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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 3 Dec 1930

Vol. 36 No. 7

Supplementary and Additional Estimates. - Vote No. 70—Relief Schemes (Resumed).

The Dáil went into Committee on Finance and resumed the debate on the following motion:—
"That a sum not exceeding £300,000 be granted to fulfil the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1931, for contributions towards the relief of unemployment and distress" (Minister for Finance).

There is something paradoxical in the fact that the Minister for Finance allocates at this juncture the sum of £300,000 for the relief of unemployment. It is paradoxical because of the fact that the President in his opening address this session told the Dáil, and through the Dáil the country, that we were in a position that practically no other country in Europe was in, that our credit was good, our prospects were good, that for us the sun shone, that every little cloud had a silver lining, and that the goose honks high. Two weeks after that the Minister for Finance proposes a grant of £300,000 to relieve unemployment and distress. Either the President, when making those statements regarding our prosperity, was a liar or a fool, or the Minister for Finance was giving something that was not required at all. I leave it between the President and the Minister to choose which is which. If the President was right in his statement that this country was a prosperous country, that everything should be viewed through rosy spectacles, then there should have been no necessity at all for the Minister to make this grant in order to relieve distress and unemployment. Since the Minister has persisted in allocating this grant, the only conclusion I can come to is that the Minister does not agree with the President that this is a country fit, for heroes to live in, and that this country should not be viewed through rosy spectacles. There is a division on the Government Front Bench.

The President, in making his speech here, said that they did not praise themselves. He said if there were any little defects in his Party or in his Government he could leave it to Fianna Fáil to find out and to point out those defects. He said: "We do not pose; everyone knows our imperfections and perfections, and if they do not know them the Party opposite takes the earliest and the greatest possible opportunity to show them what they are. But they always harp on the one string—imperfection." Why we harp on the one string is this: that where we see imperfection we point it out. If we attempted to point out perfection on the part of the Government we would certainly steal the thunder of some back benchers of the Government Party. We would steal the thunder, for example, of Deputy Sheehy, who comes along with a fine flow of sunburstry and tells the Government what great little fellows they are. He comes along and pats, figuratively speaking, the Minister for Finance on the back. He tells him what a grand little Minister he is. He says that the Minister, out of the generosity of his heart, has given the country £300,000 with which to relieve unemployment and distress.

Listening to Deputy Sheehy, I was a kind of muddled because I could not quite gather what status to give to the Minister. Deputy Sheehy thanked God for the fact that this country was not as other countries. He said that we had no earthquakes or famines or other things of that kind, and I was inclined to believe that the Minister for Finance had actually taken the part of some superhuman being and prevented earthquakes from visiting the Saorstát. In the next breath, when the Deputy told us that the Minister was giving this grant of £300,000 to relieve unemployment, I thought that the Minister must be some sort of magician, that he must have some kind of an Alf's button or magic carpet whereby at a word or the pressure of a button he could conjure up pounds and pounds ad infinitum in order to relieve the poor people of the Saorstát.

The President wonders why we point out their imperfections. We do it in order to preserve the equilibrium of that little microscopic speck of grey matter that I hope is contained in the cranium of each member of the Executive Council, seeing that they are subject to the fulsome flattery of the back benchers of Cumann na nGaedheal. Deputy Anthony referred to this particular grant and said it was dope. I disagree with Deputy Anthony in that. If that grant were dope it would have the effect of laying to sleep, if I may put it that way, all the pains and aches of all the unemployed and of all the destitute in the Free State. If it served the purpose of dope for the Saorstát, those people would then be like Tennyson's Lotus Eaters, not wanting to get out of the particular heaven created by that dope.

