Vol. 39 No. 3
I move:—
Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £77,885 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1932, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí an Oireachtais.
That a sum not exceeding £77,885 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Oireachtas.
I want to raise a question with regard to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. There has been no meeting of that Committee for the last two years, and we have suggested that one should be held. There are several matters of importance affecting members which we think should be considered by the Committee.
I do not know whether that question will arise under this Estimate. This is an Estimate for the salaries and expenses of Senators, Teachtaí and so on.
It is an Estimate to provide funds for the running of this House, and we believe that owing to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges not meeting the House is not giving a proper return for the money.
I do not think that this is the place in which to raise it at all.
Surely it is under this Vote that moneys are provided.
It does not affect the expenses.
It does, and I think the House should be run with greater satisfaction and in a more economic way if the Committee on Procedure and Privileges would meet and discuss matters that have cropped up for discussion.
I am afraid that the Government could not answer for that. I think it should be raised in some other way in the House.
This is not the place to raise it.
The Ceann Comhairle's salary comes up under this Vote. We have suggested to the Ceann Comhairle that he should arrange for meetings of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, and that has not been done for the last two years.
That is for the House to act on. I rule definitely that you cannot bring this matter up on this Estimate. There may be some other way of doing it easily, but not on this Estimate.
I move: "That the Estimate be reduced by £175 in respect of Item J." As a result of the ruling of the Ceann Comhairle on another matter a few moments ago I do not know exactly what the limits are in regard to a discussion like that. There is very little to be said on it, and I do not propose to go into it in detail except to say that in my opinion it is money absolutely thrown away. This whole item for the British Empire Parliamentary Association is money absolutely thrown into the dust heap. Nobody reads the publications in the first place and in the second place a copy in the Library would be sufficient.
Even though that money is not of considerable moment it is a symbol of the waste that goes on in other Departments in this administration. I submit that it is but another symbol of this obnoxious connection and suggest that the House should eliminate it from the Vote or reduce it by a sum which would not enable the Association concerned to supply the journals which are sent here for burning.
I would like to support the argument of Deputy Mullins in this matter. It seems to me to vote £250 to supply journals to Deputies is sheer waste. Any one who takes the trouble will see these parcels which come to us lying unopened in the House, in the Committee Rooms and on the tables. No doubt some Deputies may read them and if an arrangement could be made whereby the Deputies who want to read them could notify the Ceann Comhairle it would be more economical. The whole procedure cannot be described in any other terms than as sheer waste.
Deputies were deprived of the bound volumes of the Official Report on the lines of economy. I think it an extraordinary procedure that these volumes which were of great use to the Deputies should be taken from them on the grounds of economy and that £250 should be voted for this item. The greater portion of this money is devoted to the removing of this stuff from the Oireachtas. No one reads it. Half of it is left in the office from which Deputies will not remove it. The remainder is taken out of the Committee Rooms and thrown into the shelves. I think it is a scandalous procedure that £250 should be paid for it. It is a waste of public money. I have seen it been brought out of the Committee Rooms, even out of the Cumann na nGaedheal rooms. I have seen piles of it lying in the Deputies' lockers and they will not remove it. I certainly support Deputy Mullins in the removal of this item in the Estimate.
Is the Minister aware of the methods that have been adopted for the circularising of this publication? It is posted to each Deputy separately and on each wrapper there is a postage stamp of 9d. I presume we have to pay that 9d. If the Minister is not going to consider Deputy Mullins' suggestion would he be prepared to arrange that it would be sent in another manner than by post, to each person? It is agreed that very few people bother opening the book.
First of all Deputy Mullins did not explain exactly why he is reducing it only by £175. His arguments and those of Deputy Corry seem to be addressed to the whole £250. I would be interested to know what the balance between the £175 and £250 is for.
Portion of it has already been voted. That was all that was left to reduce.
I would like to say as one who does read this volume that it is an extremely useful document and perhaps if Deputy Corry did read it it would serve a useful purpose. I think it is interesting and essential for us to know what are the modern developments in industry and in agriculture that are taking place in countries which are our rivals in certain markets. For instance I think it is essential that we should know along what lines New Zealand is developing its butter industry.
Can you not find out by some other way?
This is one of the most convenient ways of finding it out as far as I am concerned. There may be other ways open to the Deputy. I find that journal a very interesting document. I do not know whether Deputy Mullins reads it or not.
I do.
He will find that he figures pretty often in it himself. It might be well if Deputy Mullins wants to get his views as far as New Zealand that he should have this.
I have no interest in the Empire.
