director should be a permanent official selected because of his particular knowledge and experience which would justify his being appointed. Possibly next year some other Civil Servant will get a chance of being the station director for a period of twelve months, and we shall continue to have the experience of having directors who are not fit for the post. I say that the present director cannot be suitable for this post because of the proof before us in the shape of the criticism of, and general disatisfaction with, the programmes given and the whole system on which the Department is run. The station director and the assistant director get an allowance, and I should like to know what that is for. The musical director is a part-time appointment. I should like to know why it is not possible to have a competent director who could cover both these positions. Why should there be a director in the general sense and a part-time director for the musical programme at a salary of £400 per annum when as we know the musical end forms a very small part of the programme. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to consider the possibility of getting a good station director who could not only direct the general running of the station but who would also be competent from the point of view of being able to direct the musical programme. In addition to these officials, we have an announcer. The whole staff seems to be temporary and on probation, and I suppose will continue to be so, and the public possibly will continue being dissatisfied and never will get any satisfaction in regard to the programmes produced. The experience of last year's directors will not be that of next year's directors, and the result is that we shall never have a director or staff who will be able to give the public the benefit of continued experience.

The Estimate also provides for a news correspondent. I do not know whether he has been appointed yet, but his salary is provided for. In conjunction with the news correspondent, we have provision made for a news assistant, or is it that this news assistant is going to be promoted to be news correspondent? I cannot understand that part of the Estimate because the amount of news given certainly does not entail work for two individuals.

Mr. Heffernan

There is no sum for a news assistant this year. That was only for last year.

Mr. Briscoe

Is the news assistant for last year being made news correspondent this year?

Mr. Heffernan

Roughly it is the same thing, not the same man.

Mr. Briscoe

He is qualified?

Mr. Heffernan

It is the same thing.

Mr. Briscoe

Then the last did not qualify. This man is qualified, if only by experience?

Mr. Heffernan

That is a separate thing.

Mr. Briscoe

Now I come to the high-power station. The Parliamentary Secretary, only a couple of days ago, intimated that they had not yet decided on the site, that they were making experiments but that they had not yet satisfied themselves as to the site for the new station. These Estimates, I suppose, are based upon some knowledge as to where the station is to be located, otherwise they would not be able to say what the cost would be. We also have the personnel for the high-power station. Either the Parliamentary Secretary has already plans, and the site has already been located, and he is keeping the information back, or this is a haphazard guess at the whole thing, and should not be there at all, and should be introduced on a Supplementary Estimate rather than on the basis of this Estimate. They must know where their station is going to be. Possibly it may not be Athlone after all, but it might not be wise to announce that until after the election. I should not be surprised if I found that the high-power station is not going to be in Athlone, but I do not believe that the Minister or his Department would put down an estimate if they had no knowledge where they were going to locate the site, what class of buildings they were going to put on that site, and what the site was going to cost. As to the items for transmission—the electrical end of it —the same apparatus would do wherever the site was and that part of it could be very accurately estimated.

Deputy Lemass asked some questions with regard to the method of the selection of the artistes, and he suggested that in one particular case the performer must have had no other qualification for appointment than that she was a relation of somebody who was able to secure the engagement for her. I am inclined to think that there is too much patronage in that particular department, and I should like to throw out a rough suggestion for the Parliamentary Secretary to consider. The plays chosen for broadcasting have practically all been of an unsuitable type, and the productions from the point of view of the listeners, have not been at all attractive or satisfactory. The advisory committee may advise all right, but I feel that they do not do their duty and sit down and listen-in as they should, because if they had themselves listened to some of the plays before they were produced they would never have been broadcasted.

The same applies to the station director. I would make a suggestion in this regard to the Minister for Finance, and that is, that he should provide the Parliamentary Secretary with a crystal set and a pair of headphones, and sentence him to listen-in for a few nights. I do not suggest a valve set, because that is not the way to judge properly transmission or broadcasting, but if he listened through a pair of headphones, or if the director listened, I think there would very soon be a rapid change. All kinds of noises come through them that ought never be allowed to come through at all.