I characterise this particular grant not as dope for the whole body politic, but as a local anaesthetic applied to those particular people who were adherents and supporters of the Government. It has absolutely no effect, outside a particular clique or coterie who happen to support for the moment the Government in power. It was typical of the mentality of the front bench of the Government that the Minister for Industry and Commerce attacked Deputy Moore when this debate was on last Friday, and attempted to hold Deputy Moore responsible for the action, the ideas and the thoughts of some people who happen to employ Deputy Moore. I say that is a typical example of the mentality of the front bench of the Government. They have been in the habit, by those grants they have made for unemployment and for relief of distress, of doling out these moneys to particular partisans of the Government, and they have imagined that because they dole out this dope, if you like, or this local anaesthetic, every man who participates in it or in any of this grant should be bought heart and soul by the people who are doling out that particular money. That is what they have been accustomed to. All the Minister succeeded in doing, in his attack on Deputy Moore, was to establish the fact that the Deputy could not be bought heart and soul because he happened to be employed by any particular person or persons. That is what the Minister succeeded in doing in the case of Deputy Moore—that though he was employed by certain people he still preserved his own separate entity and still kept to himself his own mind, his own heart and his own soul. I would have expected more from the Minister than to try to establish that Deputy Moore should have taken part in anything of the nature of the Minister's own particular type of mind. Deputy Moore is not capable of it. That is all that the Minister succeeded in establishing to any right-minded person.

When we criticised this grant like the other grants that have been made periodically for the relief of distress and unemployment, we were accused of not rendering anything to the debate that should help towards solving for good and all the problem of unemployment. Time after time since I came into this House I have listened to suggestions that have been put forward here that would have made not for temporary alleviation of the distress in the Free State but for practically the permanent solution of the question of unemployment and destitution. In that time I have heard from the front benches the silliest arguments put up that were ever listened to in any responsible Parliament in the world against the ideas that came from these benches for the relief of distress and unemployment. Time after time Deputies on this side of the House have suggested means by which the people of this country would be enabled to get employment in their own country instead of having foreigners making products that were imported into this country and that should have been made at home by our own people. I have seen case after case put up to deal with unemployment. I have heard proposals for tariffs and prohibitions that would have enabled the people of this country to be employed in their own country. These suggestions if acted on would have cut down the adverse trade balance that is the béte noir of every Minister in this House.

Not alone is this the bugbear of Ministers, but it is the old-man-of-the-sea around the necks of the people of the country, and no responsible Minister can say that up to the present he has been able to find a definite solution of the problem. Time and time again I have seen cases put up whereby the people of this country could be supplied with commodities that we utilise in the Twenty-six Counties. I have heard replies from Ministers in connection with these matters that would not be accepted from a schoolboy. The Minister for Local Government, when faced with the fact that the Corporation of Glasgow were using Irish slates in their building schemes, said that the type of houses erected in Glasgow were different to those erected in Ireland, that they used smaller slates than we did, and that, in consequence, they were able to use the Killaloe slates, which the people of Ireland could not, hence the houses were roofed with tiles imported from Belgium. That is one instance of the single-track mind of the Government. They were not capable of changing the plan of the houses in order that the contractors might use our own slates, although the Corporation of Glasgow could do so. All that was necessary was a few lines drawn on paper to have men working in the Killaloe quarries, yet the Government were not capable of seeing that these few lines were drawn.

Time after time I put a question with reference to the use of our own stone from Mountcharles and elsewhere for building purposes in this country. But the Government cannot find time for these things. They must get stone from Portland, and then they come forward with their solution of the whole problem by providing £300,000 for the unemployed. They had to do the same last year, and still we find the population decreasing.

I heard Deputy Reynolds when these schemes were proposed last year asking for a grant for the construction of a road out of Arigna coalfields. Deputy Reynolds got up with his head in the air and, like an old war horse sniffing the battle from afar, he asked why is this road not built. The Minister calmly and coldly told Deputy Reynolds that road would not be built, and Deputy Reynolds, instead of rearing the head of the old war horse, bent his neck to the yoke of Cumann na nGaedheal. Developments might be carried out in the Arigna coalfields and permanent jobs provided for hundreds of men, but the Government had not the time nor the money to build the road through the Arigna fields. They told Deputy Reynolds that could not be done. It was a very small suggestion for the relief of unemployment, not of a temporary, but of a permanent nature.

