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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 19 Oct 1932

Vol. 44 No. 1

Adjournment Debate. - Statement by President on London Conference.

When I last reported to the House on the matter of the dispute between Great Britain and ourselves on financial matters the position, Deputies will remember, was this: There were two directions in which it might be possible to find an amicable settlement. One was by way of arbitration. As regards arbitration, the British Government had signified its readiness to arbitrate on the question of the land annuities provided the Tribunal was of the character outlined in the 1930 Imperial Conference Report. They wanted to restrict the personnel of the Tribunal to persons who were citizens of the States of the British Commonwealth. They made that a matter of principle. We, on our side, could not admit any such restriction. It was no less a matter of principle with us that our nominees should be selected without restriction, that there should be no limitation of our choice. An amicable settlement by way of arbitration was, therefore, practically ruled out.

The remaining way was by negotiation. When I met Mr. MacDonald, just on the eve of the imposition of the special tariffs, I made it clear that we were prepared to seek a solution by way of negotiation, but urged that if negotiations were at all to be protracted, it was desirable that they should be carried on in an atmosphere of peace rather than in the atmosphere of hostility which would be undoubtedly begotten by the imposition of tariffs by them, and by the counter measures which we would necessarily have to take. The British Prime Minister agreed, provided that we handed over the annuities which, as you know, we had put to a Suspense Account. I pointed out that we could not do that, that the moneys were in the Suspense Account, and that they were immediately available the moment a settlement was arrived at. The conversations on that occasion resulted, as you know, in no agreement being reached, in the British imposing next day, or I think it was that night, their tariffs and later in our taking our counter measures.

The position remained like that for some time until some time during the recess a proposal was made to me that, as a difficulty had arisen with regard to the land annuities, we should be prepared to show our good faith by putting the disputed moneys in the Bank for International Settlements during the progress of the negotiations. I signified acceptance of that proposal and my acceptance was conveyed to the British Government. This happened whilst the Ottawa Conference was still going on. Nothing came of it, and on Mr. Thomas's return from Ottawa I brought officially to his notice that we had accepted that proposal. I got a reply indicating that the British would not accept the proposal. But there was, in a summary of the position, an indication that another way was still left open, namely that of negotiation directly on the basis of the present position without any preliminary tariff truce. In order that no way of trying to secure an amicable settlement should be left unexplored I consented to negotiation on that basis. That was about the time I was going to Geneva. When in Geneva I was informed that the British Government was prepared to enter into negotiations on that basis and the suggestion was made that I might avail of the opportunity which would be afforded by my passing through London on my return to have a preliminary conference with British Ministers. That conference, as you are aware I am sure, was held and it was decided that representatives of the two Governments should meet in London if possible on the 14th October, "in order to see whether it is possible to arrive at a comprehensive settlement of the future financial relations between the Irish Free State and the United Kingdom."

Are these the terms of reference from which the President is reading?

That was the basis of the negotiations.

Would the President mind reading it again?

"In order to see whether it is possible to arrive at a comprehensive settlement of the future financial relations between the Irish Free State and the United Kingdom." I promised also to let the British Government have a memorandum indicating the basis of our claims to withhold the payments that had been made up to that time. We prepared that memorandum and it was handed in just before the negotiations, I think, the day before the negotiations began. As the purpose of the negotiations was, as I have indicated, "to see whether it was possible to arrive at a comprehensive settlement of the future financial relations between the Irish Free State and the United Kingdom," we put forward the claims that would be put forward, and should be put forward, whenever there was a question of what might be called an ultimate financial settlement between the two countries. Both of these memoranda were discussed in detail at the conference. Both sides argued on the various items and the discussion lasted, as you know, for a period of two days. In the afternoon of the second day, October 15, both sides admitted that there was no possibility of arriving at an agreement and that further negotiations were not likely to yield any fruit. It was agreed, therefore, that a public statement to that effect should be issued, and that our memoranda and the British replies to them, which were also to be in the form of memoranda: that these four documents, together with our final reply, should be published as a White Paper to both Parliaments, our reply to come roughly within a week or so.

