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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 1 Jun 1932

Vol. 42 No. 2

In Committee on Finance. - Financial Resolutions (1932-33)—Report (Debate Resumed).

When the debate was adjourned at 6 o'clock I was asking whether the Opposition really apprehended the nature of this tax and the purpose for which it was used. It seemed to me, judging by the speeches which we listened to from the Opposition, that there was a great deal of mental confusion among them: that they really thought we were discussing this as a mere academic issue without any relation whatsoever to the conditions which prevail outside this House. We had Deputy Blythe stating that we were taking away the purchasing power from the individual. We had Deputy McGilligan saying that we were limiting what a man is spending on himself in the useful way he is spending it on himself, and then he adverted quite casually to the fact that among the three million people in this little State of ours there are the extremes of great wealth and abject poverty. He thought, judging by his speech, that that was merely an irrelevant consideration, that we should pass away from it. The whole purpose of the Budget is to ensure that those who are living in abject poverty, who are a liability on this State and community as a whole, who because they are living in abject poverty and below the subsistence level and because they are unemployed are fast approaching a condition of chronic unemployability that we have made up our minds to do two things: first of all, to relieve them in their misery, to revive in them the habits of industry which are going to be wealth-producing, and, secondly, to ensure that they will not be driven to that state of desperation in which the extremes of wealth—not merely the extremes of wealth in this country but all opportunity for producing wealth in this country—might well be destroyed.

We had Deputy O'Sullivan saying that income tax is calculated to cause unemployment. I should like to consider that a little further. As a matter of fact, when I was interrupted I was dealing with that particular point, and I did ask the Opposition to consider this: that if we had not increased income tax but instead had reduced the old age pensions by four shillings per week, what would be the reactions of that particular policy upon the state of employment in this country? If we reduced old age pensions by four shillings per week we would, first of all, be imposing a very much greater hardship upon a considerable section of the community. We would be imposing upon those whose total income is £26 per annum if they are enjoying pensions at the full rate, an income tax equal to almost 50 per cent. of their income, and we should be reducing their purchasing power by a very much greater proportion than any imposed upon the income tax paying class which any Government could conceivably impose. We should be going further, because we should be reducing the purchasing power of a section of the community which spends whatever income it may have mainly upon articles which are made or grown in this country. The old age pensioners' 10/- per week is spent mainly, as I have said, upon the elemental necessaries of life: upon vegetables, milk and the simple things of life, the things which I repeat and emphasise again, are made or grown in this country. If we limited or curtailed in any way the purchasing power of that section of the community unemployment would be created in a much greater measure than could possibly be done by any increase of income tax which we imposed.

Even if we did grant the contention of the Opposition that this does mean a curtailment in purchasing power of the very rich, in what way after all is a large part of that purchasing power utilised? It is used to buy motor cars and to import silks and furs. It is spent on the sumptuous livery of the well-to-do, most of which is not manufactured in this country, and in so far as the incidence of this tax upon the very wealthy classes in this country could create unemployment at all, it would create that unemployment not here in the Saorstát, but elsewhere where these things are made and in the countries from which we import them. There is, therefore, in short so far as income tax is concerned no destruction of purchasing power inside this community. There may be a transfer of purchasing power but it is, I repeat again, a transfer within the community and a transfer which will ensure that a much larger proportion of that purchasing power is utilised in the creation of employment within the Saorstát.

A transfer of employing power.

I am not going to say that such a transfer can always be made without a certain amount of economic loss and, therefore, should not be made unless there is a great social necessity for it, and there is such a necessity here. I quoted, on the last occasion, the words of a clergyman who, as I said then, moved about among the people. Every story that we have heard in this House, in the debate on Deputy Morrissey's motion, emphasises the necessity in the present circumstances for making such a transfer, in order to ensure that there will be much less abject poverty in the Irish Free State than there was under the régime of the late Government. It is not permissible to segregate this tax, and to consider it wholly apart from the general scheme of the Budget. If we did not get the £1,000,000, which we hope to derive from the increase in income tax, where were we going to get the money which we propose to spend on works of national reconstruction? Where were we going to get the funds which would enable us to carry out the schemes for the relief of unemployment outlined in the Budget, the schemes for the improvement of roads and for the assistance of public health works and for the execution of drainage schemes? We should either have to forego these schemes altogether, or we would have to get the money in some other form of taxation which would be much more detrimental to the interests and welfare of the community as a whole.

Every penny piece of this money is going to be spent on providing employment. It is going to be spent on permanent, health-giving, reproductive improvements of the national estate, and the issue which we have to weight up for ourselves is this, on which side does the balance of advantage lie? —allowing it to remain in the hands of a comparatively small class, because, as I shall show later, the great bulk of the middle-class taxpayers will be better off under this scheme than they were under the income tax proposals of the late Government—allowing it to remain in the hands of the select few to be spent mainly on imported luxuries. Now, I do not want to say that every man is not entitled to enjoy, to the fullest, the amenities of life that his position, social or financial, will enable him to secure for himself, but I do say this, that when we are in the midst of a grave social crisis, as we now are, the people must come first, and the relief of the poverty of the many is a consideration to which any Christian Government must give precedence, rather than to the maintenance of the luxury of the few.

