Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 May 1931

Vol. 38 No. 13

Financial Resolutions—Report.

Minister for Finance (Mr. Blythe)

I move:

That the Dáil agree with the Committee in Resolution No. 1.

(1) That income tax shall be charged for the year beginning on the 6th day of April, 1931, at the rate of three shillings in the pound.

(2) That sur-tax shall be charged for the year beginning on the 6th day of April, 1931, at the same rates as those at which it was charged for the year beginning on the 6th day of April, 1930.

(3) That the several statutory and other provisions which were in force during the year beginning on the 6th day of April, 1930, in relation to income tax and sur-tax shall, subject to the provisions of Part II of the Finance Act, 1929 (No. 32 of 1929), have effect in relation to the income tax and sur-tax to be charged as aforesaid for the year beginning on the 6th day of April, 1931.

(4) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927 (No. 7 of 1927).

Question put and agreed to.

Minister for Finance (Mr. Blythe)

I move:

That the Dáil agree with the Committee in Resolution No. 2.

2.—(1) That a customs duty at the rate of fourpence per gallon shall be charged, levied and paid on all hydrocarbon light oils imported into Saorstát Eireann on or after the 7th day of May, 1931, and on all hydrocarbon light oils imported into Saorstát Eireann before the 7th day of May, 1931, and landed in Saorstát Eireann on or after that date.

(2) That for the purposes of this Resolution the expression "hydrocarbon light oils" means hydrocarbon oils of which not less than fifty per cent. by volume distils at a temperature not exceeding 185 degrees centigrade, or of which not less than ninety-five per cent. by volume distils at a temperature not exceeding 240 degrees centigrade, or which give off an inflammable vapour at a temperature of less than 22.8 degrees centigrade when tested in the manner prescribed by the Acts relating to petroleum.

The method of testing oils for the purpose of ascertaining whether they comply with the provisions of this paragraph relating to the distillation of a certain volume thereof at a certain temperature shall be such as the Revenue Commissioners may prescribe.

(3) A drawback equal to the amount of the duty shown to the satisfaction of the Revenue Commissioners to have been paid in respect of the goods in question shall be allowed on the exportation from Saorstát Eireann or the shipment or deposit in a bonded warehouse for use as ships' stores of any hydrocarbon light oils, or of any article in which there is contained any hydrocarbon light oil which was used as an ingredient in the manufacture or preparation thereof, and on the loading into any aircraft of any such oils or articles for use on a voyage to a place outside Saorstát Eireann.

(4) That the following provisions shall have effect with respect to the duty and to the drawback mentioned in this Resolution, that is to say:—

(a) the provisions of Section 98 of the Customs Consolidation Act, 1876, which relate to the charging of duty on the quantity of goods ascertained by weight, measure or strength at the time of actual delivery thereof, shall apply to hydrocarbon light oils when cleared from a warehouse for home use as they apply to the specially excepted goods mentioned in the said Section 98;

(b) subject to compliance with such conditions as to security for the re-exportation of the goods as the Revenue Commissioners may impose, the duty shall not be chargeable in respect of hydrocarbon light oils imported for exportation after transit through Saorstát Eireann or by way of transhipment;

(c) the Revenue Commissioners may in relation to any goods in respect of which the drawback is payable, relax as they may think fit any provisions contained in the Customs Consolidation Act, 1876, or in any enactment amending that Act, with respect to the giving of security or entry before shipment;

(d) if any person for the purpose of obtaining any repayment of the duty makes or causes to be made any statement or representation which is untrue in any material particular, he shall be liable at the election of the Revenue Commissioners either to a customs penalty equal to treble the value of the goods (including duty) or to a customs penalty of one hundred pounds and the goods in respect of which the offence is committed shall be forfeited.

(5) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927 (No. 7 of 1927).

I would just say in connection with the Resolution that under the section of the Bill it is proposed to introduce a provision that will exempt turpentine, which is at present charged with this particular duty.

Mr. Lemass

There are some points arising out of this Resolution that I would like the Minister to clear up. In his Budget statement the Minister stated that the retail price of petrol in this country was higher than in Great Britain, allowing for the duty to be added. This higher price is due, it is said, to the cost of distribution. Some time ago I addressed a Parliamentary question to the President of the Executive Council, inquiring if the Government had taken any action with a view to securing a reduction in the price of petrol here, in consequence of the higher charges in the Twenty-Six Counties than in Northern Ireland and Great Britain. I was informed by the President that representations were being made to the oil companies in the matter. Some time later I addressed another question to the Minister for Industry and Commerce for the purpose of discovering the result of these representations. The Minister stated that an attempt had been made by the oil companies to justify the difference in price on the ground that distribution costs were higher in the Free State than in Northern Ireland or in Great Britain. He added, however, that he was not satisfied that the difference was justified on the grounds advanced by the oil companies. He also added that he was prepared to consider the control of petrol prices under certain conditions. Since these questions were asked in the House some readjustment of prices has taken place, but allowing for the duty the price of petrol is still higher here than in Great Britain or in Northern Ireland, and from what inquiries I have been able to make I cannot find that there is any justification whatever for it. I cannot see how the cost of distributing petrol in Dublin, for example, could be higher than the cost of distributing petrol in Belfast. I think if the Government took up the question with the oil companies with sufficient vigour they would be able to secure a further reduction in the price here.

The Minister in his Budget speech spoke as follows: "This levy will only bring the import price of petrol up to the level at which it stood four or five years ago. In view of the present relative levels of wholesale and retail prices it ought not to be necessary for the whole of the duty to be passed on to the public." I would like if the Minister would tell us exactly what he meant by that. The Minister is, no doubt, aware that the price at which the retailers sell petrol is fixed for them by the oil companies. They are under contract to sell at a fixed price, and if they fail to do so they are liable to have their supplies stopped. Cases have arisen in which supplies have been stopped. Is it the Minister's view that the profits made by the retailers are too high and should be reduced? It has been stated in the Press—I do not know whether it is true or not—that the profit on petrol sold to commercial users is only 2d. per gallon, and to ordinary users 3d. per gallon. The implication in the Minister's statement was that the wholesalers of petrol were making only reasonable profits, and that a certain amount of profiteering was being engaged in by the retailers. Is that exactly what he meant, or what exactly did he intend to convey to the House when he expressed the hope that the price of petrol would not be increased by the additional amount of the tax? As he knows now, his hope has not been realised. The price has been increased to the consumer by the full amount of the tax.

I would be glad also if the Minister would tell us what arrangement it is intended to make for collecting the tax on petrol coming in in tanks of motors from Northern Ireland, or if any arrangement will be made for giving a rebate on petrol exported in the tanks of motors going into Northern Ireland. Is it intended to subject such petrol to a tax at all? We would like to know what arrangement the Minister intends to make to deal with petrol which is imported or exported in that manner.

Mr. Good

I was glad to hear the Minister say that he did not intend to press the tax on turpentine because since the proposal was put forward in the House I have had a large number of complaints from different bodies who use commodities containing turpentine. I am satisfied that if it had been included it would have added a great deal of delay and irritation to those engaged in industry. There is one other commodity which is being stopped by the customs and that I would like to have some information about. Heretofore supplies of printers' ink have been admitted free, but within the last few days a large consignment of this particular commodity has been stopped by the customs. I would be glad to know from the Minister the reason why that was stopped, and if it has been stopped for analysis would it not have been possible to take a small quantity for the purpose instead of holding up a whole consignment? Possibly, the Minister could give us some information on that point.

