Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 6 Mar 1931

Vol. 37 No. 10

The Adjournment. - Cléireach do Thogha i gConamara.

Proinnsias O Fathaigh

Chuireas ceist ar an Aire Rialtais Áitiúla an tseachtmhain seo ghaibh tharainn i dtaoibh rúnaidheachta Fo-Choisde Phinsin na Sean-aoise i Leitir Mór, Conamara, agus is é an freagra a tugadh dom ná gur chuir Mrs. Caitlín Maude in iúl don Aireacht ar an dómhadh lá de Mhí an Mheithimh, 1924, gur ceapadh í mar chléireach don Fho-Choisde sin.

Ba mhaith liom a rádh, ar an gcead dul síos, nach bhfuil aithne agam ar aoinne de na daoine atá i gceist, nach bhfuil fhios agam cé an taobh ar a bhfuil siad i gcúrsaí polaitíochta, agus nach bhfuil aon phaor agam ar aon duine acu. Ní abraim nach rúnaidhe feileamhnach í Mrs. Maude. Deirim, ámhthach, nach bhfuil an ceart chor ar bith sa bhfreagra a fuaireas, agus nach raibh Mrs. Maude ach in a rúnaidhe sealadach ar feadh tamaillín i mbliain a 1928.

Tig liom an méid sin a chruthú ó mhiontuairiscí an Fho-Choisde agus ó leitreacha a scríobhadh ag an rúnaidhe agus ó roinnt chlúdach leitreach a tháinig ó Roinn an Rialtais Aitiúla féin. De réir na fiadhnuise sin, is mar seo atá an sceul. Do toghadh Caitlín Maude, inghcan do Mrs. Caitlín Maude, mar rúnaidhe don Fhó-Choisde, an 20adh lá de Mhí na Samhna, 1923. "Miss Kathleen Maude" seadh atá ar mhiontuairiseí an Fho-Choisde sin, agus sé an t-ainm céanna atá i gclóscríbhinn ar mhiontuairiscí na Comhairle Condae. Chonnacas féin na miontuairiscí sin agus, dar ndóigh, tá cóip díobh ar fágháil i nOifig na Roinne. Ag seo an rún:—

Secretary's Office, Courthouse, Galway.

Copy of resolution passed by the Lettermore Old Age Pensions Sub-Committee at meeting held on the 20th November, 1923:—

"At a meeting of the Lettermore Old Age Pensions Committee held to-day—present, John Walsh, P.D. Conroy and Colman Conroy—it was proposed by Mr. Walsh and seconded by Mr. C. Conroy that Miss Kathleen Maude of Letterbricken, Rosmuck, be elected Clerk instead of her father, the late Mr. Joseph Maude—Signed, P.D. Conroy, Chairman. 20/11/23."

Anois, más cinnte, dearbhtha gur toghadh Miss Maude i Mí na Samhna, 1923, cé'n chaoi a toghfaí a máthair sin i Mí an Mheithimh 1924? Céard ba fáth leis an athrú no an amhlaidh a bhí beirt chléireach ann, an mháthair agus an inghean, san am gcéanna? Nach aisteach an sceul é nár airigh an Fo-Choisde focal fén athrú sin go ceann cheithre blian ina dhiaidh sin? Seo rud níos aistighe: Rinne Miss Maude an rúnaidheacht ó 1923 go dtí 1928 agus sul ar imthigh sí do scríobh sí an leitir seo leanas ag an bhFo-Choisde:—

Rosmuck,

8/11/'28

DEAR MR. HICKEY,

I beg to inform you that the Lettermore Old Age Pension Committee have accepted my resignation as Clerk (as I shall be going to America very soon), and have appointed my mother (Mrs. Maude) as temporary clerk, until such time as they'll appoint a permanent one.

Hoping this will meet with your entire approval,

I remain,

Yours very sincerely,

(signed) Kathleen Maude.

Bheinn buidheach den Aire ach an leitir sin a mhíniú ar ball: Mrs. Maude a bheith in a rúnaidhe ó 1924 agus gan a fhios sin a bheith ag a hinghín féin agus an bheirt acu in a gcomhnuidhe sa tigh céanna; obair na rúnaidheachta dá déanadh ag an geailín, agus an mháthair in a rúnaidhe fá cheilt, i gan fhios don choiste agus i gan fhios don tsaoghal. Is fíor go rinne Mrs. Maude an obair ar feadh roinnt míosa tar éis dul go Meiriocá dá hinghín. Annsin, do toghadh Miss Ellen McDonagh mar rúnaidhe.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Cathain?

