Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 23 Apr 1931

Vol. 38 No. 2

In Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 63—Wireless Broadcasting.

Minister for Defence (Mr. Fitzgerald)

I move:

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £63,784 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1932, chun na dTuarastal agus na gCostaisí eile a bhaineann le Fóirleatha Neashrangach.

That a sum not exceeding £63,784 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932, for the salaries and other expenses in connection with Wireless Broadcasting.

Mr. Heffernan

The full amount of the Estimate for the Broadcasting Service for the financial year 1931-32 is £78,784, which shows an increase of £3,398 over the Estimate for 1930-31. Last year's Estimate of £75,386 included £48,000 for the high-power station, none of which has been expended, so that the effective Estimate for the Dublin and Cork Stations last year may be taken as £27,381. Expenditure for the past year is estimated at £23,700, showing a saving on the Vote of £51,686, of which £48,000 is due to the provision for the high-power station not being expended, and £3,686 to savings in expenditure on the Dublin and Cork Stations. Taking into account expenditure on the Broadcasting Service borne on the Votes for the Post Office, Public Works and Buildings, and the Stationery Office, also provision for depreciation and interest on a commercial account basis, the total expenditure on the Broadcasting Service during the past year is estimated at about £33,000.

The receipts from wireless licence fees during the year are estimated at £13,500, from Customs tax £34,000, and from advertisement revenue £500, making gross estimated revenue of £48,000, or taking the cost of collection at 10 per cent., net revenue of £43,000, showing a surplus of about £10,000. Against this, however, it must be remembered that the general taxpayer is being asked to provide for a high-power station a large sum of money which is not likely to be recovered from broadcasting revenue for several years.

The estimated total expenditure on the broadcasting service during the next financial year is £98,561, made up of £78,784 in the Broadcasting Vote and £19,777 in other Votes. Of this sum of £98,561, the amount provided in all Votes for the erection of the high power station is £65,000 out of a total estimated cost of £175,000, so that an additional sum of £10,000 will be required for the high power station in the following year. Apart from the provision for the high-power station, the estimated expenditure on the Dublin and Cork stations for next year shows a reduction of about £1,200 as compared with last year. Revenue for the year 1931-32 is estimated at £14,000 from licence fees, £1,000 from advertisements, and probably about £30,000 from customs duties, making a total gross revenue of £45,000, or net revenue of £40,000. This revenue, as compared with the total estimated expenditure of £98,561, will leave an estimated deficit of over £58,000, which will be due entirely to the capital cost of erection of the high power station. Surplus revenue over current expenditure during the past few years and in the future will, however, it is anticipated, be quite sufficient on a commercial account basis to provide for depreciation fund and interest on capital expenditure. It is, of course, necessary that the broadcasting service should be considered as a business undertaking and should pay its way without assistance from general taxation.

Last year I dealt fully with the finances of the high power station. Our policy in regard to the necessity for a high power station has been confirmed by the trend of development of broadcasting in Europe, which is definitely towards large increases of the power stations. The Dublin and Cork stations do not give a service throughout the Saorstát, and the only means of effecting the best possible service, having regard to technical and international conditions, is by the erection of a high power station. The Dáil, last year, approved our proposals in this respect, and the large provision for the high power station in this year's Estimate is due to the delay in the selection of the site. Unforeseen difficulties arose in connection with the acquisition of the site originally chosen near Athlone, but steps are now being taken with a view to acquiring an alternative site in the same neighbourhood.

The number of current licences at the end of February was 26,000, as compared with 25,269 a year ago, which shows an increase of 731, and it is believed that a steady increase may be expected during the coming year. The only important staffing change during the past year was the discontinuance of the programme staff at the Cork station. This has resulted in a saving of nearly £1,000 a year. Only one weekly programme was given from the Cork station, and the cost of producing this was too heavy, as it was found that the work could be undertaken by the Dublin programme staff without appreciable extra cost. The studio at Cork has, however, been maintained, and programmes are frequently given there by local artistes. Programmes during the past year have, it is thought, shown a distinct improvement all round, having regard to the money and material available. The musical programmes have now reached a high standard, particularly the opera performances and the symphony concerts. The scope of the talks programme has been widened and efforts are being made towards a further improvement in this respect. Special attention is being paid to extending the use of Irish throughout the general programmes as far as possible, in addition to the special Irish musical programmes, talks and lessons.