Surely the Minister is speaking on Resolution No. 2.

No, I am not. They are related to each other, and I hope that, after the prolonged discussion we have had on income tax, we are not going to have a repetition of it on the sur-tax motion, because everything that could possibly be said, in relation to sur-tax, has already been said by the Deputies opposite in relation to income tax.

Are we to understand that "the select few" refers to No. 2 Resolution, and not to Resolution No. 1?

Comparatively speaking the select few are covered by Resolutions 1 and 2, that is the select few whose contribution to the Exchequer will be increased under the well-considered scheme of reliefs and allowances which is put before the House in Resolution No. 3.

I do not understand that "comparatively speaking."

Deputy Cosgrave said that we had 1,300,000 people in gainful occupations in this country, and 80,000 unemployed. We have had 80,000 unemployed for, at least, the last four years. The figures which were withheld from the community, the figures gathered in the Census of 1926, indicate that we had 80,000 people unemployed then, and we have 80,000 unemployed to-day, and 80,000 people who, for four years, have been living in misery and starvation. This Budget is an attempt for the first time to relieve these people in their desperate plight. Deputy Cosgrave says that we cannot think of them—they have been starving for four years and they can continue starving for a little longer.

That is not a fact.

"Let us think," he said—and he begged the question—"of all those who are in gainful occupations." The income tax is not going to deprive a single man of employment. It may be made the excuse for reducing wages, as, apparently, it was in Cavan, but if we were to reduce the income tax by one shilling, do you think that that landed magnate, who took the opportunity to reduce the wages of his workers would increase those wages by one 6d. per week? We have heard a statement from Deputy Brasier about certain employers who have been driven by income tax to curtail employment.

Lord Barrymore.

Why was this necessary if these employers were business men? What sort of business men were they and what sort of business were they carrying on, that, in order to avenge themselves against the party in power, they had to curtail employment, curtail production and curtail their own incomes? I think it is time that business men of that type, who take that sort of short-sighted view of things, of biting off their own noses to spite their faces, followed some of the bankrupt landed magnates out of this country.

Income tax is a help to business.

Taxation is not a help to business, except in so far as it will contribute to the maintenance of stable conditions in this country, and in so far as it will create, among all sections of the people, a feeling of ease and security, and a perception that the Government is going to do its duty to them, as a whole, and is no longer going to be the instrument of the privileged few in this country. But if the people can see that there is going to be in this country not government for the classes but that there is going to be government for the people and that the people are going to have their interests apprehended by the Government, then taxation is a help to business, because it is going to produce those stable conditions in which, and only in which, business can flourish. Deputy Cosgrave spoke about the 80,000 unemployed and he made a most generous offer for Deputy Cosgrave. He said that we will have every assistance and co-operation from the Opposition in dealing with the unemployed. If Deputy Cosgrave was sincere in that offer, let him let this Resolution pass without a division, because it is designed to help us to deal with the problem of the unemployed. It is designed to help us to find a peaceful solution of that problem. If Deputy Cosgrave continues his bitter opposition to this Budget, which is the first real attempt to do anything for the unemployed, then we can understand what lies behind Deputy Cosgrave's offer of assistance. It is not to relieve the unemployed that he is ready to assist us but, if we would attempt to do so, to keep them down. Shoot the unemployed! That would be Deputy Cosgrave's solution, as I indicated in the debate on the Budget. He had already taken time by the forelock in that regard and provided himself for the new Government which he hoped to head after the General Election, with the necessary legal authority to enable him to keep down the unemployed as they are being kept down under many a dictatorship in other countries. The alternative, in the present circumstances, to an increase in the income tax is to put machine guns on the streets in order to keep back the unemployed. I hope that that position will pass. I am sure that it will pass if the Government is given an opportunity—an unobstructed opportunity—to get on with the constructive problem which it has in mind. When that position does pass and when we see that the necessities of the people have been relieved. I have no hesitation in saying that taxation will be reduced to the lowest level, compatible with the maintenance of a proper standard of life among all our people. We never intended that the 5s. income tax, or any other tax in the Budget, should be a permanent feature of the fiscal system of this country. If it were not for the fact that we were driven to it by the mess which the late Government left behind, that they left us no alternative but to face up to the situation and to have the courage, which they had not during their whole 10 years, to balance the Budget out of taxation and out of revenue—if it had not been for that, we would never have ventured to impose the heavy load of taxation which we have had to do in this Budget.