Proinnsias O Fathaigh

Léighfead amach an leitir. Níor tugadh fógra ceart le haghaidh an toghtha sin, de réir cosamhlachta, agus b'éigin an scéal a cheartú.

Seosamh O Mongáin

Cé chuir an fógra amach?

Proinnsias O Fathaigh

Tá na leitreacha annso agus fágfaidh mé ós cóir na Dála iad.

Seosamh O Mongáin

Mar tá fios agat ar an méid eile, ba cheart an fios sin a bheith agat.

Proinnsias O Fathaigh

Tháinig an Fó-Choisde le chéile tar éis fógra dleathaigh agus thoghadar Miss Ellen McDonagh go dlisteanach, de réir na riaghlacha, agus do rinne an Chomhairle Chondae an toghadh sin a dhearbhú.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Cathain a toghadh í?

Proinnsias O Fathaigh

Léighfead na leitreacha a ghníonns an scéal sin a dheimhniú.

Lettermore Old Age Pension

Sub-Committee,

28th March, 1930.

Sir,

At this day's meeting we, the undersigned, the following members of Lettermore Old Age Pension Sub-Committee, have appointed Ellen McDonagh, Bealadangan, Clerk for Lettermore Sub-Committee. Proposed by Michael Stanton, seconded by Michael Walshe. Presiding Chairman, Michael J. Stanton. There voted for Ellen McDonagh five, namely—Michael J. Stanton, Michael Walshe, Thomas Naughton, John Flaherty, Redmond McDonagh. Michael F. McDonagh did not vote. Five for and one not voting.

Seo leitir eile:

Secretary's Office,

Courthouse, Galway,

17th April, 1929.

Re Clerk to Lettermore Sub-Committee.

Dear Madam,—Referring to your letter dated the 16th instant, I am to state that after a careful search I have traced my file in the matter, and enclose herewith copy of resolution passed by the Lettermore Sub-Committee at meeting on the 20th November, 1923, appointing Miss Kathleen Maude as Clerk to the Sub-Committee. As Miss Maude has resigned the position, and the Sub-Committee appointed Miss Ellen McDonagh, Bealadangan, I take it that Miss McDonagh is now Clerk to the Sub-Committee. Please bring the matter before the Committee at an early date.

Yours faithfully,

(Signed) Eugene Hickey,

Clerk to Local Committee.

Mrs. K. Maude,

Kilbricken, Rosmuck.

Miss Ellen McDonagh,

Bealadangan.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Cheapas gur toghadh í i Mí na Samhna, 1923.

Proinnsias O Fathaigh

Ní raibh an fógra in ordú an chéad uair agus tháinig an Coisde le cheile arís. Tá leitir cile agam annso:

Secretary's Office,

Courthouse, Galway,

19th July, 1929.

Old Age Pensions.

Madam,—I am directed to state that the Local Committee have approved of your appointment as Clerk to the Lettermore Sub-Committee. Please take over possession of all books, documents, etc., from Mrs. K. Maude.

I am, Madam,

Your obedient servant,

(Signed) Eugene Hickey,

Clerk to Local Committee.

Miss Ellen McDonagh.

Bealadangan.

Copy to Mrs. Maude to hand over all books, etc., to Miss McDonagh.

Anois, tá miontuairiscí agam ó Chomhairle Chondae na Gaillimhe. Tá siad clóbhuailte.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Tá siad fior, mar sin.

Proinnsias O Fathaigh

Is dócha go bhfuil cóip ag an Aire agus is féidir leis iad a cheistniu muna bhfuil siad fíor. Séo iad na miontuairiscí:

Submitted minute of the Lettermore Sub-Committee made at meeting held on the 18th March, 1930, appointing Miss Ellen McDonagh, Bealadangan, as Clerk to the Sub-Committee, Councillor Keane proposed, the Chairman seconded:—"That the appointment of Miss Ellen McDonagh as Clerk to Lettermore Sub-Committee be confirmed— Passed."

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Cad é an dáta atá air sin?