Now, with regard to the language lessons, I spoke about these last year also. I wonder if the Department of Education really think that a person listening through headphones or valve sets to the Irish language being read is going, in that way, to obtain an elementary knowledge of Irish. If I went to the station and read out English or German from a book, how many people would benefit from my reading in that way. If the Department of Education want to promote the Irish language by means of wireless they should, at least, find some other way of teaching it than by reading as is the case at the present time. I would suggest, first of all, that the Parliamentary Secretary should consider this matter from a business point of view. The upkeep of this particular Department depends upon the listeners. The State is making a certain small profit now, but licence-holders are falling off, and unless drastic changes are made, and unless they listen to the demands of those who pay—and, as has often been said, those who pay the piper have the right to demand the tune— they will find themselves compelled to admit a loss on this Department as on the Post Office Department. We want to avoid that, and it can only be avoided if the matter is taken up in time. I suggest, firstly, the appointment of an independent committee of inquiry, consisting mainly of representatives of listeners and potential listeners who have been lost or gone over to foreign stations, and disregarded 2RN and the Cork station by some new concoction that cuts them out altogether. Secondly, I suggest a programme committee to advise and, if necessary, to supervise the arrangement of the programmes independently. After all, the main business that should occupy the permanent officials is to see that everything is technically right, that the station is run properly, and that the State does not lose. They should understand this is not an essential service which can be regarded as if it were a matter of weights or measures, or of dollars or cents.

If a certain lady has been singing over the wireless broadcasting since its inception and if we are tired of her, then for God's sake give her a rest and get somebody else; and if there are three or four ladies whom we are tired of hearing and whom we feel are not worth listening to, let us give them a holiday and get someone else to do it. The third suggestion that I make is that the Abbey Players or the Gaelic Players (Dublin and Galway) be broadcast instead of the strolling or scrap companies or cliques who broadcast at present without any guiding principle in the matter of selection and production of plays. I make this further suggestion also that Sunday night's programme be discontinued from the Cork studio, as very few listen to it since it was first arranged and let us have the Dublin programme on instead. The Parliamentary Secretary himself admitted that certain outlying districts should be better catered for in the matter of reception. He admitted that they do not get good reception on valve sets from 2RN. Listeners in Kerry, for instance, cannot get 2RN on the valve sets, while London, Paris and Daventry come in quite audibly. If the Department's officials would experiment a little in this end of the business, on the technical end, and see what is wrong and show us how the reception could be got instead of experimenting with the artistes. I think the result would be good. Before I conclude I would like to read something the Parliamentary Secretary had before him already, that is, an extract from the "Sunday Independent," May 4th. It is headed "Realistic Programme," and reads:

"Irish listeners to the Daventry transmissions will be glad to hear that ‘Intimate Snapshots,' by Lance Sieveking, is to be heard again in the B.B.C. National programme of May 12. In this ‘argument between two people,' as it is called, special arrangements have been made as regards the underground scenes and the newspaper office scenes, and the listener will find it almost impossible to believe that the actors are not in an underground station, with electric trains passing all the time, while the thudding of the printing presses will take him into the heart of Fleet Street. Why could we not have an equally imaginative programme from the Dublin station? Although the general quality of the Saorstát programmes may be said to have improved, I have not yet noticed anything out of the ordinary in the way of imaginative programme presentation. It is not merely a question of money—or the lack of it; encouragement should be given to artistes to submit original ideas for programmes. In fact, I think that the authorities should be prepared to pay for good suggestions, which could afterwards be developed by artistes chosen by the director. Constructive work is necessary. If we wait for something to turn up it is ten chances to one that we will wait in vain."

That is signed by "Electron." I will make a final appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary. I made an appeal last year and the year before and certain other Deputies joined me in that appeal. My suggestion is: let the listeners have representation so that they will be able to decide and argue how to get improved programmes, and they will be able to get something novel in the shape of programmes. Last, but not least, it is absolutely imperative to get decent artistes who would be worth listening to and who will not be tiring on the listeners and thrown aside with the exclamation: "Thank God that is over." I believe that the Parliamentary Secretary, if he adopts those suggestions, will not be disappointed with his hopes in regard to the additional revenue to the State when this new power station has been erected, and that people who have ceased to be listeners will take out licences again. I believe that benefits will accrue from having such a committee as I have suggested, and there will be advantages all round. I make that final appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary, and I believe if he really looked into the matter from the point of view of the difficulties of the present or past Advisory Committee he will find that it would be far better to leave the technical end of the business to the Department's officials, but that the programme should be left entirely to the Advisory Committee, on which representation could be given to associations and listeners generally.

Mr. Aird

I listened with much attention to the statements made by Deputy Briscoe, the Parliamentary Secretary and Deputy Lemass. I think that certainly the Parliamentary Secretary is to be congratulated on this Vote because he has shown very clearly to the House that broadcasting in the Irish Free State is paying——

Mr. Briscoe

Was paying.

