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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 1 May 1931

Vol. 38 No. 6

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 56—Industry and Commerce.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £70,590 chun slánuithe na suime is ga chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1932, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Tionnscail agus Tráchtála, maraon le Coiste Comhairlitheach na Rátaí.

That a sum not exceeding £70,590 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, including the Rates Advisory Committee.

On previous occasions I have gone into this Vote in great detail. I do not intend to repeat that this year. I have not had any information up to the present as to any special point on which Deputies desire detailed information. Presumably, these points will be raised as we go along. I will take the Vote under the two or three main headings, under which it is divided. As far as the statistics branch is concerned, there are at the moment being published the results of the 1929 census of production, according as the results of each industry are compiled. We have issued some fifteen of these, and the remaining eighteen will be brought out as we have them to hand. They are mostly in an advanced state, and they ought to be issued before the end of the year. We are making preparations to take a complete census in 1932, relating to production in the year 1931. We are also preparing a printed report covering the census for the years 1926 to 1929. As far as the census of population is concerned, considerable delay has been caused, and is still being caused, owing to the volume of industrial status, generally spoken of as the unemployment volume, about which I have spoken here on many occasions. Other volumes are proceeding, while a certain amount of delay has been caused in the compilation of other statistical matters. I tried to get an advance as far as possible in Gaeltacht and Irish language volume, the industries volume, and the fertility and dependency volume. They are held up by reason of the delay in the industrial status volume. With regard to that I have to come to a decision almost immediately as to whether or not I should separately publish that volume in what I consider to be an unsuitable form, that would not make such a useful public document, or else to see if I cannot speed up the written matter which is to be attached to it in order to get something which would be of use to the public. That decision must be taken in the next four weeks. That volume being got out of the way, it will be possible to get to the completion of these other three volumes very speedily, and publish at least one of them almost immediately.

During the year we changed the method of publication of certain trade statistics. A new series of monthly reports is being issued. We are also going to produce an annual trade report. The first of these is in preparation and will be issued during the course of the year. In connection with these trade statistics, in conjunction with certain other groups, we collected statistics showing the countries of origin as distinct from countries of consignment. That is an idea that will turn out to be very valuable. We propose to continue that work; also the collection of statistics with regard to agriculture, transport, prices, live stock, cost of living, unemployment, labour exchanges, industrial disputes, and so on. We have in an advanced state of preparation a statistical abstract that will contain in one volume a number of statistics of the Free State. The first issue of that abstract should be available in a few months time.

The second section of the Department, to which I will refer briefly, is the section called the Trade and Industry Branch. Here the work is so multitudinous that I find it very difficult to concentrate on any one thing more than another, in the absence of any precise request for information on a special point. The work is varied. I described it in very considerable detail on another occasion. The varied activities of the branch have been kept up. On the labour side there has been great activity during the year, investigating such things as wages, conditions of labour, so as to have these in handy form for the purpose of comparison with other countries, and for the purpose of putting information before prospective industrialists when these make enquiries as to rates that would have to be paid here, and the conditions in which workers in a particular industry would normally live. We have had considerable difficulty with one big item in connection with disputes during the year. It is not generally recognised that some of these disputes stop short and do not become known to the public. It is not generally recognised how much work is done in the conciliation line. Roughly there has been through the year one trade dispute of an important type to be dealt with pretty nearly every week. Of course, once a dispute starts it does not mean that it is finished within a week. There have been some forty to fifty of these disputes to be decided during the year.

During the year also this side of the branch had considerable investigation to do arising out of the report of the Commission on technical education and the production of the Apprenticeship Bill, which was before the House a few days ago, by means of which we hope to effect considerable improvement in the conditions under which apprentices are taken into business, and particularly considerable improvement in the training of a particular kind in an industry. On this side of the branch's activity in connection with the international labour office conventions, the post-war view has been that it is better to level up conditions through the world, particularly on the Continent, so that in any conflict that emerged after the war in the economic plane there should be something approaching equal conditions. This country has a pretty good record in the matter of the number of conventions that have been received, accepted and put into force in the country.

On the general side of inducing industrialists to embark on enterprises in this country, we have to rely in the main on the officers of the branch who have to deal with the Advisory Committees. I spoke at length last year of the work done by these committees. There are some thirty or so of them, composed of representatives of industries, grouped in certain ways. With these we have frequent contact, and in conjunction with them we approach people who are the cause of difficulties and seek to have things remedied. We are gaining more and more the confidence of these industrial groups. These committees are making more regular application to us in connection with difficulties that arise, and to a greater degree than ever before they are paying very definite testimony to the work that is being done by the Department's officers in getting conditions improved for them. I have spoken already of the work that has to be done on the conciliation side, through intervention in labour disputes and in conjunction with the collection of material relating to wages and conditions of labour. The information that is so derived hardly ever relates entirely to the particular matter that is in dispute. In the course of the dispute almost all the conditions of a particular industry are brought to the surface. The result is that the officials who deal with it are very well informed as to the general conditions in industry, and this information, added to the information that is derived through the Advisory Committees, leaves us in a very good position to adjudicate on difficulties as they arise, and to give good advice to people who may be seeking to open up in the country.