An innovation in programmes has been the recent introduction of sponsored programmes. It was considered that the possible revenue derivable from broadcasting advertising should not be entirely disregarded, but, at the same time, it was realised that undiluted advertising talks such as had previously been allowed were not a desirable form of broadcasting advertising. Advertising by means of programmes in which the direct advertising is confined to brief introductory and closing announcements does not, however, appear to be open to objection, and a trial series of sponsored programmes is, therefore, at present being given. The arrangement is that sponsors pay a booking fee per hour and also provide the programme at their own expense. The gain to the broadcasting service is, therefore, the amount of the booking fee, plus the value of the programme. Preference is given to Irish advertisers, and advertisements of articles in competition with Irish manufacture are not accepted. Also, both the programme and the advertising matter must be approved by the Department. As only a comparatively small part of the total broadcasting time is allotted to sponsored programmes there is no appreciable encroachment upon the ordinary time of the Station.

There has been a very considerable improvement in the news during the past 12 months, and the weekly market news includes reports from the Stock Exchange, the Trade Commission in Great Britain, weekly bulletin of the Department of Agriculture, reports of the London Provision Market, Salford Cattle Market, etc.

Mr. Lemass

There are one or two points concerning this Estimate upon which I would like further information. As one not familiar with the working of the Dublin Station it seems to me that the staff required to conduct it is very large. I do not know what work there possibly could be in connection with that Station which would require the whole-time services of some 20 officials, not counting the members of the Orchestra. It may be that there is work for each of the officials, but I would like to be convinced of that. I feel fairly satisfied that if the situation in the Station were overhauled, a considerable reduction in the staff would be found to be possible. We have a Station Director, an Assistant Director, a Musical Director, an Announcer, a Woman Organiser, a News Correspondent and quite a large number of subordinate officials. The result of the work of all these people is indicated by the programme, and it does not seem that there could be enough work to require the whole time services of all these Directors, sub-Directors and officials.

I would like also, to have some explanation of the personal allowance which is paid in the case of the Station Director, the Assistant Station Director, and the Announcer, of £50 in each case which is described in the footnote as being personal to the present holders of the office. How did that personal allowance arise? Is it that the head of the Department was not satisfied that these officials were being paid sufficiently and that this personal allowance is given as a sort of bonus? Were these individuals in receipt of that allowance from some other Government source before they were appointed to that Department?

I would like some information as to how that allowance is distinct altogether from the salary fixed originally. The Parliamentary Secretary has informed us that the provision made in the Estimate for last year to provide a high power station has not been utilised. The only explanation he gave us for the delay was similar to the explanation he gave us some time ago with reference to Rathmines telephone exchange. Apparently there is some difficulty about the site. It is over two years since the decision of the Executive Council to establish a high power station was announced and the length of time which has elapsed since then would seem to indicate that the work has not been pushed ahead with any energy. We know the proposal to establish a station at Athlone was utilised by the spokesmen of Cumann na nGaedheal during the by-election in Longford and Westmeath. Is it the hope of the Parliamentary Secretary that they can keep that bribe hanging up before the constituency of Longford-Westmeath and Leix-Offaly until the general election is concluded, so that we can take it the station will be located in Athlone?

Mr. Heffernan

Kildare.

Mr. Lemass

Has the Parliamentary Secretary decided to leave Tipperary? I would like also to have some information concerning those sponsored programmes. I understood the Parliamentary Secretary to state that there is a certain revenue which accrues to the service from these programmes. He told us, however, that the estimated revenue from advertisements last year was £500, and on the face of the estimate it is stated that the estimated revenue from advertisements this year is only £100. I would like to know how the discrepancy arises. Is it anticipated that there is going to be a considerable falling off in the use of the station for advertising purposes through sponsored programmes? I was glad to hear the Parliamentary Secretary state that it was definitely not their policy to allow the station to be used to advertise foreign goods which are in competition with goods produced in the country. He then went on to say that it was their intention to give a preference to Irish advertisers. What is the exact significance of that term "preference." Is it the policy of the Department to allow foreign advertisers to avail of the services in any circumstances, or are they merely prohibitive when the goods that they are pushing are goods which can be said to be in competition with goods produced at home? These are the main points that have occurred to me arising out of this Estimate.

