Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 18 Feb 1931

Vol. 37 No. 2

Adjournment Debate. - Relief Grant Vote.

Mr. Kennedy

When the Vote for the relief of distress was introduced last November, the Government had great lip sympathy for the unemployed, particularly those in the rural districts. We were told by responsible Deputies on the other side not to be talking on this subject and wasting the time of the House, but rather to let the Vote go through, so that the work could be gone on with immediately, in order to relieve the prevalent distress which the Government speakers alleged was due to the bad season. If there was one thing apparent to-day in the reply which the Parliamentary Secretary gave to me, and the reply which the Minister for Finance gave to Deputy Davin, it was the insincerity of the Government in this matter. That was quite apparent to us when we coupled the evasive answers with the statement of the Minister for Finance when this Vote was being introduced, namely, that provision would be made at the end of the financial year, if this whole sum had not been expended, to carry forward the balance to be spent in the new financial year. In other words, at a time when unemployment is being relieved to some extent by farming work, for some reason the balance is to be carried forward and spent on the relief of unemployment which would not then exist to the extent which it existed during the winter months. The President, speaking on the matter, stressed the large amount of unemployment in the rural areas. We find from the answers of the Parliamentary Secretary that out of a total of £300,000 only £69,000 has been earmarked to be spent in the rural parts by the Land Commission. That is the sum that was to be spent, but it has not been spent. In contrast with that we have the following: In 1924-5, when £385,000 was spent on the relief of unemployment, £186,000 was spent by the Land Commission; in 1925-6, when £336,000 was spent, £137,000 was spent by the Land Commission; in 1927-8, when £101,000 was spent, £51,000 was spent by the Land Commission.

Deputies will recollect that in those years by the month of February most of that money had been spent. Work was started immediately after Christmas and was carried on through January and February into March. I have spoken to Deputies of all Parties in the House on the subject and I find that there has been practically no money spent up to now on the relief of unemployment by the Land Commission or by any other Government Department. We can, therefore, understand the Parliamentary Secretary's evasion in his answers, that he could not give the amount spent. It would mean a tremendous amount of work to make up what proportion of the £69,000 was spent up to a week ago, say. Neither could the Minister for Finance give the number of persons employed as a result of this grant. The gentlemen who leave that very perfect Department on a Tuesday to carry out their work in the various counties and return home at the weekend surely have time in their hard socialistic week from Tuesday to Friday to get the necessary information for the Parliamentary Secretary. The amount is so small that it would be a disgraceful answer to give in the House. It would be an indictment of the Government's absolute neglect of the unemployed and of their attempt to carry forward this sum, so that if an election is suitable in the Summer of this year this money can be spent in an attempt to bribe and fool the electorate.

I notice that in Westmeath we have got the very large sum of approximately £400. We are getting a slap for the slap we gave the Government last June. It is the smallest sum yet given out. Even so, I should like to know where the £400 is being spent or has been spent, whether in its allocation the Government have taken into account the most populated areas and the areas with the greatest number of small holders. Have they based their allocation on the returns of the census? Have they taken, for instance, the Coole electoral area where there is twice the population, twice the number of small holders, and three times the number of unemployed in any other area in Westmeath? I believe they have not and that they will not spend a threepenny bit there because they do not get any sort of vote there. The unemployed can exist on home help. Deputies who are on public boards and who have a knowledge of the conditions in the Free State know that the demand for home help is greater this year than ever before.

Memoranda galore has been sent up to the Land Commission and we are told to prepare schemes. We prepare schemes and so the matter goes on. Inspector after inspector is sent down. When all fruit fails and the work is obviously work that should be done and work that would give relief to the unemployed, we are asked next will the County Council maintain that work if done by the Land Commission. These questions were not asked in 1924-'25 or in 1927-'28. What is the reason of their being asked now? Where works have been started have all these stipulations been put up? I doubt it very much. I notice that notwithstanding the anxiety in this House to relieve unemployment in the rural areas £75,000 has been earmarked for the borough and urban areas to be administered through the Department of Local Government—a sum which is in excess of the sum given for the rural areas through the Irish Land Commission, which is not spent, but which is about to be spent.