Mr. Aird

Is paying, and that it will pay better in the future. This new high-power station which has been mentioned by the Parliamentary Secretary will give an opportunity to the people in the country to get cheap crystal sets and in that way, within a distance of eighty or ninety miles of the station they can get a good reception. Consequently, that would mean that if a good site is selected, a site pretty centrally situated in the country, the people in the middle and western part of the country would be able to have the advantages of the wireless through the use of crystal sets. In that connection, I would like to impress upon the Parliamentary Secretary that Birr is the most centrally situated part of the country. Then again, from the point of elevation it has an advantage as compared with other centres such as Athlone.

Mr. S. Jordan

Birr is being lifted now, anyhow.

Mr. Aird

It has an elevation of 280 feet as compared with 160 feet for Athlone. As far as Birr is concerned it has advantages over all other sites. I would like again to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on this Vote.

Prionnsias O Fathaigh

Bhí dlúthbhaint agam leis an gCoimisiún a cheap an Clár Nua i gcóir na meadhon scol. Do cuireadh tuairim is ocht bhfóchoistí ar bun chun an obair a dheunamh, agus orra san bhí an Coiste um Cheol. D'iarr baill an Choiste sin orm rúnaidheacht a dhéanamh dóibh, cé gur beag eolus atá agam ar chúrsaí ceoil. Is amhlaidh a impidheadar orm-sa réidhteach a dheunamh eatorra toise go raibh ag teip orra teacht ar aon tuairim. Bhí fonn oibre orra go léir agus cheapadar clár maith acht tuigim ón am sin a dheacracht is tá obair stiúrthóra an chraolacháin. Bíonn éad agus formad idir ceoltoirí agus idir amhránaidhthe freisin. In a dhiaidh sin is uile, is 'é mo bharamhail go mba chóir athrú a dheunamh ar na artistes ó am go ham. D'fheudfaí seans a thabhairt do níos mó de na h-amhránuidhthe binne a chloistear ag an bhFeis Cheoil. B'fhéidir go bhfuil eirighe in áirde in gcuid acu agus go mbeadh táillí ró mhór ag teastáil uatha.

Maidir leis an nGaedhilg, tá amhránuidhthe fíor-bhinn i gCo. na Gaillimhe—cailín orra nach bhfuil a sárú le fagháil le binneas ná le Gaedhilg agus ní bhfuair sí caoi go fóill amhrán a ghabháil tríd an gCraolachán. Os rud é go raibh £400 d'fhárr is barr ann i mbliana níor mhisde a thuille airgid a chaitheamh ar amhránaidhthe do sholáthairt.

Táim ar aon aigne leis na Teachtaí a mhol an Stáisiún Nua atá le cur ar bun ar ball. Is mór an gar é do na daoine bochta nach bhfuil acht an gléas éisteachta is simplidhe acu. Is annamh a cloistear clár Atha Cliath go soiléir i nGaillimh. Níl fhios agam céard fáth; deirtear gur ar an ngléas scaipithe atá a locht san. Tá brigh éigin leis an méid a dubhairt Riobáird Brisco, Teachta, fá roinnt chomhachta a thabhairt do lucht éisteachta maidir leis an gelár acht ní dóigh liom gur ceart an iomad chomhachta a thabhairt dóibh.

Mr. Goulding

I must protest against the cruel suggestion made by Deputy Briscoe that the Parliamentary Secretary should have something to say to the fixing of the programme. If the Parliamentary Secretary had been down in my part of the country he would have a terrible experience. Deputy Fahy tells us that in Galway it was impossible to hear the programme. We can hear the programme sometimes in Waterford but we hear it very badly. It is not because the programmes are bad that we complain, but that the method of transmission is bad. It is not so much the programmes that we complain of in Waterford as the transmission. I was very glad to hear from the Parliamentary Secretary that more attention has been given to educational programmes. I would suggest when the new station is erected the headmasters of the secondary schools should be approached and a suitable series of lectures and talks of an educational nature arranged. What I am trying to get at is this—those of us who listen occasionally to other stations hear lectures from eminent people whom we would never have a chance of hearing except for these opportunities. Really one gets very valuable information and one gets inside knowledge into matters that one would never have a chance of hearing otherwise, were it not for wireless.

If suitable lectures were arranged for schools it would be of great benefit to education. As far as the primary schools are concerned I really think it might be too early to start. As it is, the primary school programmes are too crowded, and there is no use in inflicting further information on the pupils. With regard to the musical side of the programmes, as Deputy Briscoe said, those who pay the piper should be entitled to call the tune, but I think it would not be advisable to give way to them too much. In some of the British stations they carried out a plebiscite of listeners. That was right. Speaking of the present programme, I think there is too much light music being broadcast, and I think an effort should be made to create a better musical taste amongst the people. If we adopt the plan of catering always for the lighter side of things we will fail entirely from an educational point of view. Every effort should be made to improve the taste of the people by a system of suitable lectures on music and the provision of the lighter class of good music. I know that inflicting heavy classical music on people all at once has a rather disastrous effect, but it could be led up to gradually by lighter classical music and by a course of instruction from people competent to give it.