There have been pleas for tariffs on flour and everything that might have tended permanently to the relief of unemployment, but the Government had no use for these except it suited themselves, and unless they had their fingers in some particular pie, and when it is a question of saving that by means of a tariff or something else.

The President may talk about the state of our credit. Deputies on the Cumann na nGaedheal Benches may eulogise the Minister for the steps ho has taken towards the relief of unemployment, but no matter how they eulogise him or talk about our prosperity the fact remains that they have to come along year after year and give grants for the relief of distress and unemployment, although when they go to banquets they tell distinguished visitors that this is a land flowing with milk and honey. If the Minister imagines he has done something for which he should be clapped on the back by giving this grant I hope he has been disillusioned before this. If he has not been I would like to point out now that, so far as I and my Party are concerned, or indeed anybody else who has any idea at all in regard to the country, that the Minister is not merely not entitled to a pat on the back, but is deserving of condemnation along with the rest of the Ministers for having made the present state of affairs possible.

Although we may owe very little money, and have natural resources to keep over and above twice our population, although we have withstood time and trouble and tests for 750 years, and even although the President and his colleagues have tried to beat the country to its knees, still the country's head may be bloody, but it is not bowed. We are not pessimists, nor dismal Jimmies, nor Weary Willies, nor anything like that. We know the resources of the country and what can be done with them, if we had the proper people to do it. It is the greatest test of optimism that we can say the country is still alive after eight years of administration, of Cumann na nGaedheal. We are a great country. If we were not, we would not be alive at all; we have good resources, and we have pointed, out how those resources might be used.

Time after time it has been pointed out in this House how we could make the most of our opportunities; how we could make the most of the resources that he to our hands, but Ministers have, after eight years, in spite of the nice things they say at the different fine parties they have attended, to grant £300,000 for the relief of distress and unemployment in the Free State. The President and Ministers can take it from me that every distinguished visitor that comes to the country knows perfectly well, in spite of the banquets, in spite of all the fine feeds that have been prepared for them, that this country is not as the President would have us believe, and the very fact that they have to reduce the representation because the population has decreased, and that they have had to come along repeatedly, year after year, with their grant for the relief of unemployment, is sufficient condemnation of the administration of Cumann na nGaedheal.

I do not know that since I became a member of the House I have ever listened to a more uninteresting, ineffective or hypocritical debate than that which has taken place on this Vote. What was the position when the Government introduced this Vote? There was present amongst every Party in the House the hope that the Government would be able to provide a grant to relieve unemployment and distress during the coming Christmas and winter season. Almost everybody in the House believed that the amount would be somewhere about £50,000, but some of us were optimistic enough to expect £100,000. Instead of that the Government came along and for once took their courage in their hands and promised £300,000 for this deserving object. What was the effect of that? The Fianna Fáil Party and the Labour Party got the shock of their lives—a shock from which they have not yet recovered. It has done more to force them into a coalition than anything else that has taken place in this House. As the immediate effect of it, we had the bloated plutocrats who loll on the Labour Benches and the multi-millionaires who lounge on the Fianna Fáil Benches exclaiming "What is £300,000? It is a mere pinch of snuff—a mere drop in the ocean." As Deputy Carney has said, it is dope; it is money which no decent follower of Fianna Fáil will touch, because it is only intended for supporters of the Government, and I presume no member of the Labour Party will have any hand, act or part in it. That is the attitude with which the shock they got from the Government has been taken up. I hope Deputy Carney will, at all events, have the courage, and that his Party will have the courage, to carry to its logical consequences the announcement which he has made and that they will have no hand, act or part in this.