After three months of doing nothing on the part of the Land Commission surely they should make some endeavour now at this late moment to get on with this work? They can have their election in April and have the gain of spending the money before it. But surely, in common humanity, in view of the serious unemployment, they should try and spend the money that they have at their disposal during the next six weeks, and not be scheming and shamming the way they have been since they passed this vote last November.

Mr. H. Broderick

Arising out of the unsatisfactory reply given by the Parliamentary Secretary, I must say that I heartily endorse every word which has been spoken by Deputy Kennedy. I represent the same constituency as the Deputy, and I must say that out of the scheme of work sent forward to the Land Commission by the Westmeath County Council, and I am sure also by the Longford County Council, very little work was carried out by the Department. I was in the Co. Longford last Sunday and made inquiries there as to the work carried out by the Irish Land Commission and I found very little had been carried out. I have a case in my mind, and I regard it as an unpleasant thing to have to mention it in this House, where a ganger employed in the County Longford on a scheme of relief work is an old age pensioner. There are also instances where sons of large farmers have been employed and where people for whom the work is intended do not get any employment. I do not hold that these relief works were not intended for small farmers. I visited a little town in the County Westmeath where a great deal of poverty exists and I have seen children there in their bare feet which I have not seen for years before. No work has been carried out there except a small system of drainage on a little river. The work carried out lasted about a fortnight and was finished last week, I am informed.

I do not make an appeal in this House for any particular town. I know that the town in which I live does not come under the Parliamentary Secretary's Department, but work entrusted to the Irish Land Commission to make bog roads and to carry out the drainage of rivers and land ought to be carried out in every little town in Westmeath and Longford. As far as I am concerned I do not make an appeal for any particular place. I do not care what Fianna Fáil or Cumann na nGaedheal are doing, but I myself have sent in several schemes to the Irish Land Commission and I have got acknowledgments from them. Land Commission inspectors have visited several of the places with which these schemes deal, but there are a number of cases in which the inspectors have not paid a visit to the area with which the schemes are concerned. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary now to take a note of these places and to send inspectors to these places that have not yet been inspected. In the districts concerned with a great many of these schemes a list of the unemployed in these areas has been submitted to the Parliamentary Secretary's Department. I would appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to have these schemes examined and to carry out the works in these areas that contain the largest number of unemployed at the moment. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will bear in mind what I have said. I have sent in schemes from several towns and villages in Longford as well as in Westmeath. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will send down his inspectors and see that as many as possible of these works are carried out in the immediate future.

Mr. Goulding

If I mistake not the Parliamentary Secretary when giving a list of the places or counties in which expenditure had been incurred under the Relief Vote made no mention of the County Waterford. I did not intend speaking at all on this matter, but a few days ago I got a petition from a small area in the county in connection with employment given by the Forestry Department. Local men complained that men have been brought in from outside areas to do this particular work, while in that particular area there are 80 unemployed men. They complain that it is not right that work in that particular district should be given to men brought in from other districts when there are so many unemployed in their area. Deputy Kennedy complained that only the small sum of £400 has been expended in his constituency, but my complaint is that in my constituency no money at all has been spent under this Vote.

Mr. Connolly

I do not know how Deputy Kennedy arrived at the sum of £69,000 allocated by the Irish Land Commission. He then takes it that that is the only money that is being expended. Deputy Kennedy was aware that this grant was available and he had an opportunity of informing his supporters that that was so. The Deputy was present at a number of meetings in his constituency, but he did not inform the people that the money was available. I do not know why. There may, however, be a reason for it. I have gone through the constituency and on every occasion I made it known to the public there that this money was available. We got a number of schemes submitted. I think in all there were 324 schemes or something like that number. I do not anticipate that all these will be carried out. I am satisfied that the sum which he alleges was left to the Department of the Irish Land Commission is not at all adequate. However, it takes a considerable time to inspect those works, to report upon them, and have them sanctioned by the Land Commission. So far as I know and I am familiar with the work in Longford and Westmeath, there are in operation at present approximately fifty works or schemes. That is not a very bad achievement in the space of a month or two. The number of men employed in these in Longford alone is 151. I am aware that there are a number of other works under consideration and I believe they are going to be sanctioned. A certain amount of money is going to be spent.