On the whole, the main work of this side of the Department is regarded as procuring the best survey of industry as it exists in the country and clearing the ground for prospective new industrialists. This we can do, as I said, through getting a pretty good idea of the conditions that exist in business. We have to pay special attention to these industries which have received the benefit of tariffs. We have the special duty of seeing how far employment has increased, how far increases in prices may have been caused by the first imposition of a tariff, how far these are being progressively lowered and how far we are sure at the end the prices have reached a point which in all the circumstances of the country is fair. We then, I say, put some of the information which we have at the disposal of people who come to us from time to time seeking new openings. I make a discrimination by saying that we put some of that information at their disposal, because, clearly, some of the information gathered through an intimate connection with an advisory committee is most confidential and cannot be broadcast to people, who if they entered into the country's work, would be in the position of rivals to some of those already existing. On the whole we have effected pretty good touch on many occasions between people who seemed interested in certain things— the people who had technical skill— and those who had money. Some of the industries, in particular one or two, which have received the benefit of the tariff in the country have found that in order to keep employment at the figure which it had reached in the earlier years of the tariff they have to turn their attention towards an export market.

In this connection there is another side of the work, to see that the trade relations of this country, and any other country to which there is likely to be an export outlet, are put upon the most favourable terms that we can secure. The trade relations as between this country and the other countries where there might be an export outlet are in the main satisfactory. Some of them are regulated by temporary agreements. Some of these temporary agreements will have to be continued for quite a long time. Two treaties have, of course, been signed. One is on the point of being signed and a few others are in the course of preparation. There are tendencies observable with regard to a change in the conditions on which countries will enter into very close trade relations, so that it is not always easy to get speed in this matter. Some countries desire to wait until they see how certain continental tendencies are developing before they commit themselves to a new rigid convention.

We have also a duty which we carry out of giving to any of our business people whatever information we can collect through the medium of our representatives abroad, or whatever information can be collected even by correspondence, as to the openings in other countries, the tariff system in other countries and the impediment put upon goods going into these countries, and the standing of these people with whom it is desirable to do business. A certain amount of the information collected in the branch is given publicity through the medium of the "Trade Journal." A certain amount of other matter is given to inquirers when they come along, or given through the medium of officials, when they get in contact with industrialists, arising out of disputes or any other matter, and where it seems to them that there is any prospect of these people whom they meet being encouraged by the receipt of this information to develop in a particular way.

On occasions during the year action has been taken in connection with the sale of products supposed to be manufactured in this country, and which are being falsely described in that way. A subsidiary activity of that type has preceded applications which are made for registration of trade marks which would seem to indicate production in the country when, in fact, the production is not here, when these should not be registered.

The producers in the country have I think, some of them certainly, expressed their agreement that the branch has been of great assistance to them through the medium of the Government contract. I have representatives on the committee which deals with these matters and we, in every case, try to see, where an article is procurable in this country, that there should be a very vigorous attempt made to have the contract limited to the home manufacturers. We have a corresponding duty on the other side to see, if there is going to be a preference given, and in nearly all of these cases there is, that that will be used in a proper way and that the consumer will not have to pay anything beyond what is reasonable if the contract, as it is in many cases, is definitely confined to applicants from the country. We have through meetings for special purposes had an examination made of prices in special trades. The public has had the benefit of a reduction in prices particularly in one item and in certain sides of two or three other matters. There are certain disputes about prices still going on and we believe that this method of getting to grips with the particular people involved, on a special case being made, is likely to produce better results and is less wasteful in administrative energy and expense than a system of compulsory regulation of prices.

During the last year attention was called to two movements of a type that seemed to be very close to unfair restriction of trade. Both of these were taken up after attention was called to them. In one case the combination has practically disappeared and in the other the activity which was feared has certainly not developed.

Another branch specially referred to in the report is the geological survey. I should like just to direct special attention to that particular branch. Its work is hardly known. In fact, any comments passed upon the geological survey in this country seems to be based almost entirely on a misapprehension as to what is being done. Foreign observers are much more acute in their remarks on this and have on occasions on which any of them visited the country passed the comment that there is as good a geological survey here as any country can point to. The system under which the survey works— it has only been in conjunction with my Department for the last three years—is this, that year after year there is plotted a field programme for the year. That field programme is carried through as well as conditions allow, and generally, results in the production of matter of a particular type and information added to it in the form of a memorial. The maps are produced in the Ordnance Survey and the memorials are published. If I might take an example. Last year— 1930-31—the field work consisted in mapping parts of the Connaught coalfield. That is a piece of work which has been going on for a considerable number of years and is thought likely to be finished in one other field year.

