Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 May 1931

Vol. 38 No. 16

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 37—Circuit Court.

The President

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £34,062 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1932, chun Tuarastail agus Liúntaisí agus Costaisí Oifigeacha Cúirte Cuarda, Leas - Bhreithiún gCuarda agus Udarásanna Clárathachta Aitiúla áirithe; agus chun costaisí Ath-fhéachainte Liostaí Vótálaithe agus Coisteoirí (54 agus 55 Vict., c. 66, alt 7; Uimh. 27 de 1926, alt 66; Uimh. 15 de 1928, alt 9; agus Uimh. 37 de 1929).

That a sum not exceeding £34,062 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932, for the Salaries, Allowances and Expenses of Circuit Court Officers, Deputy Circuit Judges, and certain Local Registering Authorities; and the expenses of Revision of Voters and Jurors Lists (54 and 55 Vict., c. 66, sec. 7; No. 27 of 1926, sec. 66; No. 15 of 1928, sec. 9: and No. 37 of 1929).

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

This Vote is practically the same as it has been for some years past. The only point which I anticipate may interest the House is that this year we are making provision for deputy Circuit Court Judges to the extent of £2,350, being sufficient to pay one deputy judge all the year round and another deputy judge for about six months. This will probably prove to be an over-estimate as I think we will not require a deputy judge for the half year. It is really owing to the partial illness of one of the judges that it is necessary to have an assistant.

Mr. Anthony

I want to ask the Minister is a Circuit Court Judge invested with any greater powers than the old Judges of Assize had. I want to know can a Circuit Court Judge suspend Habeas Corpus and can he, without recourse to the ordinary usages of the law, fine or imprison any subject of this State. I ask the question in all seriousness because an almost Gilbertian situation has arisen in a certain district. I want to have the question answered and then I shall enlighten the Minister as to what I can only describe as a Gilbertian occurrence in the Free State.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

The answer to all parts of the question is in the negative.

Mr. Anthony

Perhaps the Minister is not aware that within the last few weeks a Circuit Court Judge who, because he felt slightly incommoded or inconvenienced by noise arising from a bakery adjacent to his court, ordered the proprietress of this bakery to be brought before him, and without any trial of any kind, told the proprietress that he would fine her £2 and that she should be very glad to be let off with such a light penalty and if he had her before him again he would give her a couple of months in jail. That is an extraordinary situation with which I hope the Minister will deal. It is absolutely true.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I am not responsible for judges' decisions and I am not going to discuss in this House any decision which any judge has given.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I did not understand the Deputy's point. I did not think the Deputy was raising a question as to a judgment.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Yes.

Mr. Anthony

I suppose I am entitled, at least, to repeat the answer given by the Minister, which stated very definitely that a Circuit Court Judge is not entitled to deal with things with which I say this judge has dealt.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I will not discuss that.

Mr. Anthony

I am putting a question. I am not discussing it either.

Mr. H. Broderick

I should like to put the matter before the House and the Minister. I happen to be very well acquainted with the facts of this case.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I do not think it ought to be discussed any further.

Mr. Broderick

This matter will come up again in two months' time.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I do not think it can be settled here. It certainly cannot be settled on this Estimate.

Mr. Anthony

I am sure the Minister has some control.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

If a bad decision is given by a judge there is always an appeal.

Mr. Broderick

This case did not come before a Judge. I think I am entitled to explain the matter to the House. This is a bakery establishment where machinery is working. The Circuit Court Judge says: "This is annoyance to my court, and the litigants and the legal men cannot hear; we cannot carry on the business." The owner of the establishment and the manager were brought before the Judge and he fined them £2. He has remitted that since. The same thing will happen when the Judge comes there again. What is the remedy?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Appeal if it is a bad decision.

The President

Get him to remit it again.

Mr. Broderick

Is the bakery to cease work while the court is being held every two months?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Surely the Deputy realises that a decision on the matter cannot be come to here? The Minister cannot deal with it, and that is all about it.

Mr. Broderick

Where are we to raise it? Has the Minister any power over the Judge?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not for me to say.

Mr. Anthony

Can we get any assurance from the Minister that some intimation will be given to the Judge that he is not the whole Oireachtas and the whole judiciary? I should like to get some assurance from the Minister.

Mr. Broderick

His predecessors did not adopt the attitude he has adopted. There is a District Court held there every second Thursday.