Speaking on behalf of the working men whom I represent and as a working man myself, I look upon £300,000 as a very substantial sum, which cannot be sneered at or put as lightly aside as the Fianna Fáil and Labour Party have put it. It is nothing to sneer at. It is a very substantial sum for a small country to put up during a time of great need. Deputy Byrne told us the other day that the unemployed of Dublin had already been dealt with by the Dublin Relief Bill, but for some unaccountable reason which I have been unable to understand he suggested that because of that they should get a large amount of this grant. They have already been fed by the Dublin Belief Act, and the suggestion is that they should now get a surfeit as a result of this grant. I do not follow that. On the seaboard at present there is no doubt that there are districts in which very considerable want exists. That want arises as the result of various things: the agricultural depression, the loss of our sea-fishing industry, and the loss of Christmas cheques from America which have in the past largely contributed to tiding over the lean season. I have already seen letters coming here from America which would bring tears to the eyes of anyone reading them, letters from girls in New York and elsewhere regretting that the usual Christmas cheque will not be forthcoming through no fault of their own. One of the most pathetic letters I ever read was from a little girl who at the end of it wrote: "You know, mother, I gave ten dollars a short time ago for a newspaper they are about starting in Dublin in order to create a free Ireland," and because of this she is unable to send the usual Christmas cheque. We have heard a good deal from Fianna Fáil Deputies about tariffs, which they say are the cure for all ills. I would put a prohibition on American cheques, and I would say that no American cheques should come into this country from our poor emigrants save those intended for the natural source—the parents and the families who are starving. I wonder would Fianna Fáil agree to a prohibition of that sort?

A Deputy

Why are they starving?

Will the Deputy state whether he was of the same opinion thirty years ago?

Mr. Wolfe

I was of the same opinion thirty years ago as I am today.

I thought so.

Mr. Wolfe

Along our seacoast there is very grave distress. In the Berehaven peninsula there is a grave danger of acute want followed by tragedy, such as occurred there before if the matter is not attended to at once. The people there, even though they may be supporters of Deputy Carney, will have no objection to doing an honest day's work if they get an honest day's pay, no matter whether it comes from the Government or not. On the island of Cape Clear, and adjoining islands, the people are in such a state that if something is not done for them at once there will be grave danger that something in the nature of a tragedy will occur. Other districts are not as badly off, but there are districts even around the fishing town of Kinsale where relief can be granted at once by attending to one of the most needed works in the County Cork, the road from Cork to Kinsale. The road from Cork to Kinsale at present serves one of the most important tourist districts in our country, and also one of the poorest districts. In the Clonakilty district tourists are cut off from some of the finest parts of the country for want of a road. The people around the seaboard want work and the work is there, reproductive work—work that should be done, and could be done, if funds were available. I hope that something will be done along the seacoast, so that those people will be able to take their Christmas dinner in peace. I should say that I hold no brief for the Government. I am not going to throw any bouquets at them, but I do most respectfully suggest to the House that it is putting it rather far for a representative of Fianna Fáil to say that because the Minister for Finance took his courage in his hands and introduced a Vote of £300,000 for the relief of the poor and unemployed at this time of the year, he must, by reason of that, be deemed to be a person possessed of a low mind.

May I put a question to the Deputy?

The Deputy is not a Minister yet. However, I will hear the question.

Deputy Wolfe has stated that this £300,000 is, in his opinion, a very substantial sum. Will he give us a rough estimate of what it would mean per person if it were distributed over those genuine needy and distressed people throughout the Twenty-six Counties?

That is a matter for argument.

We have been listening to debate for the past week as to how best this money could be allocated, and I suppose another few days will pass before either the Local Government Department or the Land Commission will have the permission of the Dáil to start work and to expend this £300,000. Deputy Cassidy, in his speech, dealt with all the materials that could be utilised in this country in the building industry. I have heard other speeches of the same kind here time and again for the last five years. He stated that slates were going to Glasgow which would not be used by the Government in this country. The Deputy or any other Deputy can look at the specifications for any Government contract, and I will ask him to point out one item which can be produced in this country that is not set out in that specification. I would ask him to point out any work done, either by contract or by direct labour under the Board of Works or any other Government Department, in which it is not specified that materials produced in this country must be used as far as possible.