Major Myles

I would like to draw the Minister's attention to the great inconvenience caused, particularly along the Northern border, through the stopping of goods in the line of paints and oils, even down as far as boot polish, for the purpose of analysis, to find out how much petrol spirit or hydrocarbon oil, which is the technical name for it, let us say which boot polish contains. Even printers' ink is being held up. I can see no reason why the following articles should be held up: paints, varnishes, enamel lacquers and the like; embrocation and liniments, liquid adhesive rubber solution, tyre solution; metal polish, boot polish, floor polish; printers' ink and insecticides of all kinds. Perhaps some of us did not look into things as closely as we should have done when we passed the tax on petrol. When we passed the tax we did not realise that we were passing it on a variety of commodities. The list I have given you is a list of things of which hydrocarbon oil forms a part. Here is a further list: light petroleum ether, motor spirit, white spirit and special solvent; benzol, joluol, xylol, solvent naphthas; mineral naphthas, vaporising oil, light oil from coal, light oil from shale, light oil from tar, and light oil from Bergins' process; turpentine, resin spirit and mixtures of these. The ordinary people in the rest of Ireland do not meet these difficulties. I have seen quite recently the hopeless confusion that exists and I am afraid it will continue to exist over things which contain even one drop of hydrocarbon oil. To have these sent for analysis is hopeless from the point of view of people who want to get business done. There was an Act passed some twenty or thirty years ago whereby all these articles that I have mentioned were taken in, due to the fact that they have a proportion of spirit. It is up to the Minister to delete such a provision from the Bill. The Dáil never intended, so far as I could see, to put a tax on all these things. It was intended to tax motor spirit and nothing else. I think this is making a laughing stock of the whole thing.

Mr. Cole

I would like to ask the Minister if it is intended to allow petrol for agricultural purposes to be imported free of tax. During the war time petrol used for agricultural purposes was not taxed, and the same consideration should be given now to any petrol used for agricultural purposes.

Mr. Flinn

After the speech of Deputy Major Myles I take it that tomorrow morning the "Irish Times" will come out with its usual leading article: "An Infliction. As long as the petrol tax remains in existence the door is banged and barred in the face of the North," in the same way as they brought out an issue some time ago stating that as long as vice is prohibited in the Irish Free State the door is banged and barred in the face of the North. The Minister told us on the last occasion that turpentine was included and he has now been good enough to tell us that turpentine is excluded. That is an announcement which I think we will all welcome because turpentine does enter largely into certain manufactures. The Minister, I think in error on the last occasion, told us that white spirit did not enter into this particular case, that white spirit was not covered by this tax.

Mr. Blythe

It is.

Mr. Flinn

That is a point we want to get at. White spirit enters into certain industries, and I understand that it was not intended that the tax should hit this particular industry, and I also understand that the Minister and his Department have been engaged in investigating how that particular difficulty could be got over. I am going on the assumption that it is the intention of the Minister to find machinery by which this tax would not be imposed in certain cases——

Mr. Blythe

Not in the case of white spirit.

Mr. Flinn

Is it intended then that white spirit which is used in polish and other things manufactured in the Free State should be liable to that tax? If so, I think that that is a mistake and it is one that ought and could be easily remedied. It is one of those difficulties that we had in relation to the flour tariff when it was a question of the exemption of flour in the case of Messrs. Jacob, or, in other words, giving them a licence to import flour. It was said that it was impossible to deal with the matter, but when it came down to brass tacks there was a means of dealing with it.

As far as I understand there is a perfectly simple means of dealing with white spirit in relation to these industries. A licence can be given for the importation of white spirit to every particular industry which is using it for manufacturing purposes in exactly the same way as in relation to Messrs. Fords in Cork, we decided that tractor parts imported for the use of tractors manufactured here should be free. You had exactly the same case in relation to the constituents of soap. Ordinary washing soda was held up as one of the possible constituents of soap when that particular tax was put on, but arrangements were made by which the manufacturers were able to import the stuff under licence, and I think it was clear of that tax. Between now and the Finance Bill it might be definitely excluded.

I am going to ask the Minister again to consider whether some simple machinery cannot be devised to prevent Irish trade being hit by this particular tax. After the petrol tax I am in the unfortunate position of having received a certain amount of undue and improper popularity, due to the misreporting of a speech of mine. As I do not want to sail under false colours, I would like to put the matter right. It was stated that I said that there was no reason and no justification whatever for the petrol tax. There is no technical justification whatever for any tax which is a tax upon the instruments of production in the process of production. That is a very different thing, however, from saying that there is no justification for a tax, say, on petrol used for pleasure motoring or anything of that kind. I think you have got to separate this tax into its different constituents and take them separately. There are a considerable number of millions of gallons of petrol used in purely industrial processes in this country. The Minister for Industry and Commerce was good enough to supply me with the figures from the last census of production. Unfortunately I do not happen to have them with me. Petrol is evidently used in a considerable number of processes. I recollect that in the case of creameries, for instance, it would cost them between £3,000 and £5,000 a year. It is quite obvious that a tax on petrol used for purely industrial purposes, is, on the face of it, wrong, unless you are prepared to say that you will tax other constituents of production. To get revenue from other constituents of production in the process of production would be quite unreasonable. It would be just as reasonable, as I said, to tax coal, lubricating oil, or anything of that kind which is the raw material of production. The Minister himself has, in relation to barley, yeast, and things of that kind, refused to put on a tax, on precisely that ground, that he would be taxing a raw material in the process of production.

That is the first case. The second case is where petrol is used for industrial transport. To tax transport for the purpose of revenue is also to tax one of the processes of production. You are simply putting up the cost of production in the country to the extent to which you tax motor lorries, or to the extent to which you tax any passenger vehicle which is carrying people on ordinary occasions for commercial work. Therefore, it seems to me that logically, assuming one was simply looking at this as a broad question of principle, you would have to say that you would not tax industrial petrol used for motor power, and you would not tax petrol which was used for ordinary commercial transport, while you would be entitled to tax pleasure motoring petrol to any extent which was electorally desirable. Against that we have to put the fact that a certain proportion of this tax, in so far as it going specifically for the purpose of derating, is going into the possession of authorities who are now spending money upon the maintenance of roads. To the extent to which that money is going through the rating authority for the replacement of damage to the roads used by vehicles in the course of their commercial operations, or to the extent to which it is financing the capital cost of the improved roads required in order to carry heavy motor transport, it is as logically justifiable and as logically desirable as upon the mere ground of tax revenue it is undesirable.

I have not been able to get sufficiently exact figures to enable me to say how much of the money which will go to the road maintenance authority from the petrol tax would be replacement tax. The difficulty is to estimate what amount of damage is done by particular vehicles. My own belief is that the amount of damage done to a good road by an ordinary motor car is practically nil. Some surveyors have told me that the use of properly driven light motor cars upon good roads is an actual improvement to the roads, and I, personally, am inclined to agree with them. So that the replacement tax, as far as light motor vehicles are concerned, would be nil. But against that the Government are entitled, in my opinion, to get from vehicles of that kind such revenue as is otherwise desirable, while the damage from heavy lorries goes up geometrically with the badness of the road. In so far as the local authorities are concerned, the money which they get from the petrol tax will be used, as far as it is used on the roads, very largely upon those bye-roads which, to the extent to which they are used at all by heavy lorries, are more grievously damaged by them. It would seem that a considerable proportion of the actual petrol tax may represent replacement.

We are not in a position to reduce this to a mathematical formula, but there is a case, I think, on balance, for the tax itself. The real objection to it is the objection to all additional taxes. In my opinion, it was unnecessary. If I were asked to judge the petrol tax as a tax alternative to some other tax, there seems to be a considerable case for it compared with some existing taxes. My difficulty in accepting the tax is not that it is not an alternative tax, but that it is an additional tax, and I am very strongly of opinion that the best benefit that we can give to any portion of the community at present by taxation is to leave it in the pockets of the people themselves. We have seen the thing operating more or less exactly in relation to the sugar tax. We can trace it in certain ways here in the petrol tax, and, in my opinion, where we can benefit the people most is, either by getting better value for the existing amount of tax which we get, or by reducing the amount of the proportion of the total revenue of the State which we take out of the pockets of the people and use for administrative purposes.