The question of language lessons was dealt with by Deputy Briscoe. I must say that when I did get Dublin I found the Irish language lessons particularly well done. A lady whose name I cannot remember gave very good language lessons. If they are to be continued when the new high-power station is in being I am sure that they will be appreciated all over the country. Deputy Briscoe reminds me that perhaps I appreciate them because I happen to be a speaker of the language, but I do really think that the teacher was very good. If I happened to be a mere beginner I think I would have thoroughly appreciated her work.

Sets are being dismantled here and there throughout the country, and the people who own them are being threatened with prosecution even though they prove they have dismantled their sets. It is not fair that people should be worried in that way. Surely it should be possible for the local postal officials to ascertain if the sets have been dismantled and if the aerial is down. Threatening people with prosecution is carrying the thing too far.

Professor Thrift

Deputy Briscoe's criticisms were so obviously extreme that I will not make more than one or two remarks about them. I do not agree with him that the station staff are slow to take suggestions. My experience has been that they are quite ready to consider suggestions; I found them so on many occasions. I do not agree with Deputy Briscoe that broadcasting is on the down grade as regards popularity. If it is so in the Free State I think you will have to ask yourself the question why. It is not on the down grade in popularity in other countries. One has only to see the way the licence revenue is growing elsewhere in order to satisfy one's self about the matter. Deputy Goulding and Deputy Briscoe were very much on the spot when they said that trying to do two contradictory things in the past in our broadcasting programme was not advisable. We are trying to slice in educational features with what must be, as an evening programme, something more of an amusement kind if it is to satisfy the popular demand. If you try to spoil the entertainment side of the programme in the evening with educational features you will undoubtedly cut off a large number of listeners. If you try to slice in that educational feature at a time when people are much more disposed to look for entertainment, very often a lighter kind of entertainment in the evening after they cease work —I refer to the great majority of the people and not to members of the Dáil—it is bound to diminish the popularity of broadcasting. If you try to mix the entertainment character of the programme with educational features to more than a very slight extent you will find that the programmes will diminish in popularity.

There is a great deal to be done yet in testing the educational value of broadcasting. Personally I believe it is of great value if done properly, but I think it will have to be done at special times if you are to get value out of the educational parts of the programme. You will only succeed in spoiling both parts if you try to mix them up. If you were to get the view of probably 90 per cent. of those who listen-in to broadcasting I believe they would tell you that you are making a mistake in forcing Irish on them in the midst of their entertainment. No doubt there are a few enthusiasts like Deputy Goulding who can profit by it. My belief is that they are very few, and if you want to give your instruction in languages I think it should be done at special times when those who want to learn the languages can pay attention to them and get real instruction without interfering with the entertainment that you are trying to give to the far greater proportion of those who pay licence fees. I am not speaking against the cultural value of the entertainment. That cultural value may be quite high if the programme is properly chosen. Instead of turning it into something the great majority of the people do not want and will not listen to, the broadcasting programme should be made more popular. Undoubtedly up to the present the greatest proportion of listeners have not been crystal users. I am strongly in favour of the high power station, and the sooner we get it the better, because I think the result of it will be the introduction of a great number of crystal sets throughout the country districts, and there, I think, the value of a properly chosen entertainment will be very high indeed.

There I think the cultural value of a properly chosen entertainment will be very high but I rise simply to try and emphasise a point which I believe is of importance. We cannot do two contradictory things at the same time. In the evenings give an entertainment programme, and give your instruction at separate times to those who want that instruction and who will tune-in in order to listen.

Mr. Gorry

I am glad that the future of wireless is going to be assured in this country by the erection of a high power station. It comes as very good news to-day when the Parliamentary Secretary cannot hold out very much hope to us in the rural areas that a reduction in the rate for the transmission of wires can be hoped for. I am certainly in agreement with Deputy Thrift and others that there will be a great demand for crystal sets in the country districts when a high power station is established. In that respect I wish on behalf of my colleague, Deputy Boland, with whom I was discussing this matter yesterday, to say that sympathetic consideration should be given to Birr as a likely centre. He give me figures. Unfortunately he is not able to be here himself to-day, but with regard to Birr and Athlone he has given me figures, which he secured in the Library. The altitude of Birr is 281, and that of Athlone is 179. In the British regime Birr was the centre of the Royal Observatory. When the British selected Birr as a centre for the Royal Observatory they must have had some good reason. I put forward those points for consideration when the site is being selected and if it is selected already I hope Birr is the place.