What about, the stone in the Four Courts?

Mr. Brodrick

Now we are coming to it. If Deputy Cassidy says that we should have Irish limestone instead of Portland stone, I would like to ask him what is the difference between the price of Irish limestone and Portland stone. I know that Deputy Cassidy is a great friend of labour, and that he would like to see as much money expended in building as is possible, but I would like to remind Deputy Cassidy that if Irish limestone were used in preference to Portland stone there would be much less employment given.

That was not the excuse put up by the Parliamentary Secretary.

What about Irish granite?

Mr. Brodrick

If we are going to use Irish granite and Irish limestone in all cases, do the Labour Deputies know what is going to happen? You are going to cripple the building industry once and for all. Our people at present want buildings for which they are able to pay. A person does not want a building costing thousands of pounds when he has only £400, £500 or £600 to pay for it. I heard a Deputy some time ago ask why we should not have timber windows which would be made at home instead of steel windows which he said were foreign made. I wonder did that Deputy know that timber windows are made abroad also, and that all that happened was that they were both assembled in this country.

I have been anxious for the past week to offer some suggestions as to how best we might spend this £300,000. I have heard suggestions that it should be expended on waterworks and sewerage works. In connection with sewerage schemes and water works, when we had a Relief Vote three or four years ago, local authorities were invited to put up certain schemes. These schemes in many counties meant an expenditure of several thousand pounds. I know of one instance in my own constituency in which ten schemes were put up and out of the ten schemes the local authority carried out two. The local authority were aware that they would get a grant of 25 per cent., but the only people who benefited from the schemes really were the engineering profession who prepared the plans and specifications. It has been suggested that the Government should pay the full estimated cost of each scheme, but I think unless you have the co-operation of local authorities you cannot carry out these works. In rural areas, particularly at present, owing to the approach, I suppose, of the County Council elections next June, you have pumps being erected at every cross-road, everybody knows the reason, but unless there is cooperation you cannot have these schemes carried out. Unless the local authorities are prepared to strike a rate of ½d. or 1d. in the £ per annum, to create a fund and to contribute say about 25 per cent. of the cost of these schemes out of that fund, with probably another 25 per cent. grant from the Government, it will not be easy to carry out these schemes.

The trouble at present in rural districts is that the areas of charge for carrying out such schemes are too small, and that the rate would, therefore, be too high. In one county a rate of a penny brings in about £2,000 per annum. If such a fund were started, it would not be many years until a number of small towns and villages would be provided with water supplies and sewerage schemes. I wish to bring one matter under the notice of the Minister in regard to these works. Under the Relief Vote of four years ago, a great number of works were carried out. Some were finished, and some partly finished, and I would ask the Minister, when dealing with this Vote, to see that works carried out under the Land Commission at that time, which were not finished, should be finished with the assistance of this Vote, because, at the present time, these works are of no use, particularly roads into turbary. Owing to the bad season in several rural districts, the turf still remains in the bogs. Some years ago, roads were mapped out and an attempt was made to construct these roads, but they were never quite finished. They are now in a very bad condition, with the result that the turf this year still remains in the bog. I would ask the Minister to give that matter consideration when the grant is being allocated.

My chief reason for intervening in this debate is to correct a statement which is attributed to me in the Official Report of the proceedings of last Friday. I am quoted as having said, in answer to the statement of the Minister ("The Deputy also furnished, as Secretary of the Motor Trade Association, a document directed against the tariff")—"That is not so." If I intentionally said that, it would be untrue, and if I did say it, it was incorrect. All the written evidence from that source with regard to the application of the coachbuilders for a tariff passed through my hands.