I do not wish to say anything concerning the programme. I am not very familiar with it. I do not have many opportunities of listening to it, but I must say I have received the impression that there has been a considerable lessening of criticism concerning it. I understood the Parliamentary Secretary to state that it was their intention to extend the Irish portion of the programme. That is something for which there has been a very considerable demand, and it would be welcomed in certain quarters. Again, however, I would like to express the opinion that the policy of the Department in respect to programmes is too timorous. They avoid very carefully anything which might be considered controversial in any way. I think that is a mistake. I realise that if controversial subjects are included in the programme the Parliamentary Secretary is liable to incur criticism in the House, when the Estimate is before it, from one side or the other alleging that undue preference was given to one point of view. It seems to me, however, that the danger of that criticism arising could be obviated by having the Advisory Committee selected in such a manner as to ensure that all possible shades of opinion would be represented, and by having the question of such discussions or lectures or the like submitted to that Committee.

Mr. Cassidy

While I do not claim to be an expert in regard to the technicalities or intricacies of wireless broadcasting, I know for a fact that if the members of the Dublin Chamber of Commerce or people in Deputy Heffernan's constituency were asked to pay something for nothing there would be a big outcry. That is the position as far as wireless broadcasting is concerned in Donegal. Although the people in the major portion of that county who have valve or crystal sets are called upon to pay duty, I understand they are not able to get Dublin. Whether it is the hills of Donegal in this particular case that create the ills of Donegal, I am not in a position to say. I know there has been a great number of complaints. These people, while they are able to get the B.B.C. Station on the valve sets, are not able to get the Dublin Broadcasting Station. I notice that the Parliamentary Secretary, in the course of his remarks, did not indicate whether he thought that the high-power station which is to be erected in Athlone, and for which the taxpayers in Donegal are asked to subscribe, will be powerful enough to supply everyone in the Twenty-Six Counties.

In a statement on the 26th May, 1927, he stated in connection with this high power station: "I am not sure about the technicalities of the matter, but my information is that a high power station will not be able to serve all the rural districts, that even when this station in Athlone is established its radius will not exceed something like 60 miles." In reply to that allegation by Deputy Heffernan the then Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, Mr. J.J. Walsh, stated: "In the absence of a high power station the poorer people who are outside the limited circle covered by the Dublin and Cork Stations would be entirely ostracised. This high power station is their only hope. They cannot afford valve sets, and a high power station is indispensable to them." Then take the owners of four-valve sets. To them he said: "But the valve user is the exception, and we must necessarily cater for the majority. In providing a high power station we are catering for the overwhelming majority. We are doing a real service to the poor man, and in the absence of it wireless would remain something foreign and unknown to him." Again, on the 8th July, Mr. Walsh, Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, stated: "When the high power station is functioning it is anticipated that all citizens of the Saorstát, with the possible exceptions of those resident in Northern Tirconaill and South-West Kerry, will be able to hear and enjoy our programmes on inexpensive crystal sets."

At a later period he stated that the people in North Tirconaill would get a good deal of benefit by this station. The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs at that time gave an assurance that one relay station would be established in Bundoran, in Donegal, and that another relay station would be established some place in Kerry. That was in addition to the high power station, because it was admitted that even if this high power station were erected in Athlone or Birr it would not be powerful enough to cater for North Tirconaill and parts of Kerry. While I understand they are going ahead with the high power station they seem to have dropped the project for a relay station for Tirconaill and Kerry.

I suggest if the Minister is not prepared to go ahead with the relay station at Bundoran so as to cater for the people in North Tirconaill, who may not be able to take advantage of the high power station at Athlone, although they pay licence duty and get the B.B.C. programmes that he should allow them to have the wireless sets without having licences. In other words, that he should not ask the people of Donegal to pay licence fees when they are not able to get reception from the Dublin, the Cork or the proposed Athlone stations. I hope the Minister will let us know if he has quite dropped the project advocated by a previous Minister for Posts and Telegraphs of building relay stations which would cater for people in Tirconaill and in West Kerry.