Now that is concerned with one Department and one Department only. I certainly think that a very large sum of money should be available and should be allocated by the Minister for Finance for these works and for this reason—that the money goes entirely on manual labour and thus gives the greatest amount of employment. This is reproductive work. One can always see after the expenditure of this money that something has been done and some benefit has been conferred on the district. The work that the Land Commission has been doing throughout the country has been very beneficial and it is very satisfactory work.

The Department of Local Government and Public Health are dealing with other schemes which mainly concern urban districts and towns in which town commissioners are functioning. A considerable amount of money was also allocated by the Local Government Department to these towns and districts. But that does not represent anything like the sum of money that is being spent on any one area. There is a further allocation of money under this relief grant and this money is going directly to the benefit of the farmers. I refer to the money that is being spent by the Department of Agriculture in which a great deal of labour is employed. A considerable amount of work is being done under that Department alone. I know that in one area £1,000 is being made available and the people of the country are taking advantage of the opportunity. I do not think that it is the fault of the Department of Lands and Fisheries nor the fault of the Government that more money has not been spent on the relief of unemployment in this constituency. As for the county council——

Mr. Moore

Would not the House agree to allow the Parliamentary Secretary to make a defence? Deputy Connolly has no complaint to make——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I take it Deputy Moore's point is a point of order. Deputy Connolly is certainly in order.

Mr. Connolly

There was a reference made that large farmers were employed on those relief works to the prejudice of the unemployed men in the district. I know perfectly well the conditions that obtain where accommodation roads are being made in a number of districts. The farmers are giving their labour and horses free so that the money that is available goes entirely to the unemployed men. That works out in this way that more unemployed benefit by the money available.

Mr. H. Broderick

There does not seem to be any relief about that.

Mr. Connolly

Owing to this arrangement money is being made available for the labourers that otherwise would not come to them at all. That money would otherwise go in payment to horse owners. That shows the spirit in which the people of the country are availing of the grant. I certainly think that a sum considerably larger than has been mentioned here should be made available by the Irish Land Commission to carry out the works and schemes submitted to them. But I think the money should go largely to the small class of drainage works. For instance schemes costing, say, £20, £30 or £40 should be dealt with preferably. In this way the money would be of more benefit to the unemployed. I know that the moneys already spent in Longford have gone very beneficially to the relief of unemployment.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputies should give the Parliamentary Secretary sufficient time in which to reply.

Mr. Moore

I think the Parliamentary Secretary ought to explain the curious circumstances by which a number of counties are not getting anything out of this Vote. It is surely inconceivable that there are counties where there is absolutely no unemployment in rural areas. I am particularly interested in one of these counties. It is a county in which over £16,000 is being paid in home help, and over 50 per cent. of that money is being paid to able-bodied men. Yet the Land Commission does not find that they are under any necessity to provide money there for the relief of unemployment. I understand that the two chief tests for getting work done out of this Vote are unemployment in the particular area and the social utility of the schemes proposed. In that county schemes have been put forward that would be of very great utility, for instance, schemes that would enable last year's turf to be saved even yet. Such schemes are badly needed. There is very considerable unemployment in the County Wicklow and I would like to have some explanation as to why the Land Commission does not find it necessary to spend any money there.

Mr. Allen

I would like to join with Deputy Moore in protesting against the delay on the part of the Land Commission in sanctioning schemes. In the county that I represent, there is a great lot of unemployment. Schemes have been put up that would be of great utility and yet they have not been sanctioned.