Proinnsias O Fathaigh

Chuir an Rúnaidhe amach é ar an ladh Bealtaine, 1930, agus tionóladh an cruinniú ar an 26adh Aibreán, 1930. Tá trí chlúdach leitreach agam a theasbáineanns go rinne Roinn an Rialtais Aitiúla Miss Ellen McDonagh d'aithint mar rúnaidhe. At an gcéad chóip tá:

Saorstát Eireann—Miss Ellen McDonagh, the Clerk of the Lettermore Pension Sub-Committee, Bealadangan, Co. Galway—Old Age Pensions, Roinn Rialtais Aitiúla agus Sláinte Puiblí

Isé an dáta atá ar an stampa na Lughnasa 23, 1929. Ar an dara clúdach tá an seoladh: "Miss E. McDonagh, the Clerk of the Lettermore Pension Sub-Committee, Bealadangan, Co. Galway." Isé an dáta atá ar an gelúdach san ná 20adh Meadhon Fhoghmhair, 1929. Tá an scoladh céanna ar chlúdach eile ar a bhfuil an dáta 28adh Samhain, 1929.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Cé nár toghadh í go dtí Mí na Márta, 1930.

Proinnsias O Fathaigh

Dubhairt mé go raibh ceist i dtaobh an fhógra agus go raibh an dara cruinniú ann. Uair éicínt i mbliain a 1929, thosaigh argóint idir an Chomhairle Chondae agus Roinn an Rialtais Aitiúla i dtaoibh. Mrs. Maude Tá beart leitreacha agam ina thaoibh sin, acht eamh:

Secretary's Office, Courthouse, Galway.

29th April, 1929.

Lettermore Old Age Pension Sub-Committee. Re Clerkship.

Rev. Dear Sir,—Referring to previous correspondence with regard to above, I enclose, for your information, copy of letter received from the Ministry of Local Government on the matter. I have no record at this office of the appointment of Mrs. Maude as Clerk in June, 1924. As stated by the Ministry, the appointment rests with the Sub-Committee in respect of which notice of motion should be given by a member of the Sub-Committee.

Yours faithfully,

(Signed) Eugene Hickey,

Clerk to Local Committee.

Very Rev. P.J. McHugh, P.P., Carraroe, Co. Galway.

Cruthuigheann an leitir seo nach bhfuair an Chomhairle Chondae aon fhógra ná foráileamh ó Fho-Choisde na bPinsean i Leitir Mhór fá Mrs. Maude bheith toghtha mar Rúnaidhe, Ní raibh aon fhocal faoi sin ar na leitreacha a cuireadh isteach chúcha.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

An raibh aon bhaint acu leis?

Proinnsias O Fathaigh

Bhí. Má tá an scéal mar adeirim cé an bunadhas a bhí leis an bhfreagra a tugadh dom ag an Aire? An bhfuil an leitir no an foráileamh ó Mrs. Maude go rinne sé tagairt do ar fagháil in Oifig na Roinne no an mbeadh cead agamsa no ag aon Teachta Dála eile an leitir sin a bhreithniú? Agus má tá a leithéid sin de leitir aca cé an t-ughdarás a bhí léithe? Ní hamhlaidh ba mhian leis an Aire a rádh go bhfuiltear chomh simplidhe sin, chomh amaideach sin, go dtig le duine scríobhadh chucha, agus gan aon tacaidheacht leis an scéal, á rádh go bfuil post fachta aige ag Bord Puiblidhe agus go nglactar leis an leitir sin gan an scéal do dheimhniú? Nach leanbhaidhe atáthar sa Roinn sin! Ba mhaith liom míniú d'fháil ón Aire mar gheall ar leitir a scríobh Miss Maude ag rá go raibh sí ag eirighe as an bpost—

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

An mbeidh aon tseans agam freagra do thabhairt?

Proinnsias O Fathaigh

Ba mhaith liom fosta dá n-abrochadh an tAire cé'n fáth do scríobh a Roinn chuig Miss McDonagh mar rúnaidhe an Choisde.