So far as the negotiations themselves were concerned—the discussions —my view is that they could hardly be called negotiations at all; that they were really discussions, and that negotiations, in the proper sense, could hardly be applied to them. They served one purpose which was to show to each side what the other point of view was if that had not been known already, and they confirmed us in the belief that the British Government are not prepared, the present British Government at any rate, to admit the claims of this country to simple justice. It is possible that if we were prepared, as they seemed to wish, to go in the role of beggars, hat in hand, asking for consideration and charity there might be a disposition to make minor modifications and some mitigation of their claim, but simple justice they were not prepared to concede. They took their stand on the supposed inviolability of the secret documents of 1923 and 1926, and they refused to budge from that position.

There is one matter perhaps that I should refer to so as to avoid misunderstanding of a passage in Mr. Thomas's statement in the British House of Commons yesterday. I want to say that the Conference dealt solely with financial matters, but the British Government were aware that arising out of the position created by the Treaty this Government had assumed office as the Government of one of the States of the British Commonwealth, and that we were bound by pledges which precluded secession without an express mandate from the electorate. I have come to the conclusion that the present British Government, pressed forward as it is by certain anti-Irish feeling in Britain and supported by the attitude of a minority in this country, is not prepared to examine this position on its merits or to yield to claims of simple justice. Whilst they are playing the part of Shylock as regards this country, they are pleading as petitioners with the United States, and they are playing the rôle of Lady Bountiful on the Continent. They are petitioning for relief themselves of debts which nobody denies are morally and legally due. They recognise that on the Continent—the whole world recognises—if there is to be a restoration of economic life in the world at all these huge inter-Governmental payments must cease. We are not prepared at any rate to bind our people, to commit them to the continued payment of these huge sums which have been extracted in the past. We are not prepared to put the future of our country in pawn in that respect. We believe that these payments are neither legally nor morally due and in that belief we propose to defend our rights. I have never denied that the tariff war, which is evidently going to continue, is bound to impose considerable hardships on our people, but I believe that the re-ordering of our economic life which the necessity for meeting this war is going to bring about, will in the long run relieve us from the position of dangerous dependence in which we have been in the past, a dependence on the British market which was the result of British dominance in the past, a position which the British now think Britain can use to compel us, or try to compel us, to bow to her will. This Government at any rate does not propose to bow to her will. We propose to defend our rights and to make the economic adjustments which may be necessary.

I do not think there is any particular point in going further into the matter. The White Papers will be before the House in a short time. The arguments on both sides will be before Deputies and when that information is available, if members on the opposite side wish to discuss the matter further I am perfectly certain that an occasion for doing so will be found. I simply want to repeat that we do not propose to surrender our just claims in this regard. The position is as it was, and I think the country will be the better for a realisation of what I think has all the time been the fact that the British, under the present conditions, are not prepared to deal with this case justly.

Would the President answer a question or two? Does he find any fault with the statement made to the British House of Commons yesterday as to the details of the case that was supposed to have been presented by the Irish delegation? To be more specific: Is it a fact that a claim was made for some three or four hundred million pounds for the over-taxation of this country in the past?

Is it a fact also that claims were made in this way: Of what was described as an unspecified amount arising from Britain going off the Gold Standard? Was that claim put up?

It is correct to say that every claim that it would be right to bring forward, if there was going to be a final adjustment of the financial relations between the two countries, was brought forward.

Our opinion was that that final adjustment, which was provided for in the Treaty, was being undertaken, and that the ultimate financial settlement was really at that time being gone into. Every claim that Ireland would be entitled to put forward under these circumstances was put forward, including the claim for over-taxation in the past, which was a claim provided for by the Treaty as a counter-claim or set-off to the British claim with regard to our liability for any part of the National Debt. It is also true that we put forward a claim in regard to the damage suffered by our people by Britain's going off the Gold Standard, in the same way as other Governments have made representations to Britain and as, I think, Britain herself made representations to France on a previous occasion on a similar basis.