Dr. Ryan

Before the Minister replies, I should like to know whether he is satisfied that he took sufficient precautions against forestalling before introducing the Budget. It is stated that an enormous amount of petrol came into the country for some time before this tax was imposed. It should have been possible for the Minister to take stock of the amount of petrol held by the distributing companies even after the Budget was introduced, because they are the people who are supposed to have got the big profit out of this. The retailers were not in a position to make big profits because, although they were asked by the distributors to charge the price of the petrol plus the tax immediately after the tax was introduced, they say that they were only making up for the loss which they had to bear during the recent fall in the price of petrol. During the last six or twelve months there were various reductions made in the price of petrol, and each time a reduction was made the petrol they had in stock was subject to that fall and they had a certain loss. Even though they increased the price when the tax was introduced, they say they were only making up for that loss. The big distributing companies did make a profit and it should be possible to collect the tax on what they had in stock. We are also told that a large number of private car owners got in large stocks of petrol before the tax was introduced. I suppose they are not to blame for trying to take advantage of the tax when they were fairly certain that it was going to be imposed. They were, however, doing a very dangerous thing in keeping large stocks of petrol in private houses and garages, and they were also committing an illegal act, because, as the law stands, I believe a private owner is only allowed to stock a certain amount of petrol.

I do not know whether the Minister is satisfied that he could not have dealt with this question of the petrol tax in a way which would be fairer to the revenue, to retailers and to private owners.

It would appear from the way the thing worked out that the only people who got big profits out of the tax were the distributing companies, and these distributing companies could be dealt with quite easily by the Revenue authorities, or somebody else taking stock of what they had on hands. I would also like to know from the Minister what is the position with regard to paraffin. It is a thing the people in the country are very much interested in. I would like to know whether a tax is to be imposed on paraffin, and if not, how the distinction is to be made, and what the regulations will be with regard to the selling of paraffin as well as petrol.

Mr. Blythe

Deputy Lemass made certain points about prices. I have nothing to say in addition to the remarks I made on the Budget statement except just this: That the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who has been dealing with the matter, and whom I consulted before the introduction of the Budget, was of opinion that, although the retail price had been reduced it had not been reduced as much as it ought to have been. He is taking up with the importing companies the question of a further reduction in the price of petrol, which, he is of opinion, having all the facts that it was possible to gather before him, is due.

No notice will be taken of petrol in the tanks of cars coming from Northern Ireland into the Saorstát, or in the tanks of cars leaving the Saorstát and going into Northern Ireland.

Deputy Good asked why printers' ink had been held up. It was held up under Section 7 of the Finance Act of 1901, which prescribes that when a tax is imposed upon a particular article all articles containing that commodity are liable to be taxed, so that in that way printers' ink would be held up for examination. In the great majority of cases, printers' ink will be found to be free of duty, but, of course in the first instance it would have to be examined. Later on no difficulty would occur because it would be established pretty well what brands of printers' ink were dutiable, and what were not. It would be possible for all the people concerned in the importation of the goods to which Deputy Myles refers, to pay a deposit and to have their goods released. In the case of any goods found not to be dutiable the amount of the deposit would be refunded. What, in effect, Deputy Myles asked for is that, in respect of petrol, Section 7 of the Act of 1901 should not apply. That is a possible solution, but it would require some more consideration than I have so far been able to give it. It may be that there is no duty involved, and it may be that it would be possible to carry out a corresponding change in respect of petrol or white spirit used definitely in the manufacture of any of these goods by way of letting the manufacturer be supplied free of duty. That would depend largely I think upon the number of manufacturers, and the possibility of administering the matter without undue charge.

It would not be possible, for instance, to allow paints which contain white spirit, or any article which contains white spirit or petrol, in duty free, if the Saorstát manufacturer had to use a duty paid white spirit or petrol in the manufacture of his goods. If we are going to make any change in the application of Section 7 of the Act of 1901 it will be necessary to arrange that the Saorstát manufacturers of competing articles should get their amount free. Whether that could be done or not will really depend upon the number, and the possibility of controlling the supplies of duty free spirit to them without increasing too much the expense. That is a matter upon which no decision has yet been made.

As regards turpentine the matter was relatively easy. It was found that no substantial difficulty would arise in connection with the exception of turpentine itself and articles containing turpentine from the scope of the duty. There are certain additional difficulties in the case of white spirit.

In Great Britain although great efforts have been made to induce the Government to exempt white spirit it has been steadily refused. Of course we could not exempt white spirit entirely because that would cause the tax to break down, but the admission of white spirit for manufacturers engaged in the production of certain articles is a matter that is being considered and no decision has yet been taken. I do not think it would be possible to agree to admit petrol for agricultural purposes free of duty, because we would be immediately up against the difficulties of rebates and administrative costs and the difficulties would be too great. Of course certain other users would make a case and, as the exemptions were extended the difficulties would increase.

Then with regard to forestalling I do not think that there was any very serious forestalling. Undoubtedly there was a certain excess of imports of petrol, and a good number of people did anticipate the imposition of a tax on petrol and laid in some stock. It is even said that private people bought stocks and laid them in, but I do not think that the excess imports of petrol were on a large scale. So far as any figures that had been submitted to me go they do not show it was on a serious scale. Nearly any duty unless a duty imposed without any expectation of its being on the way, leads to a certain amount of forestalling. I do not think anything could be done in the matter.

Mr. Lemass

Will the Minister tell us what legislative authority there will be for the admission duty free of petrol in the tanks of cars coming in from Northern Ireland?

Mr. Blythe

The same authority there is of admitting a certain number of cigarettes which the Deputy may have in his pockets when crossing the border. For instance, every Deputy crossing the border theoretically could be charged duty on the suit of clothes and every article of apparel he is wearing, but the custom is not to take any notice.

Mr. Lemass

It is a matter of custom not of legislative sanction?

Mr. Blythe

Yes, a matter of custom.

Mr. Moore

Might I point out that the Minister has ignored the serious point raised by Deputy Dr. Ryan, namely, that he has completely neglected to enforce the regulations regarding the storage of petrol, a fact which in many parts of the country is viewed with much alarm? Forestalling has led to the storage of petrol in dwelling houses and all sorts of places, a proceeding which is very dangerous to life and property. The least the Minister might have said was that he would bring the matter to the notice of the Minister for Justice. There are strict conditions laid down in regard to the storage of petrol but they have been completely ignored during the last few weeks and no notice has been taken of that fact by the Civic Guards.

Mr. Allen

Would the Minister state what is the position in regard to paraffin oil?

Mr. Blythe

Paraffin oil does not come within the specification.

Mr. Allen

Supposing it is brought in as petrol?

Mr. Blythe

We do not expect that there will be any action of that sort. If people begin to deal in oil in that way we will consider it.

Mr. Flinn

Would there be an excise tax on it if it did happen?

Mr. Blythe

We have not provided for one.

Mr. Flinn

I only wanted to know.

Motion put and agreed to.

Mr. Blythe

I move:

"That the Dáil agree with the Committee in Resolution No. 3."

(1) That in addition to the present customs duties, drawbacks, and allowance in respect of sugar, molasses, glucose, and saccharin, there shall, as on and from the 7th day of May, 1931, be charged, levied, and paid the duties specified in the second column of Part I of the Schedule to this Resolution, and there shall be paid and allowed the drawbacks and allowances set out in Part II of the said Schedule.

(2) That in addition to the present excise duties, drawbacks, and allowance in respect of sugar, molasses, glucose, and saccharin, there shall, as on and from the 7th day of May, 1931, be charged, levied and paid the duties specified in the third column of Part I of the Schedule to this Resolution, and there shall be paid and allowed the drawbacks and allowances set out in Part II of the said Schedule.

(3) That on or in respect of all sugar, molasses, glucose, and saccharin in the hands of the manufacturer thereof on the 7th day of May, 1931, there shall be charged, levied, and paid, in addition to the present excise duties, the duties specified in the third column of Part I of the Schedule to this Resolution and there shall be paid and allowed, in addition to the present drawbacks and allowance, the drawbacks and allowance set out in Part II of the said Schedule.