What coalfield did the Minister mention?

It is mainly the Arigna area. In addition to that they had in their programme for the last year the investigation and mapping of the phosphate in County Clare, and certain copper deposits in Kerry, Cork, and Waterford. As far as the copper and phosphate deposits are concerned the work has been practically completed. A special memoir describing the Clare phosphates mapped is about being published. It is in an advanced stage of preparation and should be published very soon. The coalfield work which is being done is only a continuation of certain other field years and is not likely to be finished for some time.

In the last three years we have tried to direct the attention of the survey more to operations which seem likely to have economic results, but from time to time we, unfortunately, had to interrupt the work entered upon in the beginning of the year, because we were getting inquiries of an urgent nature as to certain matters, and where it seems reasonable and important enough we sometimes do divert from the original programme mapped out for the year to other matters. That is one of the reasons why the map of Arigna field is not completed. Last year, for instance, arising out of certain inquiries a particular map of Blessington area was put in course of preparation, and a preparatory memoir descriptive of the work done is almost completed. That was the result of certain inquiries made, and, as a result, attention was directed to the upper reaches of the valley of the Liffey, where certain valuable brickclays and other builders' materials are known to lie. A development last year was the attention paid to the silver mines district with regard to certain zinc ore deposits. There is at present very full investigation being carried out by means of boring and investigation, and there is reasonable hope from the operations in progress that there may be a relatively good mining project established.

Two special maps were called for from the Survey Department last year. One, made for my own branch, showing the distribution of certain heavy clay soils and sub-soils in a particular county, was called for for a special reason. Another map called for urgently by the Department of Lands and Fisheries showed the areas occupied by limestone and certain calcarcous drifts in the country.

Technical advice has been given to inquiries on a variety of matters. People interested in obtaining information as to the location of a variety of raw material, such as pipe clays, fire clays, china clays, reef quartz, silica of certain types, barytes, crude black pigment, peat, common ores, and certain other matters were all dealt with in the course of the year. I would direct the attention of the House to the importance of the work done by this survey, and to the various maps and the publications which are issued by them from time to time, because if one were to take serious count of the remarks that are commonly made through the country from time to time there is, apparently, a belief that the whole geological survey has been neglected. I ask anyone who would be likely, at the beginning, to express a point of view like that to pause, and see what material the geological survey can put at his disposal before that comment is made.

In addition to the work done by the survey, through its programme of field work each year, there is an economic geologist attached to the Department with a tremendous personal acquaintance with the whole geology of the country. He is put in immediate contact with any person where an inquiry seems to be a good one and where it is likely there are going to be developments.

In that connection attention has been drawn to comments made on the mines and minerals legislation which has been promised. I have seen it stated that certain people who might be working here have left the country by reason of the absence of legislation. I do not know of those people, and I do not know why they should have left the country, because although the legislation has been delayed for quite unavoidable reasons, there are a considerable number of people making preliminary investigations and borings. They have done so at my request when they came to me and explained their difficulties. I have explained the situation as I see it and the difficulties that are inevitably going to confront people while the Constitution remains as it is, but I have indicated to them ways in which preliminary work which is generally very long and sometimes expensive might be got on with while legislation is being awaited. The draft Bill has been received from the office of the Parliamentary Draftsman, and is now being finally discussed by the departments. Leaving out one important point which may have to be left afterwards to the courts for determination, the Bill ought soon to be in final form, and there is every expectation that it will be law before we rise for the summer.

The transport side of the Department is a side to which I am not going to refer to-day, at least on the general question, because there are at least three Bills on transport which are now being considered, and on which the whole general transport question will have afterwards to be reviewed. I think I cannot say anything more than indicate the hope, and I have every hope, that they will certainly be introduced before the House rises for the summer recess. I had certain proposed legislation in connection with my side of the transport problem considered last year, and very definitely considered, but I make no secret of the fact that that was specially directed to the betterment and the preservation of the existing railway systems. During the end of last year and early this year, after consultation with the directors of the railway company, I found it necessary to embark upon another line. In all these matters, having a very definite view that the railways of the country must be preserved, I had to pay special attention, at least I felt myself bound to pay special attention, to railway requirements all the time, of course ruling these by what I think the transport requirements of the country are, as opposed to the mere railway requirements. As I did not receive any final opinion from the railway company, on certain points I put up to them, until the early months of this year, that legislation has had necessarily to be postponed. Certain minor points may arise on the Vote but as far as transport generally is concerned I am leaving that matter over for discussion when these Bills, probably three in all, are introduced.