Mr. Heffernan

Deputy Lemass, speaking on this Vote, gave some comparative figures as to the apportioned cost of the programmes, the overhead cost, etc., in the B.B.C. as compared with 2RN. Having given those figures Deputy Lemass himself practically acknowledged that they were justified. The reasons are quite obvious. The overhead and operation expenses must naturally be higher in a service where the total revenue is low compared with the service where the total revenue is high. That is the situation existing in the Free State services as compared with the B.B.C. Similarly the programme expenditure is almost necessarily bound to be much higher proportionately in a State where the revenue is high as compared with a State where the revenue is low for the reason that the surplus after operation and overhead expenses have been paid is bound to be greater in the country where the number of listeners is very large as compared with the country where the number of listeners is small. The obvious remedy for us is to provide a high power station, thereby extending the number of listeners and extending our revenue. Our estimates are that the proportion of this expense mentioned by Deputy Lemass will in future alter to our advantage and be more in conformity with the situation existing in the B.B.C. stations.

On the question of the programme perhaps it would be well to group the various statements made by Deputies and to endeavour to deal with them all together. There were certain criticisms from Deputy Lemass and Deputy Briscoe with regard to the attitude of the present station director towards the engaging of artists and it was suggested, if not actually stated, that he shows favouritism in the selection of artists who are to broadcast from 2RN. A charge of that kind is very easy to make and very difficult to disprove. A person who has charge of an artistic institution of this kind and who has in his hands the employing of or the refusal to employ a considerable number of artists and who is obliged to make selections is bound to incur a considerable amount of unpopularity on the part of those who are not selected or who do not get as many engagements as they would like to have. I am not prepared to accept for a moment that our station director has been partial. It seems to me that a charge of that kind should be proved. If it is proved there is only one remedy for it, that is, to dispense with the services of a station director who would be guilty of such conduct. But I have no evidence and have seen no indication to prove that such is the case. It is bound to happen, that certain people will feel they do not get a fair show, and in a matter of this kind of selection on artists' merits it must depend to a large extent on the personal predilections of the station director, that is, on his judgment of what is good and what is bad.

I personally would hesitate to over-ride his views in that direction and for that reason I have not interfered with the arrangements as to the employment of artists to any appreciable extent or perhaps to any extent at all. I may have intervened, and, in fact, I have intervened and discussed the question of the general construction of a programme, but with regard to the particular employment of artists, so long as we have a station director in whom we place reliance, we must leave that work to him. I would say if Deputies feel they have glaring cases with regard to the non-employment of suitable artists they will get my personal attention and I will look into them, but I do not believe that such a charge can be proved.

Deputy Briscoe entered into some semi-personal details of the qualifications of a particular station director whom he discovers on examination of the Estimate is seconded to us from the Insurance Commission and therefore is not suitably qualified for the position he has undertaken. Possibly the Deputy has not gone to any particular trouble to ascertain the qualifications of the director in question because, if he had gone to some trouble he would find that he was selected because of certain particular and specialised qualifications. He has in addition a general knowledge of subjects which are essential for programme construction. It is a peculiarly difficult and onerous position and is very hard to fill. He has to deal with a great variety of subjects and he has to have a general knowledge of all those subjects and to have a specialised knowledge in certain directions. I do not agree with Deputy Briscoe that if we are to select civil servants haphazardly that we are likely at all to get a suitable station director.

Mr. Briscoe

Is this station director suitable for unsuitable?

Mr. Heffernan

The station director is suitable. He would not be kept in the employment if he were not.

Mr. Briscoe

Why is he not made permanent?

Mr. Heffernan

The whole institution is on a semi-permanent basis so far. He is not permanently established so far. I think the Deputy will find that all the employees are on a temporary basis. Deputy Lemass dealt with the question of licence fees. He pointed out that the estimate for licences for the coming year is less than the estimate of licence fees for last year. That is so, but the estimate for licences for last year was not reached; the number of licences was less than we anticipated. But the estimate for licences this year shows an increase on the number of licences that were taken out last year.

The question of advertising was raised by Deputy Lemass. He called attention to the fact that the small amount of £50 was secured from advertising. He wanted to know if there is a definite policy in regard to advertising and if any consideration has been given to the extension of advertising with a view to increased revenue. The question of advertising from 2RN was very carefully examined and we have an advertisement policy. We charge certain fees for advertising. It was found in practice that we were unable to get any advertising work of any considerable volume. The number of people who are prepared to pay the necessary fees for advertising is very small. The number of people appealed to is so comparatively small as not to pay people for paying high fees for advertising. We simply keep in existence the right to let certain time for advertising purposes. On certain occasions we may be called on for advertising announcements, but the number is very small as shown by the total revenue accruing from advertising.