(4) For the purpose of securing the payment of the duties mentioned in the next preceding paragraph of this Resolution, any officer of customs and excise may at any time enter any premises in which the manufacture of sugar, molasses, glucose, or saccharin is or is believed by such officer to be carried on or in which there is or is believed by such officer to be any sugar, molasses, glucose, or saccharin chargeable with any of the said duties and there inspect and take account of the sugar, molasses, glucose, and saccharin in such premises, and search for, inspect and take copies of or extracts from and, if he thinks fit, for that purpose take away any books, accounts, letters, and other documents in such premises relating or believed by such officer to relate to sugar, molasses, glucose, or saccharin chargeable with any of the said duties or to the manufacture of such sugar, molasses, glucose, or saccharin.

(5) Every person who resists, obstructs, or impedes an officer of customs and excise in the exercise of any right or power conferred on such officer by the next preceding paragraph of this Resolution or refuses without lawful and sufficient excuse to produce any document which he is required by such officer under the said paragraph to produce shall be guilty of an offence under this paragraph of this Resolution and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to an excise penalty of fifty pounds.

(6) Every manufacturer of sugar shall, if and whenever so required by the Revenue Commissioners, furnish to the Revenue Commissioners such returns and information as they shall specify in relation to all sugar, molasses, glucose, and saccharin chargeable with the duty mentioned in the third paragraph of this Resolution which is for the time being or was on the 7th day of May, 1931, in the hands or under the control of such manufacturer, and if he fails or refuses so to furnish any such returns or information he shall be guilty of an offence under this paragraph of this Resolution and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to an excise penalty of one hundred pounds.

(7) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927 (No. 7 of 1927).

FIRST SCHEDULE.

SUGAR, MOLASSES, GLUCOSE, SACCHARIN. RATES OF DUTIES, DRAWBACKS AND ALLOWANCES.

PART I.—DUTIES.

ARTICLES	Customs Duty	Excise Duty
	s.	d.	s.	d.
Sugar which, when tested by the polariscope, indicates a polarisation exceeding ninety-eight degrees	the cwt.	4	8	4	8
Sugar of a polarisation not exceeding seventy-six degrees	the cwt.	2	4	2	4
Sugar of a polarisation—
Exceeding 76 and not exceeding 77	the cwt.	2	3.8	2	3.8
,, 77 ,, ,,,,78	,,	2	4.7	2	4.7
,, 78 ,, ,,,,79	,,	2	5.6	2	5.6
,, 79 ,, ,,,,80	,,	2	6.5	2	6.5
,, 80 ,, ,,,,81	,,	2	7.4	2	7.4
,, 81 ,, ,,,,82	,,	2	8.3	2	8.3
,, 82 ,, ,,,,83	,,	2	9.2	2	9.2
,, 83 ,, ,,,,84	,,	2	10.2	2	10.2
,, 84 ,, ,,,,85	,,	2	11.2	2	11.2
,, 85 ,, ,,,,86	,,	3	0.2	3	0.2
,, 86 ,, ,,,,87	,,	3	1.2	3	1.2
,, 87 ,, ,,,,88	,,	3	2.3	3	2.3
,, 88 ,, ,,,,89	,,	3	3.4	3	3.4
,, 89 ,, ,,,,90	,,	3	4.8	3	4.8
,, 90 ,, ,,,,91	,,	3	6.1	3	6.1
,, 91 ,, ,,,,92	,,	3	7.5	3	7.5
,, 92 ,, ,,,,93	,,	3	8.8	3	8.8
,, 93 ,, ,,,,94	,,	3	10.1	3	10.1
,, 94 ,, ,,,,95	,,	3	11.5	3	11.5
,, 95 ,, ,,,,96	,,	4	0.8	4	0.8
,, 96 ,, ,,,,97	,,	4	2.2	4	2.2
,, 97 ,, ,,,,98	,,	4	3.5	4	3.5
Molasses (except when cleared for use by a licensed distiller in the manufacture of spirits) and invert sugar, and all other sugar and extracts from sugar which cannot be completely tested by the polariscope, and on which duty is not specially charged by reference to the other provisions of this part of this Schedule:—
If containing 70 per cent. or more of sweetening matter	the cwt.	2	11½	2	11½
If containing less than 70 per cent. and more than 50 per cent. of sweetening matter	the cwt.	2	1½	2	1½
If containing not more than 50 per cent of sweetening matter	the cwt.	1	0½	1	0½
The amount of sweetening matter to be taken to be the total amount of cane, invert and other sugar contained in the article as determined by analysis in manner directed by the Revenue Commissioners:—
Glucose:
Solid	the cwt.	2	11½	2	11½
Liquid	the cwt.	2	1½	2	1½
Saccharin (including substances of a like nature or use)	the oz.	1	6	1	6

PART II:—DRAWBACKS AND ALLOWANCES.

A.—CUSTOMS DRAWBACKS.

Nature of Drawback	Amount or Rate of Drawback
(1) Drawback on the export or on the shipment or deposit in a bonded warehouse, for use as ship's stores, of duty-paid sugar or molasses (including sugar or molasses produced from duty-paid sugar or molasses) and which has passed a refinery in Saorstát Eireann.	In the case of molasses produced in bond an amount equal to the duty paid and in any other case an amount equal to the duty which would be chargeable on the importation of the like article.
(2) Drawback on the deposit in a bonded warehouse for export of beer in the brewing of which duty-paid sugar or glucose has been used.	An amount equal to the duty paid in respect of the sugar or glucose.
(3) Drawback on the export, or on the shipment, or deposit in a bonded warehouse for use as ship's stores (other than beer) in the manufacture or preparation of which in Saorstát Eireann any duty-paid sugar, molasses, glucose or saccharin has been used.	An amount equal to the duty chargeable in respect of that quantity of the sugar, molasses, glucose or saccharin which appears to the satisfaction of the Revenue Commissioners to have been used in the manufacture or preparation of the goods, or, in the case of residual products, to be contained in the goods.
(4) Drawback to be allowed to a refiner on molasses produced in Saorstát Eireann from sugar, on which the import duty has been paid at the current rate and delivered to a licensed distiller for use in the manufacture of spirits.........................the cwt.	1s. 0½d.

B.—EXCISE DRAWBACKS.

Nature of Drawback	Amount or Rate of Drawback
(1) Drawback on the export or on the shipment or deposit in a bonded warehouse for use as ship's stores of duty-paid sugar, molasses, glucose or saccharin.	An amount equal to the duty paid.
(2) Drawback on the deposit in a bonded warehouse for export of beer in the brewing of which duty-paid sugar or glucose has been used.	An amount equal to the duty paid in respect of the sugar or glucose.
(3) Drawback on the export, or on the shipment, or deposit in a bonded warehouse for use as ship's stores of goods (other than beer) in the manufacture or preparation of which in Saorstát Eireann any duty-paid sugar, molasses, glucose or saccharin has been used.	An amount equal to the duty paid in respect of that quantity of the sugar, molasses, glucose or saccharin which appears to the satisfaction of the Revenue Commissioners to have been used in the manufacture or preparation of the goods.
(4) Drawback to be allowed to a refiner on molasses produced in Saorstát Eireann from duty-paid sugar and delivered to a licensed distiller for use in the manufacture of spirits....................................the cwt.	1s. 0½d.
(5) Drawback on the deposit of duty-paid glucose in a warehouse approved by the Revenue Commissioners under Section 2 of the Manufactured Tobacco Act, 1843, for the manufacture of cavendish and negrohead tobacco.	An amount equal to the drawback which would have been payable on the export of the glucose.

C.—ALLOWANCES TO REFINERS ON MOLASSES PRODUCED IN SAORSTÁT EIREANN AND USED SOLELY FOR THE PURPOSE OF FOOD FOR STOCK.

Nature of Allowance	Rate of Allowance
Allowance on molasses produced from sugar on which duty has been paid on importation or on which the excise duty has been paid.............................the cwt.	1s. 0½d.