A serious claim for £400,000,000 was put up on account of over taxation in the past and a serious claim was put forward for an unspecified amount arising out of Britain going off the Gold Standard?

As serious a claim as Britain's claim that we should bear portion of the British debt. The British debt represents the accumulation of a number of years. Why should not our claim over a number of years also be put forward?

In order that we may get the blame properly apportioned in these matters, would the President say if he put forward that claim or if it was put forward by the Minister for Finance?

It was put forward by the Government.

Is it in order for a Deputy to have to undergo this cross-examination? I submit that this debate should proceed by speech.

In the absence of the White Paper? When are we going to get it?

If the President is not prepared to answer questions, we shall have to exhaust all the possibilities and probabilities in the course of the debate.

As a matter of fact, I do not object to answering questions. It may not be the proper way of conducting a discussion, but I have nothing whatever to fear from any questions that are put. If there are any questions which I regard as impertinent, I shall refuse to answer them.

We were informed that the speech to-night would last for half an hour. I should say that at least half the time devoted to it now was taken up with a recital of the various events that led up to the negotiations. In the course of the latter part of his speech, the President said that there were certain documents contained in a White Paper which would be shortly issued. When is it proposed to issue the White Paper?

I think I indicated that already—in the course of a week or two.

Surely it is not contended that we can debate this question in the absence of the information contained in those documents. Surely a speech of ten minutes in describing what I presume was described in another place and—according to the answers given just now to Deputy McGilligan—accurately described, does not provide adequate information for discussion. One other point arises out of the speech to which we have just listened. There was a statement to the effect that the President had come to the conclusion that the present British Government was pressed by anti-Irish feeling in England, supported by the minority in this country. What exactly is the meaning of "the minority in this country?"

With regard to the first point, if Deputy Cosgrave desires to have the debate postponed, I am quite willing. The Government arranged for this time so that there might be no sense of grievance on the other side and no feeling that we tried to preclude any sort of discussion on this question at this particular time. I am quite willing to admit that this discussion can best take place when the White Paper is circulated. That would be, I think, the natural course. Our desire simply was not to give any opportunity to anybody to feel that we were precluding discussion at this stage. We are not. We are giving all the information that is essential for an understanding of the situation as it exists. With regard to the second point, a minority is a minority, and those whom the cap fits can wear it. (Applause.)

Twice during the last Session I had to call the attention of Deputies to the fact that they are responsible for the conduct of visitors to whom they issue tickets.

It is time you said so, a Chinn Comhairle.

If Deputies do not take steps to see that visitors in the Gallery do not interfere with the business of this House, drastic measures will be taken.

I do not know whether or not the last statement the President has made is intended to be offensive. There is a great deal of silence about that. We have at least an advantage over the opposite side nationally and genealogically. There is a majority here and in our support throughout the country there is a majority. It is nothing short of a slander to suggest here that a minority in this country is against a settlement. There is no such minority. Not even the Die-hards of this country are against a settlement. Some of them have much more Irish blood than there is in the Front Bench opposite. They are just as good nationals as those on the opposite side even though, at the moment, they have a greater respect for the Government on the other side. Their whole lives have been spent here and their wealth has been spent here. They are citizens and they are entitled to a citizen's rights. I deprecate very strongly any statement such as has been made here. It is a gratuitous insult to people who cannot defend themselves. I hold no brief for them, but they are citizens and I have always followed and accepted as the true teaching the words of Davis and Griffith in regard to all the citizens of the country.