Would the Minister indicate roughly what he means by three Bills?

I shall give no indication, because I am not going to indicate policy ahead. There is another piece of legislation which has been completed by my Department for a long time, but, owing to the congestion, was crushed out of the draftsman's office until some time ago. It is now practically completed by the draftsman, and will receive speedy consideration in the Department after I receive it back from that office. That is the Merchandise Marks Bill dealing with the marking of goods coming into the country. I shall also have, within the next two or three weeks, a Bill about which Deputy Hogan asked dealing with the fisheries on the Shannon. I think that is all I have to say on the Vote.

I move: "That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration." This amendment was put on the Order Paper for the purpose of giving members of this Party and the House generally, so far as they may desire to do so, an opportunity of expressing their disapproval regarding the failure of the Minister's half-way house policy for industrial development, his failure to admit and deal with the problem of unemployment, his failure to produce a solution of the chaotic conditions of the transport industry, and his refusal to admit and deal with the profiteering evil which is causing such hardship amongst the residents of our towns and cities. Citizens in this and every other State and every thinking politician will readily admit that the man or woman who works pays, either directly or indirectly, for the person who does not work. Scientific development and the replacement of man power by machinery has undoubtedly added considerably to the list of unemployed in this and in every other country. We have Ministers going out on parades, especially at week ends, throughout the country endeavouring to persuade and gull the people into the idea that this country is in a much more prosperous condition to-day than when they took over office seven or eight years ago. After all, those of us who wish to analyse the position and to look at it in its proper light will have to study the figures available and try to find out to what extent the Minister's statements on these matters are accurate.

The Minister for Local Government admitted here yesterday that for the week ending 28th March, 1931, the number of people in receipt of home assistance reached the remarkable figure of 84,396. The figure in 1914— I admit that the comparison may not be a sound one—was 14,663. The last figure available to Deputies in the report of the Local Government Department showed that for the year ending 31st March, 1928, a sum of £404,556 had to be provided for home assistance. For the year ending 31st of March, 1931, the amount was £547,984. Is there anything in those figures to justify the repeated statements made by Ministers all over the country regarding the present position of the people and the prosperous condition of the country? It is generally admitted by those who know more about the subject than I do, those who serve on public bodies, that about 50 per cent. of those who receive home assistance are eligible for work if it is made available for them. Coming back to the figures quoted recently by the Minister in regard to the registered number of unemployed, he said that the latest figure was 25,642. We know perfectly well, as well as the Minister, though he will not admit it, that that figure does not represent the actual amount of unemployment. In order to prove that let us take the case of the City of Dublin. Last week according to the report of the South Dublin Union Commissioners, there were 7,200 people in receipt of poor law assistance in the city. Out of the 25,642 unemployed persons in the country we have figures to show that about 8,000 are resident in the City of Dublin alone. It is fairly well known also that people who are eligible to apply for, and to receive, home help cannot at the same time be in receipt of unemployment insurance benefit. That, so far as I know, is the attitude taken up by the authorities responsible for administering home assistance. The real figure, therefore, for the unemployed in Dublin is approximately 15,000 instead of the 8,000 which, the Minister claims, represents the number of registered unemployed. I have been a resident of Dublin for 25 years, but never have I come across so many able-bodied men looking for work, which they are unable to get. Let us study the latest report of the St. Vincent de Paul Society, and add the figures they give to those which I have given, and let us ask ourselves honestly whether the position is as it is represented to be by the President and the Ministers during their tours throughout the country.

I venture to express the opinion that the President and Ministers, when speaking in the country on these matters, rely more on the information they get from the lords and ladies who attend Cumann na nGaedheal receptions than on the information which they sometimes get from ordinary citizens. Let them get away from royal reception rooms and get into the country, and, if they do, they will admit that the position is different to that which they describe. I should say also, and I do not know what impression it will convey to the public, that I notice from a report in the "Irish Independent" that the number of tall hats worn at Punchestown recently showed a considerable decrease compared with previous years. I wonder whether that is a sign of a return to sanity amongst the ranks of the new and the old aristocracy? What impression does it convey to the Minister's mind? The worsening of the position, as I claim to see it at the moment, in the rural parts, at any rate, is due to the considerable fall in prices of produce which our producers have for sale, either in the home or foreign market, and the fact that prices, particularly for agricultural produce, are so low is mainly due, though I am sure that Ministers will not admit it, to the British banking policy to which we are so closely tied. British bankers are dictating the prices at which they will buy the food which our people here produce for the British market. The sooner we face that, problem the better. I move to report progress.

Progress reported.
The Dáil adjourned at 2 p.m. until Wednesday, 6th May.
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