I do not want to deal at any length with the strange contribution from the Minister for Industry and Commerce to this debate. I do not want to deal at any length with his remarks regarding myself, except to say that he has made as extraordinary a contribution to the proceedings of this House as any Minister has ever made. He has given his reason for the personal remarks directed against me in the following statement: "I regard it as quite relevant in view of Deputy Moore's attempt to suggest that the Chairman of the Tariff Commission signed a certain document when, as a matter of fact, he was not in Geneva at the time and could not have signed it." The Minister's method of defending his friend, of defending that civil servant, is to damage irretrievably the public character of that same civil servant, I ask the House to note the juxtaposition of the sentence I have quoted with this other sentence: "I understand that Deputy Moore was the man who made the most suggestions to Mr. Maguire, K.C., who was appearing against the tariff." That statement never appeared in the Press. From whom did the Minister get that information? When did he get it? If he got it at the time it happened, how does it come that he has kept it in cold storage for so long? The coachbuilding tariff has been discussed here so often that he would surely be tempted to come out with that information some time before this. Did he get it verbally? If he got it verbally, is it too much to suggest that it came from a civil servant? Is it too much to suggest that that civil servant is the late Chairman of the Tariff Commission?

It is a curious method which the Minister has chosen to defend the most prominent civil servant in this State. The most prominent civil servant in the State—the present Secretary of the Department of Finance and a member of the Currency Commission—is, by legitimate inference from the Minister's remarks, a political partisan, a party hack, a man who is prepared to brief one member of this House to make a personal attack on another. The Minister can congratulate himself on having made a most remarkable contribution to the debate. And all, I wonder, for what? Because "I have attempted to suggest that the Chairman of the Tariff Commission signed a certain document when, as a matter of fact, he was not in Geneva at the time and could not have signed it." Officially, I know nothing whatsoever as to whether he was in Geneva or not. This matter would never have cropped up a second time if it were not for the fact that the first time I mentioned it the Minister for External Affairs or the Minister for Industry and Commerce—whichever designation he prefers—impugned my accuracy and was quite satirical in doing so. He said, first of all, that the document I was referring to was not a free trade document, and then he asked where I got the information that the late Chairman of the Tariff Commission was at Geneva. Naturally, I had to support my statements. I produced the report. The name of the late Chairman of the Tariff Commission is attached to that report, and the Minister has not yet stood up and explained how it is that his name is there if he were not there. As to my willingness, if you like, to do injury to this civil servant, I stated twice last Thursday that since my statement I had got private information that the late Chairman of the Tariff Commission was not at Geneva. Surely that is as much as any Deputy could do. I need not have referred to that private information, but, in my anxiety to be just to that civil servant, I did so. Yet the Minister for Industry and Commerce is offended at this question being brought up. I think the real reason for his being offended is that he finds the document a very embarrassing one. There is every reason why he should. He makes that the excuse for this curious personal attack that he made on Friday.

I am not worried at all about his remarks. I admit I was fair game, in the circumstances. It is quite possible that any other Deputy in the House would have done the same towards a Deputy of an opposite party in similar circumstances. I am not worried as to the use he has made of the facts. The fate of Ireland does not depend upon it, but I do call attention to the extraordinary position the Minister is in now with regard to the most important public servant in the State—that he has provided the strongest circumstantial evidence that that civil servant has briefed him, not merely with regard to a party attack, but with regard to a personal attack. If I had definite proof he said what was stated here, I would have to use much stronger terms towards that same civil servant, because, as a matter of fact, the statement quoted is not correct. The statement that I was the man who made the most suggestions to Mr. Maguire, K.C., is not correct. I did not sit as near to Mr. Maguire as I am to the Minister for Education at the moment, and I do not remember that I had a single interchange with him during the course of the Tariff Commission sitting. The Minister for Industry and Commerce is, therefore, welcome to the glorious victory he won last Friday. If he acted with similar ability, similar logic and similar persuasiveness at the Imperial Conference, it is no wonder we have had such splendid results.

Mr. Jordan

I move to report progress.

The Dáil went out of Committee.
Progress reported.
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