Mr. MacEntee

I do not propose to detain the House on this Resolution because the matter will probably be argued more fully on the Committee Stage of the Finance Bill. I only desire to say that our opposition to the tax has not abated in any way and we are more strongly convinced than ever that it is unjust, unfair, and should not be imposed, particularly having regard to the excuse given for its imposition, namely, to provide relief for the farming community. The tax will undoubtedly bear heavily on the poorer and smaller farmers and for that reason we propose, rather than argue the matter in detail now, to divide on the Resolution.

Mr. Lemass

Would the Minister say if it is necessary to give to revenue officers the very extended powers proposed to be given to them under Section 4? It seems to me that the Resolution is very wide. It proposes to authorise any officer at any time to enter any premises in which there is, or is believed by such officer to be, any sugar chargeable with any of the said duties and inspect and take copies of or extracts from and if he thinks fit for that purpose take away any books, accounts, letters, etc. It seems to me to give officers almost unlimited powers. It is hard to see why such powers are necessary.

Mr. Blythe

It applied to only one instance, to the sugar which the Carlow factory had on hands at the date of the Resolution. It has been acted on already and, in fact, it does not matter now.

Mr. Lemass

It gives the officer power to enter the premises on which he believes there is sugar chargeable with duty.

Mr. Flinn

If it has been already acted on, is it necessary to continue the clause?

Mr. Blythe

I think so.

Mr. Lemass

There is a comma missing in line 58 between the words "accounts" and "letters."

Mr. Blythe

I hope there is nothing else wrong.

Mr. Good

The duty on sugar will apply to sugar used for industrial purposes. It is not a very large quantity, but I was wondering whether the Minister would consider the remission of the duty on sugar so used. I do not know that it would affect seriously the finances of his Budget, but it is important to some industries.

Mr. Blythe

We have been taxing competing articles coming in. Any industry using sugar in manufacture will have full protection. The duty on articles containing sugar coming in will be increased correspondingly.

Mr. Good

There are some industries, not very numerous, in which exports are made. Could not an arrangement be come to to meet such cases?

Mr. Blythe

I think we are giving a draw-back. We give a draw-back certainly in all the important ones.

Question put.

The Dáil Divided: Tá, 68; Níl, 49.

Tá

• Aird, William P.
• Beckett, James Walter.
• Bennett, George Cecil.
• Blythe, Ernest.
• Bourke, Séamus A.
• Brennan, Michael.
• Brodrick, Seán.
• Byrne, John Joseph.
• Carey, Edmund.
• Coburn, James.
• Cole, John James.
• Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
• Conlon, Martin.
• Connolly, Michael P.
• Cosgrave, William T.
• Craig, Sir James.
• Daly, John.
• Davis, Michael.
• Doherty, Eugene.
• Dolan, James N.
• Doyle, Peadar Seán.
• Duggan, Edmund John.
• Dwyer, James.
• Egan, Barry M.
• Esmonde, Osmond Thos. Grattan.
• Finlay, Thomas A.
• Fitzgerald, Desmond.
• Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
• Good, John.
• Gorey, Denis J.
• Haslett, Alexander.
• Hassett, John J.
• Heffernan, Michael R.
• Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
• Hennessy, Thomas.
• Hennigan, John.
• Henry, Mark.
• Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
• Holohan, Richard.
• Kelly, Patrick Michael.
• Keogh, Myles.
• Law, Hugh Alexander.
• Leonard, Patrick.
• Lynch, Finian.
• Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
• McDonogh, Martin.
• McFadden, Michael Og.
• Mongan, Joseph W.
• Mulcahy, Richard.
• Murphy, James E.
• Myles, James Sproule.
• Nally, Martin Michael.
• O'Connell, Richard.
• O'Connor, Bartholomew.
• O'Mahony, The.
• O'Reilly, John J.
• O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
• O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
• Reynolds, Patrick.
• Rice, Vincent.
• Roddy, Martin.
• Shaw, Patrick W.
• Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
• Thrift, William Edward.
• Tierney, Michael.
• White, Vincent Joseph.
• Wolfe, George.
• Wolfe, Jasper Travers.

Níl

• Aiken, Frank.
• Allen, Denis.
• Anthony, Richard.
• Blaney, Neal.
• Boland, Gerald.
• Boland, Patrick.
• Bourke, Daniel.
• Brady, Seán.
• Briscoe, Robert.
• Broderick, Henry.
• Carney, Frank.
• Carty, Frank.
• Cassidy, Archie J.
• Clancy, Patrick.
• Colbert, James.
• Corkery, Dan.
• Corry, Martin John.
• Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
• Davin, William.
• Derrig, Thomas.
• De Valera, Eamon.
• Everett, James.
• Flinn, Hugo.
• Fogarty, Andrew.
• Geoghegan, James.
• Gorry, Patrick J.
• Goulding, John.
• Hayes, Seán.
• Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
• Houlihan, Patrick.
• Jordan, Stephen.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Kilroy, Michael.
• Lemass, Seán F.
• Little, Patrick John.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• MacEntee, Seán.
• Moore, Séamus.
• Mullins, Thomas.
• Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
• O'Connell, Thomas J.
• O'Kelly, Seán T.
• O'Reilly, Matthew.
• Ryan, James.
• Sheehy, Timothy (Tipp.).
• Smith, Patrick.
• Tubridy, John.
• Walsh, Richard.
• Ward, Francis C.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Duggan and P. Doyle; Níl, Deputies G. Boland and Davin.

Resolution declared carried.

Mr. Blythe

I move that the Dáil agree with the Committee in the following Resolution:—

4.—(1) That in lieu of the duties of customs chargeable under Section 15 of the Finance Act, 1924 (No. 27 of 1924), as amended by Section 25 of the Finance Act, 1925 (No. 28 of 1925), Section 15 of the Finance Act, 1926 (No. 35 of 1926), and Section 20 of the Finance Act, 1928 (No. 11 of 1928), there shall be charged, levied and paid on all sugar confectionery imported into Saorstát Eireann on or after the 7th day of May, 1931, a customs duty at the rate of four and four-fifths pence on the pound, in addition to any duty which may be chargeable in respect of any spirits or saccharin contained in such sugar confectionery but in lieu of any duty which might otherwise be chargeable on any other ingredient contained in such sugar confectionery.

(2) That in the case of fruit (not liable to duty as fruit) in syrup, containing not more than thirty-three and one-third per cent. of sweetening matter and imported in sealed tins or cans, the duty mentioned in this Resolution shall be charged and levied at the reduced rate of twopence on the pound in lieu of the full rate of four and four-fifths pence.

(3) That in this Resolution the expression "sugar confectionery" means confectionery made from or containing sugar or other sweetening matter and not containing cocoa, and includes breads, biscuits, cakes, cake mixtures, puddings and powders (other than medicinal powders) sweetened with sugar or other sweetening matter, and not containing cocoa, and also sweetmeats, jams, marmalades, and jellies not containing cocoa, and also peels and fruits candied, crystallised or otherwise preserved with sugar or any other sweetening matter, and not containing cocoa but does not include ginger preserved in syrup imported into Saorstát Eireann in wooden barrels or casks of a capacity of not less than one hundredweight.

(4) That the provisions of Section 8 of the Finance Act, 1919, shall apply to the duty mentioned in this Resolution with the substitution of the expression "Saorstát Eireann" for the expression "Great Britain and Ireland," and as though sugar confectionery as defined in this Resolution were included in the Second Schedule to that Act in the list of goods to which five-sixths of the full rate is made applicable as a preferential rate.

(5) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927 (No. 7 of 1927).

In the debate on the previous Bill there was a certain amount of discussion about the tax as applicable to tinned fruits. I am prepared to alter the provisions in the Bill so that the tax on tinned fruit will remain as it was before the introduction of this Resolution.

Mr. T.J. O'Connell

In the circumstances I do not know what would be done with my amendment to the Resolution which reads:—

To delete paragraph (2) and insert a new paragraph as follows:—

"That in the case of fruit (not liable to duty as fruit) in syrup and imported in sealed tins or cans the duty mentioned in this Resolution shall be charged and levied at the following reduced rates in lieu of the full rate of four and four-fifths pence per pound, viz.:—

Fruit syrup containing not more than ten per cent. of sweetening matter—Tenpence per cwt.