Mr. P. Hogan (Clare):

Representations have been made to me, and the matter has been discussed by one organisation, that some of these sponsored programmes are not exactly what they might be. I understand the Parliamentary Secretary to state that he was not prepared to allow foreign goods to be advertised. I am told the sponsored programmes do a good deal of advertising of foreign culture, and matters of that kind, and that these programmes are not at all desirable for broadcasting from an Irish station. I must say I do not know anything about them. I never heard them. I am taking the word of a responsible organisation where the matter was discussed, and which made representations to me, that if foreign goods were cut out there was also a very good reason for cutting out foreign culture. I will let Deputies put whatever mark they like around the word "culture."

I would also like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary if he has considered the anomalous position of a person who wishes to discard wireless altogether, or to discard it, perhaps, for one or two years. Take the position of a man who was honest enough in 1929, in 1928 and in 1927, to say that he had a wireless set but who in 1930 decided to dismantle it. As his name is on the register the postal officials call and ask him to pay his licence on a set that he is not using and that he is not going to use. According to the present legislation he is told that he must either dispose of the set for whatever trifle he can get for it, or take out a licence. If he has the set locked up in a box he has to pay a licence or else to dispose of it. That is an anomalous position. There are people, of course, who might not indicate that they had a wireless set. Because a man is honest enough to indicate that he possesses a wireless set, that it is dismantled, and the aerial earthed, he must either dispose of it or pay the licence. It is not the first time that this matter has been brought to the notice of the Parliamentary Secretary, and I would like to know now if he has given it any consideration with a view to having the anomaly removed.

Mr. H. Broderick

I would like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary if he has selected the site for the high power station in Athlone, and if so, will he arrange to have the work started as soon as possible. A certain sum was set aside in last year's Estimates for the work. It appears again in this year's Estimates. People in Athlone have been looking forward to having the work started, and I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will see that it is started at an early date.

Mr. Flinn

Can the Parliamentary Secretary tell the House what is the proportion of crystal sets to valve sets?

Mr. Heffernan

Thirty per cent. crystal sets, and seventy per cent. valve sets.

Mr. Flinn

How does that vary? Are the crystal sets going up or down?

Mr. Heffernan

Going down.

Mr. J.X. Murphy

Are any steps taken to find out who has wireless sets? I am under the impression that a great many people who have wireless sets do not pay licence fees, while, as Deputy Hogan stated, the people who are honest enough to indicate that they have sets have to pay.

Mr. Flinn

Would the Parliamentary Secretary tell the House whether in such a case as Deputy Hogan mentioned, or where the owner pawns a set, will the pawnbroker have to take out a licence? The wireless set is in the possession of the pawnbroker, and it is the pawnbroker who should pay the licence.

Mr. Heffernan

I cannot answer that question.

Mr. Flinn

The Parliamentary Secretary ought to know.

Mr. Heffernan

Unlike Deputy Flinn, I do not know everything. As to the inquiry made by Deputy Lemass regarding the staffing of the Department, I think it is pretty evident, as the Deputy indicated, that he has not a deep personal knowledge of the duties involved in attending to the programmes and to the engineering side of the Department. If there is any complaint with regard to the staffing of the Department, it is that the staff is not sufficient. Everyone on the staff is fully occupied, and could do more work if there was time to do it. To anyone acquainted with the requirements of a broadcasting station, that is quite evident. If the Deputy makes any attempt to compare the staff in our broadcasting establishment with, say, one of the provincial establishments of the B.B.C., he will find that our staff is very much smaller. I believe that if we could afford to increase the staff we could increase the quality of the programmes. One of the claims made by persons outside who are interested in wireless programmes is that our staff is not adequate to prepare or examine programmes which are to be put before the public. I am not quite in agreement with the statement, but I think that if we could increase our staff we could improve our programmes. It will be obvious to Deputies that, in addition to those who are actually dealing with the programmes, such as the director, the assistant director, the announcer, and the musical director, that the other officials are necessary for the clerical duties which pertains to that section of the Department, and which involves considerable work. The same applies to the engineering staff, which is fully occupied in the work in which it is engaged. The Deputy inquired about the allowance made to the station director, and to the assistant director. He will find, on examination of previous Estimates, that the salaries of the station director and the assistant station director are not increasing, that they are fixed salaries, but that a permanent status has not yet been decided upon.