Mr. Goulding

Would the Parliamentary Secretary consider the advisability of cutting out trade advertisements altogether, apart from advertising functions such as national functions?

Mr. Heffernan

Trade advertisements have practically cut themselves out. I think it would be unwise definitely to lay down a regulation cutting them out. There may be some development in the future. The general policy in this country is that the broadcasting station must pay its way from the licence fees or revenue duties and we are not expecting to get revenue to any appreciable extent from advertising. I was rather surprised to hear Deputy Lemass speak in a vexatious way of people being compelled to listen to Dublin, evidently suggesting that the programme was not of a desirable or an attractive nature. I express surprise at that in view of the general policy of Deputy Lemass. I would expect if Deputy Lemass and his Party had control of the broadcasting station that they would compel people to listen-in to Dublin.

Mr. Briscoe

We would certainly compel you to listen to it.

Mr. Heffernan

That would be their policy. There was a question as to the fees charged on portable sets. Additional licence fees are charged on portable sets for some technical reason which existed at the beginning of the broadcasting. It was thought desirable to charge an additional fee for portable sets. The position has been reconsidered in view of the increased number of portable sets in use, with the result that the Department recommended to the Department of Finance that a demand for two licence fees from one person in regard to a portable set should not be made in future. We have secured the consent of the Department of Finance in that respect, and I hope shortly that only one fee will be charged in regard to portable sets.

Deputy Briscoe made a number of suggestions, particularly with regard to alterations in the programme arrangement. I want to say that I appreciate the amount of interest that Deputy Briscoe has taken in the matter. To a certain extent it has been a helpful interest. While I do not agree with a great many of his criticisms, I still think that criticisms of that kind are helpful, and I only wish that other Deputies would take a similar interest in our activities. I do not agree, however, that an advisory association of listeners is a thing that is feasible or desirable. It is generally conceded that you cannot get consensus of opinion in regard to the programme that the public really want. Listeners will disagree among themselves. The best you can hope for is that those who are in charge of the station will endeavour to find out through the various channels at their disposal—the letters which they receive, personal communications and conversations with people who take an interest in the matter—the programme that they consider the most acceptable generally. Having ascertained the type of programme which they consider is the most acceptable to the general public, they must not always be prepared to give them exactly what they want. I think it should be the policy of those in charge of the power station to keep a step or two ahead of the desire of the general public in regard to the type of entertainment they are looking for. I would like to point out to the Deputy that we have an Advisory Committee, and that an attempt was made to make it representative of as many sections of the public as possible, including listeners. The Advisory Committee is therefore representative of listeners, and I do not see any reason why a special committee of listeners should be set up to give us advice. At the same time, I see no objection to a committee or association of any class of listeners discussing programmes and making recommendations. I assure the Deputy that very serious consideration will be given to any recommendations coming from them. I would also suggest that it would be well for listeners to set up local debating and listening societies. If they are prepared to do that we would be willing to co-operate with them and try to put on items on programmes that would suit debates and discussion in these local societies.

Deputy Briscoe was anxious to know whether, from the number of licences issued, we had any information as to the number of valve sets and crystal sets in use now as compared with the previous years. All the information we have is to the effect that 25,269 licences were issued last year. Of that total 17,183 were in respect of value sets and 8,086 were for crystal sets, the respective percentages being 68 for valve sets and 32 for crystal sets. Last year was the first year in which these figures were taken, and for that reason it is impossible to present a comparative statement.

Mr. Flinn

I would like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary if he is in a position to state how the value sets are distributed.

Mr. Heffernan

I have no information on that point.

Mr. Flinn

It would be very interesting if we could have figures to show how one-valve, two-valve, three-valve sets, and so on, are distributed.

Mr. Heffernan

I am not sure whether it would be possible to get such figures. Deputy Briscoe referred to the decrease in the number of crystal set users and the increase in the number of valve set users, and asked if any explanation could be given for that. It is very difficult to give a reason for that, but the fact is that there was a slight decrease in the number of crystal set users. The general tendency amongst listeners-in appears to be to start with a crystal set, and when they have been using that for some time to drop it and get a valve set. That practice, I think, brings about the situation that in proportion to the total number of licences issued the number for crystal sets will be less than the number for valve sets. Our estimates in the future will not be based altogether upon the present number of licences. We must take into consideration, of course, the conditions that exist in other countries. In porportion to population, the number of licences taken out here are less than the number taken out in other countries. For Northern Ireland the figure is 24 per 1,000 of the population; in Denmark 88 per 1,000 of the population, and in Great Britain 67 per 1,000 of the population. We think that we are fairly safe in the estimate we have made as to the number of licences that will be taken-out here when the high-power station is established.