Seosamh O Mongáin

Dubhairt an Teachta O Fathaigh gur cuireadh fógra amach an cruinniú seo a thabhairt i dteannta a chéile le Cléireach a thogha. 'Bhfuil cóip den fhógra sin ag an Teachta? Má tá, ba cheart do é do theasbáint mar breathnuíonn sé go bhfuil cóip de gach uile rud eile aige ach an rud a theastuíos uainn a bheadh aige. Deirim-se nár cuireadh a leithéide amach. Bhí cruinniú ann agus bhí beirt shagart ag an gcruinniú sin—an tAthair Mac Aodha, Sagart Pobal Cheathrú Rua, agus an tAthair O Deaghaidh, Sagart Pobal Ros Mhuic. Nuair a bhí obair an chruinnithe thart d'fhág an dhá shagart seo, agus an cléireach, an cruinniú. Annsin tháinig a ceathrar no a cúigear eile i dteannta a chéile gan fógra agus chuir siad isteach inghean de dhuine aca— inghean Réamoin Mhic Dhonnchadha— mar chléireach. Im' bharúil-se níor ceart é seo do dhéanamh. Tá an bhean seo ag déanamh an obair le ceathar no cúig de bhlianta agus á dhéanamh go maith. Annsin, 'tuige go mbainfi dhí í le haghaidh áit do dhéanamh d'inghin Réamoin Mhic Dhonnchadha? Baintreabhach bhocht a bhí i Mrs. Maude fáth gur fágadh go haonráchanach í nuair a cailleadh a fear a bhí ina chléireach ar an gCoiste seo ó cuireadh ar bun é. Seo é an méid a d'fhág sé aici. Anois, tá dream Fianna Fáil ag iarraidh é a bhaint dhí. Seo é an dream atá ag leigint ortha féin go bhfuil siad i bhfábhar na bochtanachta. Go bhfóiridh Dia ar an mbochtannacht nuair a thagann siad seo i réim, má thagann. Seo cás den bhochtanacht is measa atá in Eirinn agus siadsan ag iarraidh í a dhéanamh níos measa. O go bhfóiridh Dia orainn. Deirim-se duine ar bith a d'iarfadh é a bhaint di go mbainfeadh sé an bráithlín den chorp.

General Mulcahy

There is a saying in Irish: "D'fhuiliceoch fuil fuil i ngorta ach ní fhuiliceoch fuil fuil dá dhortadh." I suppose that even in the human nature of the Gael, as in general human nature, there was something that brought that expression to mind and tongue. But it is because in the first place there is something in this case that I do not associate with the Gael, and, in the second place, to ensure that a veil of secrecy will not not be drawn over what is attempted here, that I want to talk in plain, blunt English.

Mr. Fahy

I know nothing of the matter beyond what is disclosed by these letters.

General Mulcahy

Of course, and nothing of my function in the matter. Of course, the Deputy did not go into the matter. If he did, he would not bring it up here.

Mr. Mongan

That is so.

General Mulcahy

The Deputy would have thrown out the Government some time ago if, as he said, in the interests of humanity and of animals the humane-killer had not been introduced. The Deputy will put on the banner of his Party a demand for pensions for widows. Yet he will come along and ask me to justify my attitude in a case like this. He takes care to excuse himself, in the case of eventualities, by a declaration that he has not gone into the merits of it. So small is my function in this particular matter that the case ought really not to arise here at all. I think that it is only Providence that watches over widows and those who are dependent on widows that has induced Deputy Fahy to bring this matter into the open here. The position of a sub-committee of a pension committee is governed by certain rules and regulations. If the Deputy will look over the Old Age Pensions Consolidated Regulations, 1922, he will see in Section 3 something about subcommittees which he might have read before. He will see on page 29 that when the clerk is appointed to a sub-committee the person appointed is supposed to write to the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, on the one hand, and to the Commissioners of Customs and Excise on the other, and say, as he would say in this case, "The Lettermore Sub-Committee of the Pensions Committee of the above named county have appointed me the undersigned to be Clerk to the Committee.—Signed ——, Clerk to the Sub-Committee." That communication warrants my dealing with the writer as clerk to the sub-committee within the limits of my functions with it. The Trans-Corrib version of that was "A Chara, Kindly address letters Mrs. Maude, as I am clerk in the place of my late husband, Joseph Maude.— Mise le meas, Mrs. Maude."

Mr. Fahy

Why did her daughter say she was resigning? I have the letter here.

General Mulcahy

It is a long story.

Mr. Mongan

And a dirty story.

General Mulcahy

And within the limits of time, I will give it. Mr. Joseph Maude was appointed, in 1908, Secretary to the Lettermore Sub-Committee of the County Galway Pension Committee. He died about September, 1923. Things move slowly sometimes in the West of Ireland. They moved particularly slowly in years like 1923 and 1924. As far as the Department were concerned, until June, 1924, letters to the Secretary of the Lettermore Sub-Committee were apparently addressed to Mr. Maude. Then we got Mrs. Maude's letter just quoted. From that day until January, 1929—all through 1924, 1925, 1926, 1927, 1928— the Department of Local Government dealt with Mrs. Kate Maude as secretary to the sub-committee in all matters pertaining to old age pensions in that area. We got this letter from Mrs. Maude on the 14th January, 1929:—

Kilbrickane, Rosmuck,

14th January, 1929.