Their permanent status has not yet been decided upon. It was considered in view of the conditions appertaining to a new undertaking of this kind that we should wait some time before we decide upon a permanent scale of salaries for these officers. Consequently it was thought desirable to give them a personal allowance of £50 a year, which is not in my opinion at all excessive. Deputy Lemass is incorrect in his memory as to the time when the decision was arrived at to establish a high power station. The decision was arrived at about a year ago, not two years ago. There had been certain delays as to the site and as to the location. As soon as we had decided on a location unforeseen difficulties arose as to an ideal site. An ideal site, which we understood we could get, turned out not to be available. The person to whom it belonged was unwilling to sell for sentimental reasons. We have no compulsory powers regarding the acquisition of the site for a high power station. We cannot acquire land by compulsion. We are negotiating at the present time for a site, and I can assure the Deputy that we expect to have a site available within the next few weeks. I am not sure whether the negotiations are quite complete, but I do know that they have been going on for some time.

Mr. Lemass

In the Estimates last year a sum of £48,300 was passed for the high power station. It was not built, but in the meantime the figure for the cost has increased by £4,250. Why?

Mr. Heffernan

That was an estimated cost for the work expected to be done within the year. The amount included in this year's Estimate is the estimated expenditure to be made on this work within this year. It is probable that there will be more work done this year than was estimated for in the last financial year. That is the explanation. The total cost of the high power station is larger than the figure set out here.

Mr. Lemass

We may take it, therefore, that the £52,550 is not the total cost of this station?

Mr. Heffernan

No, the total cost of this station is about £70,000. We cannot give the exact figure, but we estimate it at £70,000 to £75,000. The figure on the Estimate is the amount proposed to be expended this year. Concerning the revenue in connection with this service from the daily programme under the head of advertisements we put down an item of only £100. That amount was arrived at when we had not settled any definite policy as to the type of the programme to be carried out. At a later stage it was decided that we are to continue the sponsored programme. That is experimental. It is estimated that the revenue will be £1,000. The Estimate last year was only £50, and the revenue about £500.

As to the type of programme coming under the head of advertisements, the policy is, as stated in my speech, not to allow advertisements in the case of goods manufactured competitively with Saorstát manufacturers. We do not allow advertising by outside firms in regard to goods manufactured in the Saorstát. In the case of goods not manufactured in the Saorstát we allow advertisements from outside firms, subject to the suitability of the matter in the programme. That is our policy, and I think it is a policy to which there cannot be any exception taken. Deputy Lemass raised a matter as to the broadcasting of controversial matters. That is a question that has received a great deal of consideration. I have given a great deal of consideration to it but I cannot say that we have any definite policy on the matter at the moment. I do think that such debates would be, perhaps, of more interest than some of the matters at present on the programme, but it would be very difficult to arrange debates and to arrange them in the manner that would give satisfaction to all sections of the community. But we are open to consider the matter further. Possibly the Deputy may be able to give us some advice in that connection. Looking at it from the political point of view, it is difficult to get controversial matter in this country which is not political, and there would have to be general agreement among all parties before debates could be satisfactorily arranged.

Regarding the inquiries made by Deputy Cassidy as to the broadcasting service in Donegal and the remark about a high-power station that he read from the Official Report, I want to say that that is very much out of date. Since that statement was made in the Dáil considerable technical developments have been made, and it is now anticipated that the high-power station will give a crystal set radius of at least 80 miles from the centre. It may be greater. It may be 90 miles or more. The crystal range is not an even distance from the station, but I would say it would be round about 80 miles. I do not know how that will affect Donegal, but I should think that a very large portion of Donegal will be covered and within the ambit of the crystal set. If the radius extends beyond 80 miles it will take in most of Donegal. In any case that is the best we can do. It is clear that some people in Donegal will only be able to get a reception from the high-power station with valve sets.

Mr. Cassidy

In view of the fact that the range of the station at Athlone would be 80 to 100 miles, it was recognised by a previous Minister as that would not reach a certain part of Donegal, a relay station would be established at Bundoran. Is that to be done? Donegal seems to be unfortunate. Even the Shannon scheme does not reach it.

Mr. Heffernan

Yes, that is so. Donegal is unfortunate in its geographical situation, but I cannot help that. There have been technical advances since the statement was made. It is not the policy of the Department to establish relay stations in any part of Donegal.