Deputy Briscoe's suggestion that there should be a general director for all classes of broadcasting, the one man being responsible for the musical as well as for the other portions of the programme, is not one which, I think, could not be accepted, because specialised knowledge is required in our musical director. Our musical director is not only responsible for all the musical items in the programme, but also for the training of the members of the orchestra as well as of the artistes who take part in important items such as symphony concerts and operas. A great deal of his time is taken up with work of that kind. Such a man must necessarily have a specialised musical training. It does not follow that a man with specialised musical knowledge would also be the most capable man in other directions. In passing, I think it is only right that I should express appreciation of the very valuable work that has been done by our present musical director who, while only a part-time official, is giving a great deal of his time to the musical side of the station programme. I think there is a general feeling that that side of our programme has been very satisfactory.

Deputy Briscoe also asked a question with regard to the news assistant. The position in that matter is that we had a temporary news assistant employed up to some months ago when we entered into an arrangement which we believe is likely to result in a more satisfactory news supply. That system is being tried at present. The amount which the new system is likely to cost is shown in the vote. It is approximately the same as what the old arrangement cost. We believe that our news item has improved as a result of the change made. I do not say that in any sense that could be construed as derogatory of the work done by the former news assistant. What I do say is that the present system is more satisfactory than the one we had in the past.

I am glad that the decision to establish a high power station has met with the general approval of the Dáil. Deputy Briscoe seemed to be of the opinion that we had actually selected a site for the station and that the cost of it was included in the Estimate. If the Deputy looks at sub-head E he will find that it does not mention the cost of a site at all. As a matter of fact the site has not yet been selected. Various places have been inspected, but personally I have not yet seen the reports of the inspectors who made those inspections. One consideration, but not the main consideration with us, is that we should get a suitable site costing the least possible sum. With that consideration in mind, we naturally look out for a site on some Government property. The inspections that have taken place so far have been in towns where Government property, which would be available, exists. That does not mean that we are tied down definitely to accepting a site on Government property. It is quite possible, but not probable, that because of other reasons we may find it necessary to get a site that is not on Government property. The present position is that the whole matter with regard to the site is still open for decision.

Deputy Briscoe referred to unfavourable comment on the plays we are broadcasting at present. He suggested that plays produced in the Abbey might be broadcast. Personally I am inclined to express the opinion that perhaps the weakest spot in our programme are those radio plays. Some of them, I believe, are good but quite a number are not first class. It must be remembered that the circumstances with regard to the broadcasting of drama are peculiar. We are constantly putting on new plays. That is because, in the case of a broadcasting station, you cannot repeat plays time and again. You must put on new plays almost every time. It should be remembered, too, that for broadcasting purposes the play must generally be written specially. The remuneration for the production of broadcasting plays is not very large, particularly in this country, and consequently our choice is rather restricted. We are paying special attention to that matter. We hope that, by insisting on thorough rehearsals and so on, to be able to produce a better type of play in the future. I believe that negotiations are being entered into with regard to the broadcasting of Abbey plays. Deputy Fahy suggested that some of the Feis Ceoil prize-winners might be got to broadcast. Speaking from memory, I believe it was the custom for those taking part in the Feis Ceoil prize-winners' concert to broadcast. I think that was done last year, but I am not sure whether arrangements have been made to have that done this year.

Mr. Fahy

What I suggested was that those who get first or second prizes at the Feis Ceoil might be invited to broadcast and be heard more frequently than at present if their fees are not too high. I know, of course, that in the financial sense some of them have exaggerated ideas of their own importance.

Mr. Heffernan

We do not select our artistes solely because of the fact that they happen to have been Feis Ceoil prize-winners, but on examination I think it would be found that many of our artistes first won distinction as Feis Ceoil prize-winners. I undertake to give consideration to the suggestion made by Deputy Fahy in the matter of getting Irish singers from Galway to broadcast. Deputy Goulding also mentioned that the reception was not always good. There are certain technical difficulties with regard to reception in Galway and other places, including Co. Waterford. The establishment of the high power station will remove these difficulties. Some Deputies have complained that they cannot get any station but Dublin. Waterford will be in a very satisfactory position when the high power station is established because it is in a suitable part of the country in relation to the high power station.