To leave that over for a moment, it is quite clear that many members of the Opposition do not really grasp what is meant by this Resolution. They are talking as though the 5/- rate would be universal, as if every taxpayer were suddenly to have his income tax increased by 1/6. That is very far from the truth. Deputy Cosgrave, apparently, is one of those who believe that. He said that the tax here has the same weight as the British tax. That is not true. On an income, mainly earned, of £800—that is not a small income here—a married couple with three children would only pay in tax £66 5s. here as against £68 2s. 6d. in Great Britain. If the income were derived from investments, they would have to pay only £93 15s. here as compared with £108 2s. 6d. in Great Britain. The more you study the scale, the more you realise that this tax has not the same weight as the British tax, and the more you realise how little they know about the matter which they are discussing who say that people will leave this country if the increase which we recommend is accepted by the House.

In that connection, there are one or two details which I should like to discuss. Deputy Thrift referred to the 3/- income tax as a war measure. I remember the days of the Great War, I remember how willingly not merely 3/- in the £, but 5/- in the £ was paid in order to sublimate national hatreds, to gratify national pride, to destroy life and property, and to loosen upon the earth every terror that human intellect, perverted from its true purpose, could devise. Income tax of 5/- was paid willingly in order that life and property might be destroyed, and the people who did that pretend to be aghast when income tax at the standard rate of 5/- is imposed in order that life and property in this country may be preserved. But, for the great majority of the people, there is no such thing as a 5/- income tax. In regard to the family which has an income of £800, if that income is all earned in this country, the effective rate of tax in respect of it is 1/7?— about 20 pence in the £ out of their £800. That is what the income tax on this scale amounts to. I am sure that such a contribution in the present circumstances is not too much to expect from a family that, all things considered, is comfortably circumstanced.

The Minister has completely missed the point which I made, which was the length of time for which this taxation had continued.

In that regard, there has been a complete change in the social outlook of all Governments since income tax was instituted. They have found that the imposition of income tax is a much better preventive of crime than hanging a starving man for stealing a sheep. Again, the pathetic case was made about the poor little business man whose profits were re-invested every year in his little business. Since the profits are derived from a business, the income of that little business man must be earned income, and he must be a little business man. We shall take a typical example of the man who was drawing last year, and we hope this year will draw, an income of £550 out of his little business. What is his position under our proposal, and what was his position under the system which we are amending? Last year, under Deputy Cosgrave's Government, that little business man, for whom Deputy Thrift was rightly concerned, would have paid on his income of £550, £15 15s. This year, under a Fianna Fáil Government, that little business man will only pay £11 5s., if he happens to be a married man with three children.

How much of the £550 can be put back into his business?

I do not know how much, but under a Fianna Fáil Government he will be able to put more back than he could have under a Cumann na nGaedheal Government. That is our justification for the proposal. Not only that, but if he is engaged in a manufacturing enterprise in this country, he will be able to cast his bread on the waters with the hope that it is going to come back to him a hundredfold. Again, we had Deputy Minch, whose concern, I think, was to direct this discussion towards the ordinary household. He talked about the difficulty of balancing the little home budgets. I am sorry he is not in the House, because I would have invited him, on the basis of his own speech, and in order that he should be consistent, and that he should give practical effect to his own words, to follow the Fianna Fáil Whips into the Division Lobby in favour of our proposal. In the case of the little farmer's household, with which Deputy Minch was so concerned, it is the normal and ordinary thing to find a large family. I am going to take a family that is possibly below the average; again a married couple with three children. I find that, whereas under Deputy Cosgrave's Government, if the total income of that family had been £400, they would have paid £3 18s. 9d., under the Fianna Fáil Government that family is going to be relieved of income tax altogether. If they had been paying income tax on a £450 income, under Deputy Cosgrave's Government his tax gatherers would have collected from the family £7 17s. 6d. Under this Government, that family will know the income tax gatherer no more, because there is a complete remission of tax in their case. The fact of the matter is that income tax is one of these things that it is very difficult to talk about unless you know a little about it. Most of the speeches we have heard in the debate would not have been made if the Deputies who made them had taken the trouble to study the whole of the income tax scheme which we have placed before the Dáil.

Now to revert to what I said, that it is not possible to consider our proposals without relating them to the circumstances in which they are made. We had either to reduce expenditure or we had to increase taxation, in order that we should balance the Budget. Deputy Cosgrave used to talk very eloquently about the advantages of a balanced Budget. He told us to-day of the evils which follow from an unbalanced Budget. He cited the case of Great Britain. I think he cited it in the absence of his colleague, Deputy McGilligan, who stated that this Budget was a mere imitation of the British Budget. Certainly, I am sure Deputy McGilligan could not consistently allow Deputy Cosgrave to quote the British position in this House as an example of the evils or of the advantages which ensue upon pursuing a certain fiscal policy. At any rate, he talked about the flight of capital in Great Britain, and asked what occasioned that flight. The feeling, he said, that the Budget was not balanced. What brought it back? The feeling that the Budget would be balanced and that economies would be undertaken. Deputy Cosgrave knows as well as I do that, for a considerable period of years, there have been grave doubts in the minds of well-informed sections of the community as to whether the Free State Budget has been truly balanced or not.