This debate cannot go on. It would be a farce if it went on in the absence of the White Paper. We want to know all the circumstances. We are not in the position that the present Government was in when in Opposition— opposing everything simply for the purpose of showing their originality or indulging in nonsense. There is nothing to discuss here. There is something to discuss outside with the people owing to the serious economic situation that exists. Unemployment is growing, markets are diminishing and the opportunities for getting Imperial Preference are disappearing. These are the things that we want to discuss in the cold light of the full facts. It is ridiculous to bring us here for a few hours' discussion in the absence of necessary information.

Mr. Thomas, in concluding his remarks in the British House of Commons, left the impression in the public mind that the Irish delegation had raised the question of an Irish Republic in association with the British Commonwealth of Nations as a relevant question at the negotiations which were proceeding in England. Did President de Valera and his delegation raise that question as an issue at those negotiations?

I have already given the basis on which the negotiations were held. I have already pointed out that Mr. Thomas in suggesting that we raised that question as a relevant issue was wrong, that we did not raise it as a relevant issue. My own personal attitude was known to the British Government long before that. My attitude in private was the attitude I have maintained in public. There is no secrecy whatever about it. If he wished to have that in the background, he could. In answer to Deputy Dillon's question, I obviously did not raise that as it was not pertinent to the negotiations.

Therefore, the implication conveyed by Mr. Thomas's words is not true?

Is not correct.

Did that question arise, whether raised by the President or not?

I think I have given an answer now sufficiently explicit for anybody. Anybody who is not prepared to take the answer I have given is not going to get anything further.

Then it did arise?

The President will believe that I raised that question for no purpose of embarrassing the Government here. I raised it simply to afford the President an opportunity of telling the Irish people exactly what happened, so that they would not have to depend exclusively on the statement of a British Minister. If he can elaborate or explain it to any Irish citizen, surely he will take this opportunity of doing so?

In order to anticipate any such questions, and because I believed that that statement might give rise to a misunderstanding, I went to the trouble of writing this part and what I said to the House was: To avoid misunderstanding of a passage of Mr. Thomas's statement in the British House of Commons yesterday I should say that the Conference dealt solely with financial matters. The British Government was aware that arising out of the position created by the Treaty this Government had assumed office as the Government of one of the States of the British Commonwealth and that we were bound by pledges which preclude secession without an express mandate from the electorate. Is that definite and explicit enough?

Provided the President is prepared to say that the clear implication of Mr. Thomas's words is not correct.

I have said already that what I take it is the clear implication that Deputy Dillon has in mind —and I agree in what Deputy Dillon calls the clear implication of Mr. Thomas's speech, as I understand it— is not correct.

I accept that.

Might I put to the President of the Executive Council a question? Might I ask if the attack made by the Irish delegation on the, rightly or wrongly, so-called secret agreement proceeded on the basis that a gigantic swindle had been carried out by the British Government and the Cosgrave Government in collusion at the expense of the Irish taxpayer, and that, in fact, Deputy Cosgrave and his colleagues had acted very much as the late lamented Leonard McNally, alluded to by the Minister for Finance, and if that was the basis on which the attack on those agreements proceeded? Does the President of the Executive Council think that such an attack held out any hope of agreement with the British?

The Deputy who has just spoken is not going to outline for us our line. Our line was taken and it will appear on the White Paper, and then if the Deputy wishes to misconstrue it in any way he chooses he can do so.

I submit, sir, that it is utterly uncalled for for the President of the Executive Council to charge me or anybody else with a desire to misconstrue him.

I should like to know from the President whether this White Paper will contain the 1923 secret agreement and all the documents that passed between the late Government and the British Government in connection with the 1923 secret agreement. I think it is about time that these secret agreements were discussed by this House after ten years. Let us have the whole thing out.

I may say that that White Paper will be confined to five documents, the two memoranda submitted by us, the two memoranda in reply by the British Government, and our final reply.

If those people have anything to hide now they had better come out with it.

The Dáil adjourned at 8.35 p.m. until Thursday, 20th October, at 3 p.m.

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