Fruit syrup containing more than ten per cent. but not more than fifteen per cent. of sweetening matter —One shilling and eightpence per cwt.

Fruit syrup containing more than fifteen per cent. but not more than twenty per cent. of sweetening matter—Two shillings and sixpence per cwt.

Fruit syrup containing more than twenty per cent.—Twopence per pound.

I felt there was a strong case, as the Minister has admitted, in regard to tinned fruits. Even leaving the duty as it was, it is I think rather unfair owing to the circumstances, because if this duty is to be put on at all, it is put on because of the sugar content. I assume that is the reason. If the fruit came in without being in the tin, there would be no tax on it. Therefore, the tax was put on because of the sugar content in the syrup. If that is so I think that the tax should be according to the sugar content and the tax would be very much smaller indeed, even than what it was, leaving it on the existing basis before this new tax was put on. The Minister made this change to a flat rate. Up to 1924, as the Minister knows, the tax was according to the sugar content but in 1924 the change was made. The plea was that at that time, by making a flat rate the necessity for opening tins and examining them, to find out what the sugar content of each particular class of tin was, would be obviated.

I am informed by those connected with the trade that there has been no change whatever in the practice in regard to the opening and examination of tins. One important firm engaged in the business state that "going over our records we find that the Customs have been opening the same percentage of tins since the 1924 Budget as previous to that year." That statement is made by a responsible company who are engaged in the importation of tinned fruit in a very large way. If that is the position, nothing has been gained from the administrative point of view, or from the point of view of saving administrative costs, and a very heavy tax has been put on this article of food.

This is an article of food which has become very common of late years. It is a cheap and wholesome form of diet, especially to the working class family. We know that home grown fruit is not very cheap, and is not always procurable, except at certain seasons. I have figures to show the change since 1924. There is one point the Minister should look into. Tinned fruits are graded into four groups, according to the sugar content of the mixture in which they are bottled or contained. It is that which contains the lowest percentage that is frequently used. I am informed that something like 80 per cent. of the tinned fruit used is in this class known as seconds, which contains not more than 5 per cent. of sugar. Before 1924 the tax on that particular grade of tinned fruits was 1/3 per cwt. and under the 1924 flat rate it was up to 11/2. That was a very considerable increase. In the highest grade called "fancy," which contains not more than 20 per cent. of sugar the tax was 5/-; that also was put up to the flat rate of 11/2. A very small quantity of that fancy class or grade is used in the Free State. It might be regarded as a luxury article as compared with the lower grade. Before 1924, the tax on the fancy grade was 5/1 and on the lower grade 1/3. In 1924 the tax was made a flat rate of 11/2 all round. That is the figure it will remain at under the Minister's proposal. I think that requires to be looked into. In Northern Ireland and England at the present time the tax on the lower grade of tinned fruits is only at the rate of 7d. per cwt. and that is a very great difference indeed. It is a very heavy tax, even standing at what it was before the present Budget tax.

While I appeal to the Minister to look into the matter between this and the Finance Bill, and see if an arrangement cannot be made to continue the pre-1924 scheme whereby the tax was in proportion to the sugar, I suppose it is as much as I can hope for at this stage in view of the fact that he has agreed to leave things as they were with regard to tinned fruit. I do not propose to press my amendment now, but I would ask him between this and the introduction of the Finance Bill to look into the whole matter to see whether this flat rate of tax on tinned fruits is a fair tax in the circumstances. We have it that there were one and a half millions or one and a quarter million tins imported last year. This is not a protective tax because we have not any canning industry in the country so far as I know. Therefore the tax has not the effect of a protective tariff. I think the increase in 1924 was altogether too steep so far as the lower grades are concerned, and I think if there is any case for a tax the tax should be in proportion to the sugar content of the syrup. As it is at present it is according the weight of the fruit. I do not think that is fair in all the circumstances. If the fruit were not in the syrup it would be brought in without any tax. Not only is the sugar taxed, but also the fruit is taxed, and I ask the Minister to look into the whole matter to see if the adjustment can be made in the rates.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. MacEntee

I would like to make it clear, speaking on my own behalf, that we cannot view this in the same simple way Deputy O'Connell views it. He says this is not a protective tariff. It is, to a certain extent. After all we have to remember that these are foreign fruits which are being imported. We have native fruit growers in this country and we have got to consider their interests. A tariff on foreign fruit is just as justifiable as a tax on foreign boots, clothes or chocolate, and while a case is made for some discrimination as between the grades of canned fruit, I am not sure that a case is being made on behalf of the poor consumer rather than on behalf of the exceedingly rich and opulent companies engaged in this industry in the first place, and of those who are acting as importers and distributors. I do not know whether Armour and Company; Libby, McNeill and Libby, Angus Watson, or any other big concern who have issued circulars and a statement, the figures of which seem to agree with those Deputy O'Connell has put before the House, are entitled to very much consideration in this matter. After all, if the tax were to be retained at the old rate would the remission be passed on to the consumer? That is an aspect of the matter on which I have, at any rate, grave doubts. This is very largely a monopoly business, and where a monopoly of that kind exists you may be certain that if any remission is made the whole of that remission will not go to the consumer.

I think that to a certain extent we are not unsympathetic with the attitude which the Minister has indicated he is prepared to take up. We feel that if it is difficult to obtain home-grown fruit, which difficulty has been very largely created by the people whose names are appended to this circular. Some of them are engaged, I believe, in the distribution of fresh fruits. They, and those who are associated with the distribution of those fruits, have very largely crushed out the native grower. First of all, they do not give him a price that remunerates him, and what they buy they are not disposed to sell at prices to suit the people of the city. In that way they have very largely killed fruit growing in this country. We on these benches are very doubtful of the whole thing. We do not like the Minister's proposals, because we know that if we accept them the tax is going to be passed on to the consumer in exactly the same way as the tax on petrol has been passed on. At the same time, we also feel that if we do urge a remission of the tax, we are going to put the native fruit grower at a further disadvantage as against these people. I personally feel that the Minister's suggestion to leave the tax at the old rate is one more or less acceptable to us, and we are going to leave it at that.

Mr. Blythe

I think Deputy MacEntee has put the matter very fairly. It is hardly correct to say that this has no protective aspect. Apart altogether from the question of fresh fruit, there is a certain fruit bottling industry here, and while the fruit bottling industry is not concerned with exactly the same fruit as those that come in in tins, nevertheless there is no doubt that the development of the industry which would help native fruit growers is prevented by the large importation of tinned fruit, so that the matter has, in fact, a certain protective aspect. There is one other point. I am afraid that the firm which stated that there has been no change in practice since 1924 in the matter of opening and sampling either had not normal experience or was not disclosing the full facts, because there has been a very considerable change. Occasional tins are opened now to check the returns and to ascertain that they belong to the particular category, but the opening is very much less than before 1924. I will look over the whole matter again. Generally, I think we should not do more than to leave the rate as it stood, and I think if Deputy O'Connell will examine it further, he will discover that the protective aspect is worthy of some consideration.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Blythe

I move:

"That the Dáil agree with the Committee in Resolution No. 5."

(1) That in lieu of the duties of customs chargeable under Section 22 of the Finance Act, 1928 (No. 11 of 1928), there shall be charged, levied, and paid on all articles (other than sugar confectionery, cocoa preparations, beer, table waters, herb beer, cider, perry, wine, tobacco, spirits and any article on which a duty is imposed by Section 21 of the Finance Act, 1928) imported into Saorstát Eireann on or after the 7th day of May, 1931, and made from or containing sugar or other sweetening matter, the following duties of customs, that is to say:—

(a) if the articles are prescribed in the official import lists to be entered on importation by weight, a duty at the rate of one penny and three farthings in the pound;

(b) if the articles are prescribed in the official import lists to be entered on importation by measure, a duty at the rate of one shilling and fivepence on the gallon

(2) That the duty mentioned in this Resolution shall be in addition to any duty chargeable in respect of any spirits or saccharin used in the manufacture or preparation of the article but in lieu of any duty which might otherwise be chargeable on any other ingredient used in the manufacture or preparation of the article.