The Minister was not well-informed.

No one knows better than Deputy Cosgrave that, in the circumstances in which we took office, and in view of the constructive programme which we have in mind, it was essential that our Budget should be unchallengeable from that aspect. If there has been such a steep rise in the cost, why is it? Because the late Government, every year, failed to make the necessary provision, and we are now faced this year with the position in which every company or undertaking is placed, if it has for years been producing a balance sheet which is questionable, and which will not stand the closest investigation and examination. The auditors have been brought in. The position can no longer be concealed from the creditors, and there has to be a drastic revision of the whole financial position. Deputy Cosgrave said that when they were considering the Budget they were entitled to make governmental speculations. Why, all their Budgets were governmental speculations of the same sort that has brought down many a financial king in other countries. It does not matter whether you are playing with pretended match companies, whether you are dealing in forged bonds, or whether you are pretending to balance your Budget. Sooner or later you will be overtaken, the truth will out, and the truth has come out now. That is why after a decade of years in which a Government evaded its every obligation and every responsibility, you are faced with a steep rise in cost. We have had the courage to face this steep rise in cost, because we wish to ensure that when we do go to borrow, as we shall have to borrow for our constructional schemes, we shall present to those whom we are asking to underwrite our issues, a Budget in which neither they nor anyone else can pick holes.

I should like to ask the Minister a question. The Minister has told us that he anticipated a yield from this tax of £1,035,000.

The Minister rose to conclude.

I simply wish to ask a question. The Minister told us earlier, when he began his statement, that when he faced the deficiency in the estimated yield of proposed taxation and the expenditure that had to be met, he came to the conclusion that he had to find at least 3½ million pounds. The Minister is making provision, in this Budget, for the raising of extra taxation amounting to £3,950,250, an increase over the estimate he gave us of £450,250, or more than one-third of what he proposes to raise by these three extra sixpences.

What is the question?

The question is, is the Minister imposing in income tax £1,035,000, in circumstances in which he is raising £450,250 more than is necessary to balance his Budget according to his statement this evening?

The Deputy surely is under a misapprehension. To balance the normal Budget—

To balance the normal Budget with the £270,000 required for the increased provision for old age pensions, which not even the Deputy had the courage to vote against in the House, and the £20,000 for the Wounds Pension Bill that sum was required. The extra million is derived from abnormal taxation, or from abnormal sources, and it is being used mainly to finance works of a reproductive nature.

Does the Minister hold to his estimate of three and a half million pounds?

Speaking from memory, yes.

Would he speak from something else besides memory?

Question put: "That the Dáil agree with the Committee on Finance in the said Resolution."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 72; Níl, 51.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Boland, Patrick.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Bryan.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, William Frazer.
  • Carney, Frank.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Colbert, James.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Corry, Martin John.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Dowdall, Thomas P.
  • Everett, James.
  • Flinn, Hugo V.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Geoghegan, James.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Gormley, Francis.
  • Gorry, Patrick Joseph.
  • Golding, John.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hayes, Seán.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
  • Keyes, Raphael Patrick.
  • Kilroy, Michael.
  • Kissane, Eamonn.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • Lynch, James B.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moane, Edward.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Murphy, Patrick Stephen.
  • Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Kelly, Seán Thomas.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Reilly, Thomas J.
  • O'Rourke, Daniel.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sexton, Martin.
  • Sheehy, Timothy.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Francis C. (Dr.).

Níl

  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Beckett, James Walter.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Blythe, Ernest.
  • Bourke, Séamus A.
  • Brasier, Brooke.
  • Broderick, William Jos.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Byrne, John Joseph.
  • Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
  • Conlon, Martin.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Craig, Sir James.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Dockrell, Henry Morgan.
  • Doyle, Peadar Seán.
  • Duggan, Edmund John.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Grattan.
  • Finlay, Thomas A.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Good, John.
  • Gorey, Denis John.
  • Hassett, John J.
  • Hayes, Michael.
  • Hennessy, Thomas.
  • Hennigan, John.
  • Keating, John.
  • Keogh, Myles.
  • Kiersey, John.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • McDonogh, Fred.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Minch, Sydney B.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James Edward.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • O'Brien, Eugene P.
  • O'Connor, Batt.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Mahony, The.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Reynolds, Mrs. Mary.
  • Roddy, Martin.
  • Thrift, William Edward.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Boland and Allen; Níl: Deputies Duggan and Doyle.
Question declared carried.
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