As to the quality of the programme and the amount of time given to the various items, an interesting point was mentioned by Deputy Thrift in regard to the educational side of the programme. Deputy Thrift suggested it was unwise to mix the educational features with the entertainment side, and he considered that the educational parts of the programme should not be put on when the people were anxious to listen to the entertainment items. Deputy Thrift is to a large extent correct in that, but on examination it will be found that the educational items are put on before the entertainment side begins. For instance, the language lessons are on at 6.30 or 7 o'clock. Generally speaking, we put educational subjects on at an hour when people are not listening-in for entertainment. The educational programme is a wide one. Many things may be educational without being definitely so described. I believe that talks on certain subjects are education to an extent. I hold that in so far as the educational value of broadcasting is concerned people receive education and instruction without being conscious of the fact, and so far as the definitely educational items are concerned they take up but a small part of the time allotted to the programme. I am not now dealing with programmes for school hours. That is a matter which is being considered by the Department I represent and the Department of Education. As to Deputy Goulding's suggestion with regard to confining such a programme to secondary schools, it has not been started in any schools so far.

Deputy Briscoe made unfavourable comment on the language lessons, and favourable comments were made by Deputy Goulding. We do not think that the language lessons in themselves are sufficient to enable any person to learn a language, and we consider that such lessons are only supplementary to other efforts to acquire a knowledge of a language. It is quite obvious that that is so when regard is had to the amount of time devoted to the subject, the method of instruction, and considering that there can be no conversation between the instructor and the listener, but we believe that such lessons are very helpful as a supplementary part of language studies. We do not know to what extent they are followed. We are prepared to cut out some of the present language lessons if there is a general consensus of opinion they are not acceptable. Deputy Gorry and Deputy Aird are anxious to have a broadcasting station in Offaly, but, as they can gather from my general remarks, the whole question of a high-power station is still a matter for decision.

Mr. Briscoe

Am I to take it from the Parliamentary Secretary's remarks that listeners, whether individuals, groups, or societies, will be able to make representations to him, that they will be considered, and that where definite disapproval of certain items and certain programmes is expressed that will be considered? I appreciate the manner in which the Parliamentary Secretary accepted the criticism I made in the matter, but I hope he will not think badly of me when I say that I am in hopes that his idea of broadcasting entertainment does not coincide with his idea of education. He says that persons receive education without being aware of the fact.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not a question.

Mr. Briscoe

The Parliamentary Secretary did not state that there is to be afternoon broadcasting. I would like to have a statement from him about that.

Mr. G. Wolfe

I would like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary if he has ascertained what the effect of the establishment of the high power station will be as regards the reception of foreign stations. Will that high power station definitely shut out all stations but the one? There are many people who like to hear foreign stations. Some of them have extremely fine programmes.

Mr. Heffernan

In answer to Deputy Briscoe, I may mention that we are under a disadvantage in regard to educational and entertainment items, as we have only one station. It is generally accepted that where financial considerations allow there ought to be two stations, so that the listeners can change from one programme to another—that is, if there are educational items on one programme those who do not want them can turn to the other and vice versa. Owing to our financial resources being restricted, we are limited to one station and, therefore, we have to compromise on this matter. In reply to Deputy Wolfe's question, with regard to the effect of the high power station, that is a matter to which we have given consideration. Within a radius of ten or fifteen miles of the high power station it will be very difficult for listeners with any kind of a set to get an outside station, but taking into consideration the fact that the radius that will be affected in that way covers a sparsely populated portion of the country the proportion of the population that will be affected will be comparatively small.

Mr. Wolfe

That is as regards foreign reception?

Mr. Heffernan

Yes. Outside the fifteen miles' radius there will be another belt where the reception of foreign-stations can only be got with a selective set, and again outside that particular radius there will be a general radius belt where the reception of foreign stations will be as easy, and sometimes easier, than at present. It will be easier to get foreign stations in Dublin and there will be less interference.

Mr. E. Doyle

In view of the fact that practically the only form of entertainment open to the blind people is that provided by the wireless. I would like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether he will abolish the fees on sets for these people or reduce them?

Mr. Heffernan

No licence fee is charged to a blind person. A point was raised by Deputy Goulding which I forgot to deal with. I may say in reply to him that it is practically impossible to differentiate between a set in working order and a dismantled set. A set may be dismantled to-day and working tomorrow. The taking down of an aerial does not mean that the set cannot be at work next week. The person who has a set in his possession has to pay a licence fee. People who have sets that they do not intend to use should destroy them or hand them over to some blind person.

Vote put and agreed to.