I think it is the word "Empire" that has got on Deputy Mullins' nerves and on Deputy Corry's also. There is too much attention being given to that rather than to the reality of the thing. The reality is that we have countries like Canada, New Zealand and Australia engaged in certain work very much like that upon which we are engaged. It is interesting to me to know how other countries are viewing problems which are very much like our own problems.
You will not get that in the journal.
I think that from that point of view alone it serves a very useful purpose. If we are to have no association whatever with those countries let us say that openly but let us not, because of the rather unfortunate name, I admit, that is attached to this publication, throw aside the reality that we have to pay attention to these things and take an interest in them. I wish we could get a journal, not alone dealing with these countries but with all countries, giving extracts from the Parliamentary proceedings. I really do not see that there is any principle involved in this amendment. Deputy Mullins did not show that there was any principle involved in it. It is a question of the opinion and the convenience of members. If some people do not wish to read it there are others who do. It is quite possible that the arrangement suggested by Deputy Lemass might be made that only those who are prepared to read it should get it. I do not think that if Deputy Corry or Deputy Mullins throws them into the waste-paper basket they should deprive others of the privilege of reading these publications which they take an interest in.
I cannot understand Deputy O'Connell's line of argument. It seems to me that if we were to follow his argument to a logical conclusion that any Deputy who wanted a book or journal should be supplied with it at the public expense. If copies of this publication were available in the Library any Deputy who really wanted to see it could do so and it could be got at comparatively small expense, whereas now copies are being sent to Deputies who say that they do not want them. The only reason I can see why a book like that should be circulated to the Deputies at the public expense would be if there was some propaganda idea behind it. If the purpose is to force into our hands some material which those who force it into our hands would like us to read then I could understand why the House should go out of its way to put it into the hands of Deputies, in order to convert them to some particular point of view. If it is a question of getting information, that point would be met if a sufficient number of copies were secured for the Library. I find it very difficult to follow the line of reasoning that has been put forward by Deputy O'Connell. I also think it is a waste of money. £250 could be very much better spent than in purchasing these volumes. No useful purpose is served by sending around these volumes that could not be served by having copies available in the Library.
Deputy O'Connell advised Deputy Corry to read the Empire Parliamentary Report, and in the same breath said he did not know why Deputy Mullins moved to reduce the Vote only by £175 out of £250. I think if Deputy O'Connell spent less time reading the Empire Parliamentary Report and a little more time in studying the rules of this House he would find that Deputy Mullins could not move to reduce the Estimate by more than the unexpended balance of £175. I think it is ridiculous that Deputy O'Connell should force on every Deputy in the House a copy of a book that he himself wants to read. Everyone knows that the waste paper baskets go out loaded with these Empire books after they lie around in everybody's way for a couple of months. I think it is a waste of public money. I suppose a copy would only cost a shilling. That would be twelve shillings per year for Deputy O'Connell's copies. It is too much to ask that the State should pay £250 for what Deputy O'Connell can get by spending twelve shillings himself.
We consider that a far more useful purpose could be served with this money. For instance, I went into the Library the other day. I wanted for reference copies of Pearse's works. I could not find them. There is no proper set of books of national reference in the Library, whereas here we are spending money upon a paper which I read from time to time and which is thoroughly unsatisfactory, because it is so brief that you cannot follow with any intelligent understanding the mere summary and set of quotations from various countries. It is impossible to give a really satisfactory report of these various institutions in a volume of that kind. It does not give you a proper knowledge of what is going on in these institutions. If this money was devoted to establishing a proper library of national reference—and it would not require a great deal of money to do that—I think it would be far better spent than on this book.
There is an aspect of this question that Deputies who have taken part in the debate seem to have missed. This Empire Parliamentary Association is somewhat of a cooperative business. If we do not make this contribution the Free State reports will not appear in the journal. It is not merely that individual members will not get the journal, but that the Free State reports will not appear in it. I think that this money, therefore, serves two purposes, and from that point of view it is well spent. A number of Deputies undoubtedly do not read the journal. I think it would be well worth their while if they did. They would be clearer in regard to a number of matters. A fair number of Deputies do read it. There is no doubt that interest is taken by the Parliaments of the Commonwealth in the proceedings here. In view of our particular relationship, of certain difficulties that have had to be met and overcome, and certain other difficulties that are still in process of being dealt with, it is distinctly useful that our position and our proceedings here should be brought before the eyes of politicians in the different Parliaments of the Commonwealth. From that point of view alone I think that the expenditure would be worth while. We are at the present time, and were in the old days, inclined, perhaps, to over-rate the question of propaganda and the importance of having the point of view that was held here brought to the notice of people outside. But I do think in this particular matter, having regard to the constitutional position, even if no member of the Oireachtas were to read the journal, it would still be worth this particular expenditure.
[An Ceann Comhairle resumed the Chair.]