Mr. Roddy

These are all drainage schemes. In reply to Deputy Kennedy, I am yet at a loss to understand why he regarded my reply to-day as unsatisfactory. The Deputy's speech has not made it clear to me that my reply was unsatisfactory, and Deputy Broderick's speech did not help to clear the issue in any way whatsoever. The Land Commission, after all, is only one Government Department responsible for the expenditure of the relief grant. Deputies must remember that a big proportion of this money has been allocated to the Department of Local Government and Public Health, a big proportion has been allocated to the Department of Fisheries for the purpose of carrying out schemes in the Gaeltacht areas, a certain proportion has been given to the Board of Works, a certain proportion to the Department of Agriculture and certain proportions have been given to other Government Departments.

We have been allocated about £80,000 and approximately £60,000 of that amount has been already spent, while the rest of it has been earmarked for expenditure. It was made perfectly clear by the Minister for Finance, when introducing this Vote, that on this occasion he expected that the State would get full value for the expenditure of this money. It is perfectly true, as Deputy Kennedy has said, that a great deal of money was expended by way of relief under previous grants, between the years 1924 and 1928, but it must also be borne in mind that a good deal of that money was not spent to the very best advantage. There was quite a lot of very bad work done. On this occasion, at least so far as the Land Commission is concerned, I have taken particular pains to see that the work done under the Land Commission's portion of the relief grant, at all events, is up to a very high standard, that it is work that the Land Commission and the State will be proud of.

It is quite true that memorials have been received from many counties, including Wexford and Wicklow, with regard to certain works that would be of real utility in these counties. As a matter of fact, the Land Commission intend to do a certain number of these works, but it would be quite impossible for them to do all the work in respect of which memorials have been received. Memorials have been received from Waterford in regard to certain drainage work. I think Deputies will agree that this is not the time of the year to do any work on drainage schemes, that it would be uneconomic for any Government Department to undertake such work at this particular season of the year. Consequently, we have left these schemes over until the months of May, June and July. I hope that a certain portion of this money will be revoted after 31st March next, and we will be able to devote a portion of it at least to those works.

In reply to Deputy Kennedy on another point, as a matter of fact inspectors were not sent. No inspector was sent to report on certain works that we have undertaken in Westmeath, for the very good reason that these works were reported on at least two years ago. When we were in a position to spend money out of funds at our disposal naturally we arranged for these works to be undertaken. The county councils have always been asked to undertake responsibility for maintaining works on which the Land Commission spent money out of the Relief Vote.

Mr. Kennedy

They did not undertake it.

Mr. Roddy

Many county councils did.

Mr. Kennedy

Even if they did not you did the work.

Mr. Roddy

There is no use in the Land Commission spending a substantial sum of money on doing first-class work and then leaving it there knowing very well that the tenants themselves will not accept any liability for its maintenance. It is only by the county council undertaking responsibility for the future maintenance of such a work that it can be made a utility service to the country.

Mr. Kennedy

I wonder did the Longford County Council undertake responsibility?

Mr. Roddy

Longford County has already undertaken responsibility for maintaining certain work which we have carried out. We have also undertaken works in co-operation with certain of the county councils.

Mr. Smith

How could the county council undertake to repair these works? For example, bog roads. He has refused in certain cases to allow the county councils to do this work.

Mr. Roddy

As a matter of fact, county councils will not undertake responsibility for work which they should themselves carry out. I have during the past three months received memorials from county councils in respect of works which should properly be undertaken by the county councils themselves, as a matter of fact, works which they are statutorily responsible for.

Mr. Smith

That was only after the Minister had sent them an order, when they could not strike a special rate for the purpose.

Mr. Roddy

I do not know what order was sent out. In many instances, the county councils are trying to push their responsibility on to the Land Commission. We have only undertaken works of real utility. We are not prepared to carry out for the county council or anybody else——

Mr. Kennedy

Would the Parliamentary Secretary undertake if I get the county council——

Mr. Roddy

I will undertake no work unless I am satisfied from the reports of my inspectors that it is a work of real utility and real usefulness.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 3 p.m. on the 19th February.