Mr. Cassidy

Then give a remission of the licence fees.

Mr. Heffernan

I am sure that Donegal will be willing to buy valve sets. They can be got cheaper now.

Mr. Hogan

Where are the cheap valve sets to be got?

Mr. Flinn

Deputy Good sells them.

Mr. Heffernan

I have been asked a question as to discarded sets. The question is, when is a set discarded? It is not because a man takes down his aerial that it is discarded. It is not because there are a few valves missing that it is discarded. It is a difficult question to decide; while the set remains in the possession of the owner he is liable for fees. I think the suggestion is to bury the set or give it away.

Mr. Anthony

Dump them.

Mr. Heffernan

I would suggest, rather than destroy the set, that it would be a charitable act to give it to a blind person, who has to pay no licence.

Mr. Hogan

Or a deaf person for preference.

Mr. Flinn

If a man buries his set is he not still, in fact, liable for his licence?

Mr. Hogan

I am not going to raise any technical points as to whether I should bury my hypothetical set or not. The Parliamentary Secretary did not refer to the matter I raised as to whether any representations have been made to him from any Irish organisation as to the type of programme to be broadcast in his sponsored programmes, and whether a particular foreign culture was being advertised through these sponsored programmes. There have been public statements made that representations have been made to him from certain quarters He ought to let us know whether these have received consideration from him or from some responsible official of his Department.

Mr. Heffernan

I think certain representations have been made to me. I have a hazy memory of seeing some such. I did not accept such representations as being solidly founded. As I explained to the Deputy in my opening statement, the sponsored programme arrangements are experimental and on a temporary basis. It is possible that we may not finally agree that the matter broadcast is altogether desirable. We have not come to a decision on it. In a general way the matter broadcast so far could not be considered undesirable. I understand that representations of the kind the Deputy refers to were made by people who were interested in a certain type of Gaelic culture. I have indicated that we are looking into that side of the programme. Perhaps it will be developed to a greater extent in the coming year. That will not necessarily interfere with the matter in the sponsored programmes. I do not want to say definitely at this stage whether we regard the sponsored programme as quite satisfactory or not. It is being weighed at the moment.

Mr. Hogan

Am I to understand from the Parliamentary Secretary's statement that he has nobody in his Department who is capable of saying whether the programme is Irish or not or whether it is in line with Irish culture or not? Do I understand that that is the position: that he does not know whether a programme is in line with Irish ideas? Do I understand that while they are experimenting all sorts of foreign culture are to be broadcast throughout the country? Is that the position? What does he mean when he tells us of people interested in a certain type of Gaelic culture? I would like him to develop that point and to let us know how many kinds of Gaelic culture there are and what type he stands for, because I only know of one type.

Mr. Heffernan

I do not think that this is the place or time for a debate on Gaelic culture. There is no use pursuing a point of that nature here. The Deputy knows very well that we can come to no conclusion on a matter of that kind. He knows that on questions of programme there will be thousands of different opinions. On the question of the quality of any particular programme you will get dozens of different opinions in this country or in any other country, and people who are responsible for the broadcasting undertaking have to take a decision, not necessarily in accordance with majority opinion, but taking into account the general policy of the undertaking and of the Government which is controlling the undertaking. That is all I have to say. I am not going to argue with the Deputy on the question of Gaelic culture or Irish culture.

Mr. Hogan

There is no need to argue what is Gaelic culture. I think there is a very positive idea as to what Gaelic culture is. I am not prepared to accept the Parliamentary Secretary's statement as to where I should raise this matter, or that I should not raise this matter here. This is the place where the thing is being controlled, and the Deputy who is responsible for the control says it is not the place to answer. Where, then, is it to be raised? This station is being paid for and used by the Irish people. If the Parliamentary Secretary is not prepared to answer where the question of Gaelic culture is going to be raised, what am I to do? What can I do?

Mr. Heffernan

The question of the evasion of payment of licences was mentioned. Possibly there has been a certain amount of evasion. Some people do not pay their licence fees. We have taken steps to catch people who do not pay their licences. We may have to introduce legislation or take more drastic steps, but there is no considerable evasion.

Mr. Flinn

It is a job for the C.I.D.

Question put and agreed to.