(3) That the provisions of Section 8 of the Finance Act, 1919, shall not apply to the duty mentioned in this Resolution.

(4) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927 (No. 7 of 1927).

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Blythe

I move:—"That the Dáil agree with the Committee in Resolution No. 6."

(1) That the new import duties which were first imposed by Section 12 of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, and were (with the exception of the duty on records and other means of reproducing music, the duty on blank film on which no picture has been impressed, and the duty on motor cars (including motor bicycles and motor tricycles) and accessories and component parts thereof other than tyres) continued up to the 1st day of May, 1931, by Section 7 of the Finance Act, 1930 (No. 20 of 1930), shall, with the exceptions aforesaid and the further exception of cinematograph films imported on or after the 7th day of May, 1931, and designed or intended for the exhibition of pictures or other optical effects by means of a cinematograph or other similar apparatus in conjunction with the mechanical production or reproduction of vocal or other sounds by the same or another apparatus, continue to be charged, levied, and paid on and from the said 1st day of May, 1931, up to the 1st day of May, 1932.

(2) That there shall be charged, levied, and paid on all cinematograph films which are imported into Saorstát Eireann on or after the 7th day of May, 1931, and before the 1st day of May, 1932, and are designed or intended for the exhibition of pictures or other optical effects by means of a cinematograph or other similar apparatus in conjunction with the mechanical production or reproduction of vocal or other sounds by the same or another apparatus a customs duty at the following rates, that is to say:—

	Per linear foot of the width of 1? inches.
	£	s.	d.
Positive films, that is to say films ready for use	—	—	3
Negative films, that is to say films from which positive films can be printed	—	1	3

(3) That whenever the Revenue Commissioners are satisfied that any cinematograph film imported into Saorstát Eireann is of an educational character they shall, subject to compliance with such conditions as they think fit to impose, exempt such film from payment (as the case require) of the duty on cinematograph films included in and not excepted from the new import duties mentioned in the first paragraph of this Resolution or of the duty mentioned in the second paragraph of this Resolution.

(4) That the provisions of Section 8 of the Finance Act, 1919, shall apply to all the duties mentioned in this Resolution with the substitution of the expression "Saorstát Eireann" for the expression "Great Britain and Ireland".

(5) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927 (No. 7 of 1927).

Since the introduction of the Resolution a certain number of representations have been made to me, and I would like to say to the Dáil that I feel so far as news films are concerned that a case seems to have been made at any rate for not charging the full new rate of 3d. I think as far as news films are concerned they have a very short life, and that there is a case for allowing them to come in at the old rate.

Mr. MacEntee

I feel in a difficulty too about this matter because I know that a certain case can be made for remitting the duty as far as news films are concerned, on the ground that they have a comparatively brief life. But there is another aspect that I think should be taken into consideration, and that is the aspect of the orchestras and others formerly engaged in picture theatres. If news films were not in the programme these would have to be made up in some other way, and they might possibly be made up by retaining the services of the orchestras for a short period, as was the custom in one picture theatre in the city. That is the difficulty I find myself in. I sympathise with the Minister in the difficulty he finds himself in, because it does seem rather inequitable to charge news films, which have a comparatively short life, this duty. At the same time there is in addition to the point of view of the orchestras, the points of view of some of the audiences at picture theatres. They occasionally find these news films very objectionable from some points of view, and there is a feeling amongst a considerable section that instead of the duty being 3d. a foot on certain pictures there would be no harm in putting a duty of 1s. per foot on them, in order to stop the exhibition of films that a very large section of the audience find objectionable even though they do not make themselves so ill-mannered as to voice those objections. It is the other aspect of the matter that I would like the Minister to take into consideration. I would particularly like him to consider carefully whether the elimination of the news films would not lead to the re-introduction of orchestras in picture theatres. That is the important fact that should be taken into consideration in the whole of these Resolutions.

Mr. Blythe

If it would have that effect I think I would be very much influenced by it.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Blythe

I move:

"That the Dáil agree with the Committee in Resolution No. 7."

(1) That the additional duties on dried fruits which were first imposed by Section 8 of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, and were continued up to the 1st day of August, 1931, by Section 8 of the Finance Act, 1930 (No. 20 of 1930), shall continue to be charged, levied, and paid on and from the said 1st day of August, 1931, up to the 1st day of August, 1932.

(2) That the provisions of Section 8 of the Finance Act, 1919, shall apply to the duties mentioned in this Resolution with the substitution of the expression "Saorstát Eireann" for the expression "Great Britain and Ireland."

(3) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927 (No. 7 of 1927).

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Blythe

I move:

"That the Dáil agree with the Committee in Resolution 8."

(1) That there shall be charged, levied, and paid for and upon every licence issued under Section 5 of the Sea Fisheries Act, 1931 (No. 4 of 1931), an excise duty of five pounds.

(2) That the duty mentioned in this Resolution in respect of any such licence as aforesaid shall be charged, levied, and paid at the time of the taking out of such licence and shall be paid and collected by means of stamps denoting the amount of such duty impressed on such licences, and the Stamp Duties Management Act, 1891, shall apply to such duty and stamps.

(3) That a licence which is liable to the duty mentioned in this Resolution shall not be issued unless and until such licence has been duly stamped under this Resolution in respect of such duty.

(4) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927 (No. 7 of 1927).

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Blythe

I move:

"That the Dáil agree with the Committee in Resolution No. 9."

(1) That there shall be charged, levied, and paid for and upon every licence to act and carry on business as a bookmaker issued under any Act passed or to be passed during the financial year beginning on the 1st day of April, 1931, an excise duty at the following rates, that is to say:—

(a) where the date on which such licence commences is a date after the 6th day of May, 1931, and before the 1st day of June, 1931, seven pounds and ten shillings;

(b) where the date on which such licence commences is a date on or after the 1st day of June, 1931, and before the 1st day of September, 1931, five pounds;

(c) where the date on which such licence commences is a date on or after the 1st day of September, 1931, and before the 30th day of November, 1931, two pounds and ten shillings;

(d) where the date on which such licence commences is a date on or after the 30th day of November, 1931, ten pounds.

(2) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927 (No. 7 of 1927).

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Blythe

I move:

"That the Dáil agree with the Committee in Resolution No. 10."

(1) That where at any time before the death of a person dying on or after the date of the passing of the Act giving statutory effect to this Resolution any property in which the deceased had an estate or interest limited to cease at his death was transferred, whether before or after the passing of the said Act and whether directly or indirectly and whether by one or more transactions, by the deceased and the person interested in the remainder or reversion to or for the benefit of a company to which this Resolution applies, then unless—

(a) the transfer was made before the 1st day of August, 1918; or

(b) such property was settled property and the interest of the deceased would in any case have failed by reason of his death before it would have become an interest in possession; or

(c) the consideration payable to the deceased in respect of the transfer was wholly satisfied otherwise than by an allotment of shares in such company or the grant to the deceased by such company of an annuity terminable on or by reference to the death of the deceased or any other series of periodical payments similarly terminable; or

(d) the deceased—

(i) had at least three years before his death relinquished all interest in such property, and

(ii) had not at any time within the said three years the possession or enjoyment (otherwise than under a lease or an agreement for a lease at a rack rent) of any part of such property or of any benefit secured to him, whether by contract or otherwise, in relation to such relinquishment, and

(iii) was not at any time within the said three years in receipt of or entitled to any payment from the company, other than a payment in respect of or on account of debentures or loans or the payment of a capital sum of purchase money of fixed amount (including purchase money payable by periodical instalments for a definite period but excluding purchase money payable by way of annuity or other periodical payments terminable on or by reference to the death of the deceased);

such property shall, subject to the provisions of this Resolution, be deemed for the purposes of estate duty to pass on the death in like manner as if the estate or interest of the deceased therein had continued until the death.