Mr. Flinn

I understand these Deputies are not discussing anything in regard to the judicial functions of a Judge. They are dealing with something extra-judicial on the part of an individual who happens to be a Judge. There was no suggestion that there was any legal form of any kind whatever, but that this was simply the act of an individual who happened to be a Judge.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Sitting on a bench and acting judicially.

Mr. Flinn

You are sitting on the front bench and acting like a Minister. It is a very good comparison.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

There is nothing better I could do, and I hope, if ever the Deputy sits on a front bench, he will act like a Minister.

Mr. Anthony

I do not want to vote against this Estimate, but surely this is rather a serious thing.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Perhaps the Deputy will allow me. I have given him a good deal of liberty upon this particular matter.

Mr. Anthony

I am asking the liberty of a citizen of the Free State. I am not asking for special liberty as a Deputy.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order! The Deputy will perhaps sit down. The Minister has stated that he is not responsible upon this matter and, therefore, the Deputy cannot raise it on this Vote.

Mr. Anthony

Has the Minister any authority on this matter?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

No.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister has said he has not.

Mr. Anthony

How are we to make our protest then?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not for me.

Mr. Anthony

The only alternative we have is to make a protest and I want to ask the Minister has he no control at all.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I shall put the question.

Mr. Anthony

Surely any Judge in this country——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I cannot allow any further discussion. I shall put the question.

Mr. Anthony

I shall call for a division. The liberty of the subject is at stake.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Anthony must sit down.

Mr. Anthony

Certainly. I have my right the same as you have, sir.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must be guided by the Chair.

Mr. Anthony

So I shall.

Question put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 64; Níl, 40.

Tá.

• Aird, William P.
• Alton, Ernest Henry.
• Beckett, James Walter.
• Bennett, George Cecil.
• Blythe, Ernest.
• Bourke, Séamus A.
• Brennan, Michael.
• Brodrick, Seán.
• Carey, Edmund.
• Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
• Conlon, Martin.
• Connolly, Michael P.
• Cosgrave, William T.
• Craig, Sir James.
• Daly, John.
• Davis, Michael.
• De Loughrey, Peter.
• Doherty, Eugene.
• Dolan, James N.
• Doyle, Peadar Seán.
• Duggan, Edmund John.
• Dwyer, James.
• Egan, Barry M.
• Esmonde, Osmond Thos. Grattan.
• Fitzgerald, Desmond.
• Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
• Good, John.
• Gorey, Denis J.
• Hassett, John J.
• Heffernan, Michael R.
• Hennessy, Thomas.
• Henry, Mark.
• Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
• Holohan, Richard.
• Jordan, Michael.
• Kelly, Patrick Michael.
• Keogh, Myles.
• Law, Hugh Alexander.
• Leonard, Patrick.
• Lynch, Finian.
• Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
• McFadden, Michael Og.
• Mongan, Joseph W.
• Mulcahy, Richard.
• Murphy, James E.
• Myles, James Sproule.
• O'Connell, Richard.
• O'Connor, Bartholomew.
• O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
• O'Hanlon, John F.
• O'Leary, Daniel.
• O'Mahony, The.
• O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
• O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
• Reynolds, Patrick.
• Rice, Vincent.
• Roddy, Martin.
• Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
• Thrift, William Edward.
• Tierney, Michael.
• White, John.
• White, Vincent Joseph.
• Wolfe, George.
• Wolfe, Jasper Travers.

Níl.

• Aiken, Frank.
• Allen, Denis.
• Anthony, Richard.
• Blaney, Neal.
• Boland, Gerald.
• Boland, Patrick.
• Bourke, Daniel.
• Brady, Seán.
• Briscoe, Robert.
• Broderick, Henry.
• Carty, Frank.
• Cassidy, Archie J.
• Corkery, Dan.
• Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
• Crowley, Tadhg.
• Davin, William.
• Derrig, Thomas.
• De Valera, Eamon.
• Fahy, Frank.
• Flinn, Hugo.
• Gorry, Patrick J.
• Goulding, John.
• Hayes, Seán.
• Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
• Houlihan, Patrick.
• Jordan, Stephen.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Kilroy, Michael.
• Lemass, Seán F.
• Little, Patrick John.
• Maguire, Ben.
• MacEntee, Seán.
• Moore, Séamus.
• O'Kelly, Seán T.
• O'Reilly, Matthew.
• O'Reilly, Thomas.
• Ryan, James.
• Sexton, Martin.
• Sheehy, Timothy (Tipp.).
• Walsh, Richard.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Duggan and P.S. Doyle; Níl, Deputies Anthony and Broderick.

Question declared carried.