Dear Sir (or Sirs),

Will ye kindly enlighten me on the subject I am going to ask ye. It's as good to explain the whole of it to ye. First of all, my late husband, Joseph Maude, was appointed Clerk of the O.A.P. Lettermore Sub-Committee, County Galway, in 1908, and continued as Clerk until the time of his death, September, 1923. After his death I went for the clerkship, and the day of the appointment I was sick in bed, so I sent my daughter, Kate, to the meeting. I was appointed Clerk, as there was no other one going for it at the time. My daughter was doing the work for me and going to the meetings. As I did not feel strong after my husband's death, so after I getting better she continued doing the work as she was younger, until the 5th November, 1928. She had the last meeting and on November 11th she left for America. There are none of the Committee on now that appointed me, as the County Council formed a new Committee about June or July and that Committee wanted to make out that it was my daughter that was appointed Clerk five years ago. There was a mistake in the County Council as it was Miss K. Maude that used to be on the cheques, and Mrs. K. Maude on any communication coming from Dublin. I knew of the mistake all along and did not think worth while to bother about it as my daughter used to hand me every cheque to be cashed.

I think there would be nothing about it now, but one of the members wants to get his daughter Clerk instead of me. I think there are a few more going for it, so between the whole of them I stand no chance if it goes to the vote as they are all the one side except two, and there are nine members in the Committee. There are two of the old members that appointed me can prove that it was I was appointed. The other member died about 18 months ago. At the last meeting 4th January, 1929, the members were to appoint a new Clerk so I told them that I would stick to the old appointment and if they had nothing better to get after their big work but watching to take that little job of a poor widow and her orphans they could not boast of much. Those are the men that is going to stand right for the poor of Connemara. I am 57 years, and if I had anything to fall back on I would never say a word about it after my daughter leaving me, but as God is my judge there is not a shilling in the world coming in to me but what I am getting out of the O.A.P. and my parish priest can certify that I have some land, but what can I do on it when I have no help or money. The next meeting will be some time in February for the appointment and now I am asking ye to let me know what I am to do, or have I any right to stick to the old appointment. The answer ye will send me I will bring to the meeting, D.V., whether it is in my favour or not; I hope ye will consider it, and let me know if I am entitled to it or not. Ye must excuse the poor way I am trying to explain it to ye, but it is my first time of trying to write anything like it. Hoping I am not causing ye any trouble.

Your obedient servant,

Mrs. Kate Maude.

There was never any fault found with the work done by me by Pension Officer Committee or L.G.B. The only mistake that was in the County Council was between Mrs. and Miss and I think that was not much between mother and daughter as all notifications were signed K. Maude.

Mrs. K. Maude.

Kindly send me answer as soon as ye can.

We have a statement signed by the only two living members of the Committee that it was Mrs. K. Maude that was appointed.

Mr. Mongan

That is the truth.

General Mulcahy

That letter arose out of the circumstance that the daughter in going to America wrote the letter that the Deputy speaks about. From our point of view, it was utterly irrelevant to our position. At a meeting of the Sub-Committee on the 4th January, it was proposed that a Clerk be appointed to replace her daughter, but Mrs. Maude pointed out that she was the Clerk. At the next meeting, on the 23rd March, 1929, after the business had been completed, someone proposed that a permanent Clerk be appointed. The reverend chairman. Father McHugh, refused to deal with the motion, on the ground that the Department of Local Government had stated that they relied on this communication I have mentioned, and that Mrs. Maude was their Clerk. He left the chair, and the Clerk also left the meeting. After their leaving, one of the remaining members was moved to the chair, and they purported to appoint Miss Ellen McDonagh.

Mr. Mongan

God help the people who bring this matter on.

General Mulcahy

That was in 1929. When the matter came before us, in a letter from the Secretary of the County Galway Pension Committee, he was written to to the effect that Mrs. Maude was the Clerk to the Sub-Committee, and that if it should at any time be desired to reconsider the question of the clerkship this should only be done by the Pension Sub-Committee after due notice of motion, and no fresh appointment should be made without a prior declaration that the office is vacant and an intimation to that effect to the existing Clerk. In such event, moreover, full opportunity should be afforded to suitable candidates to apply for the position.

That communication is dated 29th November, 1929. It is now March, 1931. The eager but palsied hand of a certain section of the Sub-Committee is ever since hanging over that widow. They had not the conscience——

Mr. Mongan

Or the courage.

General Mulcahy

They have not the conscience to say: "We are removing the present Clerk, and we are going to appoint somebody else." It is really a shameful business.

Mr. Mongan

And nothing else.

The Dáil adjourned at 2.30 p.m., until Wednesday, 11th March.