(2) That where property which but for this paragraph would be deemed by virtue of the foregoing paragraph to pass on the death or any part of such property has during the lifetime of the deceased been bona fide sold or exchanged for full consideration in money or moneys worth by the company to which it had been transferred within the meaning of the foregoing paragraph, such property or so much thereof as has been so sold or exchanged shall not be deemed to pass on the death of the deceased, but in lieu thereof, the property which, at the date of the death of the deceased, is or represents in the hands of the company the proceeds of such sale or exchange shall be deemed for the purpose of estate duty to pass on the death in like manner as if the deceased had an estate or interest therein limited to cease on his death and as if such estate or interest had continued until his death.

(3) That in determining the value of any property deemed to pass on the death under this Resolution, there shall be deducted from the principal value thereof—

(a) so much of such sum (if any) as has been borrowed by the company and has been applied by the company in the improvement of the property and has not at the death been repaid by the company;

(b) a sum equal to the capital sum of money (if any) paid by the company to the deceased as part of the consideration for the transfer of his interest in the property;

(c) where estate duty is payable in connection with the death on any shares of or debentures in the company, a sum equal to the principal value at the date of the death of such of those shares or debentures as were allotted or transferred to the deceased in consideration of the transfer of the property.

(4) That the company concerned shall be accountable for any duty mentioned in this Resolution and shall, for the purpose of raising and paying that duty, have all the powers conferred on accountable persons by the Finance Act, 1894, and if the duty or any part thereof is paid by the executor (within the meaning of that Act) of the deceased it shall be repaid to him by the company.

(5) That where on the death of any person a claim for duty arises by virtue of this Resolution, the company accountable for such duty shall, within three months after such company becomes aware of such death, notify the Revenue Commissioners of the death of such person, and any such company wilfully failing to give such notification shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding five hundred pounds.

(6) That the Revenue Commissioners may, for the purposes of carrying this Resolution into effect, require any company to which this Resolution applies to furnish to them within two months after being so required to do copies of such of the balance sheets and profit and loss or income and expenditure accounts, and such other particulars as they may reasonably require, and if any such company fails to comply with such requisition—

(a) such company shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding five hundred pounds, and every director, manager, secretary or other officer of such company who knowingly or wilfully authorises or permits the failure shall be liable to a like penalty; and

(b) an order may be made against all or any of the directors of such company requiring them to comply with such requisition in like manner as an order may be made against any person who is accountable for succession duty to deliver an account and the provisions of Section 47 of the Succession Duty Act, 1853, shall apply accordingly subject to the necessary modifications.

(7) That in this Resolution—

the expression "company to which this Resolution applies" means any body corporate, wheresoever incorporated, which either—

(a) is so constituted as not to be controlled by its shareholders or by any class thereof, or

(b) has not issued to the public, or, in the case of a company which is about to make an issue of shares to the public, will not when it has made that issue, have issued to the public, more than half of the shares by the holders whereof it is controlled;

the word "share" includes any interest whatsoever in a company, by whatsoever name it is called, analogous to a share, and

the word "shareholders" shall be construed accordingly.

Mr. Good

Do I understand that the Minister in his Budget statement said that this proposal would only apply to companies and not to individuals?

Mr. Blythe

Only to companies. It is only where a company is formed both for the purpose of acquiring the interest of the present life holder and the interest of his successor so that the interest might not pass on the death of the first and that no duty would be paid.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Blythe

I move:—

"That the Dáil agree with the Committee in Resolution No. 11."

(1) That, subject to the provisions of this Resolution, the scale set out in the Schedule to this Resolution shall, in the case of persons dying on or after the date of the passing of the Act giving statutory effect to this Resolution, be substituted for the scale set out in the Fourth Schedule to the Finance Act, 1926 (No. 35 of 1926), as the scale of rates of estate duty.

(2) That where an interest in expectancy within the meaning of Part I of the Finance Act, 1894, in any property (other than property deemed to pass on a death by virtue of a Financial Resolution of even date with this Resolution) has before the 6th day of May, 1931, been bona fide sold or mortgaged for full consideration in money or money's worth, then no other duty on that property shall be payable by the purchaser or mortgagee when the interest falls into possession than would have been payable if this Resolution had not been passed, and in the case of a mortgage any higher duty payable by the mortgagor shall rank as a charge subsequent to that of the mortgagee.

SCALE OF RATES OF ESTATE DUTY.

Principal Value of the Estate	Rate per cent. of Duty
££
Exceeding100 and not exceeding500	1
,,500,, ,,,, 1,000	2
,, 1,000,, ,,,, 5,000	3
,, 5,000,, ,,,, 10,000	4
,, 10,000,, ,,,, 12,500	5
,, 12,500,, ,,,, 15,000	6
,, 15,000,, ,,,, 18,000	7
,, 18,000,, ,,,, 21,000	8
,, 21,000,, ,,,, 25,000	9
,, 25,000,, ,,,, 30,000	10
,, 30,000,, ,,,, 35,000	11
,, 35,000,, ,,,, 40,000	12
,, 40,000,, ,,,, 45,000	13
,, 45,000,, ,,,, 50,000	14
,, 50,000,, ,,,, 55,000	15
,, 55,000,, ,,,, 65,000	16
,, 65,000,, ,,,, 75,000	17
,, 75,000,, ,,,, 85,000	18
,, 85,000,, ,,,, 100,000	19
,, 100,000,, ,,,, 120,000	20
,, 120,000,, ,,,, 150,000	22
,, 150,000,, ,,,, 200,000	24
,, 200,000,, ,,,, 250,000	26
,, 250,000,, ,,,, 300,000	28
,, 300,000,, ,,,, 400,000	30
,, 400,000	32

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Blythe

I move:—

"That the Dáil agree with the Committee in Resolution No. 12."

(1) That where there pass on the death of a person dying on or after the date of the passing of the Act giving statutory effect to this Resolution any objects to which this Resolution applies, the value of those objects shall not be taken into account for the purpose of estimating the principal value of the estate passing on the death or the rate at which estate duty is chargeable thereon, and those objects shall, while enjoyed in kind, be exempt from death duties.

(2) That in the event of the sale of any objects to which this Resolution applies, death duties shall, subject to the provisions of this Resolution, become chargeable on the proceeds of sale in respect of the last death on which the objects passed and, as respects estate duty, at the rate appropriate to the principal value of the estate passing on that death upon which estate duty is leviable, and with which the objects would have been aggregated if they had not been objects to which this Resolution applies, and the person by whom or for whose benefit the objects were sold shall be accountable for the duties and shall deliver an account for the purposes thereof within one month after the sale, and interest on the said duties shall be payable from the date of the sale.

(3) That in the event of a sale of any objects to which this Resolution applies, death duties shall not become chargeable if the sale is to the National Gallery of Ireland, the National Museum of Science and Art, or any other similar national institution, any university, county council or municipal corporation in Saorstát Eireann, or the Friends of the National Collections of Ireland.

(4) That this Resolution applies to the following objects, that is to say, such pictures, prints, books, manuscripts, works of art, scientific collections or other things not yielding income as on a claim being made to the Minister for Finance under this Resolution, appear to him to be of national, scientific, historic or artistic interest.

(5) That nothing in this Resolution shall affect the powers conferred on the Minister for Finance by sub-section (2) of Section 15 of the Finance Act, 1894.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Blythe

I move: "That the Dáil agree with the Committee in Resolution No. 13."

That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.

Mr. MacEntee

On the general resolution——

An Ceann Comhairle

What could the Deputy say now that could not be said on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill?

Mr. MacEntee

To repair some omissions.

An Ceann Comhairle

The general resolution is really an expedient for allowing a Budget debate.

Mr. MacEntee

Very well, I will reserve what I have to say.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill to be introduced to-morrow.

Mr. MacEntee

When does the Minister expect to have it circulated?

Mr. Blythe

I do not think we will be able to do so for a week.

The Dáil went out of Committee.